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[jufonuk]

i dont even know what the fuck this guy is talking about

kinda this, as you do have to memorize in fighting games. plus nearly every game you play has some form of memorization you could argue.

anyways:

SFIV and tatsunoko for example:
all the special moves, super moves
all the combos and super combos
baroques and focus attacks

then the Virtua Fighter series
err you could spend a lifetime just learning all Akira's move set and uses

most fighing games include a training mode to help you learn all this.

Yeah, I think my point didn't come across due to poor wording. :lol

What I mean is, people like to argue that fighting games are just all about memorization, and solely just about that. They never consider the positioning of the characters, the difference of attack priorities, etc. And that memorization, in the long run, isn't really that much.

ahh ok well I think you do need to have some form of memorization like a foundation to build upon, to help you more with what you said above. err it I haven't had much sleep sorry about the rubbish reply.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

One sentence?

A haiku, even.

Special moves with B;
combine with stick directions
or use it alone.

 

[eggandI]

In SF4 you can lose most of your life bar if you miss a single link on a combo. It's hilarious watching someone go from grinning like an idiot to wanting to punch the other guy's face in.. all in a couple of seconds. I had a lot of fun with SF4, it's a great "revival" but the intermediate-high level play is pretty ridiculous. And the poster who said defense >>>> offense in SF4 is completely right. Doesn't help that you have such 1 dimensional characters like Blanka/Balrog/Zangief/etc. In this aspect, 2D fighting games can be extremely boring and 3D fgs are a breath of fresh air.

I'm definitely getting SSF4 because of all the new characters, wouldn't bother if it was just a gameplay mechanics upgrade.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

ya both of those things would be the exceptions. but smash without either would essentially be the same. a deep yet highly accessible fighter that takes a long time to master, but is most quickly mastered through purely playing opponents rather than a heavy mixture of training mode type stuff, and playing opponents.

Since when was training mode a requirement to be good at Street Fighter, or any other fighter, unless it is smash? Explain all of these great Japanese/American players that got where they are by actually playing other people in arcades? Not every top player grinds 1 frame links for 8 hours straight in training mode like Wong admits. He just does both and dominates the US lol.

 

[remz]

ya both of those things would be the exceptions. but smash without either would essentially be the same. a deep yet highly accessible fighter that takes a long time to master, but is most quickly mastered through purely playing opponents rather than a heavy mixture of training mode type stuff, and playing opponents.

I don't see the big difference between smash memorization and SF memorization.

Training mode is basically useless too, experiance in there is pointless compared to experience in a real fight.

 

[riskVSreward]

Why is this such a hot button issue for some people? Most fighting games have moves that require moving the stick a specific way and pressing a specific button. If that's too much for you, don't play those games. If you're sitting here wishing that every fighting game played like Smash, go play Smash, it already exists. If the next Street Fighter were to control exactly like Smash, it would no longer be Street Fighter and quite frankly it would suck. There's a reason why each move is performed the way it is, and even if it wasn't originally intended by the developer, it is what it is. Many of us like them the way they are, if you don't, go play Smash or don't play fighters.

 

[Yoboman]

Rote learning is acquired through memorization, just because you can pull it off without thinking now doesn't mean it didn't require repetition and memorization to begin with.

 

[blackadde]

In SF4 you can lose most of your life bar if you miss a single link on a combo. It's hilarious watching someone go from grinning like an idiot to wanting to punch the other guy's face in.. all in a couple of seconds. I had a lot of fun with SF4, it's a great "revival" but the intermediate-high level play is pretty ridiculous. And the poster who said defense >>>> offense in SF4 is completely right. Doesn't help that you have such 1 dimensional characters like Blanka/Balrog/Zangief/etc. In this aspect, 2D fighting games can be extremely boring and 3D fgs are a breath of fresh air.

I'm definitely getting SSF4 because of all the new characters, wouldn't bother if it was just a gameplay mechanics upgrade.

of all the characters in the game to call one-dimensional, zangief is probably the single worst pick.

 

[remz]

Rote learning is acquired through memorization, just because you can pull it off without thinking now doesn't mean it didn't require repetition and memorization to begin with.

That's like any game though.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

A haiku, even.

Special moves with B;
combine with stick directions
or use it alone.

So your smash fights amount to spamming MK's tornado and projectiles?

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

Rote learning is acquired through memorization, just because you can pull it off without thinking now doesn't mean it didn't require repetition and memorization to begin with.

Anything you do in life requires some form of memorization... including all games. Not just fighters.

I really want to drink a coke right now, but the barrier of entry is just too high. I have to remember all of these crazy finger movements to open the can. And then there is the whole swallowing part. I give up.

 

[danmaku]

Funny you should mention that, because Chess has a very simple moveset, about the same as the earliest fighting games.

As far as I can figure, there are 10 distinct moves to remember in Chess:

Pawn move, Pawn double opening move, Pawn capture move, Knight movement, Bishop movement, Rook movement, Queen movement, King movement (all non-pawns capture the same as they move), Castle, and en-passant capture. Memorizing the game's entire moveset takes a couple minutes, and beyond that, it's all about the application of that simple set of moves.

Compare that with the move list of the average Soul Calibur character and I think you see where the complaints come from. While I agree with the OP that many of the 2d fighting games do indeed offer simpler movesets and tend more toward strategic/tactical application gameplay, they too have become more complex over the years.

But chess still requires A LOT of memorization if you want to play well. I'm talking about standard strategies, openings, etc.
I can barely play chess, but I play go and that game has a moveset that's even simpler than chess (there's only 1 piece!) and it requires a lot of study if you want to become good. Hell, they even tell you to memorize entire games from start to end because it improves your play. I think every game, when played at high level, will require study and memory, there's no escape.

The key is, find the right opponent. If you wanna play a fighting game and you think you can't learn all the moves, don't do it. Play with other beginners and have fun, they won't be able to pull off all the moves, just like you. There's a barrier only if you are a jerk that wants to pick up the game and be good from the get go. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.

 

[Red Scarlet]

I'd hate to play a fighting game where each character has the exact same motions. Just having different ways to do moves (rolls vs charges) makes characters more unique and have varying strengths and weaknesses depending on their movesets.

vks: Shoryukens are almost 20 years old now, you should figure out what they are sometime.

 

[Killa Sasa]

I find SF4 a lot easier to be offensive in actually. Try doing a 3 hit combo in an SFII game and see how much harder it is. :lol Much tighter execution windows in those games.

As for the topic, I think Oichi covered it pretty well already. Muscle memory is a type of memorization isn't it, too? There's too much room for semantics, you can bend this argument anyway you want really. Mario takes memorization too. Smash Bros does. Racing games do. I can't think of a game that doesn't use some sort of memorization. Part of the fun in fighting games IMO is learning how to do some stuff you can't do initially. Where is the reward if none of it comes down to execution except at the simplest degree? Imagine, for example, if someone like Sagat in SF4 was as easy to pilot as the best players make him look? His strengths become even more pronounced and everyone flocks to him because his huge combos are easy to pull, and the riskier ones that give him big advantages if you can do em perfectly are easy as well. At this point, there's no reason to not to use him. And he's probably the worst "best fighter" ever. Motions are partly there to keep the broke from getting broker. These are competitive games as well; while the casual player base is larger, companies would be stupid to ignore the people who play their games the most.

The only large scale memorization that is actually grating is dial a combo, and even that was fun in its own way. Diff'rent strokes (I like me some Fulgore ).

And practicing does indeed equal memorization. How is it practice if you do something once? If you do it more than once, I would argue that you're doing it so you can whip it out later because you have it memorized.

Semantics are a stupid thing

BTW, there's room for tons of fighting games. I play SF4 the most, but I played the hell outta Brawl, Melee, VF4, SC2-4, TvC, and others. Some at a higher level, some at a lower. And guess what? They're all fun. It comes down to your personal taste, guys - some people will like stuff that you don't. No need to change an existing franchise that hasn't proven stale when it still has an extremely viable player base.

And if you're playing it at a casual level, all of these mean nothing. Play the game, play one that has more suitable mechanics for you or play a different type of game altogether. Why force yourself to play something where one of the pillars is something you detest? Otherwise, put in the time like everybody else does/did. Everyone who plays games took their lumps at some point in time, one way or another.

(this post isn't towards anyone in particular, just have seen these threads a lot lately)

 

[-COOLIO-]

Since when was training mode a requirement to be good at Street Fighter, or any other fighter, unless it is smash? Explain all of these great Japanese players that got where they are by actually playing other people in arcades? Not every top player grinds 1 frame links for 8 hours like Wong has admits. He just does both and dominants the US lol.

i feel this should be obvious

1. top japanese players are already familiar with street fighter and it's mechanics, they have been for years. a lot of what they know, transfers over

2. if they had training rooms in arcade machines, im sure theyd use it, in it's place, im sure that they took the time to intimately understand certain combos by using them as much as possible in fights.

it's like learning to bat via playing the game or using a batting cage. the batting cage is preferable but you will eventually learn in game.

though batting isnt a perfect comparison since it takes talent, timing, reflexes, and dexterity, whereas the aspects of fighting games that i personally dont enjoy, dont seem to, but rather demand pure repetition.

but i realize that a lot of people like this, and that even at a high level it prevents pros from executing perfectly every time to make things interesting.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I don't see the big difference between smash memorization and SF memorization.

Training mode is basically useless too, experiance in there is pointless compared to experience in a real fight.

im kind of using 'training mode' as a euphemism for move grinding.

 

[riskVSreward]

As for the topic, I think Oichi covered it pretty well already. Muscle memory is a type of memorization isn't it, too? There's too much room for semantics, you can bend this argument anyway you want really. Mario takes memorization too. Smash Bros does. Racing games do. I can't think of a game that doesn't use some sort of memorization. Part of the fun in fighting games IMO is learning how to do some stuff you can't do initially. Where is the reward if none of it comes down to execution except at the simplest degree? Imagine, for example, if someone like Sagat in SF4 was as easy to pilot as the best players make him look? His strengths become even more pronounced and everyone flocks to him because his huge combos are easy to pull, and the riskier ones that give him big advantages if you can do em perfectly are easy as well. At this point, there's no reason to not to use him. And he's probably the worst "best fighter" ever. Motions are partly there to keep the broke from getting broker. These are competitive games as well; while the casual player base is larger, companies would be stupid to ignore the people who play their games the most.

Just wait until someone posits that pros can do every move without fail at all times. The people who are in favor of oversimplifying controls believe that pros have a 0% chance of failure. "How can movements be a way to control risk if you can practice to the point of never failing?"

And if you're playing it at a casual level, all of these mean nothing. Play the game, play one that has more suitable mechanics for you or play a different type of game altogether. Why force yourself to play something where one of the pillars is something you detest? Otherwise, put in the time like everybody else does/did. Everyone who plays games took their lumps at some point in time, one way or another.

"That isn't good enough I'm afraid, instead of picking one game I favor, I'd rather every other game control exactly the same."

Seriously: Good post.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

i feel this should be obvious

1. top japanese players are already familiar with street fighter and it's mechanics, they have been for years. a lot of what they know, transfers over

2. if they had training rooms in arcade machines, im sure theyd use it, in it's place, im sure that they either took the time to intimately understand certain combos by using them as much as possible in fights.

it's like learning to bat via playing the game or using a batting cage. the batting cage is preferable but you will eventually learn in game.

So, what about the first time they stepped into an arcade and had no clue of Street Fighter's mechanics? How did they become good? Or are Japanese babies born with a Pro Fighting Game Player gene? I want to be Japanese I guess.

though batting isnt a perfect comparison since it takes talent, timing, reflexes, and dexterity, whereas the aspects of fighting games that i personally dont enjoy, dont seem to, but rather demand pure repetition.

You're making no fucking sense here. Sorry, I don't even know where to begin. Fighting games take everything you mentioned here. Talent, timing, reflexes, and dexterity are big part of fighting games. Some of these skills require some repetition to learn. Just like your example of batting takes repetition to learn. What the hell are baseball players doing at practice?

but i realize that a lot of people like this, and that even at a high level it prevents pros from executing perfectly every time to make things interesting.

Uh yeah, or something...

 

[mugwhump]

If there is no skill in the memorization of motions then your argument is pointless. I agree memorization takes no skill. It is easy. Knowing how to do something and actually doing it is different. In the case of fighters the memorization is the easy part. So why is this memorization such a huge barrier again? Shouldn't you be arguing about the dexterity requirement instead? Eh, I'm still not really sure where you're going with this argument.

Memorizing shit in games like blazblue and SC doesn't require SKILL, it requires WORK. That part of the game just isn't very fun. :/

Of course all games require memorization. But in a lot of fighters, the memorization is completely unintuitive and a huge pain in the ass.

 

[-COOLIO-]

So, what about the first time they stepped into an arcade and had no clue of Street Fighter's mechanics? How did they become good? Or are Japanese babies born with a Pro Fighting Game Player gene? I want to be Japanese I guess.



You're making no fucking sense here. Sorry, I don't even know where to begin. Fighting games take everything you mentioned here. Talent, timing, reflexes, and dexterity are big part of fighting games. Some of these skills require some repetition to learn. Just like example of batting takes repetition to learn. What the hell are baseball players doing at practice?



Uh yeah, or something...

1. see point 2 in the post you quoted post

2. fighting games in general do take those things. the aspects about them i dislike, dont.

 

[riskVSreward]

Memorizing shit in games like blazblue and SC doesn't require SKILL, it requires WORK. That part of the game just isn't very fun. :/

That isn't fun for you. Clearly there are plenty of people who consider it fun. BlazBlue is an execution heavy game, it caters to people who enjoy difficult execution in their fighters. I honestly don't see how the hell you can equate Soul Calibur to BB in terms of execution.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

1. see point 2 in the post you quoted post

2. fighting games in general do take those things. the aspects about them i dislike, dont.

Point 2 makes no sense either. Of course they learned using the combos with repetition. And I'm sure if arcades had training mode they would use it, but they don't... so wtf is your point?

Again, I take it you hate baseball and all sports because they require repetition (i.e PRACTICE) to be good at? Shit, almost anything competitive requires repetition if you want to be good. None of your argument makes any fucking sense.

I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!

 

[NIN90]

Hey guise it's coolio. He gotsa clock on his head. ^_^

 

[-COOLIO-]

Didn't you learn anything the last time there was a thread like this?

plenty. i understand why a lot of things in fighting games are the way they are...

Point 2 makes no sense either. Of course they learned using the combos with repetition. And I'm sure if arcades had training mode they would use it, but they don't... so wtf is your point?

Again, I take it you hate baseball and all sports because they require repetition (i.e PRACTICE) to be good at? Shit, almost anything competitive requires repetition if you want to be good. None of your argument makes any fucking sense.

I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!

...i also learned that arguing with enthusiasts is kind of retarded.

pce

 

[Killa Sasa]

Memorizing shit in games like blazblue and SC doesn't require SKILL, it requires WORK. That part of the game just isn't very fun. :/

But in a lot of fighters, the memorization is completely unintuitive and a huge pain in the ass.

I think this is where the big disconnect is for people - I think that's part of the fun for me. Hell yes learning how to play Blazblue is work. It's an Arc Systems game :lol I can respect that viewpoint. But I am of the opinion that the game wasn't supposed to be easy to pick up in the first case. There's only 12 characters in the game IIRC - I see it as one of those games where you're supposed to eventually master your one character, which will take time, practice and memorization anyways.

SC however I see as much closer to Checkers than Chess - it's not too heavy on the execution/higher amounts of memorization unless your playing a stance character IMO. Basic gameplay in SC is rock paper scissors to me - horiz beats sidestep, vert beats horiz, and sidestep beats vert. Then you throw in your variables like kicks, blocks, grabs and specials, and you have a really fun and easy to pick up fighter that still has a lot of depth. I like SC a lot because I find that its less dependent on complete mastery like VF or BB (which I still like even though I suck at it) - in SC, I think shenanigans work pretty well, and thats one of the traits that make Street Fighter, my favorite fighting game, so fun.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

Memorizing shit in games like blazblue and SC doesn't require SKILL, it requires WORK. That part of the game just isn't very fun. :/

Of course all games require memorization. But in a lot of fighters, the memorization is completely unintuitive and a huge pain in the ass.

I find BlazBlue to be very fun. I had no clue I was having fun doing work all of this time. That sucks or something I guess.

 

[riskVSreward]

plenty. i understand why a lot of things in fighting games are the way they are...



...i also learned that arguing with enthusiasts is kind of retarded.

pce

Ok, just walk out now so the next time this comes up you can feign ignorance all over again.

 

[arstal]

I'd hate to play a fighting game where each character has the exact same motions. Just having different ways to do moves (rolls vs charges) makes characters more unique and have varying strengths and weaknesses depending on their movesets.

vks: Shoryukens are almost 20 years old now, you should figure out what they are sometime.

I don't think anyone is saying all chars should have identical motions for everything.

I know what I'm saying is that you shouldn't have stupid motions, or have combos/links that are harder then they need to be.

For Example: one very famous SNK character's iconic super is done down-back, half-circle back, down-forward as a motion. Later games changed it to a forward,half-circle forward motion. A few people cried, but mostly for nostalgia's sake.

I even think the 360 should go, though it was made much easier in 3S and SF4. Half-circles or evven f,hcf/ b,hcb like how SNK does it would work just as well.


Also, Blazblue made some things much easier to pick up then Guilty Gear. If anything, I'd say Blazblue is easier to learn then SF4 in some regards.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

So your smash fights amount to spamming MK's tornado and projectiles?

Certainly there are other actions, but whether it's Smash or Street Fighter I think it's a pretty clear separation between "special moves" and the likes of "jump" and "block". But as a new player it's more rewarding to immediately be able to pull such moves than to be wondering which of the various charges, semi-circular motions, and button combinations would cause the same effect.

 

[mugwhump]

That isn't fun for you. Clearly there are plenty of people who consider it fun.

Judging from the first 2 pages of this thread, it's clear that it drives a lot of people away from the genre. If devs made a concentrated effort to reduce memorization in their fighters, it's not like hardcore fighting game fans would be driven away (see: TvC, SSBM). Don't you want more people enjoying the games you love?

I honestly don't see how the hell you can equate Soul Calibur to BB in terms of execution.

Not execution, memorization.

edit: eh I sound kind of extreme here. I know mastery of a complex system (even if much of that complexity is arbitrary) has its own appeal. Complicated movelists/combos will never go away completely (nor should they, I think), but it would be nice to see less of them.

 

[Tain]

i think fighting games are pretty great

i've noticed that most people that hate fighting games like a lot of really bad games like rpgs and shit

this is the most important post in this thread pretty much

 

[Tain]

Memorizing shit in games like blazblue and SC doesn't require SKILL, it requires WORK

Define skill please!

 

[mugwhump]

Define skill please!

my penis

 

[remz]

Also, Blazblue made some things much easier to pick up then Guilty Gear. If anything, I'd say Blazblue is easier to learn then SF4 in some regards.

Haha yeah, going back to GG after BB is pretty crazy. So much more execute-y

BB is basically guilty without all the inhuman complex shit IMO. FRCs, perfect frame stuff, etc.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

Define skill please!

His definition of skill is something he is good at without any time requirement involved. If he isn't immediately good at it it is no longer skill. It has now become work. And man, does work suck! Who likes work? No one. That's who.

 

[riskVSreward]

Judging from the first 2 pages of this thread, it's clear that it drives a lot of people away from the genre. If devs made a concentrated effort to reduce memorization in their fighters, it's not like hardcore fighting game fans would be driven away (see: TvC, SSBM). Don't you want more people enjoying the games you love?

Not if it comes at the expense of changing the games' fundamentals. I don't care who is playing or how many for that matter, I know that the people who are playing now, like me, can appreciate the games for what they are.

There's been a fighting game resurgence as of late, they aren't nearly as niche as they were say 5 years ago.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Certainly there are other actions, but whether it's Smash or Street Fighter I think it's a pretty clear separation between "special moves" and the likes of "jump" and "block". But as a new player it's more rewarding to immediately be able to pull such moves than to be wondering which of the various charges, semi-circular motions, and button combinations would cause the same effect.

You haven't played much SF if you think different inputs cause the same effect.

Or Smash if you think every special move can be applied the same way.

Point 2 makes no sense either. Of course they learned using the combos with repetition. And I'm sure if arcades had training mode they would use it, but they don't... so wtf is your point?

He means to say it's easier to learn Smash things on the fly with experience than with other fighters.

Again, I take it you hate baseball and all sports because they require repetition (i.e PRACTICE) to be good at? Shit, almost anything competitive requires repetition if you want to be good. None of your argument makes any fucking sense.

Well yeah. But Smash gets the execution barrier out of the way faster.


It doesn't mean you're at a competitive level. It just means you can do the pretty stuff on the screen faster.

 

[riskVSreward]

For Example: one very famous SNK character's iconic super is done down-back, half-circle back, down-forward as a motion. Later games changed it to a forward,half-circle forward motion. A few people cried, but mostly for nostalgia's sake.

I even think the 360 should go, though it was made much easier in 3S and SF4. Half-circles or evven f,hcf/ b,hcb like how SNK does it would work just as well.

You had to dig pretty deep into fighting game history to come up with the most esoteric "pretzel command" from SNK. As for your second point, you're starting to stray from what most detractors in here are trying to push; oversimplified controls across the board. I doubt they would stop at b, hcb if a damn dp is giving them so many problems.

Also, when they changed the pretzel command to a double qcf, they also changed the properties of the move. It wasn't nearly as buff as it once was.

 

[Teknopathetic]

All these people saying things like "it's just work!" or "it's an unnecessary barrier to entry" and so on, I have to ask:

What exactly is it a barrier of entry to?

High level play? Is that what you're trying to do? The fact is if you don't want to commit the time to learn to play a game at a certain level, you don't have to. Play with other people who feel like you, problem solved. Why do you feel like you need to master the game and furthermore why are you upset that you can't master a game in a few days?

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

He means to say it's easier to learn Smash things on the fly with experience than with other fighters.

Seems to me it sounds like he likes Smash more than Street Fighter. He should go play Smash then.

Well yeah. But Smash gets the execution barrier out of the way faster.

It doesn't mean you're at a competitive level. It just means you can do the pretty stuff on the screen faster.

That's great for Smash. Not every game has to be like Smash. I'm not in Smash threads wondering why it isn't more like Street Fighter or BlazBlue. People need to play what they enjoy and let it be at that. Not every game needs to be designed around them.

 

[Ezduo]

If fighting games don't require memorization then why the fuck do I keep losing at Dragon Ball Z Budokai 3? It's like, I'm punching the asshole and then he just teleports behind me and fucks me up something fierce and I'm like, "Dude what the fuck, how did you do that? Where's the god damn combo list?" and then I realized there wasn't a combo list so I just had to figure out which button combination's worked and then memorize them but I'm too lazy so I just said fuck the whole thing and played Team Fortress 2 instead but then I realized I suck at that game too so I came here to complain about it and those god damn snipers "good day mate" taunting shit.

Anyway, my point is that Majin Buu is full of shit and there's no way he should be able to beat Goku like he does, that shit ain't cannon man.

 

[riskVSreward]

That's great for Smash. Not every game has to be like Smash. I'm not in Smash threads wondering why it isn't more like Street Fighter or BlazBlue. People need to play what they enjoy and let it be at that. Not every game needs to be designed around them.

This is really all that needs to be said on the issue. It doesn't answer the psuedo-philanthropists who claim they want easier commands to broaden mass appeal though, as if they really give a shit about that.

 

[mugwhump]

His definition of skill is something he is good at without any time requirement involved. If he isn't immediately good at it it is no longer skill. It has now become work. And man, does work suck! Who likes work? No one. That's who.

You have a very annoying habit of making anyone who disagrees with you out to be some kind of incomprehensible retard or detestable scrub. Could you please stop?

Me, and many others, dislike reading big honking lists of moves and combos and trying to cram that info into our heads. You can argue it takes skill... just like any other activity under the sun. Cramming for a chem exam takes skill. But if most people get no enjoyment from exercising that skill.... would it really be absolutely unthinkable to consider that a flaw in the game's design?

Not if it comes at the expense of changing the games' fundamentals. I don't care who is playing or how many for that matter, I know that the people who are playing now, like me, can appreciate the games for what they are.

How about TvC? That doesn't need a huge amount of memorization, and the game hardly suffers for it. A step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Boss Doggie]

...wait a minute, did I just read that 2D fighting games have no high-mid-low, and have no mind games?

what?

EDIT: RE: simple moves. There have been many games with simple moves (e.g. Pocket Fighter) and they still work well. The problem is that they're not as mainstream as say, SF.

 

[NIN90]

OMG why can't I beat everyone after playing 20 minutes?

 

[hteng]

I don't get how people think SC's movelist is huge, the only character that has a huge list is IVY in which case is segregate into 3 stances, Wipe, Coil, Sword. Majority of characters have an acceptable list of moves and stances. To be honest SC has almost every kind of fighter,

you have the easy to pickup mid tier basic characters like Mitsurugi, Kilik
you have the very safe and fast characters like Amy, Cassandra,
you have the hit like truck grappler types like Asta, Rock
you have the stance dancing characters like Siegfried, Ivy, Maxi
you have the charged character like Hilde (she's god tier but hopefully she gets fix)
you have the ring out focus, techtrap heavy characters like Nightmare
you have the weird and strange like Voldo, Yoshimitsu, Lizard man
you have the just frame bitch like Setsuka (she's extremely good if you can do her justframes)
you have a fucking undead pirate too!

really, and you only need to know when to use their moves, not how as they are mostly easy to execute (direction + attack).

now look at Tekken5, look at the move list of each character, i use Lars since he's a new character and his list is less overwhelming that the old characters.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Why do you feel like you need to master the game and furthermore why are you upset that you can't master a game in a few days?

Because its a game, you want close to instant gratification.


Though it's already there. You have punches and kicks. Complaining about anything else is the same as complaining that you're not level 60 5 minutes into WoW.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

Because its a game, you want close to instant gratification.


Though it's already there. You have punches and kicks. Complaining about anything else is the same as complaining that you're not level 60 5 minutes into WoW.

People who want instant gratification in SFIV solved this debate long long ago. They picked Ken, learned one simple motion, and did it over and over and over again online. Looked to me like they were having fun.

 

[Brashnir]

I don't get how people think SC's movelist is huge, the only character that has a huge list is IVY in which case is segregate into 3 stances, Wipe, Coil, Sword. Majority of characters have an acceptable list of moves and stances. To be honest SC has almost every kind of fighter,

you have the easy to pickup mid tier basic characters like Mitsurugi, Kilik
you have the very safe and fast characters like Amy, Cassandra,
you have the hit like truck grappler types like Asta, Rock
you have the stance dancing characters like Siegfried, Ivy, Maxi
you have the charged character like Hilde (she's god tier but hopefully she gets fix)
you have the ring out focus, techtrap heavy characters like Nightmare
you have the weird and strange like Voldo, Yoshimitsu, Lizard man
you have the just frame bitch like Setsuka (she's extremely good if you can do her justframes)
you have a fucking undead pirate too!

really, and you only need to know when to use their moves, not how as they are mostly easy to execute (direction + attack).

now look at Tekken5, look at the move list of each character, i use Lars since he's a new character and his list is less overwhelming that the old characters.

I just checked a move list. I count 118 moves for "basic" character Mitsurugi. When 118 moves constitutes a "basic" character, I think the point of those who say there is too many is made.

 

[riskVSreward]

You have a very annoying habit of making anyone who disagrees with you out to be some kind of incomprehensible retard or detestable scrub. Could you please stop?

Me, and many others, dislike reading big honking lists of moves and combos and trying to cram that info into our heads. You can argue it takes skill... just like any other activity under the sun. Cramming for a chem exam takes skill. But if most people get no enjoyment from exercising that skill.... would it really be absolutely unthinkable to consider that a flaw in the game's design?

Again, you're stating that no one is having fun training/practicing/learning when that is clearly wrong.
Edit: Ok, you said most people not exactly "no one." But the point still stands... there are actually people out there who enjoy the process.

How about TvC? That doesn't need a huge amount of memorization, and the game hardly suffers for it. A step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned.

I've never played it, know nothing about it, and have no interest in it to be honest.