JoshuaJSlone
Member
Certainly that plays a role, but it's not like that's a key to instant major success. Nobody gets in arguments about whether the dectuple platinum Mario Pinball Land is a REAL pinball game.Oichi said:
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Why do people argue that fighting games have memorization?
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
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DryEyeRelief
Member
The_Technomancer said:
Don't take offense. I said to one guy earlier that it isn't a matter of swap out and instant perfection.
But relatively speaking, yeah they're similar experiences compared to switching fighters in other fighting games.
hitsugi
Member
why does this thread exist? how have you guys gone on for 6 pages when the answer is so obvious:
you must be the guy standing at the other end of the screen throwing fireballs for an entire match. the same motions carry over, sure.. the same combos or spacing, etc. not so much. you swear things like 1 frame combos or reflys in marvel, etc. just happen because you were so familiar with them back in SF2.
Ookami-kun said:
you must be the guy standing at the other end of the screen throwing fireballs for an entire match. the same motions carry over, sure.. the same combos or spacing, etc. not so much. you swear things like 1 frame combos or reflys in marvel, etc. just happen because you were so familiar with them back in SF2.
The Take Out Bandit said:Dammit GAF!
Why are you always late to my hate train?
Ah well, I know it's same as it always has been. Wait five years and GAF will catch up.
I don't hate Smash, but I'm not blind to the fact that out of the 5 million sales it got, maybe 100,000 of those bought it because of the gameplay, and 4.9 bought it because of the characters.
The_Technomancer said:
In every game, and in every sport, skill is not determined by knowing when to do something. It's a combination of knowing when to do it plus the ability to actually DO IT. If skill was only based on knowing when to do something, every armchair quarterback could win the superbowl, but because skill is a combination of both knowledge and execution, not everybody can get to the superbowl.
This is no different in anything that has any element of competitiveness to it, such as fighting games, RTS and FPS games. In fact, I'm going to show you an example of it from my own personal match in Virtua Fighter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AbEYblosN8#t=2m5s (skip to 2:05 if it doesn't do it automatically)
That combo in the last round there is a ring-out combo on that character, but hitting that combo required four things: knowing that my opponent was going to step back slightly at the beginning of the round, knowing my opponent's character is of a certain weight class that's light enough for that combo to carry (Virtua Fighter characters have different weights), the ABILITY to actually hit the combo perfectly (up until that match, I had never performed that combo correctly in an actual match), and knowing my opponent wouldn't make it out of the ring so I had to add that final kick to push him out.
There are four aspects to hitting that combo, but if I didn't have the execution and ability to actually perform it, all the knowledge in the world is fucking irrelevant. But that is why competitive games are the way they are, to separate the ones who want to win and the ones who just want to play.
I'll be the first to admit that fighting games, and competitive games are not for everyone. But like I said on page 2 of this god damn thread, the beauty of fighting games is that you don't need to memorize it if you have no desire to play at a high level.
BurritoBushido
Member
Don't you love it when people act like because something isn't so difficult for them, then it MUST BE THE CASE WITH EVERYONE.
HAY I CAN MAMORIZE THESE COMBOS JAST FINE. WHY DOES ANYONE THINK THIS IS HARD?!?!
Its almost as if people are all different, and have different skill sets, abillities, tastes, priorities.
What a magical world we live in.
HAY I CAN MAMORIZE THESE COMBOS JAST FINE. WHY DOES ANYONE THINK THIS IS HARD?!?!
Its almost as if people are all different, and have different skill sets, abillities, tastes, priorities.
What a magical world we live in.
BothBarsOn
Member
Fersis said:
Believe it or not, I wasn't! What I meant was that I never think of my actions in shooters (or whatever) as "Move left analogue stick, move right analogue stick, L1, R1, Circle, R2, move left analogue stick", etc, but that's the way I think in fighting games - they feel to me like a series of button pushes that I can't get right.
And, yes, I am ASTONISHINGLY bad at them.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Oichi said:
Okay, than we're approaching this from different directions. For me, a game like Madden exists to allow that armchair quarterback to express their intelligence about the game without having to train for years. And a fighting game, although far more unrealistic, is similar. A test of mental acuity. All games are. And to that end, I feel that the controls to a game should be as straightforward and accessible as possible, so that you can achieve a near one to one connection between what you want your character to do, and what your character actually does. That example near the end, three of those four points you make, I completely agree with. But once you know what you want your character to do, once you know its the correct strategic move, why should it be difficult to implement that? It reduces the game from a battle of wits to a battle of reflexes.
DryEyeRelief
Member
BurritoBushido said:
Don't you love it when people act like because something isn't so easy for them, then it MUST BE THE CASE WITH EVERYONE.
HAY I CAN'T MAMORIZE THESE COMBOS AT ALL. WHY DOES ANYONE THINK THIS IS EASY?!?!
Its almost as if people are all different, and have different skill sets, abillities, tastes, priorities.
What a magical world we live in.
WIN BUTTONThe_Technomancer said:
Guess what. Many games ARE battles of reflexes. Why else does Tetris keep ramping up speed as you play? Furthermore, any game that lets you do more things requires more complex input schemes. Once you introduce the crazy idea of chaining moves together, you now have a game that requires skill!
Edit: By the way, have you even played Madden?
You clearly are not good at FPS.Pandaman said:
Then again, neither am I... but at least I admit it and recognize that when I die it's my own damn fault.
If you don't hate, why you gotta keep hatin', brah?hater said:
There was a time I thought Smash sounded terrible, because it was just another fighting game. Then I was at a friend's house and he decided to rent Super Smash Bros. (the first one) on a whim. And we had so much fun I went out and bought it the next day. (Well, not literally - I was poor so I had to save up money!)
I bought it for the gameplay. The fan service is a nice bonus, but it's just that - fan service. It is separate from the gameplay. The people who KEEP playing don't care about the fan service.
I can't believe I'm the one who has to point this out. I fucking hate competitive gaming. Not least because a) I'm terrible and b) I hate losing.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Hitokage said:
No, but I play FIFA. Madden is just what sprung to mind. If you feel my use as an example doesn't hold up, the better question is, have you?
When I see Tetris speeding up, that means to me that now I have to start mentally processing my moves a lot faster. I'm not arguing for a moment that fighting games would be better turn based or anything, because its not just about outhinking your opponents, its about outhinking them fast. But I don't see a lot of thought in the actual execution of the complicated combo.
DryEyeRelief
Member
The_Technomancer said:
You mean dexterity. Better reflexes won't give you better execution.
As hitokage said, an input scheme that builds upon itself is naturally going to become more complex. But you don't have to learn it. Unless you want to compete with someone who does, but in that case you're asking not to work as hard.
To be fair, when you get good enough bullet spray distributions become less of an issue, but for a long time it feels like that scene in UHF where the guy is unloading an AK47 three feet away for the longest time then gets blown up with a single arrow.TheOneGuy said:
But hey, the point is to get better in the first place. Of course you're going to do terribly at first. What matters is that you manage your expectations and have fun.
That reminds me, in FPS games you have the learning curve of mouse/keyboard control, but once you have that down it translates into other games. Same with Street Fighter, really.
DryEyeRelief said:
I have no problem with things being hard. Some things should be hard. However, my issue is that some things are hard for no reason when they don't have to be
In a genre that is the hardest out there (in my eyes), adding more difficulty without a good reason is just flat-out dumb.
you clearly don't play good FPS. [/elitism]TheOneGuy said:
there are times in shooting games where you will be sniped.
that sniper is nestled between two of your spawn points, in the shadowy part of that corner window across the river. you could have a 50 meter screen running the game at 1,920,000x1,080,000 and you just wouldn't have seen him. it happens. the fault isn't on the person who was sniped. [well, i guess it depends if its a hitscan game or not, but even if its not...]
in that case you dont think 'well hey, i shouldn't have taken that corridor because there was a remote possibility sam fisher had snuck in and was camping there'. because if you did think like that you'd find a corner of your spawn point that's outside of any grenade bounces and never leave it.
instead you think, 'well fuck. guys there's a sniper, i was shot here[A], i think he's here, im respawning here[C]' and you then try to salvage the situation before your team takes a bigger hit.
the individual does factor in at some level of course, but there are many situations in fps' where you're just shit out of luck because something went wrong.
im pretty bad at FPS' games myself
but the point that pandaman makes is not about winning/losing. it's the clarity of understanding all circumstances that affect your performance. in an fps, your field of vision is limited to what your camera sees, which is entirely controlled by you. so it is very likely that someone outside your camera can, and will, shoot you. in a fighter, particularly 2d, the camera should always keep both characters on screen so you are aware of positioning and actions of both players at once. so yeah, you can be awesome at fps and headshot people left and right, but at the same time, someone behind you can just spray bullets and you will come out the victor but not unscathed.TheOneGuy said:
it simply is a different type of game and different mentality to playing. can't really compare apples to oranges.
So have I!Pandaman said:
Generally the idea is to control as much of that as possible. Yes, somebody can run up behind you, but that's exactly why you need to be observant and move through where it is advantageous to you. Learning the map is not optional.vgachi57 said:
But that's why he's wrong.vgachi57 said:
Because I always know why I die, and it's always because I was being too risky or simply didn't have good enough aim or wasn't using cover to my fullest advantage or wasn't scoping the situation before I moved or any number of things.
It doesn't matter if you can't always see everything. You have to take that into account while you're playing.
Oh, so you're one of those people.Pandaman said:
That doesn't even make sense.Pandaman said:
The goal of an FPS is not to survive. It is to win.
By that logic you should spend all your time playing on the defensive and never, ever attacking in a fighting game because it leaves you open.
you're looking at it from the overall outcome perspective. yes, you die. you can die in fighters too if you're too proactive or whatever. but what about individual hits? in 2d one-on-one fighters, there is no such thing as a stray fireball. if you get hit at all, you always know why and where it came from. can you make the same claim in an fps? yes, if you're good, you come out the victor. but in a single snapshot moment where you get hit, you have to have gotten hit to realize you need to move/duck/jump/turn around. it's not like you saw the bullet first and was able to dodge that bullet.TheOneGuy said:
fighters in the last 10 years have incorporated guard meters where if you turtle for too long, it knocks you out of block. but that's beside the point.TheOneGuy said:
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
mugwhump said:
As a fighting game newbie whose first traditional fighting game is TvsC, I'm gonna call bullshit on that. While the controls are certainly more simplified than most other fighting games from what I can tell, the non-universality of movelists is intimidating at the beginning stage.
There's always going to be a risk,. Yes, they're different types of games, but to say that "you never knew it was coming!" is simply a way of admitting you don't know what you're talking about.vgachi57 said:
FPS games are a warzone (ohoho a pun??), and you have to recognize that every offensive move is a risk. Like I said before, just because you can't see someone there doesn't mean you should assume no one's there. YOU make the decision to run across the open path, which would be faster, or to sneak around, which would be slower. Or you make the decision to wait it out. Or you make the decision to wait for a teammate. Or you make the decision to attempt to draw enemy fire to test the situation. There are any wild number of things you can do in any given situation, and if you make the wrong one, you die because you made the wrong one. Not because there was no way you could see it coming.
In much the same way, but less "official", as it were, if you play it safe and sit in the spawn area the entire time in a FPS, you gain absolutely nothing. You get no kills, you don't help your team. You're a worthless piece of shit.
BlackGoku03
Member
I'm suprised this thread has gone as long as it has. The answer to the OP's question should be easy to answer, right?
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
BlackGoku03 said:
All fighting game threads have to devolve into "Smash is shit/No it isn't/It only sells because of the characters/So?/NOT A REAL FIGHTING GAME/SHUT UP".
I see we are on track.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
For me, fighting games, like MMORPGs, have an entertainment:work ratio that's too low for me to bother with most of them. The amount of memorization is a big part of this.
People argue that fighting games do take a lot of memorization because they do; but these people are largely right by accident because memorizing moves and combos doesn't exactly take a lot of effort but memorizing how and when to execute them does.
In an FPS, every time you get shot or hurt it's because you fucked up. If there was someone that was largely impossible to see despite extreme prejudice, you shouldn't have been put in the situation where you were in this guy's radius in the first place. You always, *always* have the choice not to get killed (note that this is not to say that getting shot is always bad). The more people involved, the more contingencies you must consider to the degree that it's very difficult but not impossible to scrutinize these factors. What defines a good player in a team-based environment is one who can successfully scrutinize as many of these details as possible.
Games with stupid cannons like Modern Warfare 2 add a LOT of extra things to consider but they don't change this.
In an FPS, every time you get shot or hurt it's because you fucked up. If there was someone that was largely impossible to see despite extreme prejudice, you shouldn't have been put in the situation where you were in this guy's radius in the first place. You always, *always* have the choice not to get killed (note that this is not to say that getting shot is always bad). The more people involved, the more contingencies you must consider to the degree that it's very difficult but not impossible to scrutinize these factors. What defines a good player in a team-based environment is one who can successfully scrutinize as many of these details as possible.
Games with stupid cannons like Modern Warfare 2 add a LOT of extra things to consider but they don't change this.
and in doing so you open up a luck factor not present in fighters.TheOneGuy said:
even if you shoryuken beyblade hop around the map, there will come a time when someone sees your backside and shoots it. that will never happen in a fighter, there will never be a point where your opponenet sees a different screen than you do and can exploit that.
Yes.
that's because there's no logic to either position. hence an analogy to absurdity.
and technically, it depends on the FPS you are playing. You wont get very far ramboing through tactical shooters with no respawns.
thats not true, even in games like SF4 where guarding is a viable option, there will always be an opportunity to counterattack and move out. sure blocking is safe, but do you know whats safer? an opponent in hitsun.
that said there are many work arounds to blocking in fighting games, like guard crushes and throws.
infinityBCRT
Member
How many hours do you need to play a fighting game before you "get" it? Most people don't want to play a fighting game for 10-20 hours learning every move and every counter to another character's strategy. Thats why a game like Mortal Kombat became one of the most popular fighting games-- it was a very simplified version of what other hardcore fighting games offer.Ookami-kun said:
And a fighting game for most people is really just a party game. They play it when their friends come over for a bit and thats it. Its not the type of game most people play night in night out, so they'll never get the level of attachment required to know what they are actually doing.
You can make fun of people all you want but you can't argue against whats happening in reality.
Fighters need a lot more concentration than let's say FPS games. FPShooters are insanely popular, because the core experience boils down to "point here and click". It gives frequent doses of satisfaction to the player and the basics are learned in minutes. Still a competetive FPS player needs to start memorizing shit... a lot of it. But the learning curve is leaner.
Every game requires you to memorize things. Some more, some less. GAF assplodes.
Every game requires you to memorize things. Some more, some less. GAF assplodes.
Bad luck is not the same thing as taking a risk and accepting the possibility of death.Pandaman said:
However, you're clearly you're not interested in an actual debate, so I'm going to stop arguing with you. The other guy is cool, though.
EDIT: Although if you did want to talk luck, there are crits and shit in TF2. Which I accept as part of the game but the competitive types despise.
BlackGoku03
Member
I knew this thread would devolve into that looking at the first 20 replies... but damn, it should be obvious.Regulus Tera said:
What the... comparing fighters to FPS... I don't even...Fersis said:YEAH BUT HAVE YOU PLAYED COUNTER STRIKE?! >8(
Pandaman said:
No. In any competitive team based shooter, you don't die from some lucky random shot. Never. It's because someone fired in your direction with the intent of hitting you. The only way it can ever be called luck is if they missed and then you ended up walking into the shot anyway. But it's the same as if in a fighting game someone fired a fireball right after you did a super jump and you accidentally landed onto it.
And, targeting one of the earlier arguments in the thread, the whole wanting current fighting game franchises to dumb themselves down in execution like with Smash Bros reminds me of the whole Wii vs. HD arguments. If there were just more games that catered to them that were wildly advertised and made/designed well, they'd shut up and everybody would be happy. Unfortunately, unlike the console problem, they can't just buy a different console for the same price as their Wii and get a fix that way.
High punch, High punch, Low punch, Low kick, High kick, Back + High kickNakazato said:
I memorized this combo back when MK2 came out... never forgot it. I stopped playing Mortal Kombat games because of all the combo memorization. You just cant do very well without memorizing at least a few combos. SC is a lot like this as well (and its also waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse).
This is different than Street fighter which has a more organic experience and you can make stuff up as you go along. I prefer this system.
crazy monkey
Banned
I button mash. I like it that way.
Oichi said:
Maybe that is true but Smash is still a great game regardless of why people buy it.
Now if you look at Street Fighter IV sales. How many would that game have sold if they switched all the characters for a bunch of unknowns and called it something else? 2.5 million bought it for Ken and Ryu and 200,000 bought it because it's a killer fighting game.
(street fighter IV is one of my favorite games ever. I'm just trying to show you that most of the sales were based on familiarity with the characters and brand as well)
You people are being ridiculous if you don't understand what the OP is saying.
Yes, fighting games require memorization. They require memorization as much as Halo does. On a competitive level, they require incredible amounts of memorization. If you ask a competitive Halo player their strategies, you can bet your ass that they'll be able to recite the quickest flanking path or the item refresh rate of every item on the map. Doesn't mean you need that level of memorization to enjoy it.
Fighting games require memorization in a similar vein (the good ones, anyway). Just because you don't know monster combos doesn't mean you can't play in a non-tournament level setting. The most important things in those games are not who can Hadoken more... it's spacing and control. Knowing how much damage your normal moves can do.
Someone who has a grasp of mindgames and spacing can beat someone who knows how to do all the combos in a fighting game simply using normal moves (single button inputs).
Yes, fighting games require memorization. They require memorization as much as Halo does. On a competitive level, they require incredible amounts of memorization. If you ask a competitive Halo player their strategies, you can bet your ass that they'll be able to recite the quickest flanking path or the item refresh rate of every item on the map. Doesn't mean you need that level of memorization to enjoy it.
Fighting games require memorization in a similar vein (the good ones, anyway). Just because you don't know monster combos doesn't mean you can't play in a non-tournament level setting. The most important things in those games are not who can Hadoken more... it's spacing and control. Knowing how much damage your normal moves can do.
Someone who has a grasp of mindgames and spacing can beat someone who knows how to do all the combos in a fighting game simply using normal moves (single button inputs).