gaming_again
Member
Sony games/button-press TV shows gonna Sony.
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Why do Sony protagonists insist on not letting me solve puzzles myself?
- Thread starter Captain Toad
- Start date
Sony games/button-press TV shows gonna Sony.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Devs know that if you can’t figure out something in half a minute tops, you’ll grab your phone and go scream on Twitter that their game isn’t accessible enough.
If Ocarina of Time was released today, the first YT video tutorial of the Water Temple would get a million views in a day.
If Ocarina of Time was released today, the first YT video tutorial of the Water Temple would get a million views in a day.
Robb
Gold Member
Agreed, I find that stuff super annoying. Hand holding to the extreme.
I mean, why even bother having a puzzle if you’re going to tell the player the solution? Might as well just focus dev time on something else in that case.
Not only Sony games either, I had this experience in Plauge Tale Requiem recently as well.
I mean, why even bother having a puzzle if you’re going to tell the player the solution? Might as well just focus dev time on something else in that case.
Not only Sony games either, I had this experience in Plauge Tale Requiem recently as well.
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Captain Toad
Banned
That's not at all what I'm saying. God of War's gameplay is as good as anything. And the puzzles are actually good too. They just don't let you solve them.
I get the feeling the people whonsay things like your comment, haven't played any of these games and have just seen select cutscenes on YouTube.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
It's the result of focus testing and maximising revenue thanks to executive extreme risk aversion.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
You don’t have to imagine, just check out some of the top rated games on Steam.
Dynasty8
Member
Thank you, thank you, and thank you for bringing this up OP.
It is FUCKING infuriating. I am loving GoW:R, but this is hands down ruining my experience. I've noticed this more and more from Sony exclusives....like how stupid do they think gamers are that they can't figure something out on their own? To make matters worse, they blatantly shout out the answer after like 10 seconds. I just got to a room with a puzzle and have barely seen anything....then I immediately hear Atreus yell out "maybe you should do XY and Z and that should open the door...." "Oh hey, look father, above you is a hidden sound stone".
Seriously, if games don't at the very least give us the option to turn this incredibly annoying shit off, they deserve to get criticized. This is why I'll forever respect From Software.
LET US FIGURE SHIT OUT ON OUR OWN. FUCK!
/rant
It is FUCKING infuriating. I am loving GoW:R, but this is hands down ruining my experience. I've noticed this more and more from Sony exclusives....like how stupid do they think gamers are that they can't figure something out on their own? To make matters worse, they blatantly shout out the answer after like 10 seconds. I just got to a room with a puzzle and have barely seen anything....then I immediately hear Atreus yell out "maybe you should do XY and Z and that should open the door...." "Oh hey, look father, above you is a hidden sound stone".
Seriously, if games don't at the very least give us the option to turn this incredibly annoying shit off, they deserve to get criticized. This is why I'll forever respect From Software.
LET US FIGURE SHIT OUT ON OUR OWN. FUCK!
/rant
nkarafo
Member
That's because we liked games because of the challenge a game provides. The more challenging (clever challenge, not unfairly hard) a game was, the more well hidden it's secrets were, the more exciting it was to overcome and discover them. Even reaching the ending screen was something to be excited about. Now the ending screens are as exciting as a movie's end credits.
That's because now, most games are the same thing as movies and it's been like that for a long time. Finishing a game is a given, in the same way finishing a movie is. Games became mainstream and cinematic. It's our fault really. Read some old 90's game magazines and see how excited we were when a game felt like movie. It was like an achievement. We craved it. I even remember reviewers and gamers complaining when something was too "gamey" wishing it was more "movie like". The word "movie" by itself could make everyone cream their pants.
I never understood this even back then. Why do so many gamers hate games? Why do they want them to become something else? I mean, the sole reason i liked games in the first place was that they weren't movies. I liked them because you had control over what happens on screen, unlike movies. But modern gaming is about less and less control and more about passively watching things happen. Kinda like movies. It's crazy to me.
Anyway, that's why i mostly play retro/older games nowadays. With a few exceptions such as Elden Ring and the occasional Resident Evil remake.
Katajx
Gold Member
Yes, it’s been one of my biggest complaints so far.
gaming_again
Member
Every month I meet my old school friends for dinner. Every month they recommend a game to me. Every month I end up uninstalling the previous months’ game after a handful of hours spent watching some lunk hobble around a forest or dilapidated city while ruminating over his failed relationship or piecing together fragments of a story to which you can guess the twist three syllables in. Every month I fail to learn my lesson.
No YouTube required brah. Just long, bitter and punishing experience.
nkarafo
Member
Wiser words have never been spoken.
It's like all those people who complain they are getting lost in older Metroid or similar games that don't hold your hand. You are SUPPOSED to be lost my man, being lost is a byproduct of trying to figure out your way, which is the point of these games. Solving the levels themselves is your main task. If you just breeze through the maps as if you are in autopilot mode then what's the point of playing such a game in the first place? It would completely defeat it's purpose. Might as well make the whole thing a corridor and be done with it.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Who knows. But it's probably due to one main reason? Eye candy?
It might be an unskippable cut scene with bad acting or animations, but since it's there, some gamers love the wow factor of watching something you'd see in Hollywood (athough a 99% chance it's a bad version of Hollywood).
In older generations, loading times could take forever so staring at a Now Loading screen (or even worse zero message when the Apple II disc drive just keeps chugging to load a game until it finally stops), and I think most of us hated it and wanted to get back to the game asap. But now you got people tolerating loading/cut scenes because they got something to stare at.
I was too young to do it, but I remember my brothers getting out graph paper and a pencil to draw maps for Wizardry or whatever SSI game they played. It sounds like a pain in modern day gaming (all about convenience), but it was part of the game and they seemed to like uncovering traps and secret rooms. I dont think I ever remember them saying "Oh shit, I wish this was all automated and a compass arrow showed us where to bee-line to telling us how many meters away we are from the dungeon exit"
Elder Legend
Banned
I would have to agree with this sentiment.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I agree, I'm enjoying GOWR but god damn give me little more time to explore before bite my head off about the damn puzzles.
This becomes worse when mimir is trying talk about lore the but at same time Atreus trying give me hints about puzzles and I'm like.......
This becomes worse when mimir is trying talk about lore the but at same time Atreus trying give me hints about puzzles and I'm like.......
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cormack12
Gold Member
Forbidden West patch 1.06
Other
Guessing they will patch it, but yeah Ragnarok has been the worst culprit so far. I only looked at the geyser, Atreus telling me to freeze it and Mimir telling me the water pressure in the others changes when one is blocked!
Other
- Aloy will not mention her stash quite as often as before.
Guessing they will patch it, but yeah Ragnarok has been the worst culprit so far. I only looked at the geyser, Atreus telling me to freeze it and Mimir telling me the water pressure in the others changes when one is blocked!
The Cartographer
Member
Masses and video game journalist are adverse to any sort of challenge in video games; Sony and its studios took note of that two generations ago and started producing titles accommodating the lowest common denominator.
That's how it is and it is never going to change back.
That's how it is and it is never going to change back.
Dynasty8
Member
To me this is more annoying than sitting next to someone who has watched a movie at a theatre and blurting out what's about to happen every 10 mins.
How Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Guerilla and other developers don't see this as a major, major problem is mind boggling. You spent all that time, money, resources and effort into making something spectacular only to constantly, constantly, constantly annoy the player and ruin their experience. I also can't stand when people bring up the "argument" of casuals not being able to solve it. Dude, my 6 year old who shouldn't even be playing these games can solve it.
How Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, Guerilla and other developers don't see this as a major, major problem is mind boggling. You spent all that time, money, resources and effort into making something spectacular only to constantly, constantly, constantly annoy the player and ruin their experience. I also can't stand when people bring up the "argument" of casuals not being able to solve it. Dude, my 6 year old who shouldn't even be playing these games can solve it.
Klosshufvud
Member
To be fair, Elden Ring, which is tough has hell, has a higher critic score than GoW: Ragnarok. I think it's more that there is this attitude within Sony that every game they make must be accessible and beatable by literally anyone capable of breathing.
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The Cartographer
Member
You could be right but I still feel I that score-wise Elden Ring is an absolute exception to the norm.
It's really a fact that video game reviewers (especially the ones working for mainstream sites) aren't really fond of tough video games.
Dirk Benedict
Member
I actually feel insulted when labeled as "gamer" now at days.
BabyYoda
Banned
This might just be my most hated trope in all of gaming honestly, as you said, games have gotten increasingly impatient in this regard and it pisses me off. It completely takes away from the sense of accomplishment. It has even gotten to the point that I can get a mind block facing any kind of puzzle, because I know the bloody game (I'm not talking a specific game here, they are many) is going to tell me the solution any second now and so I feel I have to quickly solve it before it does and hence my mind can go completely blank, it's infuriating!
I know why they do it, it's because a lot of people quit games at ridiculously mind numbingly easy puzzles all the time and then trade the game in which equals less sales and less dlc sold, it's not because they are so thoughtful...
Developers stop this! If people are too stupid/impatient to work it out, then that's partly your fault for enabling said behaviour! Add an option at least to turn off hints, I beg of thee!
I know why they do it, it's because a lot of people quit games at ridiculously mind numbingly easy puzzles all the time and then trade the game in which equals less sales and less dlc sold, it's not because they are so thoughtful...
Developers stop this! If people are too stupid/impatient to work it out, then that's partly your fault for enabling said behaviour! Add an option at least to turn off hints, I beg of thee!
cormack12
Gold Member
It's because 'Souls' has become the de facto standard when discussing challenging games.
So if you actually give it a low score, you'll be pilloried as being a 'casual' because it's inferred you're marking it down because you couldn't complete it.
Which leads to a reverse type of score where the games are often over scored (imo) because the reviewer has to validate themselves as being credible.
The souls games are good, solid games but they do have problems and persistent problems (e.g. cameras, hitting leg bosses, bullshit bosses, clipping).
Sony taking difficulty trophies out of first party show their direction. And it's not even a bad one really but the hints are blatant answers in most cases. I can't believe they put so much effort into accessibility yet can't group a set of comments trigger to a toggle switch.
BusierDonkey
Member
This is my least favorite thing in modern games. I like figuring things out myself, I do it in real life all the time and it's a good feeling when you work past a brain blender. Being given the solution within seconds of entering an area with a "puzzle" is frustrating because it takes that experience away. This isn't just a Sony issue either, it's been creeping its way into the entire industry.
Tunic was one of my favorite games this year solely because the game charged me with figuring out not only the puzzles and secrets in the game, but also how to use the game's instruction manual mechanic itself. Some of the puzzles using the manual are real head-scratchers so when I 100% the game with no outside help I felt like a big brain. Right now, I'm playing Deathloop. The game requires you to scour areas looking for clues and information to make your next loop more successful. You have to piece together those clues yourself. The game features almost no cutscenes, dialogue is limited to NPC conversations which often offer up clues, or the back and forth between Cole and Julietta at the start of each area. You have to figure out how to kill multiple people in one day covering four points of time in that day, if you fail the day resets and you take another crack at it. All relevant info is kept in the menus for you to go over at any time and you can use that to formulate a gameplan to get better equipment and also figure out how to take out multiple targets more efficiently.
I finally played Nu-Tomb Raider this year which was the complete opposite. I was constantly given the answer to puzzles designed for total brainlets. Simple puzzles that the original Tomb Raider would have used in the tutorial section now have the answer explained by Lara who is apparently incapable of not voicing her every inner thought. It was a terrible experience. I imagine the game was given to the people in the studio who failed upwards within the studio, who don't really like playing video games. "People won't be able to figure this out", they say. Because they're idiots the game is dumbed down so that even Sharon in HR can figure out the puzzle.
Tunic was one of my favorite games this year solely because the game charged me with figuring out not only the puzzles and secrets in the game, but also how to use the game's instruction manual mechanic itself. Some of the puzzles using the manual are real head-scratchers so when I 100% the game with no outside help I felt like a big brain. Right now, I'm playing Deathloop. The game requires you to scour areas looking for clues and information to make your next loop more successful. You have to piece together those clues yourself. The game features almost no cutscenes, dialogue is limited to NPC conversations which often offer up clues, or the back and forth between Cole and Julietta at the start of each area. You have to figure out how to kill multiple people in one day covering four points of time in that day, if you fail the day resets and you take another crack at it. All relevant info is kept in the menus for you to go over at any time and you can use that to formulate a gameplan to get better equipment and also figure out how to take out multiple targets more efficiently.
I finally played Nu-Tomb Raider this year which was the complete opposite. I was constantly given the answer to puzzles designed for total brainlets. Simple puzzles that the original Tomb Raider would have used in the tutorial section now have the answer explained by Lara who is apparently incapable of not voicing her every inner thought. It was a terrible experience. I imagine the game was given to the people in the studio who failed upwards within the studio, who don't really like playing video games. "People won't be able to figure this out", they say. Because they're idiots the game is dumbed down so that even Sharon in HR can figure out the puzzle.
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semiconscious
Member
puzzles that come with their solutions provided are no longer puzzles. they're just time-killing artificial obstacles...
Captain Toad
Banned
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I cant believe this hasnt been mentioned in this thread yet but you can disable or delay hints in GOW Ragnorak in Accessibility settings.
Choices are Default, Extended and Extended+ which delay the time before the NPCs give you hints.
Mod of War
Maybe a thread title update will help more people turn this feature on.
GymWolf
Member
I think that option is for timed puzzles like the bells, not for the hints.I cant believe this hasnt been mentioned in this thread yet but you can disable or delay hints in GOW Ragnorak in Accessibility settings.
Choices are Default, Extended and Extended+ which delay the time before the NPCs give you hints.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
well shit.
Zekra Dezivad
Member
Focus groups
Captain Toad
Banned
No you can't. That's not what that does and we have discussed what it does.I cant believe this hasnt been mentioned in this thread yet but you can disable or delay hints in GOW Ragnorak in Accessibility settings.
Choices are Default, Extended and Extended+ which delay the time before the NPCs give you hints.
Captain Toad
Banned
Five minutes? GoW Ragnarok doesn't give you 5 seconds. You might not have even noticed there is a puzzle yet by the time they're screaming the answer at you.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
It isnt even five minutes. Hell, it isnt even five seconds. Atreus literally told me to freeze some water then bring a lift down before i even realized there was a puzzle to be done. Then the last part of the puzzle he kept his mouth shut, but then mimir blurted out that you have to break the rope. I was like you mother f
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Hell, maybe games fill their dead time with voice acting to get their money's worth.
Remember that Helenna Taylor thread about voice recorders getting paid by the hour? Maybe, the writers write shitloads of script and if there's budget leftover or time on the clock they tell them to record hints. Then the game designer puts that in the game to make it more "engaging" having the characters talking all the time.
Remember that Helenna Taylor thread about voice recorders getting paid by the hour? Maybe, the writers write shitloads of script and if there's budget leftover or time on the clock they tell them to record hints. Then the game designer puts that in the game to make it more "engaging" having the characters talking all the time.
GhostOfTsu
Banned
I'm still kind of early in the game and I thought that was normal tutorial stuff. Is it still like that later?
I didn't mind Aloy too but I know some people hated it.
64bitmodels
Reverse groomer.
Captain Toad
Banned
Aloy was more just annoying, but her comments didn't disrupt gameplay much. She just kept reminding us about the same things we already knew over and over.
This game has puzzles that probably would be fun to figure out. They aren't super elaborate like a pure puzzle game like Portal, but some are clever enough. But, you literally can't solve them because the npcs are just telling you the answers as soon as you reach them. The game act likes you've been struggling for half an hour and have zero chance of figuring this stuff out otherwise.
Vick
Member
Totally agree OP, there should always be an option for these hints.
This post feels written in 2014 when Ryse and The Order: 1886 released, before they flopped hard never to be seen again outside of very few occasional AA like Plague or Hellblade.
I wonder what kind of "modern gaming" you're part of because all I see is multiplayer trash, bloated huge open worlds filled to the max, remakes and some unique games here and there.
Dude, you're in a God of War Thread.. there's more gameplay and control in it than every Resident Evil Remake combined and then some.
This post feels written in 2014 when Ryse and The Order: 1886 released, before they flopped hard never to be seen again outside of very few occasional AA like Plague or Hellblade.
I wonder what kind of "modern gaming" you're part of because all I see is multiplayer trash, bloated huge open worlds filled to the max, remakes and some unique games here and there.
yurinka
Member
Most players would get frustrated and would hate this, the percent of people who completes it would tank and the game would tank in sales too.
Regarding the too fast and too obvious hints for puzzles I think they should appear later once you had time to look at the puzzle and try something by default, plus to don't be too obvious unless you're clearly stuck, and to be something that in settings you should adjust its timing or even being able to disable it.
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Aenima
Member
It seems most of the heavy hints Atreus tells us, are a kind of tutorial to let players understand how the world puzzles work and what tools we can use. Im now in some mines, it was full of puzzles and Atreus never told me how to solve anything. Main quest progression Atreus still gives you a hint to where you should be looking for, but other than that, all puzzles i solved Atreus didnt even opened his mouth.
tommib
Member
He does shut up puzzle-wise 4 hours into the game. The moment you start doing side quests you’re on your own with puzzle solving.
