For the longest it has always been in our in entertainment in one form or another. But recently and by recently I'd say the past decade, it's like suddenly people find it offensive. Despite if a game may have multiple characters which have various themes and characteristics, it always seems like people will always have it out for a character with sex appeal regardless of the character.
It's an issue with multiple sources of complaint. The three big ones I tend to notice are:
There's the moral aspect of it, which is about sexual objectification and its degrading effect on women.
The verisimilitude aspect, referencing how these kinds of designs fit the works the appear in. Note, this isn't necessarily about realism(for everyone), but about the work's internal consistency.
Then there's the visual aspect of it, whether the design itself is appreciated on an aesthetic level(this ranges from people thinking something looks tacky, to people feeling creeped out by moe stuff).
Of course some people have combinations of these reasons and others reference the other reasons while only really in support of one.
You're gonna have to go into more detail about "surrealism". You'll probably also wanna stop assuming everyone's stance is the same if they have a problem with a given sexy character design.
They had something along those lines in the Tomb Raider reboot where Lara's clothes would get more and more torn and tattered as the story progressed. But it was done more for realism's sake/as part of their agenda to make the player feel the character's struggle than for the sex appeal and it didn't feel contrived or cheap. I could definitely see them do something like this in Uncharted, too. But yeah, that wouldn't really have anything to do with sex appeal.
And if you have pondered the question, and came to the conclusion, "No, I don't think anything's wrong with this, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the people who like it, either"? What then?
Then we have to agree to disagree. And I do disagree, or rather there are aspects I disagree with. But I think that it shouldn't be a reflexive "they think there's something wrong with what I like they must not like me!" reaction
What's happening right now...isn't art. It's an industry, with a market and target audience. It's not art, it's design. (That's what I do!) It is meant to communicate and make you feel certain ways...whether you realize it or not. Any true artistic freedom you may find in creativity will probably best be found in indie games. And those games are destined not to sell as well because they aren't fine tuned to meet everyone's "consumer" needs.
Can you elaborate on this a little more? What I got from this, initially at face value, is that if I make a profit from it its automatically not art. I think that's kind of narrow mindset to have. Not every indie developer is Johnathan Blow-most that I know still consider what they're doing art, and want to do more than just break even. The nature of art, its expressiveness, its communication of emotions and themes, and other qualities don't disappear just because someone is trying to make a money off it and put food on the table.
You can make an inductive argument for "design by committee" to meet the "largest common denominator" with something like Call of Duty and the like. You can't, however, say that this is happening 100% of the time all the time. I'd think such examples as Shadow of the Colossus, which is not an indie game, have earned the right to be called art.
For the longest it has always been in our in entertainment in one form or another. But recently and by recently I'd say the past decade, it's like suddenly people find it offensive. Despite if a game may have multiple characters which have various themes and characteristics, it always seems like people will always have it out for a character with sex appeal regardless of the character.
If they show skin, or might seem "too sexy" suddenly some people get sensitive to these things as if the concept of surrealism flies over their head.
Putting cries of pandering and fetishism aside, How do feel about sex appeal in character design?
Me personally, I love it. I'm a fan sexy. I don't think it defines a character, but I see it as one of many that can make a character appealing, and sometimes sadly, overrated.
Also, I feel that there is a such thing as well executed sex appeal (which doesn't mean covered up or small breasts) and there is also very bad attempts at achieving it (nude means attractive regardless of design/ armor g-string/ etc),
What are some examples you might have that are good/bad ways of approaching it?
Also note that I'm speaking of all types of styles and design, realistic/athrop/chibi/SD/"anime" etc.
And let's try to avoid any Over the Top or unnecessary images and fan art.
Games as a medium is still seen as a pastime generally for 13-25 year-olds. The constant stream of sexualized females doesn't help that.
Unless it's used in a tongue-in-cheek/parody/justified way such as Bayonetta or it's to be expected in a male-targeted genre such as visual novels, there's just no use.
Most of the time, it's just cheap character design. Just put some boobs or skimpy clothing on a woman and you're done.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a proponent of censorship. I think we should just be more welcome to more realistic portrayals of females that are more than just eye candy like 90% of them.
Still don't understand how could anyone not find this design ridiculously pathetic. It's sexualization for males' pleasure at is finest: apparently in a game with sharp blades a woman's womb and cleavage don't need to be covered with armor. These are stupid designs that cast a shadow of shame on the videogame medium as a whole. A lot of this stuff is japanese, and has something to do with the sick depiction of sexuality in japan, like for Killer Is Dead, that anyway still didn't sell well despite all those sex-as-a-reward mechanics.
Also, the fact that something is "art" doesn't automatically justifies everything about it: art is not tautological. Art can be bad art: bad art is not good; art can suffer influences from the marketing sphere, can lack intelligence and depth, can be shallow, can be done for easy money pressing on people's primordial instincts like a drug.
Games are mostly "cheap thrills" kind of experiences still. Titties and beer, death and mayhem. These things sell to kids going through puberty and adults who never want to leave those subjects.
Sex is good, sexy is good, but the immature way sexiness is displayed in games has a very shallow base and thus comes off crude.
I wouldn't because I don't feel the game needs it (not in that context, at least) but if I had to...hm, well, it depends how far you take the wardrobe destruction, really. If it were done in Uncharted the way it was in Tomb Raider, it wouldn't have anything to do with sex appeal. If they took it further and actually made him lose his shirt, that would obviously go quite a way towards making the game sexier (although at the cost of it seeming somewhat contrived, I'd argue). But I feel the best way to do it would be to actually include situations where it makes sense for him to wear sexy stuff. They could replicate the scene in Casino Royale where Daniel Craig comes out of the water in his speedos, for example. I've always been bumped that we didn't get a proper water level in the Uncharted games, considering that it was supposed to be such a big part of the original game and that Nate is actually a wreck diver/marine archaeologist. Or like I said: a shower scene . But again, only if I had to make the game sexier or if it makes sense inside the story. I wouldn't want them to force scenes into the story just to do that. (Although I certainly wouldn't mind them if they did fit in there nicely.)
I wouldn't because I don't feel the game needs it (not in that context, at least) but if I had to...hm, well, it depends how far you take the wardrobe destruction, really. If it were done in Uncharted the way it was in Tomb Raider, it wouldn't have anything to do with sex appeal. If they took it further and actually made him lose his shirt, that would obviously go quite a way towards making the game sexier (although at the cost of it seeming somewhat contrived, I'd argue). But I feel the best way to do it would be to actually include situations where it makes sense for him to wear sexy stuff. They could replicate the scene in Casino Royale where Daniel Craig comes out of the water in his speedos, for example. I've always been bumped that we didn't get a proper water level in the Uncharted games, considering that it was supposed to be such a big part of the original game and that Nate is actually a wreck diver/marine archaeologist. Or like I said: a shower scene . But again, only if I had to make the game sexier or if it makes sense inside the story. I wouldn't want them to force scenes into the story just to do that. (Although I certainly wouldn't mind them if they did fit in there nicely.)
I want you to do some risk taking, and step beyond the limitations of reality and current restriction. If you could mold that shit to show off Drake as a sexy hunk. You're freed from having to justify everything for the sake of fiction and fantasy. What would be that result? Free your mind.
I want you to do some risk taking, and step beyond the limitations of reality and current restriction. If you could mold that shit to show off Drake as a sexy hunk. You're freed from having to justify everything for the sake of fiction and fantasy. What would be that result? Free your mind.
Then you don't understand how fiction works in order for it to be believable and justified. Dragons cannot fall down from the sky in an episode of Breaking Bad without any form of internal justification. In the same vein, Drake cannot suddenly take off his shirt to show off his sexy figure in the middle of nowhere without any internal reason/justification. We want to believe in the fiction and therefore it has to be believable.
That's strand one, yes. The second strand is that even contextualized sexualization can be bad if its near homogenous in its focus or target audience. This is where the whole focus on "changing the industry" comes in so that its not as focused on delivering games that often include sex appeal for young straight guys
So individual game narrative dissonance... AND overall industry narrative dissonance.
Best summarized as: I don't want whores in my game, just for the sake of having whores... AND I don't want to be reminded by the video game industry that the games I'm interested in primarily appeal to dateless young men who need virtual skin to substitute for their non-existent sex lives.
Ok, that was harsh. But also much more relatable for most people.
Having said that... what's the end game here? The noble POV is to raise the level of discourse and taste in culture for which video games are an obvious influencer on. But without sufficient economic justification - that's a tough ask. That economic justification could come from pressure from gamers themselves - typically the young men that these games appeal to - i.e. they wisen up and ask developers to stop showing so much skin. Or from appealing to a broader audience - broader range of demographics.
But the games that young men typically play don't really have a universal appeal outside of their range - they're violent, or they're sports based... and moreover require a kind of lifestyle (or even cognitive stand of mind) that's not really inculcated or naturally intuitive to the rest of the demographics - so that simply removing sex won't make them more inclusive - their entire themes would have to be redesigned from the ground up... even elements like the competitive nature of multiplayer games would need to be reconsidered to have a truly broad appeal. But if you go that far, you end up with entirely different games.
Another factor to consider is how this sort of stance further skews views of violence with views on sex. I..e. it further reinforces the whole American prudishness towards sex, and non-chalance towards violence - which in itself has negative social reprecussions. Is the answer to have more sex in games than there already is? Well that doesn't seem right... but at the same time, it would seem to have a more sexually liberated culture, it's important to show sex as 'no big thing' - that it's a natural act between people attracted to each other - and that by extension, sexual expression is 'no big thing'.
I suppose that really means that it's fine to have sex in games - but that the games should do what it can to reflect that sort of sexually liberal attitude, without fetishizing characters sexually. Sounds like a whole lot of contradictory nonsense - but if I cite Triss Merigold, then it all makes sense - she's not sexualized fetishistically - but her sexual relationship with Geralt is liberally shown.
Having said that... I wonder where the line is drawn between inappropriate or fetishistic sexualization and simply having attractive characters?
Is Chun Li an inappropriate sexualization? If we consider the nature of her character; as a cop - the highly attractive Cheong Sam style dress she wears makes little sense (other than to provide a visual stereotyping of her character)- that her skirt flips up and you can see her bloomers or underwear when she does various kicks is to me a definitive sexualization of the character. Indeed, her moveset was probably crafted with that sort of visual in mind. But in the relative context of the videogame industry, she's a fairly modest character that can be considered by most to be more attractive than sexual.
Do these goal posts shift? Do we shy away from criticizing a character like Chun Li because they're other more obvious targets to go after?
It seems to me that if we are not to have all designs abide by rules of functionality and sensibility - that some designs are admittedly aesthetic in nature (as it is in reality) - then we will have trouble defining the edge cases, as the edge shifts with the changing mores of gaming culture.
As an aside... I find that in most of these discussions where we attempt to enlighten society to any of its ills - the best approach to take isn't to insult and chastise people for been people - but to remind people to be more mindful.
Similarly, the criticisms we level, in this instance at developers - it's less that the developers are sexist chauvinistic pigs (indeed, I'd doubt that many if any consider themselves in such terms, even when put into kinder words) - but that they're a product of our current culture... and that they're simply doing what seems natural... but without mindfulness of how that 'naturalness' has greater knock on effects and consequences than they know.
Then you don't understand how fiction works in order for it to be believable and justified. Dragons cannot fall down from the sky in an episode of Breaking Bad without any form of internal justification. In the same vein, Drake cannot suddenly take off his shirt to show off his sexy figure in the middle of nowhere without any internal reason/justification. We want to believe in the fiction and therefore it has to be believable.
Thing is, I do, I'm asking her to just be over the top for the sake of it. Release herself from the shackles and limitations of reality and function. To think of something that doesn't have to make sense, but would be interesting and fun.
Not everything has to make sense, and sometimes just for the fuck of it, is a valid reason.
Thing is, I do, I'm asking her to just be over the top for the sake of it. Release herself from the shackles and limitations of reality and function. To think of something that doesn't have to make sense, but would be interesting and fun.
Not everything has to make sense, and sometimes just for the fuck of it, is a valid reason.
I'm a guy . And I don't know...make a crossover with Mass Effect and have Nate perform with Shep, Kaidan, Vega, Cortez and Thane in a gay strip club? Haha. Oh and Flynn should be there, too. Sully runs the club and Lazarevic is a member of the Russian mafia trying to get protection mones from him.
I'm a guy . And I don't know...make a crossover with Mass Effect and have Nate perform with Shep, Kaidan, Vega, Cortez and Thane in a gay strip club? Haha. Oh and Flynn should be there, too. Sully runs the club and Lazarevic is a member of the Russian mafia trying to get protection mones from him.
I like sexy art and character designs personally. I'm reminded of Penn Jillete's quote about free speech, that the answer to bad speech is simply more speech. If you don't like the art, don't support it. Make efforts to create or support art you think is worthwhile.
I like sexy art and character designs personally. I'm reminded of Penn Jillete's quote about free speech, that the answer to bad speech is simply more speech. If you don't like the art, don't support it. Make efforts to create or support art you think is worthwhile.
Sure. And we're not saying that stuff can't exist. We just wish that people would change things up from time to time. Seeing oversexed/pandering female models permeate most of the market can be tiring. And when we're critiquing, we're not interested in censoring, either.
Also, the fact that something is "art" doesn't automatically justifies everything about it: art is not tautological. Art can be bad art: bad art is not good; art can suffer influences from the marketing sphere, can lack intelligence and depth, can be shallow, can be done for easy money pressing on people's primordial instincts like a drug.
I'm a guy . And I don't know...make a crossover with Mass Effect and have Nate perform with Shep, Kaidan, Vega, Cortez and Thane in a gay strip club? Haha. Oh and Flynn should be there, too. Sully runs the club and Lazarevic is a member of the Russian mafia trying to get protection mones from him.
lol sorry man, -rubs chin- I guess it's a good start, but how are we going to get Drake to leave the club and show his sexiness to the world in an adventure? He pisses them off and suddenly on the run?
It's actually pretty terrible in terms of character design. It looks like something out of a Skyrim Nexus mod.
EDIT: Although you might argue that at least the depiction of the fictional character in the game somehow "justifies" that particular attire, but I'd still claim that the design in itself is just aesthetically insensible.
lol sorry man, -rubs chin- I guess it's a good start, but how are we going to get Drake to leave the club and show his sexiness to the world in an adventure? He pisses them off and suddenly on the run?
Hm...Sully needs money to keep the club going, Nate who quit his life as a treasure hunter because of reasons still has some old treasure map lying around which he never ended up researching so he sets out to find the treasure and save the club but somewhere along the way he gets caught up in a tricky situation with some bad guys and has to use his "charms" to get out of it? LOL. Why are we talking about this again ?
Hm...Sully needs money to keep the club going, Nate who quit his life as a treasure hunter because of reasons still has some old treasure map lying around which he never ended up researching so he sets out to find the treasure and save the club but somewhere along the way he gets caught up in a tricky situation with some bad guys and has to use his "charms" to get out of it? LOL. Why are we talking about this again ?
They can make it dark and sensual without having clear and pronounced double standards in their gender portrayals. And they could have more diversity.
I didn't really say anything particularly criticizing of sexuality or what could be seen as 'dark and sensual' in my post. And I don't understand how you're getting the idea of 'dark and sensual' from a lack of diversity. I don't think that 'dark and sensual' means lacking diversity. Only having curvaceous female characters sexualized. If anything, "that's not what they wanted" if they were going for 'dark and sensual'. As sexualizing the male characters or having androgynous or other body type characters sexualized would make it more 'dark and sensual'.
They can make it dark and sensual without having clear and pronounced double standards in their gender portrayals. And they could have more diversity.
I didn't really say anything particularly criticizing of sexuality or what could be seen as 'dark and sensual' in my post. And I don't understand how you're getting the idea of 'dark and sensual' from a lack of diversity. I don't think that 'dark and sensual' means lacking diversity. Only having curvaceous female characters sexualized. If anything, "that's not what they wanted" if they were going for 'dark and sensual'. As sexualizing the male characters or having androgynous or other body type characters sexualized would make it more 'dark and sensual'.
It's actually pretty terrible in terms of character design. It looks like something out of a Skyrim Nexus mod.
EDIT: Although you might argue that at least the depiction of the fictional character in the game somehow "justifies" that particular attire, but I'd still claim that the design in itself is just aesthetically insensible.
I was just thinking that her attire, while skimpy, is still within the realm of believability. She's aware that she's dressed that way and even references it. Her character purposefully dresses like that and it fits with her character and works well. It's not like she's wearing revealing clothing that gives heavy armor protection or anything.
I think we all just need to remember that even if western video game designers are brainwashed by misandrists, we will still have Japanese video game designers looking out for us complete losers.
. But again, only if I had to make the game sexier or if it makes sense inside the story. I wouldn't want them to force scenes into the story just to do that. (Although I certainly wouldn't mind them if they did fit in there nicely.)