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Why Russians Hate Company of Heroes 2
- Thread starter kazebyaka
- Start date
I never said that. I said the "...yes, the Soviet Union wasn't a great place to live in, and yes Stalin was an AWFUL man..." Stalin was most undoubtedly an evil man, one of the worst genocidal maniacs in history, and as I said before partly to blame for the massive Soviet losses incurred during the war. I mean the guy allowed his own son to die in the hands of Nazi's when he was captured.
That said, that doesn't mean the Russian soldier himself was some evil asshole. And while not every soldier may have wanted to fight for the USSR if he didn't then the Nazi's would exterminate him.
Though, again, that's not to say Russians soldiers didn't commit massacres and atrocities as well, most especially when they finally invaded Berlin. Let's just say they didn't do very nice things to the civilian Germans they encountered or the Polish at the beginning of the war.
Resident_UA
Member
God, I would LOVE that SO much!
fabricated backlash
Member
I didn't want to put it so bluntly but yeah, pretty much.
not_so_special
Banned
dont take russians nationalist seriously people,they like to speak bullshit like this,russian (as almost any nation) involvemend on ww2 was full of horrible things,kaytin forest anyone?
firehawk12
Subete no aware
That was one of the expansions. lol
And hey, not that I completely agree with this guy, but I found it interesting how they were bending over backwards to justify why playing as a Nazi soldier would not necessarily be "bad" because not all Germans were necessarily Nazis and so on and so forth. So you can have a German campaign that essentially ignores all of the German atrocities.
The guy's point is that if Relic can whitewash German history in a video game, why not do it with Russian history?
Again, I'm not quite sure if that's necessarily the right solution, but I can see why someone could get irrationally salty about this.
Of course the fact that Russians are now the default evil guys in all video games probably adds a lot to that paranoia about representation.
So kinda like Opposing Fronts, but a full-length campaign?
OldAsUrSock
Banned
Here we go.
I prefer to forget that god awful film.
Senator Soufflé
Member
Watched up until to the point where he says it's ok to shoot an unarmed man who is trying to surrender.
I don't agree with that.
I don't agree with that.
Shadow Hog
Member
Maybe he's secretly a Klingon. Qapla'!
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Wanna know why Holomdor isn't genocide?
Because when the entirety of Eastern Europe is experiencing a famine and you slaughter literally hundreds of millions of cattle and burn millions of acres of grain so the government won't take it and distribute it, you're gonna face starvation.
The USSR defeated the Nazis after losing 20 million people to them. That's not glorious?
There were practically no good guys in WW2. Almost every belligerent involved committed war crimes of massive proportions. If they didn't, they were in league with the Fascists.
If Darth Vader had fended off the attack on the Death Star we still wouldn't call it "glorious".
Well, depending on your values, of course. If you don't give two shits about anything except military prowess, then yeah, I guess you could call it glorious. That wasn't the point, though.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
The Death Star was attacked by a rag tag group of kids. Russia was invaded by one of the biggest and deadliest armies the in world, which was fueled by genocidal rage and generous donations from American Capital.
Completely irrelevant. You should read my post again.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
It's completely irrelevant because of your weak comparison. Darth Vader is the Nazis. The band of plucky, young, and inexperienced farmers defeating an Imperial power would be the Soviets.
Your mentioning of "military prowess" is interesting considering how under powered, undermanned, and under trained the Red Army was.
King Beyond the wall
Member
I haven't played company of heroes 2, but speaking as a history graduate with a first class degree and somebody who studied this era, a lot of this guys criticisms are extremely harsh.
A few that caught my eye:
1. General winter - this is a common term and the notion that the Russian weather helped slow the German army Is accepted. The winter of 1941 was the coldest winter in living memory at the time, and the German army, who fully expected the war to be over by around September sufferd terrible casualties as they had no winter equipment or clothing. In fact, program's were set up in the reich which were directed towards transporting domestic fur and warm clothing to the front, but these only arrived in may 1942.
2. Scorched earth. The Russian army employed this tactic mercilessly, and though relic seem to have gone to the extreme, it is no doubt true that the red army left villages with no housing, equipment and their farmland destroyed.
3. Executions - I wrote my dissertation on this subject (in world war 1 though) so this was particularly interesting to me. The official record of 150k executions is undoubtedly the absolute minimum. The Russians executed soldiers on the spot and their fate would not have been recorded, meaning the true number of executions will never be known. For comparisons sake, the british army in world war 1 numbered 10m and there were 322 executions. Also this guy claims that the Russians were not as brutal to their troops than any other nation, and this brought back an incident I read of in which a British officer accompanying the red army asked why a Russian infantry division was marching across a mine field to which the Russian officer replied 'what other way can clear a mine field quickly'?
4. The polish - this youtube guy makes it sound like the Russians and poles were best friends in the war, not at all. Firstly, the Russians helped the Germans in dividing and conquering Poland in 39, then later in 45 they allowed the Warsaw uprising to be crushed by the Wehrmacht so their would be no political opposition to the red army. This was followed by the soviet installation of the 'Lublin polish government' (a soviet puppet) and the complete rejection of the legitimate London polish government in exile. Relic's treatment of this issue seems fair, quite frankly,
5. The Russians lingered from attacking Berlin. The youtube guy rejects this, but it is fact. The Russians chose to launch offensives deep into Southern Europe in 1945 rather than capturing Berlin, this is usually accepted to have been an attempt to capture as much territory within what the soviets believed would be its 'sphere of influence' in the post war world. Southern Europe had always been a Russian target of expansion, and the end of the war gave them the oppurtunity to achieve some of these goals. They would install soviet puppet governments in Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Czechoslovakia following the end of the war.
6. The reichstag flag - the Russians had pressed hard to capture the reichtag at the request of stalin who wanted it taken in time for May Day, so undoubtedly many soldiers were pushed into attacking on a strict time frame.
Without playing the game myself, I am limited to what the Russian youtube guy talked about so I cannot discuss this issue completely.
A few that caught my eye:
1. General winter - this is a common term and the notion that the Russian weather helped slow the German army Is accepted. The winter of 1941 was the coldest winter in living memory at the time, and the German army, who fully expected the war to be over by around September sufferd terrible casualties as they had no winter equipment or clothing. In fact, program's were set up in the reich which were directed towards transporting domestic fur and warm clothing to the front, but these only arrived in may 1942.
2. Scorched earth. The Russian army employed this tactic mercilessly, and though relic seem to have gone to the extreme, it is no doubt true that the red army left villages with no housing, equipment and their farmland destroyed.
3. Executions - I wrote my dissertation on this subject (in world war 1 though) so this was particularly interesting to me. The official record of 150k executions is undoubtedly the absolute minimum. The Russians executed soldiers on the spot and their fate would not have been recorded, meaning the true number of executions will never be known. For comparisons sake, the british army in world war 1 numbered 10m and there were 322 executions. Also this guy claims that the Russians were not as brutal to their troops than any other nation, and this brought back an incident I read of in which a British officer accompanying the red army asked why a Russian infantry division was marching across a mine field to which the Russian officer replied 'what other way can clear a mine field quickly'?
4. The polish - this youtube guy makes it sound like the Russians and poles were best friends in the war, not at all. Firstly, the Russians helped the Germans in dividing and conquering Poland in 39, then later in 45 they allowed the Warsaw uprising to be crushed by the Wehrmacht so their would be no political opposition to the red army. This was followed by the soviet installation of the 'Lublin polish government' (a soviet puppet) and the complete rejection of the legitimate London polish government in exile. Relic's treatment of this issue seems fair, quite frankly,
5. The Russians lingered from attacking Berlin. The youtube guy rejects this, but it is fact. The Russians chose to launch offensives deep into Southern Europe in 1945 rather than capturing Berlin, this is usually accepted to have been an attempt to capture as much territory within what the soviets believed would be its 'sphere of influence' in the post war world. Southern Europe had always been a Russian target of expansion, and the end of the war gave them the oppurtunity to achieve some of these goals. They would install soviet puppet governments in Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Czechoslovakia following the end of the war.
6. The reichstag flag - the Russians had pressed hard to capture the reichtag at the request of stalin who wanted it taken in time for May Day, so undoubtedly many soldiers were pushed into attacking on a strict time frame.
Without playing the game myself, I am limited to what the Russian youtube guy talked about so I cannot discuss this issue completely.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
^ Interesting post, thank you for that.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
When they stop arresting/beating to death any lbgt people they can get their hands on i'll maybe start to give a shit about someone not appreciating how they are represented in a fucking video game.
hbkajshdvfbkjhvgkahsgdfka
Member
The portrayal of Africans in RE5 is a caricature but it was still offensive. Same with this. Just highlights every negative stereotype in the book. I remember Relic saying that they were going for historical accuracy of events and portrayal (not much you can do gameplay wise) and showing off examples of how like various Russian uniforms in the game or something. Guess that was thrown out the window.
Well we could, of course, bring in to argument Hitler's god-awful military strategy and other aspects such as the Western front which helped the prevail of the Red Army, but that's not the fucking point. Jesus.
The point is that the guy in the video is actually proud of the military history of USSR, and is ready to defend it by sentences such as "soldiers in the Red Army were real men and not pussies". Considering the actual Soviet history, which, in amount of obscenities committed, is very comparable to the Nazis, this is an attitude that instantly discredits the guy as a better interpreter of history than Relic, the object of his criticism. Thus, it is not worthwhile to listen to his points further.
Victories are achieved in any given war. They do not make the victor any more glorious, at least outside of strictly military rhetoric. I was using the term meaning something that is generally applaudable. If you seriously consider the Soviet army as such then I don't know what to say.
KojiKnight
Member
Conservative doesn't necessarily mean american republican conservative... That definition varies a LOT from what the rest of the world considers "conservative". I guess it's my own fault for not spelling it out... beyond my saying "conservatives of the WORLD". Next time I'll be sure to preface it with "Conservatives of the world, except for those that are located in the United States."
For those that don't seem to know the difference... let me get you a definition:
To further my point, notice how in that definition no mention of "republican" or anything like that is mentioned. You can be conservative despite the party affiliation... My god, some people just look at things preparing to turn them into a fight instead of taking them at face value.
I think the atmosphere and approach to the material affects how people react to blatant inaccuracies like this.
Assassin's Creed and Wolfenstein are great, contrasting examples. No one is bothered by Wolfenstein's hilarious inaccuracies because it has a clearly campy atmosphere and hyperbolic tone. By contrast, Assassin's Creed has a cooler, darker, more "I'm serious and badass" edge, and actually moved the series to the US to capitalize on the market. Still hardly the worst offender in the world, but I do remember some gripes about ACIII's historical inaccuracies.
In short: the more serious/"mature"/take-me-seriously a game gets, the less willing people tend to be to overlook blatant inaccuracies.
Assassin's Creed and Wolfenstein are great, contrasting examples. No one is bothered by Wolfenstein's hilarious inaccuracies because it has a clearly campy atmosphere and hyperbolic tone. By contrast, Assassin's Creed has a cooler, darker, more "I'm serious and badass" edge, and actually moved the series to the US to capitalize on the market. Still hardly the worst offender in the world, but I do remember some gripes about ACIII's historical inaccuracies.
In short: the more serious/"mature"/take-me-seriously a game gets, the less willing people tend to be to overlook blatant inaccuracies.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Good post, but a few contentions:
Poland - The Red Army wasn't the only country to abandon the Polish. The British asked Stalin to commit to liberating Poland but there was an overwhelmingly large German force stationed there and the Polish partisans had no chance of winning. The German divisions in and around Warsaw had very recently beaten the stuffing out of the Red Army. Stalin made this point clear before the Uprising but Churchill pushed the Poles to the offensive anyway, knowing the US and USSR declined to participate and that Britain wouldn't help in any spectacular manner.
Berlin - The Red Army couldn't have "bee lined" towards Berlin else they would have left their supply lines and flanks open to attack from the Germans occupying Southern Europe. The Red Army also had a vested interested in liberating Hungary as the proto Hungarian Fascists made a successful coup with the help of France, Romania, and Czechoslovakia and removed the legitimately appointed Socialist government in the 20s.
King Beyond the wall
Member
I'm pretty sure that's not limited to just Americans not knowing this but young people all over the world because there's A LOT of people here that know plenty about Stalin and the shit that he did. To generalize that Americans don't know about that is kind of insane because you'll find the same thing all over Western Europe as well. It's just a matter of who actually cares about history and who shrugged it off in school.
Plenty of Americans know about Stalin's atrocities if they even listened during High School and that was outside the obvious Cold War propaganda.
I haven't bought CoH2 yet, but as far as I was concerned, didn't Relic say they were going to show the atrocities of both sides? I do hate the Russian stereotypes in games but people have stereotypes about all sorts of people like how some view the French, Americans, etc.
I just find it odd to say that Americans don't know about Stalin when even my old classmates that support Marxism can agree that he was scum.
Agreed, while I still agree with is main point about Relic portraying the Russians in a stereotypical negative light he does seem to white wash over the atrocities the Russians did commit. I don't know why I initially agreed with him on his point regarding the number of soldiers executed, even my brain was shaking its head as I typed it. Hiding behind a statistic doesnt make the amount executed any less, it may have been .04% of the soldiers who fought but that is still 140,000 soldiers. That is a fucking lot, that is almost a third of the amount of soldiers America lost in the entire war.
And as I said above the Soviets invaded Poland along with Hitler and committed plenty of atrocities there and of course the things they did to Germany when they finally invaded were pretty bad as well. Still, it's important to note that the entire Russian Army werent genocidal maniac cowards who only fought against the Nazi's due to fear of punishment.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Replace USSR with USA and Red Army with the Marines. Or any other country and military. People get rah rah about their country's military.
Military concepts in the 1940s are different than concepts of 2013 and you can't look back at war policy 70 years ago through the lens of today. If you're point is that nothing in WW2 was glorious because war is awful, I agree.
FrozenCell
Member
So he should not be because they are not the US army? The game seems to pretend to be historically accurate yet its just furthering the devs anti-russian hate agenda to show some ridiculous things.
King Beyond the wall
Member
Good points -
Poland - though Stalin did state that he would not dive in to help the polish uprising, there is a difference between not rushing in and helping and lingering for two months a couple of miles away. They even refused to send air support, and refused British pleas to allow the RAF from operating from Russian airfields to help. This was a politically motivated decision by stalin.
Berlin - this is quite a contentious debate. My view is that the southern flank did need supporting, but the offensives that were launched were completely overkill for this aim. I believe that the final offensive on Berlin was delayed so that the red army could occupy the maximum amount of land they could, creating for themselves a sphere of influence and a better bargaining position going into Potsdam.
Interesting point about Hungary, I didn't know that.
Yes, and as I stated, 140,000 is the absolute minimum as this is only the recorded number of executions. The real number is likely far far higher. I invented a phrase for these kind of executions in my dissertation but I have completely forgotten what it was lol.
The Bolshevik soldiers raped and pillaged their way through eastern Europe to get to Germany. And when they got there they raped and pillaged some more. This isn't some sort of fairytale, it's what actually happened.
And don't give me that oh they were defending their home shit either, because the whole reason the Germans started the war as early as they did was because the Russians were manufacturing an ungodly amount of equipment for war.
And don't give me that oh they were defending their home shit either, because the whole reason the Germans started the war as early as they did was because the Russians were manufacturing an ungodly amount of equipment for war.
not_so_special
Banned
no it wasnt..the ussr invade poland along with the nazis,slaughtering thousands of poles in katyn forest
the only thing i get from the nazis vs ussr thing, was two bullies who got into a fight,because one of them won ,dosnt make the other a good guy
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
WW1 and WW2 was nothing but international dickwaving by practically all involved.
Resident_UA
Member
Read the whole article first....
Resident_UA
Member
Resident_UA
Member
Trogdor1123
Member
Its a game... seriously people... every country looks bad in one game or another.
Trogdor1123
Member
You have an extremely weird view of history... like seriously...
Dictator93
Member
This be the truth.