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[DForce]

Owen and Tommy? Yeah, that ended well and proves my point.

It doesn't since your point is that they were being portrayed as evil.

Ignoring half the things I said, and mis-representing my position is what I consider insane, but not surprising by your political agenda.

I didn't ignore it. Theories are made up of mere assumptions.

 

[Bkdk]

Number 1 reason is by far Horrendous and unattractive character design, Ellie looks even worse than the first, Abby is an abomination. Also forced vengeance story line, major character got into trap way too easily. Also story is way too linear, boring enemy variety, slow story pacing which bored me to hell.

 

[Kerlurk]

Gaming Discussion

Video game news, industry analysis, sales figures, deals, impressions, reviews, and discussions of everything in the medium, covering all platforms, genres, and territories.

www.neogaf.com

 

[Nikana]

TLOU 1 was easier to understand because it was a simple story.

The only difficult thing about TLOU 2 was to ask why Ellie would let Abby go at the end.

Knowing every small detail isn't required to understand the story, it's for people who want to say it's lazy writing when things were considered before writing the scene.



This makes absolutely no sense.

These things shouldn't need to be explained because it should be obvious.

"Horses don't make it" is all the explanation it needs, but of course, it's not as easy for some people and they just completely overlook this point.

People missed several instances in this story that finding Joel was not found in the middle of no where when Abby and her friends were pinpointing his location. You only make these claims if you're ignoring the story.

You seem to be implying because it was as "simpler" story that its easier to write? Thats not really how it works. The story of the first game is "easier" to understand because its told far better. We seem to be in agreement that more people enjoyed TLOU 1's story far more and I would never chalk that up to because its more simple.

And I never said that you need to know every small detail to understand the story. I said for it to make sense if you need to blanket everything with minor details is the issue. Those are very different things.

You really don't seem keen on actually trying to understand the arguments against it and keep falling back to people are overlooking things and ignoring the story.

 

[DForce]

My mistake. I said "evil and useless", but meant "evil OR useless".

Tommy got revenge on some people who were responsible for killing his brother.

Owen led Abby to the fireflies, setting up the sequel for Part III.

 

[sainraja]

I enjoyed my play-through of the game; however, I didn't like how the sequences were cut together. When they switched us over to Abby, all I wanted to do was get her part over with so I could move the story forward by getting back to where we left off with Ellie and having to go through Abby's section just ended up feeling too long because of it. Also, I don't understand how in a world devastated by an infection, where resources are low, a tale of revenge fits in. Don't get me wrong, humans will ultimately be humans no matter what the conditions are after they have gotten accustomed to it and someone lusting for revenge could likely do what Abby did BUT she had 5 years to sit on it. I mean, that is a LOOONG time to sit on revenge and exact it the way Abby did.

Not to mention how many people all of them crossed over the course of their journeys in that world. Why was Abby's & Ellie's revenge story more important? How could they not see that? Specially ABBY and I repeat, she had 5 years to sit on it.

EDIT

I think what TLOU: P2 suffered from is what started to become popular in TV shows where even the main characters were not safe from 'death' making the situations they faced real. I think naughty dog tried to pull that but I feel a lot of it was forced and wasn't built up organically. The doctor shown in the first game wasn't a match with the doctor they put in the second and made him Abby's father. It was done for the SHOCK factor, similar to how The Walking Dead tried by having Glen almost die twice and then ultimately actually die.

 

[Umbral]

This feels like a joke thread with that OP.

 

[Kerlurk]

Gaming Discussion

Video game news, industry analysis, sales figures, deals, impressions, reviews, and discussions of everything in the medium, covering all platforms, genres, and territories.

www.neogaf.com

 

[DForce]

You seem to be implying because it was as "simpler" story that its easier to write? Thats not really how it works. The story of the first game is "easier" to understand because its told far better. We seem to be in agreement that more people enjoyed TLOU 1's story far more and I would never chalk that up to because its more simple.

And I never said that you need to know every small detail to understand the story. I said for it to make sense if you need to blanket everything with minor details is the issue. Those are very different things.

You really don't seem keen on actually trying to understand the arguments against it and keep falling back to people are overlooking things and ignoring the story.

No, it's easier because it was a simple relationship story and made you question Joel's decision at the end.

TLOU 2 had you question Ellie's and Abby's decision. Why did Ellie let Abby go? Why did Abby let Ellie go? Why did Joel lie to Ellie for so long?

Yes, it's easier to understand why Joel loved Ellie and why he saved her.

We seem to be in agreement that more people enjoyed TLOU 1's story far more and I would never chalk that up to because its more simple.

Simple doesn't mean basic. It's simple because it's a daughter and father like story. It doesn't ask you to question characters decision like the second game.

And I never said that you need to know every small detail to understand the story. I said for it to make sense if you need to blanket everything with minor details is the issue. Those are very different things.

I know what you said. It make sense, but for some reason you're completely missing it.

You really don't seem keen on actually trying to understand the arguments against it and keep falling back to people are overlooking things and ignoring the story.

You're trying to prove to me that this game has bad writing and it's not working. You want to tell me that a lot of people's arguments are thoughtful when I'm seeing the total opposite. People who love to express their frustration about the writing mostly just repeat what others have said on YouTube or Twitter.

 

[Nikana]

No, it's easier because it was a simple relationship story and made you question Joel's decision at the end.

TLOU 2 had you question Ellie's and Abby's decision. Why did Ellie let Abby go? Why did Abby let Ellie go? Why did Joel lie to Ellie for so long?

Yes, it's easier to understand why Joel loved Ellie and why he saved her.




Simple doesn't mean basic. It's simple because it's a daughter and father like story. It doesn't ask you to question characters decision like the second game.



I know what you said. It make sense, but for some reason you're completely missing it.



You're trying to prove to me that this game has bad writing and it's not working. You want to tell me that a lot of people's arguments are thoughtful when I'm seeing the total opposite. People who love to express their frustration about the writing mostly just repeat what others have said on YouTube or Twitter.

What am I missing exactly? If you understood it then you response does not align with what I said.

I am in no way trying to prove it has bad writing. like you said, bad is subjective, but you seem to be adamant that its not bad. Thats fine, but trying to present that as anyone who disagrees is simply complaining or not paying attention is not a conclusion I have seen in evidence.

Like I said, many who have issues with the story stem from writing mistakes that are prevalent in their eyes and its not like they are simply pulling things out of thin air and nitpicking like you suggest. Its a very common complaint and mistake made by writers in all forms of writing. The overwriting in the main complaint I have seen. Maybe that is not said directly but the roundabout point tends to stem from that opinion.

"No, it's easier because it was a simple relationship story and made you question Joel's decision at the end.

TLOU 2 had you question Ellie's and Abby's decision. Why did Ellie let Abby go? Why did Abby let Ellie go? Why did Joel lie to Ellie for so long?

Yes, it's easier to understand why Joel loved Ellie and why he saved her."

This is an example of the complex plotting that many people have issues with. You are trying to paint TLOU I as simple and TLOU II complex and then deducing that because its had more plot lines it became more difficult to understand and people started to nitpick and/or weren't paying attention.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm just waiting for the PS5 version/upgrade. Really looking forward to playing it.

 

[DForce]

What am I missing exactly? If you understood it then you response does not align with what I said.

I am in no way trying to prove it has bad writing. like you said, bad is subjective, but you seem to be adamant that its not bad. Thats fine, but trying to present that as anyone who disagrees is simply complaining or not paying attention is not a conclusion I have seen in evidence.

Remember, you replied to my post trying to prove a point and now you're going away from it.

Like I said, many who have issues with the story stem from writing mistakes that are prevalent in their eyes and its not like they are simply pulling things out of thin air and nitpicking like you suggest.

I already gave an example. Your reply.

The scene in question I think is a clear example of the overly complex plot.

It wasn't over complex. It's very, very simple to understand. It's funny that people who gave this game good reviews could understand it with no problem, and you have people who don't understand it cry "plot holes" in the comment section. So the problem isn't that it's too complex.

This is an example of the complex plotting that many people have issues with. You are trying to paint TLOU I as simple and TLOU II complex and then deducing that because its had more plot lines it became more difficult to understand and people started to nitpick and/or weren't paying attention.

I said both stories are easy to understand, but it's just that TLOU 1 is easier to understand than Part II. You're the one that's making it far more difficult than it actual is.


Just because a movie or game requires you to "think" that doesn't mean the story is too complex.

A lot of movies have bad guys where their motives are simple, but in the Dark Knight, it requires a bit more "thinking" to understand Joker's motives. Its clearl explained in the movie, but some people just overlook it.


We know why Abby let Ellie and Tommy go and that's because they were only there for Joel. They're not the "bad guys" so they're not going to kill people who didn't deserve it (even though they tried and Owed stopped them). You think this is too complex when its not.

 

[Clear]

It's like beating a dead horse, but here goes:

- kills off the main character, like it's nothing, and like we have no emotional investment in him
- replaces the main character with the person who murders previous main character as if that's acceptable
- Joel must die for his sins, but Abby gets forgiven and let go, even though you spend the whole game hunting her down with the purpose of killing her
- it's superfluous that they kill him off, and it's equally superfluous that Abby gets a pass
- replaces main character with a woman, and woman that comes across as lacking in any femininity. Not that any femininity would have helped, but the fact, it's making her character appeal to a certain segment of political views out there.
- "lacking in any femininity " - an aspect that seems to be celebrated by many reviewers/bloggers, etc. as if finding a woman attractive is misogynic. The whole man wooing a woman, is seen as making the woman second place to the man.
- the ideology of Neil Druckmann (I added the second n Neil, so relax) which he has talked about in interviews
- Neil's condescending attitude to the fans who don't appreciate his story decisions or his ideology
- it's almost as if, how dare we care for Joel! Why? Is is too much of a man, or too white, or what? This follows the narrative that is going on in society these days, that gender and race have to be fixed, to undo the past, so instead of creating new characters, and new stories, they get rid of our current hero's. Case in point, killing off Peter Parker in the comic books.
- one of the strongest story elements in the first game, is the paternal feelings you have for Ellie, is that she replaced your daughter, and you have to help her, and it would have been nice if that continued. In this warped world, I would not be surprised that people have a problem with this also.
- the vast majority of stories are told from a serial point of view, in that the characters you have grown to like, is continued, and this game breaks that mold. Why? For all the wrong reasons.
- Woman are strong, and men are either evil, or useless (and usually both), like all the male characters in this game. It's like your basic script these days for a Netflix show. It's an agenda to correct what is perceived as a wrong, like income equality between men and woman. Have to have more stories of woman dominating over men.
- Sony censoring every game that comes out of Japan, with even the slightest hint of sexuality, but this game has an explicit sex scene that gets a pass. I guess the Japanese sexuality is too 'normal' to be allowed.

The reason its like beating a dead horse is because most people's rationale for hating the game boils down to the game not being the Joel-centric fan service story they wanted, and/or because its writer director is a member of the political tribe they are opposed to.

Its really that simple, especially as neither of those things should be considered as faults.

Sorry, but from where I stand if you're the sort of "fan" who believes their affection for a property should act as an ironclad creative strait-jacket preventing its author from going wherever their muse/instinct takes them, you're not really a fan at all.

Similarly if we are to start shitting on works just because their creator holds political beliefs we do not share, then why not join Resetera? That's been their MO from day#1.

 

[Nikana]

Remember, you replied to my post trying to prove a point and now you're going away from it.



I already gave an example. Your reply.



It wasn't over complex. It's very, very simple to understand. It's funny that people who gave this game good reviews could understand it with no problem, and you have people who don't understand it cry "plot holes" in the comment section. So the problem isn't that it's too complex.



I said both stories are easy to understand, but it's just that TLOU 1 is easier to understand than Part II. You're the one that's making it far more difficult than it actual is.


Just because a movie or game requires you to "think" that doesn't mean the story is too complex.

A lot of movies have bad guys where their motives are simple, but in the Dark Knight, it requires a bit more "thinking" to understand Joker's motives. Its clearl explained in the movie, but some people just overlook it.


We know why Abby let Ellie and Tommy go and that's because they were only there for Joel. They're not the "bad guys" so they're not going to kill people who didn't deserve it (even though they tried and Owed stopped them). You think this is too complex when its not.

Im not moving away from anything. You keep trying to say things are "very very simple" as if its a fact. Its not a fact. Its clearly writing that you found to be good. The argument is that its not.

Nobody said requiring you think means something is too complex. Complex plotting can be an issue if its not told well, like I said before. Its again, how the story is told, and theres where people have issues. If you have complex plotting you need to tell the story in a way that doesn't make it feel complex.

But you have zero intention of actually trying to understand the arguments and are going to continue with the narrative you've written about anyone who has criticism. You once again try to look at other forms of medium with the Dark Knight example which again is no longer arguing the point being made. Which actually is a huge argument to how the writing doesnt work for many in TLOU II. Clear motives is another huge issue for many in TLOU II and TDK Joker doesnt have that issue the way it does for many in TLOU II.

We wont see eye to eye so theres no reason to continue this discussion.

 

[Tonidayo]

First they killed JOEL and then Ellie goes in a r venge killing spree only to stop at the very end and cry like a baby . Horrible scripting

 

[Valentino]

And then...

Admittedly him (and Ellie) have become an iconic face for playstation and gamers - but to the extent people round here talk about him you'd think he was some mascot from the 90s who had 10 games under his belt with "i'm here to stay" written on his forehead

 

[StreetsofBeige]

First they killed JOEL and then Ellie goes in a r venge killing spree only to stop at the very end and cry like a baby . Horrible scripting

That's what TLoU3 is for. Got to do the usual "it's time to end the script and game.... but gotta make sure it leads to a sequel"

 

[Kerlurk]

Gaming Discussion

Video game news, industry analysis, sales figures, deals, impressions, reviews, and discussions of everything in the medium, covering all platforms, genres, and territories.

www.neogaf.com

 

[StreetsofBeige]

What you're a fan of then, if it's not the continuing narrative that you're use to? That's why we are a "fan". If the author strays too far from what you liked, then it's understandable to complain.

If you went to a movie to watch Superman, and they killed him off in the first act, and replaced him with an angry lesbian Superwomen, you would still be a "fan" right, as long as it's the same author. He can change the narrative to what ever he wants, and you're still a "fan"?

Authors are sacred? They can do no wrong?

And about not holding the same political beliefs, does not mean I have to buy into it, but I agree with your assessment, that my behavior is not much different than those at that other forum, but the difference is my stance is opposite of theirs, and the reason why I'm here and not there.

I should join them, since I behave like them, but my position is the opposite of them. Does that make sense to you?

Plus they ban people left and right, who do not agree with them. I have never asked for anyone to be banned here for supporting this game. And I don't feel I have a right to request such a thing. Not my forum.

OP asked a question "Why Some People Hate TLOU2?", and I answered.

It's ok to hate the game, but you got to make sure you don't say it publicly.

When you do that, the defenders feel bad and need to protect their favourite game that got voted second best by players.

Their enjoyment of games goes down the toilet when random gamers on forums say they don't like it.

 

[Clear]

What you're a fan of then, if it's not the continuing narrative that you're use to? That's why we are a "fan". If the author strays too far from what you liked, then it's understandable to complain.

If you went to a movie to watch Superman, and they killed him off in the first act, and replaced him with an angry lesbian Superwomen, you would still be a "fan" right, as long as it's the same author. He can change the narrative to what ever he wants, and you still the "fan"?

Authors are sacred? They can do no wrong?

And about not holding the same political beliefs, does not mean I have to buy into it, but I agree with your assessment, that my behavior is not much different than those at that other forum, but the difference is my stance is opposite of theirs, and the reason why I'm here and not there.

I should join them, since I behave like them, but my position is the opposite of them. Does that make sense to you?

Plus they ban people left and right, who do not agree with them. I have never asked for anyone to be banned here for supporting this game. And I don't feel I have a right to request such a thing. Not my forum.

OP asked a question "Why Some People Hate TLOU2?", and I answered.

You're narrowing the definition of fan down to allegiance to a singular character. How about the overall world, the rest of the cast and the events that transpire within it?

What do you do when a character like Joel has basically gone A-Z on his character arc? Rehash the same basic plot again, or basically piss all over established continuity and characterization to make him do stuff he wouldn't have done previously for the entire story? Joel wasn't going to have a convincing change of heart that finding a cure was a thing worth pursuing, he wasn't going to become a peace-loving townie or a martryr for some other schmuck's cause because he's basically Jesse James; a bad-ass outlaw who's past was inevitably going to catch up with him.

Joel died for good reason. The character had nowhere left to go (when the endpoint is basically damning the world to save his daughter you can't go bigger!), and his demise acts as an ideal jumping off point to continue Ellie's story. It establishes the stakes are high from the outset and no character is safe, it provides traumatic impetus for Ellie to go off the rails and act uncharacteristically allow for the themes of the overall work to be explored.

Your Superman analogy just doesn't work. He's not the title character, was barely used in promotion and rather than having literal years behind him as a pop cultural icon literally appears as the lead in a single game, and not even its DLC.

Authors aren't sacred but their vision should be respected, especially when the audience had no say in a character/world that they originated. Assuming onwership is horrifically entitled. Some other creative or Johnny-come-lately reshaping a world/franchise in their image retrospectively is a different matter altogether; the whole TLJ similarity angle is just bunk. That was disregarding a fanbase that had been around for decades, this is more like saying Empire Strikes back betrayed Star Wars fans because Han ended up frozen in carbonite and Luke lost his hand!

Regarding political belief/actions, I have two words for you: Horseshoe Theory.
Go far enough either way and you become the same interchangeable authoritarian asshole who denounces/suppresses anyone who disagrees with them. The dogma just explains the shitty behavior, at which point I say what's the fucking diff if the tyranny is communist or fascist in complexion?

Bottom line is the operative word here is HATE. Being disappointed or disinterested in the game is fair enough, but HATING it? To the extent that people are still raging about it this long after release? That degree of vehemence can only be explained by the reasons I stated, beause its a visceral, emotional thing.

Its simply not justified by the work. Its a lengthy, polished, extremely well-made game, free of any sort of predatory MTX or other revenue scraping mechanism. Yet it gets more shit than titles rammed to the gills with "pay us more money" gimmicks, bugs and/or performance issues, and most of all as a game it really doesn't depart from the formula that was so successful for its predecessor.

 

[Eternal21]

Because some people have a really shitty taste in games...

 

[Dorohedoro]

 

[The_Mike]

Nice try Druckmann.

 

[Dunki]

Anybody that played the game (and it has the best completion rate of any game in PlayStation 4) can see:

• The revenge cycle theme is fantastic.
• The story is deep and keep you engaged to know what it will happen next.
• Characters are great with it own complications with amazing development (I can't find one to be bad).
• The gameplay is again flawless... it is perfection.
• The enemy variety is now way better.
• The weapons and craft items are way better than original.
• The world and environment are fantastic.
• Side activities are great.
• It humanizes all sides... it is impactful and emotionally driven.

The game is everything a sequel should be.
It is a must to play even if you get down due violence.

So I really can't understand the hate some GAFers has with one of the best games ever created.

PS. I really can't even understand the political controversy... I really can't see politics in the game... maybe because I'm not American? I don't know.

Edit - Making this thread just me miss even more Factions MP... I blamed ND for that and I will continue doing that because that decision was utter shit.

First of all let me make it clear that the special event or scene has nothing to do with. it The how it happend is bad writing. To change complete PErsonalities of established Character just so it can fit better is bad writing. The pacing of this game overall is terrible. The Abby Section feel slike a 10 Hour sidequest just to have something she can fight that is more terrible than her. The way the game tries to force you to like her is ridiculous. Best example: Dogs. Ellie Kills tons of Dogs if you want. she even does this in cutscenes. This gets an emotional response from the player. ABBY on the other hand NEVER Kills a dog. Instead she is interacting with the dog. Like "LOOK How Abby loves dogs she can not be bad guys righ right? please love her please...."

And there are tons of moments like this in the game. Why do you think are two people of each group pregnant? So Ellie can kill one and Abby can spare the other one. It is so ridiculous how Druckman forces the plot and the event so you may like Abby in the end. Same with the ending. Abby does not want to fight anymore. Evil Ellie does not care

None of the new characters have any deveolpment. People you even spent more time with are just canonfodder. So when Ellie kills one of Abbys Team and HOURS later with abby you see some flashback about some Person with a name you should suddendly care for this person? NONE of the Deaths in this game except Joel is impactful. They just die hours later you see a flashback if even and thats it. Last Of Us was all about the characters and their development. The journey for Joel and Ellie and the people they meet on the way. There is nothing of this in TLOU2 except again the flashbacks with Joel.

Druckmann also hides important informations. When you first see the scene at the dnce and Elllie gets mad at Joel. Why do you think Ellie would even care that much? Because AT THE END scene you get a again Flashback how they basically made up again. Without this scene it makes no sense for Ellie to go that far

While the gameplay and presentation is surely TOP, the writing, the pacing and the characters are so lackluster compared to the first game because they can not develop.


What should have worked is: Second Game with Abby and Crew and their Journey to find Joel. There you can establish the Characters she was on the journey for 4? years to find Joel. In the end she finds him she kills him and it ends with Ellie Screaming. BOOOM For Part 3 you know have 2 established groups of Characters you can care for and who are going to kill each other Instead Abby kils Joel ellie gets on the revenge tour while Abby goes on a 10 Hour side quest .

TLOU was one of the best games I have ever placed in terms of Story and characters (Before I knew about Yakuza) TLoU2 is sooo bad copared to this game. It still beats Ubisoft games for sure but because TLOU was so special for so many people TLOU2 just amkes you upset and dissapointed. And I will be honest. I have no faith in Naughtydog anymore as long as Druckmann is still there.


Also Fun Fact: They Fridged JOEL so fucking hard. This is the whole motivation for Ellie and the overall plot. Which is pretty funny coming from an Antia Advocate like Druckman who always calls out fridging of characters but because this time it is a man it is not a trope and outdated

 

[Party McHardy]

I will eventually play it but the shoehorning an agenda into a murder simulator made weary just reading about it.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I feel it’s mostly because of what tragically happened to that beloved “character” mostly. I liked him as well, but I was like get over it and move on people. Imo, that’s a silly reason to write off the entire game.

 

[Saruhashi]

For me both Hades and Ghost of Tsushima are better games this year.

If you disagree then that's cool. Everyone has their own preferences.

I don't know why so many people here seem to think that they'll somehow convince people to agree that a game they do not like is actually good.

I didn't like the story, the characters or the gameplay and I found the world to be a bit boring. I didn't like the game. In fact, I really hated it.

I'm not a professional reviewer or an English major or even particularly good at writing in general. So maybe I don't, or can't, express my displeasure at the game in a particularly satisfying way.

No amount of convincing or well thought out argument is going to convince me that a game that I hated is actually really good.

"Oh but you see Joel actually would blah blah blah and he was never the main focus blah blah blah."

Great. Thanks. Still hated it.

Kind of reminds me of The Last Jedi reaction in a lot of ways. The never ending line of people coming to convince you that you were" wrong" to not enjoy it. Like... I didn't like it. FFS. I'm just some guy, not a wordsmith so expecting me to lay out my specific issues so you can try and knock them down is a waste of everyone's time.

I'm not gonna go "ah so I have been understanding stories wrong this whole time well I guess this game ai hate is brilliant now."

 

[Mister Wolf]

The pregnant woman within a large group going out on dangerous missions with all of her peers including the father of the child allowing it is the dumbest thing I've seen in a game attempting to tell a realistic story.

 

[EDMIX]

kills off the main character, like it's nothing, and like we have no emotional investment in him

As a person that completely enjoys the first and the second game I had no problem with the way they killed him off because that's life, I could give two shits about anybody having an emotional attachment to a character ultimately in real life people don't just fucking die based on your fucking emotional attachment to them it sounds completely fake unrealistic an overdramatized simply for the sake of it. It would be like trying to ask him to die saving a group of babies and he goes down in a hail of bullets or something.

When the fuck do you see that normally really happen in real life? So I'm completely fine they did not have some fake-ass comic book ending for the sake of sparing people's feelings lol

- replaces the main character with the person who murders previous main character as if that's acceptable

You played multiple characters in the first game and second game. To say "main character" makes it sound as if the series default was him, he is simply one of MANY characters in the series, its not fucking named after him or something. So yes its "acceptable" as its their game, what are you going to do? Send them to cancel culture jail or?

- Joel must die for his sins, but Abby gets forgiven and let go

Irrelevant. 2 different people are involved in that with 2 different mindsets. Stop acting as if the game needs to fit all your moral feelings bud. The world is cruel and unjust.

- replaces main character with a woman, and woman that comes across as lacking in any femininity. Not that any femininity would have helped, but the fact, it's making her character appeal to a certain segment of political views out there.

Irrelevant. You could fucking argue a white male was put in a game to um " appeal to a certain segment of political views out there "

Tell us when you make your Youtube series about agendas as you basically sound just like Anita Sarkeesian

Keep it as Joel and no one dies and "oh noes, its a white male ONLY to appeal to a certain segment of political views out there "
Make it a women with feminine traits "oh noes, its a WOMENZ ONLY to appeal to a certain segment of political views out there "
Make it a women that not that many feminine traits "oh noes, its a da TRANZ ONLY to appeal to a certain segment of political views out there "
Make the new character a kid "oh noes, its a kid ONLY to appeal to a certain segment of political views out there "

This can be argued to fucking death buddy, don't like it, don't buy it and make your own game about your own agendas.

LET THEM MAKE THEIR FUCKING GAME!

I say that to SJW's and those that anti-SJW's. Both are arguing the same shit.

Demographic in game, MUST be agendaz. Based on this shit, nothing is allowed in a game without triggering you folks, legit NOTHING.

I don't even know going forward if anything you are saying regarding The Last Of Us 2 should even be taken seriously, your issue is regarding feelings of shit that have nothing to do with the game. Would I be expected to take seriously Anita Sarkeesian when she is mad at Uncharted for having a white male? Can I really take what she says honestly when she's already made clear she is triggered about an assumption about something with little to no proof?

Edit. Looking at your comments, too much of views about this game have more to do with some political shit then anything to really do with the game. I couldn't just believe some SJW if they kept crying about "white males, WHITE MALES" in every fucking comment be like "I can just see the howls of outrage, of the claims of feminism" etc.

I think its funny as shit that many literally can't see they are arguing the same SJW argument...its the same argument folks. Going to have to add you to that ignore. SJW and Anti SJW are basically the same type of people for different teams.

 

[Kerlurk]

Gaming Discussion

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www.neogaf.com

 

[rofif]

Because there were bunch of fake pre release leaks that abby is trans and the game is sjw galore... And people remember it... If they would only play it they would understand how fake the outrage was.

Then there are people who hate abby because you know why... That's The point of the game. Hey arc is fantastic and she was my fav character by the end. Oh and poor Owen holy crap

 

[Clear]

What should have worked is: Second Game with Abby and Crew and their Journey to find Joel. There you can establish the Characters she was on the journey for 4? years to find Joel. In the end she finds him she kills him and it ends with Ellie Screaming. BOOOM For Part 3 you know have 2 established groups of Characters you can care for and who are going to kill each other Instead Abby kils Joel ellie gets on the revenge tour while Abby goes on a 10 Hour side quest .

This is just dreadful. I'm sorry. Its basically a sloppy rehash of the first game's structure that says absolutely nothing about the world and its characters.

The way the game is structured is so we can see both the process and the aftermath of acts of justifiable retribution. Killing Joel doesn't free Abby from her pain, it just brings disaster down upon her and her friends. She still suffers from nightmares, only saving the Seraphite kids gives her any peace.

Here's a thought experiment for you: recast the events of the game except that Joel is the one going on the rampage to avenge Ellie's death. You'd have to rejig Abby's motivations a bit, but otherwise keep everything the same. It all works bar the ending. Because Joel would never, could never, spare Abby. That mercifulness is not part of his established character; he'd rip her fucking heart out and eat it like an apple!

Ellie, fortunately, is not Joel. As much as she loves him, she finally understands the demons that drove him. By letting go at the last she spares herself and those around her of the consequences. The point is that if you submit yourself to the rage, you reap what you sow and salvation and inner peace only exists in altruism and mercy, even in a lawless world like that of TLOU2.

Because you cannot kill them all. And it only takes one to forge the next link in the chain of reciprocal carnage.

 

[Woggleman]

I agree with EDMIX that SJWs and anti-SJWs are two sides two the same coin. They both want to squash creativity and tell creators what to do with their own game. The outrage on Resetera towards Cyberpunk 2077 is a mirror image of the outrage in some corners towards TLOU2 when somebody like me is glad to have both of these games in the same year.

 

[carlosrox]

I'm guessing mostly due to story/character/politics stuff.

While some of it is a bit cringey I thought as a whole it was well done. The outrage was embarrassingly overblown.

And the game itself I thought was pretty incredible. Excellent graphics, animation, atmosphere, gameplay, music. I loved pretty much all of it. And I love the length. The game just kept going and going - in the best way for me.

Whoever hated it simply by virtue of its politics is no better than SJWs crying about shit like Cyberpunk.

Note that I'm not saying everyone who hated it hates it cuz of politics, but some do.

 

[Dunki]

This is just dreadful. I'm sorry. Its basically a sloppy rehash of the first game's structure that says absolutely nothing about the world and its characters.

The way the game is structured is so we can see both the process and the aftermath of acts of justifiable retribution. Killing Joel doesn't free Abby from her pain, it just brings disaster down upon her and her friends. She still suffers from nightmares, only saving the Seraphite kids gives her any peace.

Here's a thought experiment for you: recast the events of the game except that Joel is the one going on the rampage to avenge Ellie's death. You'd have to rejig Abby's motivations a bit, but otherwise keep everything the same. It all works bar the ending. Because Joel would never, could never, spare Abby. That mercifulness is not part of his established character; he'd rip her fucking heart out and eat it like an apple!

Ellie, fortunately, is not Joel. As much as she loves him, she finally understands the demons that drove him. By letting go at the last she spares herself and those around her of the consequences. The point is that if you submit yourself to the rage, you reap what you sow and salvation and inner peace only exists in altruism and mercy, even in a lawless world like that of TLOU2.

Because you cannot kill them all. And it only takes one to forge the next link in the chain of reciprocal carnage.

Not really because in TLOU1 you hat a destination. In TLOU2 you have a goal to kill someone but you have no idea how he looks, where he is etc. This makes it vastly different and on this journey you establish a new Group of characters.

And changing Joel with Ellie does not change ANYTHING. the way you force Characters to change personalities the way you force people to like Abby and to hate Ellie is Amateur level of writing. And Again there is the whole fridging issues people like Druckmann would condemn if this was a women in the same place.

Also it is pretty telling that you think that deamons drove him while in Reality Joel did what most fathers would have done. Hell Even Abbies father is sielent when this topic comes up. He would have done the same for Abby.

The whole story is written so the sotry forces you to feel empathy with Abby. I have already given examples. And the trip to the island is only because of this. Hey Abby save a trans person from a cult she can not be bad and terrible.. So please like her as much as I like her.

 

[Ulysses 31]

The whole story is written so the sotry forces you to feel empathy with Abby. I have already given examples. And the trip to the island is only because of this. Hey Abby save a trans person from a cult she can not be bad and terrible.. So please like her as much as I like her.

It started way earlier than that with Abby and her father helping animals. That whole flashback scene was so obvious in its manipulative intent.

 

[engstra]

My game of the generation along with God of War. While I have some issues with it, such as the final showdown on the island (way too Hollywood blockbuster with large scale battles and fire everywhere and that weird hulk of a man fight) and the way the game introduces some really cool mechanics like the rope and semi-open world to then just abandon them sucks. But the game's writing and world building is just top notch, it made me feel emotions I've never really experienced in a video game before. The way it forces you to make decisions you don't want too and drag you further into feeling like shit is just so well done.

 

[engstra]

edit: accidental double post

 

[Hendrick's]

It's simply not a great game. Awful story with far too many cutscenes to go alongside repetitive and familiar gameplay. Great animations and graphics, but that's about it.

 

[Woggleman]

The descent in that gutted hotel and ground zero at the hospital was just a masterclass in survival horror. It felt like you were going into the bowels of hell. The suburbs were you are going house to house in brutal combat is also great.

 

[The New Guy]

Story & Joel are the main things. Plus the way they handled some of the characters.

If the Story was top notch, I don't think anyone would be complaining about it. Everything else about the game was pretty great. I enjoyed the gameplay and graphics.

 

[Clear]

Not really because in TLOU1 you hat a destination. In TLOU2 you have a goal to kill someone but you have no idea how he looks, where he is etc. This makes it vastly different and on this journey you establish a new Group of characters.

And changing Joel with Ellie does not change ANYTHING. the way you force Characters to change personalities the way you force people to like Abby and to hate Ellie is Amateur level of writing. And Again there is the whole fridging issues people like Druckmann would condemn if this was a women in the same place.

Also it is pretty telling that you think that deamons drove him while in Reality Joel did what most fathers would have done. Hell Even Abbies father is sielent when this topic comes up. He would have done the same for Abby.

The whole story is written so the sotry forces you to feel empathy with Abby. I have already given examples. And the trip to the island is only because of this. Hey Abby save a trans person from a cult she can not be bad and terrible.. So please like her as much as I like her.

Its incredible to me that the people who stan hardest for Joel are the same ones with the least understanding of his psychology and outlook as a character.

Joel does what he does because losing Sarah broke him. His daughter dies and he adopts a nihilistic "survivor" outlook where only him and his matter. The first beneficiary of this is Tommy who eventually splits from him because he cannot stand to live such a hopeless and violent existence. Its all there in the text, Tommy has nightmares thanks to Joel's patented brand of survivalism.

He has become a (metaphorical) demon, which is why when we join him in the present at the start of the first game proper he's acting as Tess's "muscle" and he's clearly more feared than liked in his community.

This is what loss has done to him. He doesn't even want to look at the picture of him with Sarah back in the day because he understands that the man he is, is unrecognizable to the man he was.

The scenario presented in TLOU2 shows 2 versions of a precise inversion of this. Rather than a father dealing with the loss of a daughter, we have daughters avenging the loss of their father figures. By the end of the story Abby is pretty much where Joel ended up at the start of the sequel, whereas Ellie finally having broken the cycle of violence is freed to move onto a better life.

 

[FF:Enhanced_Reality]

The politics are glaringly obvious. It doesn't really bother me personally but they're there and they're pretty blatant.

Look I made a post in another thread about this but the reason this game was so shit is because it fucked killed a core character an hour in. After that I couldn't give a fuck anymore. I didn't go through the emotions and journey of the first one just to have a fuck you moment an hour in. I didn't care about any Abby or her stupid friends. Ellie's relationships were superficial. I nearly lost my shit when I thought they killed Tommy. I'm sorry but when the moral of the story is that vengeance is perfectly fine if you're Abby but absolutely wrong if you're Ellie then something is wrong.

The animation and graphics are out of this world, the best bit I played was when you leave the village at the beginning and you explore the open world with Ellie and Dina. The majority of the game sucked though. It was boring, repetitive and the story, the main thing I played it for, was just bad. It was a bad sequel. It's like destroying your own image and burning everything to the ground to reinvent yourself as an angsty teen with a mid life crisis.

This is why I'm so happy that GoTsu won that award because it was the better game and it did not disappoint.

 

[EDMIX]

I agree with EDMIX that SJWs and anti-SJWs are two sides two the same coin. They both want to squash creativity and tell creators what to do with their own game. The outrage on Resetera towards Cyberpunk 2077 is a mirror image of the outrage in some corners towards TLOU2 when somebody like me is glad to have both of these games in the same year.

Absolutely agreed I'm so surprised most don't see this.

When Anita sarkeesian first came out with that YouTube series one of the things that bothered me the most is her accusations we're completely baseless, they were basically an argument stating that a demographic in a game thus automatically MUST mean some political agenda with very little evidence to support it, its not even to say such a thing is not possible it is to say you still need to prove it and even for argument's sake if somebody did do that with a video game it they're fucking game to do it with. My god people, think about it...it would be like saying someone can't make a book about some religious shit or something. Be like "its an agenda" well sure.....but you don't need to read it and they are free to print it. No, they are not ruining the literally industry as YOU ARE ALSO FREE TO MAKE A FUCKING BOOK, that is not a finite concept.

To my amazement The Gaming Community has basically proceeded to argue her argument simply towards different demographics not even understanding they're arguing the very same argument.

so I completely agree with the people that were against her in that YouTube video in that creators are allowed to make their fucking game, if you don't like it make your own fucking game I will always agree with that point and no one can ever sway me away from that. I see no reason for people to be trying to argue what is "acceptable"

That is the very reason why I'm completely fine with The Last of Us 2 because I don't believe the main character needs to die in some specific way to appease anyone's fucking feelings and I do not believe the main character needs to be some specific demographic as not to trigger someone about politics.

Whenever people make this weird argument that a character needed to have some deep spiritual or psychological meaning to Something in regards to how they died I can't help but to laugh because in real life that's simply not how things go, so why should the game make this fake Fantastical concept to appease people? It's just like the people complaining about the trans people in Cyberpunk 2077, now you guys know I'm a big critic about that game regarding how the developers treated its development but I have nothing negative to say in regards to anything with how they treated trans people because it's their fucking game they don't need to make any big statement regarding trans people in my personal opinion that be existing in the game at all is there statement.

That's it.

It doesn't mean they support one side or the other it's simply arguing that such people exist right now therefore it is within reason they would exist in 2077.

So I don't understand this weird thing of trying to argue any fucking demographic being in a game being about some political ideology or needing to have some significant meeting in order to be in the game.

So I agree I'm completely happy I pre-ordered both of those games and I will have no problem enjoying both of those games regardless of what either side feels about stupid political shit.

Based on both sides arguments no one is fucking allowed in a video game. I'm starting to believe if you put an animal in the video game you're going to have one side arguing that it's cruelty against animals and a secret agenda supported by the meat industry and you're going to get another side arguing that it's a secret agenda for bestiality and to take "politics" out of games.... lol

 

[Iced Arcade]

Main character dying quick and dirty like a random hobo and some felt their masculinity was threatened?

Actually enjoyed it once I ignored all the political and social justice forced stuff, probably my SP goty honestly.

Am I the only one who wanted Ellie to die at the end?

 

[xiskza]

Weak story and lame characters getting the spotlight.

Druckman being a little bitch about people not liking his game only soured fans even more to ND.

 

[K.S v2.0]

Because Joel-In-One just is not cool bro. I don't care how ma'am Abby is.

 

[PSX2007]

Anybody that played the game (and it has the best completion rate of any game in PlayStation 4) can see:

• The revenge cycle theme is fantastic.
• The story is deep and keep you engaged to know what it will happen next.
• Characters are great with it own complications with amazing development (I can't find one to be bad).
• The gameplay is again flawless... it is perfection.
• The enemy variety is now way better.
• The weapons and craft items are way better than original.
• The world and environment are fantastic.
• Side activities are great.
• It humanizes all sides... it is impactful and emotionally driven.

The game is everything a sequel should be.
It is a must to play even if you get down due violence.

So I really can't understand the hate some GAFers has with one of the best games ever created.

PS. I really can't even understand the political controversy... I really can't see politics in the game... maybe because I'm not American? I don't know.

Edit - Making this thread just me miss even more Factions MP... I blamed ND for that and I will continue doing that because that decision was utter shit.

I agree with everything except "gameplay is again flawless." I overall loved the game, but I did find Ellie's half a bit tedious and boring. It was a lot of exploring empty storefronts for items that I didn't need and repetitive firefights. For me, the game picked up tremendously once Abby's half hit.

 

[DustQueen]

The cycle of TLOU 2 threads... It never changes.

 

[EruditeHobo]

If you disagree then that's cool. Everyone has their own preferences.

Agreed.

I don't know why so many people here seem to think that they'll somehow convince people to agree that a game they do not like is actually good.

People are on the other side, doing the same exact thing -- arguing to argue, restating points over and over, ignoring specific points and contradictions in their argument. It's just a people thing, it's not this side vs that side.

I didn't like the story, the characters or the gameplay and I found the world to be a bit boring. I didn't like the game. In fact, I really hated it.

That's fine. But this is different than someone making a claim about the quality of an individual object...

"I hate TLoU2" is a statement that CANNOT be wrong. And you're welcome to it! I don't even think people that love TLoU2 would argue with you on that specific point. But "TLoU2 is a badly-made video game" is a statement that CAN be wrong. And that's why this has gone on for months, people have been digging into those statements and underlying arguments. Hence the back and forth you mentioned in your post above.