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[Chris Remo]

what's funny is that it's the complete opposite for me. the more and more i see of ps3 and 360 games the more i realize just how much i have really outgrown "traditional" gaming. sure i'm and hd owning, hi-def lover but i just don't find the ps3/360 games to be all that compelling. I like to marvel over their sheer technical beauty in screenshots/trailers but i really don't have any desire to actually pic up and play any of them.

I feel this way more and more as well. THIS IS NOT A "OMG WII INNOVATIVE" POST, there are a lot of Wii games that fall into this category too, and they're even worse because they don't have the next-gen visuals either. That said, the vast majority of stuff on 360 and PS3 that I've seen so far is not all that compelling to me in terms of stuff I actually plan on buying and playing. There are definitely games I'm anticipating on all three platforms, but these latest PS3 trailers are more "impressive" to me than "compelling."

 

[jiggle]

We have 360 and PS3 to push graphics in this gen.... but Wii to provide fresh new aespect in gaming.

360 and PS3 won't have Zelda or Fire Emblem to push next gen graphics with.

 

[snatches]

gee snatches, you just can't win around here. you made some good and valid points in a very civil manner. but you and me, we both know where this thread is heading. it's a shame really, cause i can totally relate and i wish we could have this discussion. but yeah...

Thanks, and yeah:

You're not a gamer, you're a graphic whore.

I see what you mean.

 

[Dizzy]

I think this show actually made PS360 seem more viable.

That's true....for now.

At E3 it was all about Wii60, now everyone seems to want PS360. It will be interesting to see what happens after this.

 

[koam]

Why can't he be both?

Because then he'd be getting the Wii for the gameplay and the 360/ps3 for the graphics. He's only looking at the PS3/360 option. Besides, the only reason he's dimissive about the wii is because of the graphics. I can understand if there were no good games coming out for it but that's not the case.

 

[Trident]

I want a Wii because I have friends and not 8 hours a day to spend in a dark room leveling up anime characters.

 

[mrklaw]

I hate almost every touch screen game so far (except Kirby Canvas Curse), think the dual screen is utterly useless and the Nintendo DS was the true start of my growing unhappy with Nintendo's latest direction.

wow. OK then. BTW, agree on the dual screens, disagree on the touch screen (mostly)

 

[Amir0x]

I want a Wii because I have friends and not 8 hours a day to spend in a dark room leveling up anime characters.

hahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

jarosh was right. This thread is heading places. Welcome to bullshitville.

wow. OK then. BTW, agree on the dual screens, disagree on the touch screen (mostly)

Yeah, this is why Wii worries me. At least DS, third parties support it because it's the most successful and even with the shitty N64-era 3D graphics, at least there are such games where I can't ignore the platform despite Nintendo's increasing focus on crap. If it has Megaman ZX and CastlevaniaoR, gotta just live with it right?

But Wii has NONE of this compelling third party support, and Nintendo's own offerings include many Gamecube ports and/or yet more games in the same nintendo franchises

 

[The Bookerman]

As interesting as the Wiimote is, as a hardcore gamer I just don't know if I can handle last gen visuals. [/B]

I understand what you're saying. I hope Factor 5 comes back to Wii and shows to those other devs how it's done. Cause quite frankly, I'm a 100% sure most developers don't know how to get the most out of the gamecube architechture(the Wii has the same architecture as the GC).

 

[snatches]

I mean really, I expected SO much more out of the next-gen Nintendo games. Mario looks great but on everything else I'm with you....looks so last gen. I kept waiting for Nintendo to wow me since E3...but they have done absolutely nothing since. Sony's deffinitely won me over more, but then again, I never had a problem with them outside of price. And that is still an issue. But an issue I know will eventually get resolved whereas the Wii's power won't.

I know, it's like the "I may be fat but I can lose weight, you'll always be ugly" situation.

 

[Logan Cano]

Not getting one either. I don't agree that gamers should have to put up with last gen graphics for another 5 years just because they happen to make Zelda and Mario. Videogames visuals are an intrinsic and incredibly important part of the media, and to neglect them was stupid IMO.

I'm definitely getting a PS3 next year and probably get a 360 once the premium is $200 or lower. LO looks pretty good and Infinte Undiscovery has me interested, if those didn't exist, I'd be a definite PS3 only owner.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I see what you mean.

Except you pretty much said that in your post.

 

[snatches]

Because then he'd be getting the Wii for the gameplay and the 360/ps3 for the graphics. He's only looking at the PS3/360 option. Besides, the only reason he's dimissive about the wii is because of the graphics. I can understand if there were no good games coming out for it but that's not the case.

How can you deduct I am not interested in the Wii? Have you read my posts? I am torturing myself about this....

The control scheme might end up being out of this world but damn, I have to look at the damn game the whole time I play it, don't I?

Why shouldn't I get hung up on visuals?

 

[Tain]

What does being a hardcore gamer have to do with graphics?

Stop it, please.

Games are a visual medium.

If you genuinely believe that graphics (either technological advancements or "good art") do nothing for games, I'm glad that the industry doesn't care about what you think.

Same logic says that audio and presentation are useless, too.

 

[LakeEarth]

A "hardcore gamer" not being able to handle lesser quality visuals? Does not compute.

Exactly. I think a hardcore gamer is the exact opposite, giving any game a chance no matter what it looks like. IE Cubivore.

 

[Amir0x]

How can you deduct I am not interested in the Wii? Have you read my posts? I am torturing myself about this....

The control scheme might end up being out of this world but damn, I have to look at the damn game the whole time I play it, don't I?

Why shouldn't I get hung up on visuals?

Not only that, the argument is that Wii apparently has lots of good software in the pipeline: maybe that's true, but as of what's announced imo that is as far from reality as possible.

 

[Chao]

it's a Gamecube game.

That makes Zelda bad?

 

[snatches]

But Wii has NONE of this compelling third party support, and Nintendo's own offerings include many Gamecube ports and/or yet more games in the same nintendo franchises

Yeah, it hurts. When I heard about Ubi's support I got excited. But everything they have showed looks like HORRIBLE PS2 PORT JOBS. Just terrible.

The best third party game announced for Wii is a ****ing atlus game. What the hell.

 

[Oblivion]

I'm feeling the same way, and have been for a long time. I love Nintendo, but as time went on this past year, with hearing stuff like Wii is not going to be able to do HD, not going to be able to have 5.1 DD, just a souped up GC with no new shaders, and a controlelr which is interesting, but ultimately flawed for many types of games, and to top it off, the higher than expected price tag and controller prices with what seems to be a lame online system (friend codes again wtf?!), I can't really support them like I did before.

Zelda: TP looks ****ing fantastic on the GC, but there are games that have been shown for 360 and PS3 that look far better, and it pains me to realize that the next Zelda won't be able to match those games because of far inferior hardware. Yeah, the gameplay will probably still be excellent, but who wouldn't love a new Zelda that looks like Kameo, with HDR, dazzling water effects, parallax mapping and all that good stuff.

I will definitely be getting a Wii for Zelda, Mario Galaxy and SSBB alone, but these are the only worthwhile things I see for the Wii right now. Much like how the N64 seemed like a far better console when the GC came out, so too does the GC look better against Wii. :/

 

[koam]

I know, it's like the "I may be fat but I can lose weight, you'll always be ugly" situation.

I'm not so sure about that. The wii is at least twice as powerful than the cube, and has a lot more ram. The games were seeing now are gamecube quality and not even high-end gamecube, mostly midrange. There's still plenty of room for improvement and within a year or two, we should start seeing wii games that look like wii games, instead of gamecube.

How can you deduct I am not interested in the Wii? Have you read my posts? I am torturing myself about this....

The control scheme might end up being out of this world but damn, I have to look at the damn game the whole time I play it, don't I?

Why shouldn't I get hung up on visuals?

I didn't say you weren't interested, i said you were being dismissive because of the graphics. I understand your graphic concerns, we all have them, but it doesn't change the fact that the wii will be a fun console to have, especially if you've got friends who come over often enough.

You also have to keep in mind, 90% of the wii software that's coming out in the first year is shovelware from last gen that's just being ported over and getting wii controls slapped on. When you look at the games that are being built from ground up on the wii, you'll notice the graphics are a lot better. Even Red Steel is starting to look better as we see new builds. Excite Truck looks pretty decent. Mario and SSBB look great. Metroid Prime 3 has improved a lot over E3. Raving Rabbids looks good.

 

[snatches]

Exactly. I think a hardcore gamer is the exact opposite, giving any game a chance no matter what it looks like. IE Cubivore.

Cubivore was a riot back in the 90's on my 27" Mits. Now the scaling artifacts will hurt my eyes damnit.

 

[Epicus.Furor]

Wii Now, PS3 Next Year.

Graphics don't mean fun, they are just a plus.

 

[snatches]

Wii Now, PS3 Next Year.

Graphics don't mean fun, they are just a plus.

and when they are bad, a minus, amirite?

 

[mrklaw]

But Wii has NONE of this compelling third party support, and Nintendo's own offerings include many Gamecube ports and/or yet more games in the same nintendo franchises

very good point. I'm relatively happy to spend some money to just play Nintendo games. Both N64 and Gamecube were pretty much that to me already, so its no real change. But they have to keep their core franchises going and give us some new ones (like pikmin was).

And I mean 'proper' games. I like the non-game stuff too, but only as an addition to the normal Nintendo magic.

 

[Chris Remo]

Not getting one either. I don't agree that gamers should have to put up with last gen graphics for another 5 years just because they happen to make Zelda and Mario. Videogames visuals are an intrinsic and incredibly important part of the media, and to neglect them was stupid IMO.

I think that's the wrong way to intepret it. Like everyone else, I'd love to see Zelda and Metroid and whatever in HD, but I'm genuinely glad one of the companies is taking this route. It might as well be Nintendo, but I'd be fine with it being any of the three. The controller is a secondary thing to me. I'm just worried that, as awesome as crazy next-gen visuals are, it will really shut out a lot of smaller devs. Live Arcade is wonderful, but I think it's important to have something in between small scale Live Arcade and having to compete with huge insane next-gen high-def games.

It's pretty frustrating that so much of what third parties are putting on Wii right now is shovelware, but I'm hopeful it will become a viable platform for smaller devs who don't want to (or can't) risk investing in PS3/360 development but still want to do something more ambitious than a 50MB XBLA game. That's the biggest reason I'm looking forward to the system, more than the controller, more than Virtual Console, etc.

It could even be good for larger publishers. For example, maybe Ubisoft doesn't want to expend a billion dollars to put Beyond Good & Evil on PS3/360, but they could justify a smaller budget on Wii, and Ancel loves the system anyway and could make it look great, and if he could restrain himself from mini-game mania, it would be amazing. That's the type of thing I think this system could be great for.


EDIT: I don't know if this stuff will happen on Wii. I just don't think it's very feasible on 360/PS3. This is just my ideal scenario. Again, I will have all three machines.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Stop it, please.

Games are a visual medium.

If you genuinely believe that graphics (either technological advancements or "good art") do nothing for games, I'm glad that the industry doesn't care about what you think.

Same logic says that audio and presentation are useless, too.

It's not that they do nothing for them. They're just not as important as other factors to me. It plays second fiddle. Music is dead last and presentation floats somewhere in the middle.
****, I play half of my handhelds mute.
But the point is, gameplay is king. And I guarantee you 90% of the launch PS3 games will suck ass, no matter how good they look. It's the law of launch games. It happened with the 360, will happen to the Wii. Nothing is free from this.

 

[mrklaw]

It could even be good for larger publishers. For example, maybe Ubisoft doesn't want to expend a billion dollars to put Beyond Good & Evil on PS3/360, but they could justify a smaller budget on Wii, and Ancel loves the system anyway and could make it look great, and if he could restrain himself from mini-game mania, it would be amazing. That's the type of thing I think this system could be great for.

problem is, if Wii gets too detached from the other two big boys, it becomes more of a risk to develop on it. Way less technology and a completely different control method mean simple ports become difficult ports.

The current transition means there are plenty of current gen assets and teams around, so developing for what is effectively a Gamecube or Xbox is easy. But as the next gen gets rolling, it'll get more and more difficult (and therefore expensive) to backport to something like Wii

The only way around that is if its a huge success and therefore justifies development investment off its own bat. Otherwise I think 3rd party support will just dry up.

 

[dyls]

Not getting one either. I don't agree that gamers should have to put up with last gen graphics for another 5 years just because they happen to make Zelda and Mario. Videogames visuals are an intrinsic and incredibly important part of the media, and to neglect them was stupid IMO.

So are controls yet no one seems to mind that they haven't changed a lick in 10 years. Controls are eve more intrinsic than visuals seeing as how it's interaction that seperates games from movies, not visuals. Games will always be a huge step behind CG movies in terms of visuals.

I'm leaning more towards PSWii. I'll buy Wii at launch and PS3 when it gets down to $350 or less. The 360 just seems redundant to me, (I'm not a huge online player) as I'm not expecting nearly the variety of genres that the PS3 will have, nor the charm of Nintendo's titles. If I cared more about online play I would probably feel differently.

 

[Peru]

But Wii has NONE of this compelling third party support, and Nintendo's own offerings include many Gamecube ports and/or yet more games in the same nintendo franchises

Certainly an easy argument to use now, but the DS launch was bleaker, from first and third party both. So before you make hasty judgements about the difference between the DS and the Wii support, let's wait and see how things develop. There's little doubt that if the Wii sells, the software will be made.

 

[Y2Kev]

I like games. Wii for me.

Oh rk, come on.

I HATE GAMES SO PS3 FOR ME

 

[Trident]

hahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

jarosh was right. This thread is heading places. Welcome to bullshitville.

Shh.. I'm having fun.

 

[snatches]

problem is, if Wii gets too detached from the other two big boys, it becomes more of a risk to develop on it. Way less technology and a completely different control method mean simple ports become difficult ports.

The current transition means there are plenty of current gen assets and teams around, so developing for what is effectively a Gamecube or Xbox is easy. But as the next gen gets rolling, it'll get more and more difficult (and therefore expensive) to backport to something like Wii

The only way around that is if its a huge success and therefore justifies development investment off its own bat. Otherwise I think 3rd party support will just dry up.

I agree with this post. I would bet that as soon as 3rd parties start abandoning the ps2 the Wii will follow suit. Look at how 3rd parties have been profiting off the 360 userbase. I can't see Wii fans buying much besides 1st party titles. Nintendo continues to be their own worst enemy.

 

[dyls]

problem is, if Wii gets too detached from the other two big boys, it becomes more of a risk to develop on it. Way less technology and a completely different control method mean simple ports become difficult ports.

The current transition means there are plenty of current gen assets and teams around, so developing for what is effectively a Gamecube or Xbox is easy. But as the next gen gets rolling, it'll get more and more difficult (and therefore expensive) to backport to something like Wii

I don't see it ever costing more to make a Wii game than a PS3/360 game. They're in completely different leagues.

 

[fortified_concept]

Buy a PS3 son. I've given up on Nintendo from E3's Nintendo conference when I saw the graphics. I agree that gameplay is more important than graphics but enough is enough. I'm not going back and I'll never defend them again. And with the 250 price point things are even worse. Better save 250 more and buy the next-gen console with better lineup and amazing next-gen graphics. I mean c'mon after TGS does anyone still doubt what PS3 can deliver (

Spoiler

delusional fanboys excluded

)?

 

[Ryu]

Whats your position on the DS? I'd have said that was 'faux-innovation' around launch, but after the initial frenzy of shit wrapped around a touch screen input, things have settled down nicely, with developers realising they can use some, all or none of the new inputs to deliver good games.

I hope for the same from Wii, even if most of the launch games have you flailing like a loon.

The thing about the Wii, at least as far as I know, you can't just forego the controller and plug in a different one and use that for the games much like you can ignore the stylus and touch screen of the DSL. The Wii is not just another released console. Just imagine how different the DSL Would be if the D-pad were gone and the stylus was a requirement for every game...

 

[Aft Dread Pressure]

I won't be able to play Smash Bros Brawl without a Wii.
I won't be able to play Metal Gear Solid 4 without a PS3.

Soblem Prolved.

 

[kojacker]

The OP really sums upa lot of my feelings. A year ago I was thinking Wii only. But as time went on it became obvious that the Wii was never going to satisify me on it's own. And Ive heard too many bad things about the controller so I'm starting to go off it as well. I want a Wii for my favourite franchises, but I'm not sure I want to play them with that controller. Also, some of the graphics have been awful - last gen would be generous. I guess I'm pretty shallow.

With the Sony delay in EU, the later (than I thought) release of the Wii (plus higher price), I'm considering just going up the road and purchasing the x360. I want to get to next gen sooner rather than later. I had the original Xbox but thought it was rubbish. I bought it for only one game, the packed in JSRF, and bought only one other (Timesplitters 2). Yes, I have had an Xbox for over three years and have only bought one game for it (and it's faulty drive chewed up my JSRF disc). But the x360 gaming lineup is shaping up pretty well. And I think it's pretty good value and available now.

I want a PS3, but I'm pissed at Sony for the EU delay. But if we can get the Japan discount over here I know I'll buy it. I want the JPN centric stuff, networking, and IP camera.

So what this long rambling post is saying, is that where I was once a Wii only n-tard I'm now thinking of buying everything but it. I guess it's that I fear the Wii was made more for casuals than general gamers. At this moment I've lost my interest in it.

 

[jimbo]

Because then he'd be getting the Wii for the gameplay and the 360/ps3 for the graphics. He's only looking at the PS3/360 option. Besides, the only reason he's dimissive about the wii is because of the graphics. I can understand if there were no good games coming out for it but that's not the case.

Yeah because PS3 and 360 won't have good gameplay. WTF? This is the real deal: The PS3 and 360 WILL give you both great gameplay AND next-gen visuals. The Wii will only get you one of the two.

And btw, when a developer goes out of their way and invest a buttload of cash to make sure their games are one of the best looking games, 90% of the time, they do the same to the gameplay aspects of the game. And if you look back to last gen a high percentage of the graphical masterpieces, were also the ones with some of the best gameplay: MGS, Halo, Splinter Cell, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Soul Calibur, VF, etc etc etc.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Oh rk, come on.

I HATE GAMES SO PS3 FOR ME

What? I like games so PS3 too for me. I said nothing about the PS3 and **** I own a 360.
I like games.

 

[MadraptorMan]

The thing about the Wii, at least as far as I know, you can't just forego the controller and plug in a different one and use that for the games much like you can ignore the stylus and touch screen of the DSL. The Wii is not just another released console. Just imagine how different the DSL Would be if the D-pad were gone and the stylus was a requirement for every game...

The Wiimote + nunchuk setup is, for the most part, perfectly capable of being used as a regular controller. It obviously foregoes the need for dual analog...but that is supposed to be improvement as opposed to a limitation.

 

[snatches]

So are controls yet no one seems to mind that they haven't changed a lick in 10 years. Controls are eve more intrinsic than visuals seeing as how it's interaction that seperates games from movies, not visuals. Games will always be a huge step behind CG movies in terms of visuals.

Let me say this:

Nintendo is a generation ahead of its time. 3D is finally coming into its own with 360 and ps3 and next next (?) gen, the Wiimote would probably be a welcome addition. For now, I haven't seen everything there is to see with my dualshock, wavebird, etc. These current games on display are mind blowing, and I wan't to explore these landscapes with a familiar control scheme.

 

[Branduil]

In before Amir0x whines about "waggle." Oh, wait.

To the OP, if there are games on the Wii you want to play, get it. If not, don't. It's as simple as that. I personally think games like MP3, Zelda, and SMG look beautiful, even if they are not next-gen. But more importantly, they look just plain fun. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Ryu]

That makes Zelda bad?

Not at all, it just means Zelda can be had on a console that's 70 bucks, not 250.

 

[M_A_C]

That makes Zelda bad?

No, it just makes it not worth $300 when you can get it on the Gamecube.

^^^ Yeah!

 

[Ranger X]

Just curious, I am not trying to single anyone out but:

For those who are saying they have no problem with "last gen" visuals, do you have HDTV's? Because that is definitely part of my "problem".

I see what you did there!
Seriously, for the $$$ an HDTV that is "good enough for me" would cost it's not worth it right now.
Right now i'm confortable with my 32 inch SDTV with component seriously.
Also, it's not like i wouldn't replay what's in my gaming library and right now the upscaling sucks so much in most HDTVs that it actually make low res games look worse --- therefore it isn't interesting for me.

 

[Y2Kev]

What? I like games so PS3 too for me. I said nothing about the PS3 and **** I own a 360.
I like games.

You said, "I like games. Wii for me." as if to imply there was some kind of correlation there.

I mean...it isn't the equivalent of saying, "I like food. Pastrami for me."

But I understand what you mean.

 

[snatches]

Yeah because PS3 and 360 won't have good gameplay. WTF? This is the real deal: The PS3 and 360 WILL give you both great gameplay AND next-gen visuals. The Wii will only get you one of the two.

And btw, when a developer goes out of their way and invest a buttload of cash to make sure their games are one of the best looking games, 90% of the time, they do the same to the gameplay aspects of the game. And if you look back to last gen a high percentage of the graphical masterpieces, were also the ones with some of the best gameplay: MGS, Halo, Splinter Cell, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Soul Calibur, VF, etc etc etc.

That is a great point and an angle I hadn't realized yet. You can throw Wind Waker and MP: Prime in with that list. Part of the reason those two games hooked me instantly was due to the fact that they were visually amazing in their own respective ways.

Nice post.

 

[Tain]

It's not that they do nothing for them. They're just not as important as other factors to me. It plays second fiddle. Music is dead last and presentation floats somewhere in the middle.
****, I play half of my handhelds mute.
But the point is, gameplay is king.

I can understand and respect that.

But, just looking at this forum, people play Katamari Damacy, the Silent Hill games, classic LucasArts games, Rez, and tons of others that rely on non-gameplay elements moreso than gameplay elements. Hell, you can even throw some RPGs in this category. How many people would play RPGs if they were nothing but completely storyless dungeon crawlers?

actually, don't answer that last one.

It just blows my mind that some people think that being a "hardcore gamer" means that you cannot care or complain about how a game looks (or sounds, or whatever else) as long as it "plays well".

And I guarantee you 90% of the launch PS3 games will suck ass, no matter how good they look. It's the law of launch games. It happened with the 360, will happen to the Wii. Nothing is free from this.

Oh, I definitely agree with this.

 

[Ranger X]

problem is, if Wii gets too detached from the other two big boys, it becomes more of a risk to develop on it. Way less technology and a completely different control method mean simple ports become difficult ports.

The current transition means there are plenty of current gen assets and teams around, so developing for what is effectively a Gamecube or Xbox is easy. But as the next gen gets rolling, it'll get more and more difficult (and therefore expensive) to backport to something like Wii

The only way around that is if its a huge success and therefore justifies development investment off its own bat. Otherwise I think 3rd party support will just dry up.

Actually it won't be riskier to make a game for Wii because it will be so cheap to make a game that putting out an exclusive or a version for that console would not look like too much risk. Also, downgrading still is the easier way to port.

 

[thefro]

480p games look perfectly fine on HD.

I played my GC for a year on a huuuge HDtv a few years ago when I was in college and I had no problem with the "ugly graphics".