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Wii U and Limited/Full RGB Range

dcx4610

Member
Dec 4, 2012
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555
I figured I would make a topic out of this so more people would see it and get a better picture out of their Wii U.

The Wii U currently only supports Limited RGB range while the 360, XB1 (currently broken) PS3 and PS4 support full range.

With Limited RGB range you are seeing colors 16-235. With Full, you are seeing 0-255.

I had noticed when playing my Wii U, the picture seemed a bit washed out. The blacks were grey and the colors just didn't pop as much as the other systems.

After a bit of checking around, I noticed my TV was set to "Full RGB" range. After all, why would you NOT want full range? This is typically the default setting on most newer TVs.

Well, the problem is if the source (Wii U) is sending a Limited RGB signal to a TV that is set for Full RGB, it's attempting to display a range it can't read. If you set your TV to Limited, the ranges now match and it looks fantastic. The blacks are black and the colors pop.

The unfortunate side is the same holds true in reverse. If you switch over to the PS4 and it is set to Full RGB while your TV is set to Limited now, your PS4 will appear washed out since it's expecting full range and can't display them.

Here are a few options:

Option 1. If you are lucky, your TV will have a "Auto" mode in addition to Full and Limited RGB which will automatically detect the range and adjust accordingly.

Option 2 - Manually switch to Limited RGB on your TV when playing the Wii U.

Option 3 - Set your TV and all consoles to Limited RGB.

Option 4 - Petition Nintendo to add Full RGB support.

For those that are disappointed with the Wii U picture quality, check your TVs RGB range and set it to Limited or Auto. You'll be impressed.
 

Vashetti

Banned
Oct 3, 2012
20,160
2
0
United Kingdom
I figured I would make a topic out of this so more people would see it and get a better picture out of their Wii U.

The Wii U currently only supports Limited RGB range while the 360, XB1 (currently broken) PS3 and PS4 support full range.

With Limited RGB range you are seeing colors 16-235. With Full, you are seeing 0-255.

I had noticed when playing my Wii U, the picture seemed a bit washed out. The blacks were grey and the colors just didn't pop as much as the other systems.

After a bit of checking around, I noticed my TV was set to "Full RGB" range. After all, why would you NOT want full range? This is typically the default setting on most newer TVs.

Well, the problem is if the source (Wii U) is sending a Limited RGB signal to a TV that is set for Full RGB, it's attempting to display a range it can't read. If you set your TV to Limited, the ranges now match and it looks fantastic. The blacks are black and the colors pop.

The unfortunate side is the same holds true in reverse. If you switch over to the PS4 and it is set to Full RGB while your TV is set to Limited now, your PS4 will appear washed out since it's expecting full range and can't display them.

Here are a few options:

Option 1. If you are lucky, your TV will have a "Auto" mode in addition to Full and Limited RGB which will automatically detect the range and adjust accordingly.

Option 2 - Manually switch to Limited RGB on your TV when playing the Wii U.

Option 3 - Set your TV and all consoles to Limited RGB.

Option 4 - Petition Nintendo to add Full RGB support.

For those that are disappointed with the Wii U picture quality, check your TVs RGB range and set it to Limited or Auto. You'll be impressed.
 

drotahorror

Member
Mar 21, 2014
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I emailed them about this (I only use a monitor and it only supports full range RGB) and got this response :



Hello,

Thanks for sharing your comments with us, I apologize for the delayed response to your email. I am sorry to hear that your picture is not a clear as it should be when using your Wii U console with your monitor. I can certainly understand why you would like us to add that setting to the Wii U, I myself prefer to hook up my gaming systems through my monitor.

I’ll make sure that what you said about full range RGB will be forwarded, so your feedback will be heard. While I can’t guarantee that we’ll make the type of changes you suggested, we do take all feedback into consideration.

You can be sure that Nintendo is constantly at work developing new and exciting product and game ideas. Keep checking our website's “What’s New” section (http://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew) for the latest information and announcements.

Sincerely,

Nintendo of America Inc.
Laura Knotts


Tis a shame. Got a Wii U for xmas and it definitely put a damper on me playing it. Barely even touch the thing as I'm disappointed with the washed out colors.
 

Damian.

Banned
Jun 19, 2012
2,137
0
0
I emailed them about this (I only use a monitor and it only supports full range RGB) and got this response :



Hello,

Thanks for sharing your comments with us, I apologize for the delayed response to your email. I am sorry to hear that your picture is not a clear as it should be when using your Wii U console with your monitor. I can certainly understand why you would like us to add that setting to the Wii U, I myself prefer to hook up my gaming systems through my monitor.

I’ll make sure that what you said about full range RGB will be forwarded, so your feedback will be heard. While I can’t guarantee that we’ll make the type of changes you suggested, we do take all feedback into consideration.

You can be sure that Nintendo is constantly at work developing new and exciting product and game ideas. Keep checking our website's “What’s New” section (http://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew) for the latest information and announcements.

Sincerely,

Nintendo of America Inc.
Laura Knotts


Tis a shame. Got a Wii U for xmas and it definitely put a damper on me playing it. Barely even touch the thing as I'm disappointed with the washed out colors.
I emailed them as well a couple of months back here is my response, let's see how they match up:

Hello XXXXXXX,

I'm glad you've taken the time to write us. I would like to first apologize for the delay in our response. We have been especially busy and thank you for your patience as we reply.

In regard to your email, I can certainly understand why you would like to see us add a full range RGB mode to the Wii U console. While I haven't heard of any plans to add such a feature, we appreciate hearing how we can improve our products. As such, I'll make sure that what you said is forwarded for further review. While I can't guarantee that we'll do as you suggested, we do take all feedback into consideration.

If or when we update the Wii U console with a full range RGB mode, you can be sure we will share all of the exciting details at our website (http://nintendo.com), so be sure to check back from time to time.


Sincerely,

Nintendo of America Inc.

Curtis Neal
Not too canned of a reply, that's something at least.
 

Xav

Member
Dec 12, 2006
4,378
2
0
This is how I have my setup running...

Xbox 360 Reference Level = STANDARD (Limited)

PlayStation 3/4 RGB Range = LIMITED

Wii U = Doesn't have an option, limited by default.

I then set my HDMI black level on my Samsung TV to LOW. In my experience full RGB range on consoles just results in crushed blacks.

I think I'm doing it right but I'm not very well educated on this stuff.
 

Damian.

Banned
Jun 19, 2012
2,137
0
0
Perfect.

Honestly, unless you're using a monitor, you should all be using Limited on a properly calibrated panel.
I have my PC hooked up to my TV, limited is atrocious no matter how properly calibrated it is. My cable box looks the same limited or full, unfortunately the Wii U is the only component that fails to work with full range on my TV and I have to manually set it to limited each time I play.
 

Team Vernia

Member
May 18, 2007
15,503
5
1,140
As long as your settings match, you really shouldn't see much different between limited and full range. I have noticed that the PS4 will auto-select Full Range on TVs that automatically select the right setting, though.
 

iMax

Member
Dec 5, 2012
13,413
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I have my PC hooked up to my TV, limited is atrocious no matter how properly calibrated it is. My cable box looks the same limited or full, unfortunately the Wii U is the only component that fails to work with full range on my TV and I have to manually set it to limited each time I play.
Good point. PCs should be set to Full but everything else should really be Limited.
 

drotahorror

Member
Mar 21, 2014
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480
I then set my HDMI black level on my Samsung TV to LOW. In my experience full RGB range on consoles just results in crushed blacks.

I think I'm doing it right but I'm not very well educated on this stuff.
If your TV is not set to Full Range RGB, or doesn't support it, then yes you will experience jacked up colors and crushed blacks. For people that only have full range, having a console that doesn't support full range will result in washed out colors.

Nintendo is the only console maker that doesn't support Full Range since the 360/ps3 generation. So even 9 year old systems supported it.

Nintendo does not like changes as I'm sure most know.

When I emailed them I even suggested burying it in the options somewhere where most would not find it so people wouldn't mistakenly enable it. It's just such a simple (I think atleast) option to add.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
Jun 18, 2004
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this is really not the issue almost anyone who makes it one actually is.

if limited/full on your TV or console is BROKEN, that is an issue.
If your TV doesn't support Auto (or it is broken) and you absolutely insist on using some Full and are stuck with some Limited, it can be annoying at best.

but really... if your TV doesn't support auto (or it's broken), just set everything to Limited. because unless a device actually has its RGB mode broken (i.e. XBONE) it really isn't a thread-worthy subject.

It's really annoying having to change the setting on my tv every time I want to play a wii u game.
umm... so just set your TV to Limited for everything?
 

Vashetti

Banned
Oct 3, 2012
20,160
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When watching a Blu-ray film on your PS3, PS4 or XB1, you should have it set to Limited.

Blu-ray films are encoded in Limited range, you WILL get crushed blacks if your console is set to Full.

Uninformed people see it like this:

Limited = Bad
Full = Good

Because Limited suggests a shortcoming.
 

drotahorror

Member
Mar 21, 2014
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this is really not the issue almost anyone who makes it one actually is.

if limited/full on your TV or console is BROKEN, that is an issue.
If your TV doesn't support Auto (or it is broken) and you absolutely insist on using some Full and are stuck with some Limited, it can be annoying at best.

but really... if your TV doesn't support auto (or it's broken), just set everything to Limited. because unless a device actually has its RGB mode broken (i.e. XBONE) it really isn't a thread-worthy subject.
It's mainly a monitor issue. I have my AV receiver, PC and all my consoles hooked up to it using my monitor. The only other TV I have to hook up the Wii U to is too small for me to play on and play comfortably. Plus I miss out on surround sound and the convenience of having everything hooked up to one hub.
 

Waylon Drums

Member
Oct 31, 2012
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I've never paid any attention to this but I'm sure that if I looked at the RGB settings on my TV at any point, I probably set it to "Full" because that sounds better than "Limited" so I'll have to look into it when I get home.


Some parts of the Metroid Prime games in the trilogy have been looking drab...would this be why?
 

Vashetti

Banned
Oct 3, 2012
20,160
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I've never paid any attention to this but I'm sure that if I looked at the RGB settings on my TV at any point, I probably set it to "Full" because that sounds better than "Limited" so I'll have to look into it when I get home.


Some parts of the Metroid Prime games in the trilogy have been looking drab...would this be why?
Set it to Limited.
 

Damian.

Banned
Jun 19, 2012
2,137
0
0
When watching a Blu-ray film on your PS3, PS4 or XB1, you should have it set to Limited.

Blu-ray films are encoded in Limited range, you WILL get crushed blacks if your console is set to Full.

Uninformed people see it like this:

Limited = Bad
Full = Good

Because Limited suggests a shortcoming.
I never had a problem watching BluRays on the PS3 when setting it to Full.
 

Brianimaniac

Banned
Jun 1, 2013
4,557
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What kind of TV do you have that doesn't let you have different settings for each input? That sounds like a huge design oversight.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
Jun 18, 2004
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Uninformed people see it like this:

Limited = Bad
Full = Good

Because Limited suggests a shortcoming.
this this this this this. You force your device to Full because your display doesn't have Limited as an option (i.e. a monitor). You force your display to Full because your device defaults to full (PC). Outside of those two just leave everything set to Auto. If your TV doesn't have an auto setting you are better off setting it to Limited more than you are Full thanks to OTA, cable/dish, DVD, Blu-ray, STBs, etc.

It's mainly a monitor issue. I have my AV receiver, PC and all my consoles hooked up to it using my monitor. The only other TV I have to hook up the Wii U to is too small for me to play on and play comfortably. Plus I miss out on surround sound and the convenience of having everything hooked up to one hub.
Wii U to a monitor can definitely be an issue. Is it a monitor that supports HDMI-in?
 

Rolf NB

Member
Apr 22, 2007
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In my case I have 3 components running through a receiver to one input on my TV.
To splice out the audio I presume?
Or does your TV only have one HDMI input?

Maybe your TV has an optical audio out you could use instead.
 

madmook

Member
May 17, 2006
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I like gaming on a monitor, which is full rgb only, so I have been waiting for Nintendo to add this option. Hopefully it is added in a firmware update.

Makes me angry, though, that they didn't think or bother to do this, despite coming in so late to the "HD" world. They had how many goddamn years to see what the 360 and PS3 did, and they still left out this basic setting. >_<
 

Raist

Banned
Jan 27, 2007
24,544
0
0
had no idea that Full wasn't necessarily better. I'm gonna double check all of my settings tonight. thanks gaf!
It is, provided both the output and input are compatible with the Full RGB range.
Otherwise, mismatches will either wash the colours out, or crush the blacks and whites.

So, Full>Limited and Limited>Full are big no-noes.

Full>Full is theoretically better than Limited>limited, but the difference is essentially not noticeable.
 

Damian.

Banned
Jun 19, 2012
2,137
0
0
You are literally destroying image quality.
If your monitor supports full range and the PS3 is set to it it won't crush blacks on a Bluray movie. You only get crushed blacks if your TV or PS3 aren set right.

To splice out the audio I presume?
Or does your TV only have one HDMI input?

Maybe your TV has an optical audio out you could use instead.
I have 4 HDMI inputs on my TV. I have to use the HDMI input for audio on both the PC and Wii U for uncompressed PCM. That is more important than the 5 seconds it takes to switch back and forth when I play the Wii U. My cable box isn't affected by changing the range on my TV, so I don't have to do anything there thankfully.
 
May 11, 2010
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RGB full range is wrong for blu rays. Blu rays are coded with 16-235 colors - means: limited.

And generally:

TV limited, console limited -> great
TV limited, console full -> black crush
TV full, console full -> great
TV full, console limited -> washed out

Short: Set your TV to limited and your consoles as well and be happy.
 

silver.tongue

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Jul 22, 2013
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I was under the impressions that if your device supports Full and your Tv supports Full, you should be using Full Range.

At least that's what I did with PS3, and that's what I do with PS4. Can we get screens that show the difference in here?
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
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In my case I have 3 components running through a receiver to one input on my TV.
understandable.. but really, in your case there's no reason to not just set your TV to Auto or Limited.

I was under the impressions that if your device supports Full and your Tv supports Full, you should be using Full Range.

At least that's what I did with PS3, and that's what I do with PS4. Can we get screens that show the difference in here?
which is absolutely ok. But if you are one of the people struggling with some devices supporting Limited-only and wanting to use Full on other devices while having only one input or a TV not Auto switching, your best off just setting everything (display and devices) to Limited. There's no distinguishable difference except MAYBE under the absolute utmost of scrutiny, and you'll save yourself possible annoyances and headaches.
 

Vashetti

Banned
Oct 3, 2012
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If your monitor supports full range and the PS3 is set to it it won't crush blacks on a Bluray movie. You only get crushed blacks if your TV or PS3 aren set right.
Blu-rays are encoded for 16-235 - Limited range.

Regardless of whether you notice it or not, you are destroying image quality by setting it to Full.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
Sep 25, 2005
55,616
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I know Nintendo is not the most technically minded company out there, but there's probably a lot of people playing on PC monitors these days. That the Wii U doesn't even have an option for them to use is disappointing.
 

Damian.

Banned
Jun 19, 2012
2,137
0
0
Blu-rays are encoded for 16-235 - Limited range.

Regardless of whether you notice it or not, you are destroying image quality by setting it to Full.
I know they are encoded for limited range, but if your monitor and PS3 are set to full you won't notice any difference as the PS3 simply won't show 0-15 and 236-255 on BD content. In my experience BD movies are identical when using TV:Limited/PS3:Limited and TV:Full/PS3:Full. Your argument is only valid if one or the other is mismatched, then you will get crushed blacks.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
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I know they are encoded for limited range, but if your monitor and PS3 are set to full you won't notice any difference as the PS3 simply won't show 0-15 and 236-255 on BD content. In my experience BD movies are identical when using TV:Limited/PS3:Limited and TV:Full/PS3:Full. Your argument is only valid if one or the other is mismatched, then you will get crushed blacks.
this actually should be correct. source encoding doesn't matter. it's solely device<->display connection.
 

dcx4610

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Dec 4, 2012
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I was under the impressions that if your device supports Full and your Tv supports Full, you should be using Full Range.

At least that's what I did with PS3, and that's what I do with PS4. Can we get screens that show the difference in here?
Not the best example but it gives a good idea.

If your TV is set to Full Range RGB and you are playing the Wii U which is sending a Limited range, your image will appear something like this:



The Zombie U title screen is a good screen to experiment. Switch your TV between Limited and Full and you will immediately notice a difference in the color and black levels.

If Nintendo simply supported Full Range this wouldn't even be a topic.
 

Damian.

Banned
Jun 19, 2012
2,137
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0
understandable.. but really, in your case there's no reason to not just set your TV to Auto or Limited.
There is no auto setting for me, or I would use it. I have to change the input label to PC for Full. Since I use a PC on my TV more often than the Wii U and my cable box doesn't look any different whether I set limited or Full then Full is the way to go for me 100%. :)
 

burgerdog

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Apr 24, 2007
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You don't watch broadcast television content on that TV? (Not that there's anything wrong with that).
I do, and it's set to limited, of course.

this is really not the issue almost anyone who makes it one actually is.

if limited/full on your TV or console is BROKEN, that is an issue.
If your TV doesn't support Auto (or it is broken) and you absolutely insist on using some Full and are stuck with some Limited, it can be annoying at best.

but really... if your TV doesn't support auto (or it's broken), just set everything to Limited. because unless a device actually has its RGB mode broken (i.e. XBONE) it really isn't a thread-worthy subject.



umm... so just set your TV to Limited for everything?
Sure, I can do that also. I would just have to remove my pc from my receiver and connect it directly to my tv. I would lose the surround sound and would have to stick to headphones.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
May 4, 2007
13,697
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I entered this thread ready for an instant and long-lasting face-palm, but it seems some gaffers are not as illiterate on the subject as the average Joe Intrawebz. So faith in gaf technical literacy +1 ; ]
 

Alej

Banned
Sep 18, 2009
1,687
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33
Nancy, France
Okay, i dont want to answer to everything in this but:
- FULL RGB setting on consoles are there only to be compatible with monitors. If you're gaming on a TV, set it to LIMITED. You'll not have any improvement on a TV with FULL RGB ever. If you do, it's just because you are crushing black and you don't know what you are doing (aka. Don't post in this thread, thanks).
- Limited RGB encoded contents (like console games) will pass through a compression process to be casted in FULL, so even if your TV and your favorite console supports it, it's bad.
- You won't see any difference using PS3/PS4 for Blu-Ray because it doesn't use RGB by default (it uses Y'CbCr), so this info is useless too, that doesn't mean anything.
- If you'd gaming on a monitor, use FULL RGB on your compatible console (not WiiU then).

Edit: what I said isn't true though if games are indeed rendered using the FULL range then converted in LIMITED by console. If it's the case, use FULL on console, FULL on TV, on TV PC MODE (this should ensure TV goes back to limited when watching Blu-rays).
 

Damian.

Banned
Jun 19, 2012
2,137
0
0
Blurays aren't rgb!
No shit, I never said they were. But when viewing a Bluray on a television set to Full RGB and the PS3 set to Full Range you will see an identical picture compared to TV set to limited and PS3 set to limited. The PS3 will simply not show any value above 235 or below 16 when properly set to Full RGB while watching a Bluray movie.
 

ChuyMasta

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Jul 29, 2011
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Wait, my tv is set to yCbCr.
Does this mean im ok with blurays? My bluray player is also set to yCbCr.
Theb what qbout the Wii u which goes through my receiver/bluray player
 

Alej

Banned
Sep 18, 2009
1,687
0
0
33
Nancy, France
No shit, I never said they were. But when viewing a Bluray on a television set to Full RGB and the PS3 set to Full Range you will see an identical picture compared to TV set to limited and PS3 set to limited. The PS3 will simply not show any value above 235 or below 16 when properly set to Full RGB.
PS3 uses Y'CbCr by default for Blu-Rays.