Disingenuous nonsense, especially the 'actually it does output 8 channels' crap.
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Wii U - No optical audio connector? Nintendo. Fix this!!
- Thread starter Fredrik
- Start date
Teletraan1
Banned
Exactly. Creating barriers to entry for your product to save pennies is not a good business decision. I really wonder what the install base of people who can actually get multichannel surround out of the WiiU. I know HDMI market penetration is high but what are they counting here. Just about every HDTV has HDMI but that doesnt mean you can actually get multichannel out of that setup. I wouldnt think it to be much higher than HDTV adoption when the Wii came out which was cited as a reason they didnt do HD at the time.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Again, why don't audio manufacturers include HDMI on their modern equipment if that is seen as the definite standard for HD audio and video moving forward? It seems short-sighted to not include HDMI - even on headphones since there are standards for smaller adapters too such as HDMI mini or whatever it is called.
I could not imagine being in the market for a receiver the last few years and getting one that did not include HDMI.
I could not imagine being in the market for a receiver the last few years and getting one that did not include HDMI.
Teletraan1
Banned
HDMI is actually a wild west of audio standards. If a device is even capable of receiving/delivering sound through HDMI the standard states you only need to support PCM2.0 that is it.
this
I mean of course one could use the virtual surround sound of the TV. I could theoretically. But it would suck.
Wait, now I get it. Nintendo thought about the casual market. Old mums and dads. They don't care about surround sound. They got their HDTV and will be happy. I guess?! But they won't be the ones buying Batman Arkham City.
Dark-Cloudz
Member
No? What can be done then? Surely the audio can be extracted from the HDMI somehow?
Yes. You can extract stereo. Which sucks.
Or you could buy a HDMI audio decoder, which will give you multichannel analog out. Which is really expensive (I found one that is $128, is linked on the last few pages somewhere). This of course requires you to have a receiver, that is capable of multichannel in. Which means it won't work for surround headphones.
Dark-Cloudz
Member
Looks like it's time to sell my 6 year old Pioneer 7.1 receiver then. Shame. It's in perfect working order.
How does that even happen?
I totally agree that HDCP sucks, but that's really not how it works. And I never said HDCP was convenient. I said HDMI is convenient.
DVI is video only. HDMI is DVI-D plus a couple of other things - like high bandwidth audio, sufficient for eight channel uncompressed audio (S/PDIF only supports two channels). HDMI is more convenient because it's a single cable with a small connector that integrates everything and is very high bandwidth. And as multichannel LPCM is part of the baseline standard, consumers don't have to think about formats.
Now, HDCP is an optional DRM system for HDMI, DisplayPort and DVI. However, HDCP is only mandatory on the receiving side. A TV or receiver needs to be able to decrypt HDCP, but a console wouldn't be required to encrypt the signal (I think it's mandatory for Blu-ray players, though - which includes the PS3).
Either that, or maybe it's because Dolby Laboratories is a leading member of the Blu-ray Disc Association and loves license fees. Which they are. And do.
Teletraan1
Banned
From any information I have gathered multichannel LPCM is not part of the baseline standard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI states that "For digital audio, if an HDMI device supports audio, it is required to support the baseline format: stereo (uncompressed) PCM. Other formats are optional, with HDMI allowing up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio" If this information is wrong please contact Wikipedia to have this information corrected.
HDCP is part of HDMI.
If you fully read my posting, you would see that this is actually exactly the opposite of convenient. At least for me. But what I do know - maybe other people have their receiver directly under their TV. Or like additional cables everywhere (see my posting). In my opinion single cable sucks for audio/video - because it's not a "single cable". You need to use that "single cable" to get to your receiver. And then use another "single cable" to get back to the TV. And integrated ethernet? How about "no cable"? Why not use wireless? And what about Gigabit? Oh that's not supported. Wait for HDMI 1.5, I guess. Or 2.0.
But LPCM multichannel is not mandatory for BluRays. So what's convenient about it? If your bluray player and your receiver don't support the audio codec used for multichannel and the BluRay also doesn't contain LPCM multichannel, you won't get multichannel. So the consumer actually has to think about formats.
And then there are even version numbers for the cables. VERSION NUMBERS FOR THE FUCKING CABLES. That's not what I would call convenient.
Won't help in Wii U case.
Either that, or maybe it's because Dolby Laboratories is a leading member of the Blu-ray Disc Association and loves license fees. Which they are. And do.
Dolby Laboratories created S/PDIF? S/PDIF was what we were talking about. I thought the S/P in S/PDIF stood for Sony + Philips.
And Nintendo having to pay Dolby? Didn't they pay them already for Dolby ProLogic II usage on Gamecube+Wii? Why is that a problem now? I mean if Nintendo is really that bankrupt, they could release a dongle. I would gladly pay 5 bucks to get Dolby Digital working. And wouldn't they have to pay them anyway, because of backwards compatibility?
HYDE
Banned
But they were, all of them, deceived.
For another cable was made to bind them in darkness.
One by one the free gamers of Middle Earth fell to the power of HDMI.
Theonik
Member
That's not so far from the truth given all the DRM HDMI supports as well as arbitrary restrictions placed on alternatives over the years to force HDMI as the ruler of the cable world.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
It's been said before, but $50 Chinese players have that thing. It probably costs pennies to implement.Either that, or maybe it's because Dolby Laboratories is a leading member of the Blu-ray Disc Association and loves license fees. Which they are. And do.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
The WiiU actually uses 9.1 channels, the ninth being the sound you make when your having fun
Mysterious Stranger
Member
They will probably make you buy an adapter.
Flachmatuch
Member
It's ok if there's an adapter. I have a projector and 3d headphones so if there's no adapter, I'm fucked.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
I don't know what an adapter is going to do. It would have to be a self contained box that you have to supply power to so that it can take a PCM stream and convert it to Dolby Digital. Actually that all sounds like make believe. I don't think that can even be done. Dolby Digital has to exist from the source content, ie on the disc and read off the disc. PCM audio will be on the disc and I don't think there is a device out there that on the fly compresses audio.
Does that mean that an adapter like the one from the 360 couldn't work as well?
Or is it still likely that something like that will be offered?
Does that mean that an adapter like the one from the 360 couldn't work as well?
Or is it still likely that something like that will be offered?
no, it's impossible. That's just a passive connector, Xbox 360 outputs DD5.1, that's just proprietary connector, it doesn't do any signal conversion. and that doesn't plug into HDMI but the AV out.
WiiU only outputs 6 channel LPCM through HDMI according to spec sheet and the only other output is stereo through RCA.
meaning, you have to have a receiver that accepts 6ch LPCM through HDMI to get surround sound, some receivers only do stereo.
You can NOT convert LPCM to DD5.1 with a passive cheap connector like that, signals have to be converted, meaning you need a box with a proper DSP chip and power supply and everything, if there is such a thing, it would cost above $100 easily and there will be latency issues.
That HDMI switcher thing people are linking won't work either, that's just a signal pass-through, when there is no DD5.1 on the HDMI it won't work. same goes for TOSLINK out on some TVs.
getting dolby/surround headphone working with WiiU is pretty much not possible.
Because you can (most likely) just plug you're headphones into the controller and get the same thing.
Dolby headphones that people use with consoles use DD5.1 through optical, the gamepad won't have such thing, we're not talking about stereo sound here...
Chû Totoro
Member
I don't understand the need of optical. Wii-U -> Sound system -> TV has always worked for me even when using hdmi only.
I really don't get the problem here.
Here is my sound setup :
I really don't get the problem here.
Here is my sound setup :
Wikipedia said:
Essentially Dolby Headphone is nothing more than a "hack". Any headphones that use it are only stereo to begin with. Whilst the Wii U won't support Dolby Headphone specifically, yes, it can actually do one better by supporting stereo surround natively (like the 3DS does). It's practically the same thing.
Dolby Headphone is not a "hack" at all, I guess you never used it. Transforming a 3D soundscape down to stereo (for speakers) is completely different from transforming it for headphones. And If you do the latter correctly you get great positional audio.
Pancakes R Us
Member
Exactly. Nintendo just loves to screw users over. No Wii-bought VC games playable via gamepad. What a joke. This may be the first Nintendo console I don't buy at launch in a long time.
Never used one I take it? no, it's not the same thing at all. Dolby Headphone do processing on 5.1 input, the result is a stereo signal but that's not same as stereo output from the console at all, console stereo out is just down-mixed. 5.1 headphone (not dolby) just use the 5.1 input, they don't convert to stereo or anything like that, different things,. for both you need optical output from the console and they both use discrete audio channels as their input.
if the stereo out from the console is ok for you, then that's you, some just use TV speakers too and they're fine with it.
Dolby headphones are similar to virtual surround sound on a TV. Surround sound headphones != stereo headphones. If they only get a stereo signal, those headphones won't be able to offer virtual surround sound. It's simple as that.
The spec sheet says LPCM 5.1 only. Which means no virtual surround and no Dolby Pro Logic II. Would be pretty crazy, if Wii U doesn't offer Dolby Digital 5.1, but then offers an option to enable (Dolby) virtual surround sound natively.
And then there are also really expensive headphones like the Sony MDR-DS6500, which has more than 2 speakers inside the headphones. It doesn't have 8 speakers though
You are completely wrong. Note that humans only have 2 ears.
In fact, just put on headphones and listen to this, and then tell me you need more than a stereo signal for a positional listening experience.
I should have put hack in quotation marks the first time (I've edited my post). I didn't mean to imply anything about it's quality or how well it worked (you are correct, I haven't used it so I can't make any such claim), I just meant that, as far as the actual output signal and the actual headphones go, there's nothing special about it. Anything with a two channel headphone jack can output the same thing. All the "special" is in the transformation which is very "hack"-like in nature.
The 3DS can do the same thing (though maybe not as well, I don't know, I haven't really tested that either), except in it's case it's skipping the 5.1 middle man. I think there's a good chance the Wii U can do the same.
Always impressed when I hear the Virtual Barber Shop. Headphones ftw!
This is true of course. But it's also true that I don't remember any consoles offering good headphone surround out of the box.
I always get a bit pissed off when someone claims that you need more than 2 channels for "real" headphone surround, sorry about that. It's just that most "5.1" headphones actually suck a lot compared to what you get for the same price if you invest in good stereo headphones and signal processing.
The Xtortionist
Member
Hopefully Astro or another company will come up with a solution for headphone users. Not even sure if it's even possible with the Wii's audio format but we'll see. Disabling Dolby headphone on my Mixamp makes the soundstage feel so empty.
Having tried both I definitely prefer stereo headphones + Dolby headphone as opposed to headphones with more than 2 speakers.
Having tried both I definitely prefer stereo headphones + Dolby headphone as opposed to headphones with more than 2 speakers.
Ban Puncher
Member
And add an RF plug while you're at it! You have to cater to everyone with old-ass tech, Cashtendo.
Chû Totoro;42152060 said:I don't understand the need of optical. Wii-U -> Sound system -> TV has always worked for me even when using hdmi only.
I really don't get the problem here.
Here is my sound setup :
Most people have optical receivers.
And would you know actually like to use their potential new console using their current surround sound setup.
Instead of shelling out on a new one.
Brad Grenz
Member
Sure, but you won't get more than Stereo sound from the WiiU.
Read my posting again. Stereo headphones (which is headphones, that contain 2 speakers and a dumb transmitter or a cable) are not the same as surround headphones (which is headphones, that may also contain 2 speakers, but may also contain more like the Sony ones I posted, they don't contain 5 or 6 speakers, but just 4 in total + transmitter, where the transmitter will probably contain some sort of virtual surround processing for example). They are just not the same.
And sorry, virtual surround sound within TVs using TV speakers just flat out fails in comparison to actual surround sound using 7.1 speakers. Yeah, headphones are nice, although you don't get the signal processed in that way out of the box. You will get regular multichannel sound (e.g. 7.1), which combined with regular stereo headphones will cut 2 channels out of that without any processing, which then will result in you getting stereo sound on your headphones. If you got some magic box that converts the multichannel sound to virtual surround sound and then send that to headphones, then you actually got the thing people call "surround sound headphones".
Yeah, be nitpicky about "oh but that's the processing, duh", although headphones are SOLD that way. You don't buy "headphones" and then an additional box that says "surround sound processing". All of those combined ARE what people call surround sound headphones.
Did you listen to the youtube video I posted with bog-standard stereo headphones? From what you wrote, I don't think so. You can even use $10 earbuds!
I did exactly that. And many people who care about audio do. Well, it doesn't literally say "surround sound processing" on the box.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
I think the problem with the video you posted is that it is designed and engineered to sound that way via stereo headphones. The stereo output of the Wii U or any console will not be engineered in the same way, thus some sort of sound processing or virtual surround is needed to create a similar effect. Gaming headphones that use optical and receive 5 channel audio have more to work with essentially to create a surround sound.
All that is just part of the ongoing conversation there are many people with home audio systems purchased not only long ago but today and tomorrow even that the Wii U will not supply surround sound too.
I understood exactly what you wrote.
You were nitpicky to the max and you totally ignored that "surround headphones" may be exactly what you described. You would personally just call them differently. I would even assume that you are trolling now.
My 10$ earbuds aren't able to get me surround sound anywhere BUT FOR THIS ONE SINGLE youtube video, that features audio, which is already encoded that way somewhat (although in lousy youtube quality). All my DVDs aren't encoded that way. All my BluRays aren't encoded that way. My PS3 also doesn't encode audio that way. And the Wii U won't encode the audio that way either. My 10$ earbuds won't be enough to get me surround sound for those.
So someone buying so called "surround headphones", which may contain exactly the same as you bought separately, but combined within one package, doesn't care about audio? Elitist nonsense.
And you would call that package "stereo headphones and a virtual surround sound box" because that's technically correct, although they are not sold using that term. And most people also don't call them that way.
So to clarify: You think: "surround headphones == headphones, that contain more than 2 speakers"
Most people ITT think: "surround headphones == a package, that is sold in stores, which contains headphones with 2 or more speakers + a transmitter, that will encode multichannel surround to virtual surround".
LOL wut? Surely this is a joke post gone wrong.
To be fair, almost zero HD hardware packages actually include a cable in the box that'll enable an HD picture. WiiU's pretty progressive by throwing in that much, at least.
That's exactly what I said earlier in the thread, yeah. And is what Dolby Headphone does. Which is why it would be useful to have an optical out that people can connect to whatever they use for processing.
I never said that. I said that many people who do care about audio do buy them separately. I merely mentioned that because you claimed that this is not done, period.
Theonik
Member
Only pre-recorded cutscenes would come with DD on the disk, anything which is interactive requires on-the fly compression/encoding by the DSP. The first console that supported this was the original Xbox using a chip made by nVidia. Current generation consoles like the 360 and PS3 will live-encode DD as long as the game supports outputting that format. As far as converters are concerned you would need something with appropriate silicon that can do this process and that would have to be a powered adapter and very expensive.