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Wii U Speculation Thread 2: Can't take anymore of this!!!

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AmFreak

Member
Comparing a WiiU dev kit directly to a retail XBox 360 would be really odd IMO. Like I said there's no reason to assume he'd be doing that, IF he's even talking about RAM to begin with :)

Why would it odd? The question he asked his contact is likely the queston everybody asks now - how good is it in contrast to 360 and PS3 ?
And the comparison to a 360 devkit would also be odd cause to what devkit would you compare it? The first one's aka the Apple G5's with ATI cards?
That would obviously make zero sense, so you can only compare to the "final" ones, but what final ones? The one when the 360 launched had also 512 MB, the one with 1 GB was introduced later.

Nothing he says is very specific no, however he's being nowhere near as vague as "1x-10x".

Oh sry he is only as vague as saying 2x-5x depending on the component. What i wanted to say was that everyone could have guessed that by now. And for the sake of it make it 4-8x (w/o the cpu) instead of 1-10x.

Also how did he make an error on the CPU? He said it may look only slightly faster than the CPU in 360, but is more efficient which makes it more powerful than it may look at first. That fits the bill for a triple core out of order CPU at a similar clock rate to Xenon.

Ok that was my fault, i for some reason had the Wii Cpu mind. But that is another point, you can't really compare completly different cpu's with one number (but that's not his fault).
 

Jarsonot

Member
Some people might not notice a big difference closer to the camera. Though what you would definitely notice is the clarity difference in the distance between the two versions (as you'll be looking in the distance for "doodz to kill" :) ). On the PS3 objects and characters would be quite jagged and low quality, while they would appear much clearer and more defined on the PC version.

Yeah, clarity in the distance would definitely help. That's a good point.

But as far as not being able to go back to PS3 quality, I have to disagree a little. I still play games from generations past, with obviously much lower quality, and I still like 'em. =)

I'm not trying to poo-poo newer better nicer graphics, I'm just saying you all can probably agree that at some point we're going to reach a level where you just don't need much better graphics. I'm at that level. Put the processing power on AI, multiple enemies on screen, and fluid FPS.
 

Hiltz

Member
This year's GDC is coming soon, but let's take a brief look at Nintendo's past attendance at the event:

GDC 2005 (just gonna start here)

- Iwata keynote
- New trailer for Twilight Princess
- Mario Kart DS live demo, getting online play, & playable demo
- Emphasis on "simple an seamless" Wi-Fi DS experience (will be free)
- Animal Crossing DS getting online play
- Nintendogs & Electroplanktin live demos
- Nintendo working with ATI & IBM for Project Revolution's CPU and GPU
- Revolution will be backward compatible with GameCube
- Revolution to have built-in Wi-Fi

GDC 2006

- Iwata keynote
- Phantom Hourglass official announcement
- Live demos of Brain Age and Metroid Prime Hunters
- Project Revolution gets Sega Genesis and TurboGrafx-16 virtual console support.

GDC 2007

- Shigeru Miyamoto keynote
- Takeshi Shimada keynote
(Includes discussion of future dev tools for Wii hardware)
- New Super Mario Galaxy trailer
- Early news of Check Mii Out Channel


GDC 2008

- Three keynote speeches (Smash Bros, Wii Fit, Wii Menu Channel & Wiiware)
- playable Wiiware demos (First look at Lost Winds)

GDC 2009

- Iwata keynote
(points out that Nintendogs and Mario Galaxy were originally planned as launch titles)
- Spirit Tracks official announcement
- Wii SD card storage space solution (firmware 4.0 update available now)
- Footage of Rhythm Heaven DS
- New Rock N Roll Climber Wiiware title
- Wiiware sequel to My Life as a King & FFIV: The After Years
- Final Fantasy titles coming to Wii's Virtual Console
- New Warioware Snapped! for DSi
- Wii's Virtual Console getting arcade title support

GDC 2010

- Yoshio Sakamoto keynote
- DSi XL official announcement

GDC 2011

- Iwata keynote
(points out Nintendo needs to do better with digital downloads as Wiiware & DSiware underperformed)
- Netflix support for 3DS
- Movie trailers for 3DS
-Exclusive short-form video service for 3DS
- 3D video recording coming to 3DS via update
- 10,000+ free AT&T W-Fi hotspots made available in late May 2011 for United States
- 3DS eshop, web browser, and DSiWare software transfers coming in late May 2011
-" EShop includes all DSiWare titles, a Virtual Console -- which also includes Game Gear and TurboGrafx 16 games! and "3D classics," remastered in 3D."
- New Skyward Sword trailer
- Super Mario Galaxy 3D Land official announcement
(no trailer shown but news coming later at E3)
 
Further details: These impressions are from a time when studios used revision 4 of the dev kits. Lately, 4.2 kits shipped from Singapore. I don’t know if there is a significant power gain with “.X” type of revisions, I guess it’s the case, but not as important as a change of revision number (from Rev 3 to 4 for example). I’ve heard that V5 kits may exist. It is likely, as for many other consoles before, that Nintendo and first-party have more advanced and therefore more powerful/optimized dev kits. However, these v4 kits are apparently from the end of the year / beginning of 2012, and they are those which have benefited from the hardware boost reported on the net. For people who hoped that this upgrade would make the Wii U 5 times stronger and 5 times more capable of displaying beautiful stuff on screen, from what I know, this is not the case for now, but there are several variables that can explain this, I'll come back to this subject in other posts, but can say that this “not 5x Xbox360” is only valid in the context from which I gathered my informations (third-party, second-hand, subjectivity, news given at a certain time knowing that the console will come out maybe 10 months later so will receive more upgrades, etc.). But again, I put the emphasis on the fact that it’s clearly not on par with the xbox360, it’s at least 2x.

Could you repeat that in Super Sayian?

Seriously though, people don't get the numbers. Just because a system is 2x the power doesn't mean it'll look 2x's better. The best example is the Sega Genesis/SNES comparison in this thread. The Genesis is faster than the SNES, almost 2x the speed, but that doesn't mean jack when all is said and done.

I wonder if Wii-U3 and PS5 comes out, would they need 10x or even 20x the power in order to have graphics 2x better than its predecessor. We really could be hitting diminishing returns with consoles by the next gen.
 
R

Rösti

Unconfirmed Member
Eh maybe. I don't know, it all depends on time release schedules. ]Going by the rumours that MS will launch their console early next year, I don't think it will be that big a gap. Maybe PS2 -> XBOX, then...

North America

PlayStation 2 release date: October 26, 2000
Xbox release date: November 15, 2001

That's a time difference of 55 weeks (385 days). If we use the initial release date of PlayStation 2 in Japan (March 4, 2000) for calculation it's a difference of 88 weeks (621 days).
 
Does anyone know whether the gfx chip in WiiU would support DX11?

Well it would be akin to the PS4 debate where it would use OpenGL instead. Now will the version they use be equivalent? That remains to be seen. The original target specs had it using OpenGL ES 2.0 with bits of shading language GLSL 3.3. The latter is equivalent to Shader Model 4.1. But again that was with the original specs so it's possible that may have changed.
 

Donnie

Member
Why would it odd? The question he asked his contact is likely the queston everybody asks now - how good is it in contrast to 360 and PS3 ?
And the comparison to a 360 devkit would also be odd cause to what devkit would you compare it? The first one's aka the Apple G5's with ATI cards?
That would obviously make zero sense, so you can only compare to the "final" ones, but what final ones? The one when the 360 launched had also 512 MB, the one with 1 GB was introduced later.

You might as well ask why it would be odd to compare an apple to an orange. The developers he's spoken to will know that development kits have more RAM than final consoles and so will know that comparing the RAM of a WiiU development kit directly to retail 360 without making consequences for debugging memory ect is a faulty comparison. I honestly don't know why this conversation is still going on. As far as which 360 kit to compare to, why would they compare it to anything but a reasonably current 360 development kit? (the 360 kit went to 1GB in 2009). The mention of the first kit is just silly BTW :)

I mean we don't even know if the 4-5 better component he mentions is RAM. But if it is I'm sure his developer friends aren't lacking in knowledge enough to compare the RAM of a development kit directly to a retail console.
 

Donnie

Member
Could you repeat that in Super Sayian?

Seriously though, people don't get the numbers. Just because a system is 2x the power doesn't mean it'll look 2x's better. The best example is the Sega Genesis/SNES comparison in this thread. The Genesis is faster than the SNES, almost 2x the speed, but that doesn't mean jack when all is said and done.

I wonder if Wii-U3 and PS5 comes out, would they need 10x or even 20x the power in order to have graphics 2x better than its predecessor. We really could be hitting diminishing returns with consoles by the next gen.

He says later that when talking about 2x he's talking about what the game looks like on screen not the systems raw power.

Also as far as the SNES/Megadrive comparison goes, its CPU ran twice as fast, but that doesn't mean the system was twice as powerful.

But from what i've heard, from the impressions of my sources, the hardware has enough power to appear 2x Xbox360 on the screens. It implies then a good balance of each components (i doubt that the CPU is 0,5x the one in the Xbox360, the GPU is 8x, and the memory 10x), and Nintendo is rather known for that.
 

DCKing

Member
As for your first point, shouldn't it be obvious? It's one more 480p image to render independently. And all my own spec forecasts in previous posts state 1.5 GB. I'm open to alternate scenarios that make sense, though. 2 GB GDDR3 one a 128 bit bus would probably be pretty cheap.
Is 2GB GDDR3 possible using less than eight memory chips? If so, I agree that it might have been possible for Nintendo. 2GB of regular DDR3 might be possible (4 GBit DDR3 is available), but the rumours so far have indicated otherwise. One double buffered 480p image is just over 3MB however, and would very likely be rendered in EDRAM. Furthermore, don't think the resources required for the Upad are demanding on memory since most logic and graphics will be shared among main screen and other Upads. If they expanded the memory I very much doubt the extra Upad would be the reason.
And in all due respect, please explain to me exactly how Nintendo are going to achieve Wii emulation before you shoot down anyone else's speculation. I'm no expert so if you can lay it all out, I'd be fascinated. As far as I do know, 3DS uses a combination of hardware and software emulation to achieve DS emulation, but I haven't even gotten solid details on that besides the ARM code being compatible.
I think it's going to be like the 3DS does it, which presumably can run much of the code the DS could natively and some 'software emulation' is necessary for some specific bits. I'm not an expert in emulation either, but I know enough that once Nintendo abandons 100% compatible hardware BC, there is no need for their processor to be capable of running on the same clockspeed. Either way, their new processor doesn't need to run at an exact multiple of what the old processor did.
 
He says later that when talking about 2x he's talking about what the game looks like on screen not the systems raw power.

Also as far as the SNES/Megadrive comparison goes, its CPU ran twice as fast, but that doesn't mean the system was twice as powerful.

I never said it was system raw power. That's why simple numbers doesn't mean jack. The Genesis had 2x the speed, but is beaten in other areas. That's why 2x or 5x doesn't mean a thing. Certain component could be better or worse.
 

Instro

Member
I might be a bit out of the loop, but is there a reason some of you seem to be expecting news out of GDC? Or just wishful thinking?

I know Nintendo occasionally lets slip new details at GDC, but it's usually during keynotes, of which this year Iwata/Miyamoto/Reggie/Nintendo have none. Outside of this their GDC presence is usually minimal at best.

There's always a chance engine technology will show up, but I'd expect that stuff to be shown behind closed doors, as Nintendo appears dead set on keeping cards close to their chest until E3. We all know what the Nintendo ninjas are like, so I don't really expect many, if any leaks, and honestly nothing at all official.

Unless I missed something?

Well there was the rumor about Crytek demoing something behind closed doors. Not that it means much to us, but I guess there is hope of some sort of leak there.
 

lherre

Accurate
Hello all :)

I follow these boards since the Gaming Age days, currently I am especially on this topic, I must say that it has been a great pleasure to read you all, and I finally decided to post to share my informations and my ideas. To introduce myself a little, I am a former French game journalist, since the 90s. I’ll not enter into details but for example, I’ve contributed, at different positions, to large French gaming websites. I want to reach the other side of the fence and am looking for a creative content job (gamedesign, writing, producing, etc.) in a big studio. I kept a few contacts in the industry from my activities, and so I could get some news about the Wii U, console that I wait with impatience.

Some warnings before i start:

1 - To retain my sources who are obviously under NDA and not put them in difficulty, I will not quote them. Also, I love this sector, and a large part of the presentation impact of a new hardware at E3 and other shows depend on the respect by all the actors of the confidentiality of important information, such as power and therefore what a console is capable of displaying. I do not want to spoil this momentum that Nintendo is building for the E3. For all these reasons, I will stay more or less evasive, but I can give some news that are not huge revelations. They are rather positive and interesting, I hope that they will nurture the constructive debates around here, and put an end to bad speculations on the console I've read here lately. I want somehow to participate in the buzz that will gradually be built around the Wii U, and I think that Nintendo public relation guys should be more active on geek boards like this one, to counter when it’s necessary, some rumors that dampen seriously the enthusiasm of hardcore gamers, who could then relay these bad vibrations to fellow gamers in their circles. The “just on par with xbox360” drama has even spread to french forums, so it can’t hurt to deny it fast.

2 - Read all this with caution. It's second-hand knowledge, I have not seen Wii U dev kit myself. My sources are reliable but they are not close friends in life, there are also some parameters that have as consequences that what they told me might not reflect the full reality of the Wii U power.

3 - My sources do not occupy very technical positions, like programmers, coders, who have daily access to the kits guts, they are not the best suited to quantify the machine capacities, there is a great deal of subjectivity in their infos.

Here we go

I can already say that this come from European big studios which have logically the latest dev kits available to third parties. To be clear, these are not small studios that could have remained at earlier dev kits because they are not important enough to receive Nintendo's latest updates quickly.

So, from what my sources saw on their screens, they clearly stated that they experienced superior capabilities in comparison to the Xbox360. This is the positive aspect of my info: you can be sure that the Wii U is not on par with current gen HD. You can remove this idea from your heads, and stop speculating about it, it will not happen. The point more negative now: On the power scale, they told me that it’s closer to 2x Xbox360 than 5x. On paper, some components (you can guess which) are mathematically 4 or 5 times more powerful, more in quantity/number, than in the xbox360, but it does not translate for the moment in 5x prettier images, with 5 more complex and finest scenes, etc.

Further details: These impressions are from a time when studios used revision 4 of the dev kits. Lately, 4.2 kits shipped from Singapore. I don’t know if there is a significant power gain with “.X” type of revisions, I guess it’s the case, but not as important as a change of revision number (from Rev 3 to 4 for example). I’ve heard that V5 kits may exist. It is likely, as for many other consoles before, that Nintendo and first-party have more advanced and therefore more powerful/optimized dev kits. However, these v4 kits are apparently from the end of the year / beginning of 2012, and they are those which have benefited from the hardware boost reported on the net. For people who hoped that this upgrade would make the Wii U 5 times stronger and 5 times more capable of displaying beautiful stuff on screen, from what I know, this is not the case for now, but there are several variables that can explain this, I'll come back to this subject in other posts, but can say that this “not 5x Xbox360” is only valid in the context from which I gathered my informations (third-party, second-hand, subjectivity, news given at a certain time knowing that the console will come out maybe 10 months later so will receive more upgrades, etc.). But again, I put the emphasis on the fact that it’s clearly not on par with the xbox360, it’s at least 2x.

Furthermore, but read that with a grain of salt, many graphical effects are applied near the “end” of the visual development of a game. I guess some parameters that cause what is rendered on the screen to be more or less clean, complex, for example the type of shadow, the AA applied, and new effects that the Wii U GPU is probably capable of fall into this category (the shiny stuff that developers adds at the end, once the engine is running well), and therefore the final result will feel more like a 3 or 4 or even the famous 5x than 2x Xbox360 to the eyes of my sources, I keep in touch with them to know if it will be the case.

That is all I can say for now, there will be other posts to come. Do not expect revelations from each of my interventions though. This in not the main purpose of my decision to post on NeoGAF. As my nickname implies it, I want to share my ideas (of game design, background, etc.) confront them, do theorycrafting which I love. I’ll participate on topics that interest me, and of course this one, by writing “normal” and light messages with some funny things, gifs, images, and above all, ideas !

See you soon :)

Thanks to share this info, and yes V5 (well they have another code name) kits exist (only in Nintendo headquarters I think). Although I don't think they will have big changes.

I think 5x is too optimistic (at least now) in my opinion. I saw some performance data of a very famous engine running on Wii U and the results aren't very optimistic-good right now with simple demos (in V5 kits they have only a minor improve in framerate). It can be optimization of course but right now it is far from the step I want from a new generation.

But we will see this next months and the things in the gdc.
 

Donnie

Member
I never said it was system raw power. That's why simple numbers doesn't mean jack. The Genesis had 2x the speed, but is beaten in other areas. That's why 2x or 5x doesn't mean a thing. Certain component could be better or worse.

The Genesis had a CPU that ran twice as fast, that doesn't mean the Genesis was twice as fast.

Also I'm not sure what you're point is now. I thought you were trying to say that "twice as powerful does not mean twice as good looking". But I've just told you that he's not saying that so..
 

tkscz

Member
Thanks to share this info, and yes V5 (well they have another code name) kits exists (only in Nintendo headquarters I think). Although I don't think they will have big changes.

I think 5x is too optimistic (at least now) in my opinion. I saw some performance data of a very famous engine running on Wii U and the results aren't very optimistic-good right now with simple demos (in V5 kits they have only a minor improve in framerate). It can be optimization of course but right now it is far from the step I want from a new generation.

But we will see this next months and the things in the gdc.

Wait I'm confused, you don't have V5 but you know how it runs? Or was that a guess?
 
Thanks to share this info, and yes V5 (well they have another code name) kits exists (only in Nintendo headquarters I think). Although I don't think they will have big changes.

I think 5x is too optimistic (at least now) in my opinion. I saw some performance data of a very famous engine running on Wii U and the results aren't very optimistic-good right now with simple demos (in V5 kits they have only a minor improve in framerate). It can be optimization of course but right now it is far from the step I want from a new generation.

But we will see this next months and the things in the gdc.

Isn't this kind of contradicting?
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Thanks to share this info, and yes V5 (well they have another code name) kits exists (only in Nintendo headquarters I think). Although I don't think they will have big changes.

I think 5x is too optimistic (at least now) in my opinion. I saw some performance data of a very famous engine running on Wii U and the results aren't very optimistic-good right now with simple demos (in V5 kits they have only a minor improve in framerate). It can be optimization of course but right now it is far from the step I want from a new generation.

But we will see this next months and the things in the gdc.

And here we go.
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I saw some performance data of a very famous engine running on Wii U and the results aren't very optimistic-good right now with simple demos

What kind of performance are we talking about?


(The thread is a right roller coaster...)
 

Instro

Member
Ah i see we've had some interesting bits of info posted. Neat. I'll take it with a grain of salt since Ideaman isn't "mod sanctioned" so to speak, but it all sounds pretty plausible.

Thanks to share this info, and yes V5 (well they have another code name) kits exist (only in Nintendo headquarters I think). Although I don't think they will have big changes.

I think 5x is too optimistic (at least now) in my opinion. I saw some performance data of a very famous engine running on Wii U and the results aren't very optimistic-good right now with simple demos (in V5 kits they have only a minor improve in framerate). It can be optimization of course but right now it is far from the step I want from a new generation.

But we will see this next months and the things in the gdc.

Interesting that there would be problems with any current gen engines, if it is a step above current consoles...was it UE4? ;)
 
Thanks to share this info, and yes V5 (well they have another code name) kits exist (only in Nintendo headquarters I think). Although I don't think they will have big changes.

I think 5x is too optimistic (at least now) in my opinion. I saw some performance data of a very famous engine running on Wii U and the results aren't very optimistic-good right now with simple demos (in V5 kits they have only a minor improve in framerate). It can be optimization of course but right now it is far from the step I want from a new generation.

But we will see this next months and the things in the gdc.
what are they though? Can you ballpark estimates on the results you've seen?
 

antonz

Member
The thing is what engine? I cant imagine its a current gen engine. If it is someones gotta be fucking up cause all the current gen engines are designed to run on stuff that would be far weaker than the Wii U.

I could see Unreal 4 having issues to where they need further optimization
 

Donnie

Member
Thanks to share this info, and yes V5 (well they have another code name) kits exist (only in Nintendo headquarters I think). Although I don't think they will have big changes.

I think 5x is too optimistic (at least now) in my opinion. I saw some performance data of a very famous engine running on Wii U and the results aren't very optimistic-good right now with simple demos (in V5 kits they have only a minor improve in framerate). It can be optimization of course but right now it is far from the step I want from a new generation.

But we will see this next months and the things in the gdc.

So no single component is 4-5x as powerful as any of the components in 360?
 
Is 2GB GDDR3 possible using less than eight memory chips? If so, I agree that it might have been possible for Nintendo. 2GB of regular DDR3 might be possible (4 GBit DDR3 is available), but the rumours so far have indicated otherwise. One double buffered 480p image is just over 3MB however, and would very likely be rendered in EDRAM. Furthermore, don't think the resources required for the Upad are demanding on memory since most logic and graphics will be shared among main screen and other Upads. If they expanded the memory I very much doubt the extra Upad would be the reason.
I think it's going to be like the 3DS does it, which presumably can run much of the code the DS could natively and some 'software emulation' is necessary for some specific bits. I'm not an expert in emulation either, but I know enough that once Nintendo abandons 100% compatible hardware BC, there is no need for their processor to be capable of running on the same clockspeed. Either way, their new processor doesn't need to run at an exact multiple of what the old processor did.

Yeah, you're right. The clockspeeds sounded somewhat doable (also depends on if it's VLIW5 architecture or if Nintendo has modded even that to make it more efficient) so I thought it might be a valid route. However, it's much more important for Wii U CPU/GPU/RAM speeds to be in synch with each other, as I tried to show in my own past spec guesstimates.
 

lherre

Accurate
The data is from nintendo own tests. But are preliminar I think they will improve it quickly (or at least I hope). And no, it's not UE4. It's a current engine.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
The data is from nintendo own tests. But are preliminar I think they will improve it quickly (or at least I hope). And no, it's not UE4. It's a current engine.

HYPE GONE

If that's the case I have almost no hope for this machine.
 

Instro

Member
Now, I guess my question is. Why would Nintendo be using someone else's engine? (Sorry, I don't know where you get your info, or if you work for a company. Sorry once again if I'm asking a stupid question.)

Well it might not be for their use, but it could simply be to see how other developers engines run on the system. I'm not sure if that is something they have done in the past, but its rather promising that they would be interested in such a thing.
 

antonz

Member
If its a current gen engine would have to assume some degree of incompetence on Nintendos part then. We know Cryengine works pretty well from what Crytek says so that really only leaves 2 other engine possibilities UE and frostbite.

UE3 is running on hardware half as powerful as current gen machines so if its that Nintendo screwed up somewhere
 

royalan

Member
The data is from nintendo own tests. But are preliminar I think they will improve it quickly (or at least I hope). And no, it's not UE4. It's a current engine.

Geez McGeez, this has been one hell of a day for back-and-forth Wii U news.

I can't take it...;_;
 

Donnie

Member
lherre was inferring that it was struggling to run a current-gen engine.

No he doesn't, at no point does he say anything about the engine struggling to run. He says the results aren't what he wants from a next gen console, that's all. You're reading in/assuming the rest.
 
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