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[HylianTom]

I would simply say there is deliberate disinformation going on from sources. Thats the simplest and most likely answer.

The information from all sides is just far too contrdictory and regardless of people trying to spin it as well this doesnt really disqualify that etc one side is spewing pure bullshit it really is that simple.

I am not going to say which side that is but its obvious one side is.

There is a conspiratorial voice speaking in the back of my mind:

Maybe some are downplaying the graphics capabilities intentionally, with the blessing of Nintendo, with the hopes that expectations are dampened a bit before E3?

Why would Mark Rein - of all people - come out with such praise, talking-up the system's capabilities? And the demos showing capabilities that are, we can conclude pretty easily, beyond this current generation's hardware? And Reggie and Iwata talking-up their pursuit of the core audience.. would they really be dense enough to launch another LastGen v2.1 console?

(maybe they would.. this is Nintendo we're talking about!)

The complete silence coming from Nintendo has my imagination running wild. I don't know what to believe, and something smells.
*adjusts tinfoil hat*

 

[AceBandage]

no, wsippel is talking about actual performance by some middleware with the wii u having a slight edge.

perhaps that slight edge will get larger with further optimization *shrugs*

Right, he said that, without much optimization, the middleware was running slightly better on the Wii U.
So... what does that tell us?

I mean, really guys.
It's like everything we've actually learned in these three threads is thrown out the window because THQ won't spend the money to make better versions of DS2 for the PC and Wii U....

 

[Dreamwriter]

Hasn't someone in this thread already found out that the CPU on on par with the 360 CPU?

That's something that's basically impossible to know without trying to do the same types of things on both CPU's. Unless the CPU's are the same design, you can't compare clock rates or stuff like that; different CPU's do things entirely differently.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Is the v5 Wii U dev-kit the final kit, or not?

 

[guek]

Right, he said that, without much optimization, the middleware was running slightly better on the Wii U.
So... what does that tell us?

I mean, really guys.
It's like everything we've actually learned in these three threads is thrown out the window because THQ won't spend the money to make better versions of DS2 for the PC and Wii U....

->

Huh? No. The current, optimized engine performs roughly the same on Wii U and 360. The initial, unoptimized Wii U port only achieved a fraction of it's current performance.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

God, I hope you're right AceBandage! ^_^

he didn't even say anything that outrageous, he pretty much stated the worst case scenario.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

he didn't even say anything that outrageous, he pretty much stated the worst case scenario.

Well, good, then.

 

[AzaK]

But that's only if we only believe Arkam. If we believe lherre (who, by the way, actually works on the dev kits) has already stated that Nintendo is pushing for the barest minimum of 1GB of RAM, with a good possibility of putting in more for the retail units (based on how much the dev kits have).
We also know that Nintendo and AMD have been developing this GPU for years, probably up until after E3, even. So it's not going to have a 2005 feature set, and will probably be far more efficient and more powerful.
We also know that the CPU is OOE, which means that it's far more efficient than the 360's, even if the clock speed is about the same.
And it was IBM's own admission that they were adding a lot of eDRAM (though, how it functions in the actual unit is unknown.)

These are all facts, stated by people that have worked on the device. So even at a bare minimum, it's more powerful, and by quite a bit.
It was never, ever, going to stack up to the Durango/PS4, simply because of timing and cost, but it's not going to just be a 360, or really even close.

Can the mods collate all the known information like Ace just said and make everyone have to click an "I have read and understood this" checkbox before posting to this thread. I'm happy to donate my services to write code that checks posts for phrases like "on par" and "it's Nintendo" and instigate an auto-ban.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Is the v5 Wii U dev-kit the final kit, or not?

Final dev kits don't tend to come out until after the final system has been shown off with software running at E3. That's when 3DS final dev kits came out, right after the last E3 before launch (and there were still even more-final dev kits that didn't go out to most developers until after the 3DS launch).

 

[DefectiveReject]

I think this is a all massive misdirection and super trolling by Nintendo.

Feed the trolls
Downplay WiiU to Sony and MS.

But in all seriousness Nintendo will be in HD.
And maybe they want a cheap console. Or maybe they will have a generational first
A HD budget console for the masses and a Premium SKU for the verbal few?

 

[AceBandage]

->

But are they optimized the same. That is the question.
They've had far more time with the 360 than they have with the Wii U.

he didn't even say anything that outrageous, he pretty much stated the worst case scenario.

Based on what we know, some of what guek said is impossible, specifically the 768MB of RAM.

Seriously, you guys just take the worst thing and run with it, every single time.
I may be the "overhyping fanboy" but my perception is grounded completely in reality on both sides of this.
We take what we know, we compare it to what we've heard, we throw out anything that seems suspicious (on either side) and we have a pretty good guess of what we'll get.

 

[lwilliams3]

The thing is, if Arkam is right, this whole 1+ year rumor cycle is going to look even more ridiculous. It would mean a ton of reported values were completely off.

an rv770 - one of the very first rumors out there - in the early dev kits would have to have been false

over 1GB of ram? Forget about it. Probably more like 768mb

"lots" of EDRAM? Hah!

Using power7 and watson to hype up the CPU will have been a complete joke

Some things to consider though:

- The performance of the Wii U depends on what the developers are doing with the screen. If the GPU is 3x the power of the 360, for example, using the controller in more ambitious ways can effectively split that power between the two screens in half.

- Game engines are not all equal. Some game engines may require more optimization to get them properly running on the Wii U than others. The system seems to be designed a bit differently compared to the 360, despite it being easy to port games and getting it running to at least in parity to the other consoles.

- First-gen games are not likely to show the full potential of the hardware, especially ported games that wasn't designed for the system from the ground up.

- Budget. There are not alot of 360/PS3 games that pushes those systems due to that, and the next gen will be worse.

 

[Roo]

Final dev kits don't tend to come out until after the final system has been shown off with software running at E3. That's when 3DS final dev kits came out, right after the last E3 before launch (and there were still even more-final dev kits that didn't go out to most developers until after the 3DS launch).

I hope the final dev kit has the boost in power we all are looking for.
but so far I'm... ok

Spoiler

Nintendo HD Titles

 

[HeySeuss]

What amazes me is that the Vigil quote says on par with current generations but the next sentence says "we're not doing anything to uprez the game". To me that tells me it could be done if they so chose, but probably don't see the need to put in the extra effort for a launch game for a new system. I don't think he's saying its underpowered but that they don't feel the need to push it anymore.

But then again, I've kept my expectations in check for the most part. I only expect 2x ps360 levels and I think the second generation of software will bare that out.

 

[TheCongressman1]

To me that tells me it could be done if they so chose, but probably don't see the need to put in the extra effort for a launch game for a new system. I don't think he's saying its underpowered but that they don't feel the need to push it anymore.

Yeah, same here. Not sure why people are interpreting it otherwise.

 

[guek]

But are they optimized the same. That is the question.
They've had far more time with the 360 than they have with the Wii U.

Yes, but that's not what wsippel said. You might be right but you're reaching for something that wasn't stated.

Some things to consider though:

- The performance of the Wii U depends on what the developers are doing with the screen. If the GPU is 3x the power of the 360, for example, using the controller in more ambitious ways can effectively split that power between the two screens in half.

- Game engines are not all equal. Some game engines may require more optimization to get them properly running on the Wii U than others. The system seems to be designed a bit differently compared to the 360, despite it being easy to port games and getting it running to at least in parity to the other consoles.

- First-gen games are not likely to show the full potential of the hardware, especially ported games that wasn't designed for the system from the ground up.

- Budget. There are not alot of 360/PS3 games that pushes those systems due to that, and the next gen will be worse.

Yeah I know all that. I also know that even if the wii u is literally just a repackaged 360, the 1st party titles are going to blow my mind. I haven't been this excited for nintendo software since about 2007/2008.

But ultimately, I just want this thing to competently run UE4. That's all I'm asking for, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[bgassassin]

I would simply say there is deliberate disinformation going on from sources. Thats the simplest and most likely answer.

The information from all sides is just far too contrdictory and regardless of people trying to spin it as well this doesnt really disqualify that etc one side is spewing pure bullshit it really is that simple.

I am not going to say which side that is but its obvious one side is.

I don't know. The more recent info when putting it all together makes it sound like the CPU is kind of a bottleneck. That's not something I would have expected.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Some things to consider though:

- The performance of the Wii U depends on what the developers are doing with the screen. If the GPU is 3x the power of the 360, for example, using the controller in more ambitious ways can effectively split that power between the two screens in half.

- Game engines are not all equal. Some game engines may require more optimization to get them properly running on the Wii U than others. The system seems to be designed a bit differently compared to the 360, despite it being easy to port games and getting it running to at least in parity to the other consoles.

- First-gen games are not likely to show the full potential of the hardware, especially ported games that wasn't designed for the system from the ground up.

- Budget. There are not alot of 360/PS3 games that pushes those systems due to that, and the next gen will be worse.

This coupled with the rumoured components seems to be the main thing. Hell going back watching some first gen XBox 360 games like BF2 MC it would be fair to say the same thing (on par with the xbox version just a bit cleaner)

 

[HylianTom]

Yeah, same here. Not sure why people are interpreting it otherwise.

Because they want this to be the reality. Simple as that. A powerful Nintendo console seems to frighten lots of people, for whatever reasons.

While reasonable people like you or Ace may throw-out outliers - both high and low - when weighing probabilities, these folks are grabbing-onto that low outlier for dear life.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

But are they optimized the same. That is the question.
They've had far more time with the 360 than they have with the Wii U.

Based on what we know, some of what guek said is impossible, specifically the 768MB of RAM.

Seriously, you guys just take the worst thing and run with it, every single time.
I may be the "overhyping fanboy" but my perception is grounded completely in reality on both sides of this.
We take what we know, we compare it to what we've heard, we throw out anything that seems suspicious (on either side) and we have a pretty good guess of what we'll get.

well I was saying that what you were saying is the worst case scenario, which is still an improvement. So I was actually saying something positive

 

[ViewtifulJC]

While reasonable people like Ace

ehhhhhhh

 

[HanShotFirst]

- The performance of the Wii U depends on what the developers are doing with the screen. If the GPU is 3x the power of the 360, for example, using the controller in more ambitious ways can effectively split that power between the two screens in half.

Depending on the game this could definitely happen, but I don't see how many games will have so much going on on both screens that it won't be any different than a game doing splitscreen multiplayer, graphics may be lowered but it won't make a world of a difference.

- First-gen games are not likely to show the full potential of the hardware, especially ported games that wasn't designed for the system from the ground up.

Exactly. Like I said before compare Resident evil 2 on the Dreamcast to Code Veronica. Or RE 2 on the Gamecube to REmake. Ports form the 360/PS3 won't be that much different unless the dev puts the resources to make them so.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Because they want this to be the reality. Simple as that. A powerful Nintendo console seems to frighten lots of people, for whatever reasons.

While reasonable people like you or Ace may throw-out outliers - both high and low - when weighing probabilities, these folks are grabbing-onto that low outlier for dear life.

Reasonable? Maybe you have spent a bit too much time in these threads.
He's like the official Wii-U hypeman. Taking the art of jumping to conclusions to the next level.

But then again, who else would be steering the hype-train?

 

[stupidvillager]

I guess I should clarify the statement a bit further: A company I won't name wrote that their engine performs "roughly the same and in some cases better" on Wii U. The engine in question is completely CPU bound, so the GPU doesn't matter and the DSP wasn't used. Said company also notes that the Wii U version now performs an order of magnitude faster compared to previous releases, which helps explaining some statements by 3rd parties: unoptimized middleware can bring even the strongest system to its knees.

The percentage isn't even that small. It also frees up the memory bus, as audio is highly time critical and DSPs have their own local buffers.

Does this not mean that the engine runs significantly faster now?

 

[guek]

The big problem with the "early gen games" rhetoric is that its contingent on big architectural leaps in technology. The same rule didn't really apply to the Wii for example. We saw footage of mario galaxy at E3 2006 and it's still one of its best looking games. From what I understand, there is no enormous leap to be head next gen for any of the consoles other than even more time and money requirements for development.

I predict that we're going to see another 1st party nintendo game at E3 that remains one of the system's most graphically impressive games for the entirety of the console's lifetime.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Yeah, same here. Not sure why people are interpreting it otherwise.

This is also how I interpreted it, BUT

and this is a big but

It is a Sir Mix-A-Lot sized but

That does not mean the system is a particularly huge leap over this generation. We all knew Nintendo was going to just catch up to this gen six years ago, not leapfrog it entirely. It will still be stronger than this current hardware, but stop expecting the world, guys.

 

[bgassassin]

Does this not mean that the engine runs significantly faster now?

Only if that's what "an order of magnitude" means.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I predict that we're going to see another 1st party nintendo game at E3 that remains one of the system's most graphically impressive games for the entirety of the console's lifetime.

Like Melee and Rogue Leader?

Well, Rogue Leader isn't first-party, but it was a launch title and its still one of the best looking GC games out there

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

This is also how I interpreted it, BUT

and this is a big but

It is a Sir Mix-A-Lot sized but

That does not mean the system is a particularly huge leap over this generation. We all knew Nintendo was going to just catch up to this gen six years ago, not leapfrog it entirely. It will still be stronger than this current hardware, but stop expecting the world, guys.

lets be real though, most people in this thread and the thread before this have been expecting exactly what you said, it's only when a comment comes up about it being equal or somehow weaker when people start jumping to extreme predictions. But when those don't come up, everyone seems pretty level. It'll be better in some places, plenty better in others (like RAM), and maybe similar in some places as well. Won't be PS4/720 level, but won't be wii/ps360 gap.

As far as I've seen, most people accept that truth. It's just a shame that when one single tidbit comes out people start flipping out and that's when the extremist in everyone lets loose, for both sides.

 

[guek]

Like Melee and Rogue Leader?

Well, Rogue Leader isn't first-party, but it was a launch title and its still one of the best looking GC games out there

I consider rogue leader to have been crafted by a combination of sorcery and other-world alchemy

 

[TheCongressman1]

That does not mean the system is a particularly huge leap over this generation. We all knew Nintendo was going to just catch up to this gen six years ago, not leapfrog it entirely. It will still be stronger than this current hardware, but stop expecting the world, guys.

I didn't say I expected that. I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't expect much in either direction.

 

[Mr Swine]

What amazes me is that the Vigil quote says on par with current generations but the next sentence says "we're not doing anything to uprez the game". To me that tells me it could be done if they so chose, but probably don't see the need to put in the extra effort for a launch game for a new system. I don't think he's saying its underpowered but that they don't feel the need to push it anymore.

But then again, I've kept my expectations in check for the most part. I only expect 2x ps360 levels and I think the second generation of software will bare that out.

It will be like it was with the 3DS, games look on par or worse than the best looking PSP games. People complained until Resident Evil Mercenaries 3D came 4 months after. Now Resident Evil Revelation looks like a generation above any PSP game. I suspect it will be the same here with Wii U

 

[Mojojo]

I hope the final dev kit has the boost in power we all are looking for.
but so far I'm... ok

More than a boost, they'll put.. Cosmic Power in it!

 

[fabricated backlash]

The big problem with the "early gen games" rhetoric is that its contingent on big architectural leaps in technology. The same rule didn't really apply to the Wii for example. We saw footage of mario galaxy at E3 2006 and it's still one of its best looking games. From what I understand, there is no enormous leap to be head next gen for any of the consoles other than even more time and money requirements for development.

I predict that we're going to see another 1st party nintendo game at E3 that remains one of the system's most graphically impressive games for the entirety of the console's lifetime.

I was more talking about the effort put into the projects, but you're right. We're not going to see a similar growing curve like we did on the 360. Even if PS4 and 720 go for current PC High End specs (and melt and burn down homes) budgets will be the main factor for a lower jump this gen.

When people harp on about dedicated PC development and how consoles are holding it back, they just need to take a look at console budgets. It's nice to have more power at your disposal, but ultimately it will make the market even more hostile toward small and middleground developers.

 

[TheCongressman1]

More than a boost, they'll put.. Cosmic Power in it!

I like you.

 

[schuelma]

This is also how I interpreted it, BUT

and this is a big but

It is a Sir Mix-A-Lot sized but

That does not mean the system is a particularly huge leap over this generation. We all knew Nintendo was going to just catch up to this gen six years ago, not leapfrog it entirely. It will still be stronger than this current hardware, but stop expecting the world, guys.

I trust your info. Hearing anything on Microsoft's end? I think that is the real key here- if they don't go batshit crazy I think the Wii U will be in that sweet spot of being very easy to port to.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I was a HUGE Rogue Squadron fan back in the day, and I remember first seeing Rogue Leader pics in USA Today. I was thinking, "Well, that is a pretty impressive cutscene!" Then I played the demo at Wal-Mart, and I just couldn't STOP playing it was like the next level of Rogue Squadron. I must have blew up that Death Star about a half dozen times.

Shame about Rebel Strike

and Factor 5 in general. Went super high budget on shitty motion-controlled game Lair and the failure burned them so bad they went bankrupt.

FUCK

 

[antonz]

Do you actually know?

I could make a pretty solid guess but im not going to offend anyone.

That said when someone makes a statement like the wii U gpu is actually weaker than what people have come to expect from current consoles that makes no sense. None whatsoever and no matter how much spin you want to add you cant spin that to be somehow compatible with everything else.

 

[guek]

More than a boost, they'll put.. Cosmic Power in it!

http://www.abload.de/img/silversurferiwata3u3k78.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

pure [s]gold[/s] silver

 

[herzogzwei1989]

opps, wrong thread.

 

[Linkup]

What amazes me is that the Vigil quote says on par with current generations but the next sentence says "we're not doing anything to uprez the game". To me that tells me it could be done if they so chose, but probably don't see the need to put in the extra effort for a launch game for a new system. I don't think he's saying its underpowered but that they don't feel the need to push it anymore.

That's pretty bad news though, even at this point they have no desire to take advantage of whatever extra power the Wii U may have? The Upad isn't going to entice many into grabbing the Wii U version and really Nintendo should already know the Upad simply isn't enough incentive for those gamers. Nintendo should be making effort to help devs get a prettier Wii U port of whatever game, especially on launch titles before a bad stigma is attached.

 

[Linkhero1]

This is also how I interpreted it, BUT

and this is a big but

It is a Sir Mix-A-Lot sized but

That does not mean the system is a particularly huge leap over this generation. We all knew Nintendo was going to just catch up to this gen six years ago, not leapfrog it entirely. It will still be stronger than this current hardware, but stop expecting the world, guys.

Well I don't think people are expecting it to be a huge leap over this generation. I believe people just want it somewhere in between 360/PS3 and Xbox3/PS4 in order to get third party support on the platform. When we get comments from Vigil saying it's on par with the 360 that might worry some people.

 

[TriGen]

lets be real though, most people in this thread and the thread before this have been expecting exactly what you said, it's only when a comment comes up about it being equal or somehow weaker when people start jumping to extreme predictions. But when those don't come up, everyone seems pretty level. It'll be better in some places, plenty better in others (like RAM), and maybe similar in some places as well. Won't be PS4/720 level, but won't be wii/ps360 gap.

As far as I've seen, most people accept that truth. It's just a shame that when one single tidbit comes out people start flipping out and that's when the extremist in everyone lets loose, for both sides.

I agree, it seems everyone is pretty level except when we get information to one extreme or the other.

 

[Daschysta]

That's pretty bad news though, even at this point they have no desire to take advantage of whatever extra power the Wii U may have? The Upad isn't going to entice many into grabbing the Wii U version and really Nintendo should already know the Upad simply isn't enough incentive for those gamers. Nintendo should be making effort to help devs get a prettier Wii U port of whatever game, especially on launch titles before a bad stigma is attached.

Early Xbox 360 games looked like upressed 360 titles. Nintendo's own software will be evidence of whatever graphical leap there is. The 3rd party games being AVAILABLE is the key. People will buy it for Nintendo games and the ability to play all important 3rd party games too, which imo is enough for alot of people and a huge healthy userbase. Ports are ports, the important thing is having the game on the system and the game playing the same way while looking respectable, and with the modern hardware in the Wii-U porting will be easy, unlike it was last time.

Hell epic is even saying most big games for next gen will stick with UE3 and I don't doubt UE4 will be scalable enough to run on the Wii-U too, even if it lacks some bells and whistles.

 

[Roo]

Early Xbox 360 games looked like upressed 360 titles. Nintendo's own software will be evidence of whatever graphical leap there is. The 3rd party games being AVAILABLE is the key. People will buy it for Nintendo games and the ability to play all important 3rd party games too, which imo is enough for alot of people and a huge healthy userbase. Ports are ports, the important thing is having the game on the system and the game playing the same way while looking respectable, and with the modern hardware in the Wii-U porting will be easy, unlike it was last time.

Hell epic is even saying most big games for next gen will stick with UE3 and I don't doubt UE4 will be scalable enough to run on the Wii-U too, even if it lacks some bells and whistles.

At the end all of them were Xbox360 games

 

[Like the hat?]

I had a dream about pikmin 3 HD. Who cares how 'weak' the console is.

 

[HeySeuss]

That's pretty bad news though, even at this point they have no desire to take advantage of whatever extra power the Wii U may have? The Upad isn't going to entice many into grabbing the Wii U version and really Nintendo should already know the Upad simply isn't enough incentive for those gamers. Nintendo should be making effort to help devs get a prettier Wii U port of whatever game, especially on launch titles before a bad stigma is attached.

I don't really see it that way at all. I see it as more of a good business decision because think about it. Launch window games typically sell themselves due to the lack of competition. They don't need to put any extra effort into a game that will sell regardless of how hard they push the system. The game is just a port, with some padlet(first time using that word, me likey) functionality tacked on. That way they can focus the development costs for the lead platform and transfer the assets over to the WiiU.

I mean let's be real here. If they can optimize the port and have it running within 6 weeks, then why would they waste more money than they have to?

 

[MrBelmontvedere]

It'll be better in some places, plenty better in others (like RAM), and maybe similar in some places as well. Won't be PS4/720 level, but won't be wii/ps360 gap.

well the end of that statement sounds plenty reasonable, particularly the "Won't be PS4/720 level" bit which I completely agree with. but the first part I quoted sounds way pessimistic.

PS360 (both) are aging decrepit senile old farts. even if Nintendo chose to be their usual stingy selves, it will absolutely BLOW AWAY PS360, because that shit is some serious old ass weak ass dog poo. they were fine when they came out 1,000 years ago (technology years, not literal years) but by now they are like this:

Nintendo could just completely phone this one in and CRUSH the ancient PS360.

just IMHO. but watch and see.

 

[ozfunghi]

My take on the Vigil comment of this week:


It's on par with current gen... What does that mean? He is talking about a generation, both PS3 and 360 were part of. If a console, like the original xbox, has roughly 2 to 3 times the RAM, more modern GPU with more advanced shaders than the PS2, does that somehow exclude it of being the same gen? The difference between PS2 and Xbox was rather significant. Even the Wii, while packing more oomph, didn't outclass the xbox and could therefor be considered on par with the previous gen (hardware wise)... of which PS2 was also part of. It wasn't a generational leap and it was certainly not part of the next gen.

Then, take into account the context of his comment. They got the port running quickly on WiiU, and while the hardware was more powerful, they were also going to be using the uPad. On the other hand, the difference wasn't thàt significant, so i'm sure Vigil was keeping in mind what the trade-off would be. They put, what, 5 people on the WiiU port of Darksiders II? Maybe they didn't think it was worth it to invest more into the port. So what does he say: "it's on par... there won't be graphical upgrades". What was he supposed to say? "It's noticeably more powerful but we're lazy and don't want to spend more resources on a game for an unproven platform"?

And there's the uPad to take into account. Use it intensively or not, will make a lot of difference on it's own. So of course, he's not going to take the trouble of explaining the above for a simple interview.

In conclusion, maybe his statement wasn't per se contradicting the former statements, but just worded without any nuance.

 

[botty]

Were people expecting Vigil to push Wii U to it's limits or something?