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[flyinpiranha]

From Digital Foundry article.


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-case-for-playstation-move-article?page=3

Well that kind of settles that it seems. Unless we don't trust Digital Foundry now. Although they didn't really go into detail.

 

[phisheep]

I think we're on the same page. As I said, in terms of the end result I think it comes down to questions of orientation calculation, precision differences therein. But I was just wondering if people had a different end-result in mind than me when talking about 'absolute pointing'.

I think we are mostly on the same page here. There's a few people still getting pointing and positioning muddled up when talking about the Move, but not so many as there used to be.

 

[bobbytkc]

I'd say that Wiimote is absolute with respect to the sensor bar, not the TV. Of course, to transform from the sensor bar space to the TV set space, you need a calibration (scale depending on the TV size, I think the default on Wii is around 25", and relative origin), which should be quite easy assuming the bar is in the TV plane. (There's a factor that depend on the vertical angle of the wiimote, but assuming that you're always around the same height from the ground, and since it's a second order term, that's not a big problem)

That calibration done, the wiimote won't ever drift, and the computation is direct (read the position of the centers of the two blobs, multiply by a simple calibration matrix, get the result in the TV space). The only threats is when you have other IR sources around.

It's a bit more difficult with Move. First, the reference directions can change a bit (magnetometer limit the horizontal drift, accelerometer the vertical drift, but they can't give precise references, or you wouldn't even need a gyroscope to begin with). Besides, gyroscopes will give you a direction, and if you want to get the intersection with the TV plane, you'll also need 3D position of the ball (or going left 1m would result in no change for the position pointed on screen). Nothing impossible, but that's less immediate, and thus can suffer more from imprecision. They already have pretty good result, though, and that'll probably improve over time...

I would have thought that they would just use the internal compass of the PS Move for the directional reference axis. So long as the gyropscope does its job properly, I do not see why there would be a drift, or why there would be any complication in working out the necessary polar angles. But perhaps I am missing something.

 

[poppabk]

Well that kind of settles that it seems. Unless we don't trust Digital Foundry now. Although they didn't really go into detail.

Settles what? There really is no information at all in the article other than the move is a great motion controller, which no-one is doubting.

 

[poppabk]

I would have thought that they would just use the internal compass of the PS Move for the directional reference axis. So long as the gyropscope does its job properly, I do not see why there would be a drift, or why there would be any complication in working out the necessary polar angles. But perhaps I am missing something.

The compass is not accurate enough, I believe. It is not going to tell you orientation within a fraction of a degree.

 

[phisheep]

I would have thought that they would just use the internal compass of the PS Move for the directional reference axis. So long as the gyropscope does its job properly, I do not see why there would be a drift, or why there would be any complication in working out the necessary polar angles. But perhaps I am missing something.

It is probably just not accurate enough to use as primary reference data. And that's not necessarily a critisism of the technology, it is just the the earth is too big! Step 5 ft to the side and you'll be missing pointing at your TV (or my TV at least). Not to mention all the other stray magnetic fields around.

It should be enough to correct for major drift/swing in the gyro data but not enough to rely on it solely.

 

[bobbytkc]

It is probably just not accurate enough to use as primary reference data. And that's not necessarily a critisism of the technology, it is just the the earth is too big! Step 5 ft to the side and you'll be missing pointing at your TV (or my TV at least). Not to mention all the other stray magnetic fields around.

It should be enough to correct for major drift/swing in the gyro data but not enough to rely on it solely.

I'm pretty sure you don't need it to be accurate. You need it to be Constant, so as long as you are able to leave it at some point and move the controller around and the measured direction does not fluctuate, you'll be fine. the exact direction of the north pole is not important, I am fairly sure. All the info we need, in my eyes, is to ensure that the gyroscope is accurate enough for us to work out the angles with respect to a constant direction, and you'll have sufficient information.

In fact, I am pretty sure that is why you point at the screen to calibrate when you start a game. You work out the default rotation matrix which will be factored out when you play the game. Of course, this is speculation on my part, I have never programmed a move controller, so i don't know what teething problems they'll encounter.

EDIT: I think I see your point now. Stepping five foot to the left is no problem. You have the glowy ball, so position coordinate and depth is known to centimetre accuracy, and surely you don't get drift on the position of the ball on the camera.

 

[poppabk]

I'm pretty sure you don't need it to be accurate. You need it to be Constant, so as long as you are able to leave it at some point and move the controller around and the measured direction does not fluctuate, you'll be fine. the exact direction of the north pole is not important, I am fairly sure. All the info we need, in my eyes, is to ensure that the gyroscope is accurate enough for us to work out the angles with respect to a constant direction, and you'll have sufficient information.

But it has to be constant and very precise, in that if you rotate the move 1 degree it is able to measure this difference.

 

[poppabk]

In fact, I am pretty sure that is why you point at the screen to calibrate when you start a game. You work out the default rotation matrix which will be factored out when you play the game. Of course, this is speculation on my part, I have never programmed a move controller, so i don't know what teething problems they'll encounter.

The pointing would be to calibrate the gyro's frame of reference.

 

[Sipowicz]

ok, so move is obviously the most sophisticated motion controls right now.

what i dont understand is
1. what exactly does it do different/better than the wiimote. other than the stuff that uses the wand and camera in concert?
2. why does it need to be calibrated if the fucking camera can see the ball?

 

[Koren]

I'm pretty sure you don't need it to be accurate. You need it to be Constant

Indeed. But the problem is that the noise on this kind of sensor is usually several degrees, because the effect is quite small. Besides, magnetic fields in a house can be pretty distorded. It's really difficult to use it as a precise reference point (when you need tenths or hundreds of degree for precision).
Still it's really useful to avoid drift. If it changes to much when compared to the integrated value of the gyroscope, then the zero of your gyroscope is probably wrong. By using gyroscope data through a high pass (anything under a second, for example) and magnetometer through a low pass, you get a very good sensor. The day I learned that Sony added a magnetometer in the Move, I was really happy.

In fact, I am pretty sure that is why you point at the screen to calibrate when you start a game. You work out the default rotation matrix which will be factored out when you play the game. Of course, this is speculation on my part, I have never programmed a move controller, so i don't know what teething problems they'll encounter.

You're perfectly right on this...

 

[bobbytkc]

deleted

 

[bobbytkc]

Indeed. But the problem is that the noise on this kind of sensor is usually several degrees, because the effect is quite small. Besides, magnetic fields in a house can be pretty distorded. It's really difficult to use it as a precise reference point (when you need tenths or hundreds of degree for precision).
Still it's really useful to avoid drift. If it changes to much when compared to the integrated value of the gyroscope, then the zero of your gyroscope is probably wrong. By using gyroscope data through a high pass (anything under a second, for example) and magnetometer through a low pass, you get a very good sensor. The day I learned that Sony added a magnetometer in the Move, I was really happy.

I see, well, at least there will be no long term drift since there is a compass. The error bar of several degrees, I suspect, is then mitigated with information from the other sensors then. Interesting, the kinds of thought processes that go into the design.

 

[poppabk]

ok, so move is obviously the most sophisticated motion controls right now.

what i dont understand is
1. what exactly does it do different/better than the wiimote. other than the stuff that uses the wand and camera in concert?
2. why does it need to be calibrated if the fucking camera can see the ball?

The camera/glowing ball is the major difference, allowing tracking of the location of the wand in 3 dimensions. Their are differences in the components used, but other than a mems compass (probably providing gross calibration), as far as we know it is similar technology. It requires calibration because errors in the tracking data from accelerometers and gyros accumulates over time, meaning that rotation data becomes increasingly inaccurate and has to be corrected by giving a new reference when the remote is in a known rotational configuration.

 

[phisheep]

I'm pretty sure you don't need it to be accurate. You need it to be Constant, so as long as you are able to leave it at some point and move the controller around and the measured direction does not fluctuate, you'll be fine. the exact direction of the north pole is not important, I am fairly sure. All the info we need, in my eyes, is to ensure that the gyroscope is accurate enough for us to work out the angles with respect to a constant direction, and you'll have sufficient information.

In fact, I am pretty sure that is why you point at the screen to calibrate when you start a game. You work out the default rotation matrix which will be factored out when you play the game. Of course, this is speculation on my part, I have never programmed a move controller, so i don't know what teething problems they'll encounter.

EDIT: I think I see your point now. Stepping five foot to the left is no problem. You have the glowy ball, so position coordinate and depth is known to centimetre accuracy, and surely you don't get drift on the position of the ball on the camera.

It is a wee bit more complicated than that. Of course you won't get drift on the absolute position of the ball wrt the camera, BUT if you are relying on both that and the absolute direction of the handle to end up with something that feels like pointing, then the angle of the handle is the problem. And if you step 5 feet left while keeping the angle constant wrt the earth and therefore the earth's magnetic field, you'll still be missing the TV.

It's even worse if that step sideways takes you closer to the giant electromagnet you keep by the fireplace just in case.

So I suspect that 'point at the screen' calibration for the giros is more important than it first seems.

Koren got it right:

Indeed. But the problem is that the noise on this kind of sensor is usually several degrees, because the effect is quite small. Besides, magnetic fields in a house can be pretty distorded. It's really difficult to use it as a precise reference point (when you need tenths or hundreds of degree for precision).
Still it's really useful to avoid drift. If it changes to much when compared to the integrated value of the gyroscope, then the zero of your gyroscope is probably wrong. By using gyroscope data through a high pass (anything under a second, for example) and magnetometer through a low pass, you get a very good sensor. The day I learned that Sony added a magnetometer in the Move, I was really happy.

 

[Koren]

ok, so move is obviously the most sophisticated motion controls right now.

what i dont understand is
1. what exactly does it do different/better than the wiimote. other than the stuff that uses the wand and camera in concert?

- 3D positionning (x, y, z) is done better than wiimote, because it can directly see the ball (wiimote rely on accelerometers when it's not seeing the sensor bar, and even when it see the sensor bar, there's ambiguities)

- Orientation mesurement is similar (can't use PSEye for this), except that Move has an additionnal magnetometer that give it a reference

- The pointing is done differently, with a more complex setup that raises some problems. But they managed to get it working, with some problems that could (or could not) disappear in the future

That's pretty much an excellent motion tracking system (again, that's close to what is used in real motion tracking systems), and decent pointing system (in its early days). Wiimote with WMP is a decent motion sensing system, as a motion tracking system, it's worse, but it's a quite good pointing systemp. Without WMP, pointing is the same, but motion tracking/sensing is worse.

More clear? Do we agree on this?

2. why does it need to be calibrated if the fucking camera can see the ball?

Several cases:

- it can't see the orientation of the ball, so even if the PS3 knows where it is, the PS3 don't know which direction it's facing (you can admit that the TV is in a vertical plane, but north or south... no clue)

- Z is not tracked as well as X/Y (you rely on the size of the ball, which is not really precise). So you may have to calibrate your Z position.

- then, people have different height, arm lenght, etc. So if you want all people to have a great gaming session, you have to measure the characteristics of the player that play

 

[cameltoe]

I can only speak about my person experiences with both controllers. So far, the Move seems much better, but it is also a pain in the ass compared to the Wii. Even with motion plus that has you calibrating in WSR, it never got to be as complicated as the move.

Complicated how? Move it to your shoulder, push button. Move it back downto your side, push button. Move it to your belt buckle, push button. Done. Takes all of 4 seconds.

 

[bobbytkc]

It is a wee bit more complicated than that. Of course you won't get drift on the absolute position of the ball wrt the camera, BUT if you are relying on both that and the absolute direction of the handle to end up with something that feels like pointing, then the angle of the handle is the problem. And if you step 5 feet left while keeping the angle constant wrt the earth and therefore the earth's magnetic field, you'll still be missing the TV.

It's even worse if that step sideways takes you closer to the giant electromagnet you keep by the fireplace just in case.

So I suspect that 'point at the screen' calibration for the giros is more important than it first seems.

Koren got it right:

Yes I see, I was thinking with respect to a stationary reference frame of course, that's the problem.

 

[kinggroin]

8 pages.

I love the wii as much as the next gamer, but I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that move was overall, a better motion controller than the wiimote. Kinda like how the dual shock improved on the n64 design.

 

[bobbytkc]

Well, wii VS Move aside. I learned something about the tech and design behind the technologies. So it is not entirely worthless.

 

[phisheep]

- 3D positionning (x, y, z) is done better than wiimote, because it can directly see the ball (wiimote rely on accelerometers when it's not seeing the sensor bar, and even when it see the sensor bar, there's ambiguities)

- Orientation mesurement is similar (can't use PSEye for this), except that Move has an additionnal magnetometer that give it a reference

- The pointing is done differently, with a more complex setup that raises some problems. But they managed to get it working, with some problems that could (or could not) disappear in the future

That's pretty much an excellent motion tracking system (again, that's close to what is used in real motion tracking systems), and decent pointing system (in its early days). Wiimote with WMP is a decent motion sensing system, as a motion tracking system, it's worse, but it's a quite good pointing systemp. Without WMP, pointing is the same, but motion tracking/sensing is worse.

More clear? Do we agree on this?

Seems about on the nail to me. Very broadly, they seem about equivalent at motion sensing (Move having the edge because of the magnet thing) and pointing (WM having the edge because of a more direct implementation), Move wins hands down on what you call motion tracking and I call position tracking - same thing.

What that turns into in gameplay depends very much on what devs come up with - and I rather suspect that - as with early Wii games - devs may well overreach the gameplay possibilities to start with until things settle down. Like everything else, subtlety is best, but that is more down to the game than the technology.

 

[Earl Cazone]

8 pages.

I love the wii as much as the next gamer, but I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that move was overall, a better motion controller than the wiimote. Kinda like how the dual shock improved on the n64 design.

well dual shock is a horrible controller, n64 may be limited because of the missing analogue stick, but overall its the better controller.

move is better though

 

[poppabk]

8 pages.

I love the wii as much as the next gamer, but I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that move was overall, a better motion controller than the wiimote. Kinda like how the dual shock improved on the n64 design.

The move launched only a couple of days ago. So any 'common knowledge' would actually be 'assumption' especially for something as subjective as a controller. I bet there are some people that would still prefer an N64 controller.

 

[Brofist]

The move launched only a couple of days ago. So any 'common knowledge' would actually be 'assumption' especially for something as subjective as a controller. I bet there are some people that would still prefer an N64 controller.

look up :lol

 

[kinggroin]

The move launched only a couple of days ago. So any 'common knowledge' would actually be 'assumption' especially for something as subjective as a controller. I bet there are some people that would still prefer an N64 controller.

We've had tech specs for a while though, no? I know software implementation can make or break the devices in question, but on a technical level is there anything the wiimote can do that the move cant do better?

 

[mrklaw]

So we're semantically clear, what do you mean by 'absolute pointing'? When I think of that, I think of, say, lightgun style pointing where it's mapped directly to the TV. I'm not sure if you mean something else.

As far as I know with pointing in each, the approach is different, but the intended end-result is the same - both ultimately give a x-y position of where the controller is pointing at on a virtual plane around the sensor bar or camera respectively.

The difference is in the process of getting that result. The question more specifically is one of relative precision, moreso wrt orientation - because, as you say, Move relies on its internal sensors for this. If there is any divergence between the two in the quality of the end result, I suspect this is where it would be.

Yes, I'm talking about light gun type pointing. I line up the wiimote/move and that corresponds to a location on the TV. Think light gun/graphics tablet

Relative pointing would be moving the cursor from it's current location based on user input. Both systems do this well, but I think thar is generally a more forgiving system, as the user can compensate for any inaccuracy - just move the controller a bit more. Think mouse


Doesn't the wii use the varying distances and angles of the IR LEDs to help it understand it's angle relative to the TV plane? What does move have to achieve the same thing?

 

[phisheep]

We've had tech specs for a while though, no? I know software implementation can make or break the devices in question, but on a technical level is there anything the wiimote can do that the move cant do better?

Looks like two things:
1) turn sideways as a NES controller
2) point

Now, the difference in pointing may be marginal and may not translate into significant differences in gameplay, but the technical implementation in Move is way more complicated and less direct - compensated for by all the other stuff that it does. But I don't think there is any mileage at this stage in claiming the the Move is necessarily better at EVERYTHING. It does a lot more though.

 

[babyghost853]

Hope this ends this debate about them being the same, I made a little demo with move, table tennis. Not the best quality( kids broke my camera, had to use webcam.) maybe someone can edit it but you get the general idea of how well move works for 1:1. I challenge anyone to show wii sports table tennis being played like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhFEEwTAYH8

This isn't to prove if the game is fun or not, fun is subjective, what I find fun someone else will find boring. To me this is fun, I love the challenge in this game.

 

[mrklaw]

8 pages.

I love the wii as much as the next gamer, but I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that move was overall, a better motion controller than the wiimote. Kinda like how the dual shock improved on the n64 design.

Seems like we're having a little fun digging around, trying to better understand what it does and why

 

[UntoldDreams]

- 3D positionning (x, y, z) is done better than wiimote, because it can directly see the ball (wiimote rely on accelerometers when it's not seeing the sensor bar, and even when it see the sensor bar, there's ambiguities)

- Orientation mesurement is similar (can't use PSEye for this), except that Move has an additionnal magnetometer that give it a reference

- The pointing is done differently, with a more complex setup that raises some problems. But they managed to get it working, with some problems that could (or could not) disappear in the future

That's pretty much an excellent motion tracking system (again, that's close to what is used in real motion tracking systems), and decent pointing system (in its early days). Wiimote with WMP is a decent motion sensing system, as a motion tracking system, it's worse, but it's a quite good pointing systemp. Without WMP, pointing is the same, but motion tracking/sensing is worse.

More clear? Do we agree on this?

Several cases:

- it can't see the orientation of the ball, so even if the PS3 knows where it is, the PS3 don't know which direction it's facing (you can admit that the TV is in a vertical plane, but north or south... no clue)

- Z is not tracked as well as X/Y (you rely on the size of the ball, which is not really precise). So you may have to calibrate your Z position.

- then, people have different height, arm lenght, etc. So if you want all people to have a great gaming session, you have to measure the characteristics of the player that play

Z plane is tracked very precisely through normalization of math beyond ball size which is why there is NO calibration for Z plane.

In the SDK for Move itself there is a global normalization function which can aggregate the movement beyond ball size using triangulation.

If you move the ball 1 inch to the left in 1/60th a second camera frame time (which helps minimize drift).

They can factor in data from your last known X,Y,Z position, measure your X,Y new translation using just accelerometers, then normalize that calculated position in 3D space by having a point to point line of sight which is the center of the ball.

Simply put, there would be a TINY amount of error from everything but normalized together you get a very accurate 1:1 motion detection system.

The size of the ball is an additional reference but the size becomes less useful the further you are away from the camera.

If it was only the size of the ball then a 320x240 image or even 640x480 at 8 feet would be MINISCULE and a game like Tumble simply would not function without drift issues.

Tumble does not have drift issues and its because Dr. Marks spent years refining the math for this. Ball Size calculations would not take years to develop an algorithm.

 

[Haint]

In their present states, Wii+ is superior for pointer based shooters because it's rock solid 99% of the time, with no drift and no need for centering or re-calibrating. Move, on the other hand, will constantly drift 99% of the time to varying degrees over the entire course of your play period. Move clearly has the advantage in general 1:1 motion applications, like manipulating sporting equipment, swords, or blocks.

 

[UntoldDreams]

In their present states, Wii+ is superior for pointer based shooters because it's rock solid 99% of the time, with no drift and no need for centering or re-calibrating. Move, on the other hand, will constantly drift 99% of the time to varying degrees over the entire course of your play period. Move clearly has the advantage in general 1:1 motion applications, like manipulating sporting equipment, swords, or blocks.

Everything drifts. Its about how you recalibrate the system to error correct.

The camera in move recenters absolute X,Y,Z position when it sees the ball this is what the Wiimote actually cannot do well.

The Wiimote however does have a camera pointing at the sensor bar. So it is visually attempting to figure out what you are pointing at.

Move is technically "blind" to what you are pointing at. It already has absolute X,Y,Z position so it must rely on gyroscope pointing which with enough resolution in the gyroscope should work fine.

Ideally, the Wiimote would have a sensor bar light at all 4 corners of the TV. Then it would have much better absolute pointing. As it is right now if you have a 70 inch TV the Wii doesn't handle that properly and its a well known issue.

The larger the TV ironically, the better the Gyroscope pointing will perform in Move.

 

[Jokeropia]

(wiimote rely on accelerometers when it's not seeing the sensor bar, and even when it see the sensor bar, there's ambiguities)

When the IR camera on the Wiimote can see the sensor bar, there are no ambiguities regarding it's position. It has two points of reference with a known distance between them which is enough to get both the distance and the coordinates using triangulation.

 

[poppabk]

They can factor in data from your last known X,Y,Z position, measure your X,Y new translation using just accelerometers, then normalize that calculated position in 3D space by having a point to point line of sight which is the center of the ball.

Simply put, there would be a TINY amount of error from everything but normalized together you get a very accurate 1:1 motion detection system.

The size of the ball is an additional reference but the size becomes less useful the further you are away from the camera.

Tumble does not have drift issues and its because Dr. Marks spent years refining the math for this.

This would only work if you are not maxing out the accelerometers, ie in a game like tumble where I am assuming that the motion is generally slow, not full force swinging of the remote. This also doesn't allow for correcting for gyroscope drift, an issue that would be minimized for a game like tumble also.

 

[UntoldDreams]

When the IR camera on the Wiimote can see the sensor bar, there are no ambiguities regarding it's position. It has two points of reference with a known distance between them which is enough to get both the distance and the coordinates using triangulation.

Not exactly.

AAA AAA

The above A's represent what the wiimote camera sees looking at the sensor bar lights.
That is actually not enough to extrapolate your absolute position in 3D space since it has no real way to determine your position.

Further, as distance increases the ability to calculate your position becomes significantly worse due to the resolution of the Wiimote camera.

If I said to you: Please determine your exact position by looking at a 2 candles 8 feet away you would not have the ability to figure this out from the low resolution camera imagery. If you drifted one inch to the left right up or down... The difference in camera imagery would be subpixel range for the Wiimote.

You would need increasingly high resolution camera imagery to offset the distance.

At some point the sensor bar just looks like 2 blurry spots of light to the Wiimote camera.

 

[Koren]

When the IR camera on the Wiimote can see the sensor bar, there are no ambiguities regarding it's position. It has two points of reference with a known distance between them which is enough to get both the distance and the coordinates using triangulation.

Position and orientation (x, y, z, r, t, w) : 6 values

position of two spots in the camera space (u1, v1, u2, v2) : 4 values

No it's not sufficient. rotation of the wiimote around the axis between the two leds (raise and look down) and the rotation on a circle that pass through both led can't be tracked with camera.

 

[UntoldDreams]

This would only work if you are not maxing out the accelerometers, ie in a game like tumble where I am assuming that the motion is generally slow, not full force swinging of the remote. This also doesn't allow for correcting for gyroscope drift, an issue that would be minimized for a game like tumble also.

Gyroscopic drift is supposed to be handled by gravity sensors & compass.
Not the camera.

Also... Basically you are saying "swinging hard is screwing up the sensors too fast for the camera to fix".

You are basically making an assumption here which I cannot correlate and frankly I don't think you can either. If you are listing it as a "concern" that the system might not take it very well at high speed then I could at least understand what you are saying.

Frankly, the point is this... The camera has 60 hertz or even 120 hertz operation. How fast would you have to move the remote to screw up accelerometers to the point where they cannot normalize this using visual data in 1/60th of a second?

Frankly, its a complex math issue and I *do beileve* that is why the system does operate as well as it does because Dr. Marks did indeed come up with a working solution.

If you have doubts I can relate but I think i will win this bet. The hard reality here is that the system works very well.

 

[poppabk]

Not exactly.

AAA AAA

The above A's represent what the wiimote camera sees looking at the sensor bar lights.
That is actually not enough to extrapolate your absolute position in 3D space since it has no real way to determine your position.

Further, as distance increases the ability to calculate your position becomes significantly worse due to the resolution of the Wiimote camera.

If I said to you: Please determine your exact position by looking at a 2 candles 8 feet away you would not have the ability to figure this out from the low resolution camera imagery. If you drifted one inch to the left right up or down... The difference in camera imagery would be subpixel range for the Wiimote.

You would need increasingly high resolution camera imagery to offset the distance.

At some point the sensor bar just looks like 2 blurry spots of light to the Wiimote camera.

But the main thing you need for pointing is to determine angle, which results in large changes even at great distance, generally the co-ordinates of the wiimote don't change at all during pointing. As far as I am aware the only time the IR is used to determine position is for moving towards and away from the camera in pool for example, where it sucks.

 

[Koren]

Z plane is tracked very precisely through normalization of math beyond ball size which is why there is NO calibration for Z plane.

I should have been more clear, sorry (I remember we already discussed the matter, even if I don't know if it was on this forum or on another one)

If you move sideways or up/down, the amount of motion in the screen compared to the accelerometers readings give you Z, I fully agree.

What I meant is that a single image won't give you a precise Z. You'll "calibrate" Z by simply moving the Move in any direction except towards the camera. It's not a bothersome process, and you'll probably never ever see the game do this (especially since it can compute it on the fly).

Maybe, since it's a very symple process, and fully automatic, you won't consider that as a calibration (the probability that your only motion are towards and away the camera is down to zero, expecially if you use Move for menus). That's a matter of semantics, I'd say. Anyway, the precision is welcome for people interested.

 

[poppabk]

Also... Basically you are saying "swinging hard is screwing up the sensors too fast for the camera to fix".

What I am saying is that if you max out the accelerometers rendering there data useless, then all you have is information from the camera to calculate x,y,z position. The camera will always do great with the x,y co-ordinates, but z becomes very difficult.

 

[distrbnce]

The pointer works perfectly for me in RE5. I played it for about 2 hours last night with a girl using Move for the first time, and she did surprisingly well (er, even yelling at me for not waiting to let her heal me). She does play some games, but I didn't expect her to be able to tackle tank controls AND Move... anyway I feel like a jerk for that.

This pointer nitpicking is nonsense. In practice, the Move pointer works like a mouse would, and I'd like to know what more you want.

I haven't played MAG yet, but that seems to be the best implementation of the pointer-style requirements, right? If Move can make RE5 controls accessible, I don't think we have anything to worry about.

You'll keep nitpicking, but it looks like an imaginary cause.

What I am saying is that if you max out the accelerometers rendering there data useless, then all you have is information from the camera to calculate x,y,z position. The camera will always do great with the x,y co-ordinates, but z becomes very difficult.

:lol you guys have some pretty keen knowledge about how this stuff works. I hope Dr. Marks and his friends can compare.

 

[dragonfart28]

Hope this ends this debate about them being the same, I made a little demo with move, table tennis. Not the best quality( kids broke my camera, had to use webcam.) maybe someone can edit it but you get the general idea of how well move works for 1:1. I challenge anyone to show wii sports table tennis being played like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhFEEwTAYH8

This isn't to prove if the game is fun or not, fun is subjective, what I find fun someone else will find boring. To me this is fun, I love the challenge in this game.

Move obviously has better 'positional 3D' as Wii lacks a camera to track the device in a 3D space. It's nice to see how the character's arm and wrist can mimic what the player is doing and can even shift position in a 3D space even though this additional functionality isn't actually pertinent to gameplay. Motion plus cannot shift at all in a 3D space and the racquet would likely stay along the same plane in Wii sports resort.

That being said, the experience is basically the same. It's definitely more granular and refined with the higher resolution graphics and input - but other than that it doesn't appear to be that dissimilar to the tennis game in Wii sports resort. It just doesn't really matter for gameplay, strictly speaking, to have this additional movement.

Either way, there's no doubt Move is much better for positional 3D. I would like to see more on the pointer though, as there has been more evidence amassing, showing that the Move pointer is inferior to Wii's pointer (with or without motion+). I'd like this issue to be settled once and for all.

 

[Rich!]

Haven't read this thread, but my opinions after extensively using both:

- The Move is far far better than the Wii Remote/motion plus on a technical basis.
- The Wii has Nintendo-developed games.

Personally, I think the Wii wins - purely due to the incredible games (Super Mario Galaxy 2 is my GOTY, and Resident Evil 4 shits all over 5). But it's early days for the Move. It'll be interesting to see what devs come up with - but from the history of third party shit on the Wii, I'm not too hopeful unfortunately.

 

[Lonely1]

The pointer works perfectly for me in RE5. I played it for about 2 hours last night with a girl using Move for the first time, and she did surprisingly well (er, even yelling at me for not waiting to let her heal me). She does play some games, but I didn't expect her to be able to tackle tank controls AND Move... anyway I feel like a jerk for that.

This pointer nitpicking is nonsense. In practice, the Move pointer works like a mouse would, and I'd like to know what more you want.

I haven't played MAG yet, but that seems to be the best implementation of the pointer-style requirements, right? If Move can make RE5 controls accessible, I don't think we have anything to worry about.

You'll keep nitpicking, but it looks like an imaginary cause.

There are mouses, and there are mouses. I can't play (or work) with a regular mouse. i need my high DPI Logitech gaming mouse. And is not only about making them accessible, is about making them superior. Most people I know consider my mouse setup unusable, too twitchy.

 

[distrbnce]

Move obviously has better 'positional 3D' as Wii lacks a camera to track the device in a 3D space. It's nice to see how the character's arm and wrist can mimic what the player is doing and can even shift position in a 3D space even though this additional functionality isn't actually pertinent to gameplay. Motion plus cannot shift at all in a 3D space and the racquet would likely stay along the same plane in Wii sports resort.

That being said, the experience, is basically the same. It's definitely more granular and refined with the higher resolution graphics and input - but other than that it doesn't appear to be that dissimilar to the tennis game in Wii sports resort. It just doesn't really matter for gameplay, strictly speaking, to have this additional movement.

Either way, there's no doubt Move is much better for positional 3D. I would like to see more on the pointer though, as there has been more evidence amassing, showing that the Move pointer is inferior to Wii's pointer (with or without motion+). I'd like this issue to be settled once and for all.

You only really realize how huge this difference is after you pick it up. Everyone does.

 

[poppabk]

:lol you guys have some pretty keen knowledge about how this stuff works. I hope Dr. Marks and his friends can compare.

I guarantee that they have run all kinds of tests etc and have numerous tweaks, tricks and fudges running in their software that aren't necessarily apparent to the end user. ie in Wii sports boxing it appears that the remote can detect its height from the ground, until you realize that it is only detecting the rotation, which is inherently different when you move your arms up or down in a boxing stance, height is irrelevant.

 

[gofreak]

That being said, the experience is basically the same. It's definitely more granular and refined with the higher resolution graphics and input - but other than that it doesn't appear to be that dissimilar to the tennis game in Wii sports resort. It just doesn't really matter for gameplay, strictly speaking, to have this additional movement.

I'm guessing you haven't played SC. There's a completely different more realistic range of shots you can bring to a game of table tennis in SC than in WSR, that very much affects the gameplay. For example, in SC I can move the paddle up to the net and hold it in position to return, just hold it still in the air and let the ball meet the paddle rather than vice versa. You can't pull shots like that in WSR. That's just one example, but the freedom to move the paddle arbitrarily and what that means for your game is quite significant and makes for a very different game than WSR table tennis.

TBH your comment's like saying 360 analog control doesn't really matter vs 4-way d-pad control. It's maybe even more of a stretch than that.

 

[babyghost853]

Move obviously has better 'positional 3D' as Wii lacks a camera to track the device in a 3D space. It's nice to see how the character's arm and wrist can mimic what the player is doing and can even shift position in a 3D space even though this additional functionality isn't actually pertinent to gameplay. Motion plus cannot shift at all in a 3D space and the racquet would likely stay along the same plane in Wii sports resort.

That being said, the experience is basically the same. It's definitely more granular and refined with the higher resolution graphics and input - but other than that it doesn't appear to be that dissimilar to the tennis game in Wii sports resort. It just doesn't really matter for gameplay, strictly speaking, to have this additional movement.

Either way, there's no doubt Move is much better for positional 3D. I would like to see more on the pointer though, as there has been more evidence amassing, showing that the Move pointer is inferior to Wii's pointer (with or without motion+). I'd like this issue to be settled once and for all.

1st bold) No it's not.
2nd bold) Yes it does, the video may not be the best quality, but you can clearly see how my movements translate in the ball, speed, angle and distance all affect where the ball goes and how much spin on placed on it. It's time to take off the goggles, better yet post a video showing me the same.

 

[Lonely1]

I'm guessing you haven't played SC. There's a completely different more realistic range of shots you can bring to a game of table tennis in SC than in WSR, that very much affects the gameplay. For example, in SC I can move the paddle up to the net and hold it in position to return, just hold it still in the air and let the ball meet the paddle rather than vice versa. You can't pull shots like that in WSR. That's just one example, but the freedom to move the paddle arbitrarily and what that means for your game is quite significant and makes for a very different game than WSR table tennis.

TBH your comment's like saying 360 analog control doesn't really matter vs 4-way d-pad control. It's maybe even more of a stretch than that.

That sound more like a limitation of the physics engine than the controls itself though.

 

[Raistlin]

Ideally, the Wiimote would have a sensor bar light at all 4 corners of the TV. Then it would have much better absolute pointing. As it is right now if you have a 70 inch TV the Wii doesn't handle that properly and its a well known issue.

The larger the TV ironically, the better the Gyroscope pointing will perform in Move.

Yep and yep