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[SapientWolf]

The thing is, the Wii has a very elegant solution for pointing that the Ps3 really doesn't tackle. Is a superset of the other components, but not of the Sensor bar/B&W IR camera setup. It only needs to track 2 points and do it fast with dedicated IR cameras to get effective pointing. doesn't matter if the Move has higher resolution Gyros or a 3 way compass. The fact that is simple doesn't means is less effective.

I have a Gyration Air Remote for the PC that points just fine so I don't think that it's something that requires a lot of hardware. But it's near useless for PC FPS games because you constantly have to re-center it.

 

[The M.O.B]

I would love to get a Move, if it didn't have an $100 entry fee. From what I have seen, it will be an awesome add-on for those with it.


One thing that both sides can agree on is :lol at that SIXAXIS BS Sony put in their controller. Nobody even mentions support for it anymore.

 

[VideoMan]

Eh. The tech in Move isn't really that much different than the Wiimote. All Move basically boils down to is accelerometers (Wii Remote) and a gyroscope (Wii Motion Plus) with the addition of a camera and a glowy ball.

As proof I offer up this video of some guy who taped a glowy ball to a Wii Remote and wrote some custom software to use with it.

He breaks it down into steps to make it easier to understand.

0:00-0:58 - Just the Wii Remote with Wii Motion Plus attached. Already you can see it really is pretty much true 1:1 motion. Without a camera however it only senses orientation, not it's position in 3D space.

0:58-2:06 - Now he puts the Wii Remote away and holds just a glowy ball. This shows the ability of the camera to track the position of the ball in 3D space.

2:06-3:17 - And now the money shot. He attaches the ball to the Wii Remote and just like that we have the equivalent of a Move wand. Full 1:1 tracking in 3D space. This ought to look familiar to anyone who has played or seen a video of Tumble.


SUPER BONUS FUN TIME!! - He adds a second Wii Remote on top the the monitor to enable head tracking Johnny Lee style. Then he picks up his WiiStation Move Motion Plus and waves it around. This is what Tumble would play like if it supported head tracking. Neat.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Eh. The tech in Move isn't really that much different than the Wiimote. All Move basically boils down to is accelerometers (Wii Remote) and a gyroscope (Wii Motion Plus) with the addition of a camera and a glowy ball.

As proof I offer up this video of some guy who taped a glowy ball to a Wii Remote and wrote some custom software to use with it.

So you just proved to me that you need a camera and glowy ball to get 1:1 AND 3D tracking. Doesn't that make Move "different" than the Wiimote? I mean even Sixaxis has accelerometers and gyroscopes but what makes it work is the glowy ball and the camera.

 

[Kogepan]

Eh. The tech in Move isn't really that much different than the Wiimote. All Move basically boils down to is accelerometers (Wii Remote) and a gyroscope (Wii Motion Plus) with the addition of a camera and a glowy ball.

As proof I offer up this video of some guy who taped a glowy ball to a Wii Remote and wrote some custom software to use with it.

He breaks it down into steps to make it easier to understand.

0:00-0:58 - Just the Wii Remote with Wii Motion Plus attached. Already you can see it really is pretty much true 1:1 motion. Without a camera however it only senses orientation, not it's position in 3D space.

0:58-2:06 - Now he puts the Wii Remote away and holds just a glowy ball. This shows the ability of the camera to track the position of the ball in 3D space.

2:06-3:17 - And now the money shot. He attaches the ball to the Wii Remote and just like that we have the equivalent of a Move wand. Full 1:1 tracking in 3D space. This ought to look familiar to anyone who has played or seen a video of Tumble.


SUPER BONUS FUN TIME!! - He adds a second Wii Remote on top the the monitor to enable head tracking Johnny Lee style. Then he picks up his WiiStation Move Motion Plus and waves it around. This is what Tumble would play like if it supported head tracking. Neat.

OK, so basically, if you upgrade the wii-mote with a plus attachment, plus ANOTHER homemade ball attachment, plus add a camera which isn't even sold by Nintendo, its ALMOST as good as the MOVE? You work for Sony Marketing right?

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

I'm sorry I admit I didn't throughly read through the previous 3 pages because I wanted to ignore all of the "lol Wii sux" and "lol Move sux" comments as well as people foolishly comparing Wii Sports to Sports Champions, but doesn't it boil down to that they are both pretty much the exact same only that Move has slightly superior gesture tracking while Motion Plus has slightly superior pointing accuracy?

Regardless. Nothing's a bigger fact of the two but software. Tech specs don't mean jack shit if you don't have competent developers pushing it.

 

[Ashes]

Eh. The tech in Move isn't really that much different than the Wiimote. All Move basically boils down to is accelerometers (Wii Remote) and a gyroscope (Wii Motion Plus) with the addition of a camera and a glowy ball.

As proof I offer up this video of some guy who taped a glowy ball to a Wii Remote and wrote some custom software to use with it.

He breaks it down into steps to make it easier to understand.

0:00-0:58 - Just the Wii Remote with Wii Motion Plus attached. Already you can see it really is pretty much true 1:1 motion. Without a camera however it only senses orientation, not it's position in 3D space.

0:58-2:06 - Now he puts the Wii Remote away and holds just a glowy ball. This shows the ability of the camera to track the position of the ball in 3D space.

2:06-3:17 - And now the money shot. He attaches the ball to the Wii Remote and just like that we have the equivalent of a Move wand. Full 1:1 tracking in 3D space. This ought to look familiar to anyone who has played or seen a video of Tumble.


SUPER BONUS FUN TIME!! - He adds a second Wii Remote on top the the monitor to enable head tracking Johnny Lee style. Then he picks up his WiiStation Move Motion Plus and waves it around. This is what Tumble would play like if it supported head tracking. Neat.

smh

VideoMan
30% Failure Rate
(Today, 07:28 AM)

 

[onken]

I think either are technically able to do pretty much anything, it's all down to how well that tech is implemented in software.

 

[Poyunch]

So would the ideal controller have accelerometers, the LED Ball with camera, and the Wii's IR tracking system with the Sensor Bar? :lol

 

[DidntKnowJack]

Eh. The tech in Move isn't really that much different than the Wiimote. All Move basically boils down to is accelerometers (Wii Remote) and a gyroscope (Wii Motion Plus) with the addition of a camera and a glowy ball.

As proof I offer up this video of some guy who taped a glowy ball to a Wii Remote and wrote some custom software to use with it.

He breaks it down into steps to make it easier to understand.

0:00-0:58 - Just the Wii Remote with Wii Motion Plus attached. Already you can see it really is pretty much true 1:1 motion. Without a camera however it only senses orientation, not it's position in 3D space.

0:58-2:06 - Now he puts the Wii Remote away and holds just a glowy ball. This shows the ability of the camera to track the position of the ball in 3D space.

2:06-3:17 - And now the money shot. He attaches the ball to the Wii Remote and just like that we have the equivalent of a Move wand. Full 1:1 tracking in 3D space. This ought to look familiar to anyone who has played or seen a video of Tumble.


SUPER BONUS FUN TIME!! - He adds a second Wii Remote on top the the monitor to enable head tracking Johnny Lee style. Then he picks up his WiiStation Move Motion Plus and waves it around. This is what Tumble would play like if it supported head tracking. Neat.

So...what Wii tech is even being used in that video? That Wii remote could have been a banana for Christ sake. None of that demo could have been possible without the PSEye or some other camera.

 

[jax (old)]

Eh. The tech in Move isn't really that much different than the Wiimote. All Move basically boils down to is accelerometers (Wii Remote) and a gyroscope (Wii Motion Plus) with the addition of a camera and a glowy ball.

As proof I offer up this video of some guy who taped a glowy ball to a Wii Remote and wrote some custom software to use with it.

He breaks it down into steps to make it easier to understand.

0:00-0:58 - Just the Wii Remote with Wii Motion Plus attached. Already you can see it really is pretty much true 1:1 motion. Without a camera however it only senses orientation, not it's position in 3D space.

0:58-2:06 - Now he puts the Wii Remote away and holds just a glowy ball. This shows the ability of the camera to track the position of the ball in 3D space.

2:06-3:17 - And now the money shot. He attaches the ball to the Wii Remote and just like that we have the equivalent of a Move wand. Full 1:1 tracking in 3D space. This ought to look familiar to anyone who has played or seen a video of Tumble.


SUPER BONUS FUN TIME!! - He adds a second Wii Remote on top the the monitor to enable head tracking Johnny Lee style. Then he picks up his WiiStation Move Motion Plus and waves it around. This is what Tumble would play like if it supported head tracking. Neat.

so?

its more the glowy ball + camera

which is what PSeye + move is.

0:00-0:58 - Just the Wii Remote with Wii Motion Plus attached. Already you can see it really is pretty much true 1:1 motion. Without a camera however it only senses orientation, not it's position in 3D space.

and you do realise... this is what gofreak/ a lot of people have been saying about wii anyhow. Because, that's what it is.

 

[CrushDance]

Played both. Not much different at all, the Move is more precise, so much too a fault that it almost takes the fun out of it. I prefer the Wiimote in terms of handling on screen.

Move=Better tech.

Wii=More fun.

*Personal opinion!

 

[Alx]

If the Move's accelerometer is at least equal to or better than the one inside the Wiimote- and it very well should be considering it's 4 years newer

That's something I was wondering about while reading this topic... I think that both use the same brand of accelerometers, with Move maybe using more recent ones, but I'm not sure about the different specs. Does anyone have a direct comparison of the inertial sensors ?

I recently spent some time playing around on the augmented reality styrofoam finger intro screen on Start the Party. I covered up the orb to see what happens when Move just relies on its accelerometers for XYZ. I did a variety of motions at various speeds, like baseball swings, sword slashes, punches, etc.

Even after just one swing, the accelerometer's estimates are inaccurate by an average of about 4-12 inches; and I wasn't even swinging near as hard as I would be in Sports Champions' gladiator duel game, as I had to maintain a gentle, two-handed grip on the Move to keep the orb covered.

The test may be biased though, since the game assumes that it can rely on the ball detection to correct the accelerometers drifting. So it is highly possible that there is no control loop to handle correctly the case where the ball is hidden for some time.

 

[Alx]

2:06-3:17 - And now the money shot. He attaches the ball to the Wii Remote and just like that we have the equivalent of a Move wand. Full 1:1 tracking in 3D space. This ought to look familiar to anyone who has played or seen a video of Tumble.

I wonder if you could McGyver your own wiimove only by adding an IR led on a wiimote, and putting a secondary wiimote on the TV. It would provide the same X-Y tracking of the user's hand from the TV field of view, the only thing missing from the Move ball tracking would be the distance measurement (which the held wiimote can sort of measure from the sensor bar, but it has to be pointed at it).
In theory it could work... of course it would require a subtle calibration and it's not really a "clean" solution, but it could be fun to do.

 

[painful fart]

Played both. Not much different at all, the Move is more precise, so much too a fault that it almost takes the fun out of it. I prefer the Wiimote in terms of handling on screen.

Move=Better tech.

Wii=More fun.

*Personal opinion!

I guess the fun part comes down to game developers, at least it is not the tech that is hindering the Move developers.

My guess is that Move games will initially be aimed more towards an older audience than Wii, but may change as it comes down in price.

 

[boiled goose]

so it seems Move should have the clear advantage over M+ when it comes to large motion tracking.

(of course there are different design philosophies, software implementations, framerate, etc. )
fanboys still cloud the debate though. Some who have played both say the difference is not that obvious. others say the move is light years ahead.


Pointer
When it comes to the pointer it is less clear. what has been said so far:

Move == motion+ and wiimote pointer
Wiimote better closer to the sensor than move closer to the camera.
Wiimote better when not directly infront of camera. (camera has to be moved if you standup or change position)
Wii definitely affected by light behind the screen. pretty much worthless with a lamp or window next to the tv. Not sure how move is affected.
Move better when reticule hits edges of screen. (Red steel 2 handled this pretty well with motio+ compensation)

I would like to know if you can use the move pointer in the same way you can use the wii pointer. For example, you dont even have to lift your hand, just do small wrist motions that translate to huge swings in the pointer on screen.

 

[phisheep]

Seems to me that most of the technical advantages of Move won’t make for a difference in appeal or sales, as they’ll be swamped by the difference in the games or preferences for what else the console can do. So far as pointing, waving, swinging and so on go we all found out long ago that one key thing about motion controls is you have to learn how to use them – get accustomed to their quirks. Chances are that anyone who plays a lot of Wii will find Move a bit tricky to adjust to and vice versa.

The key tech differences are in the things that the Wiimote can’t do at all – absolute positioning and the camera-based stuff like ‘augmented reality’ – and the extra power/graphics of the PS3 (and possibly online). That’ll come down to differences in price and game library.

My take is that the biggest impact on console sales will be how much PS3 dips into the Wii market – which is going to depend on how similar they are, rather than on differences. Can’t see that Move will significantly expand the market beyond people who were considering a Wii in the first place. Or possibly on whether people will buy an extra PS3 when/if their first one is hijacked by the rest of the family.

With game sales, probably little initial impact as between Wii and PS3 (as the install base overlaps so little), unless there’s greater opportunity for multiplatform development, though other things like graphics might get in the way of that, not to mention developer apathy on the Wii. Over time there may be more opportunity for developers to experiment and bring new stuff to the table across a larger install base. What’s important for that is that the two aren’t radically different.

Overall, it is the similarities between the two that will make the most difference to the market, not their differences. Therefore, not much point nitpicking about the differences at all.

Yeah, I know this is a nitpicking-the-differences thread, but needed saying.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

The difference is pretty obvious but it's not the huge deal people are making out it to be. Some times Move really does feel like the Wiimotion+Motion Plus should feel, other times it's slightly better, other times it's just the same.

I guess that if Nintendo wanted to make WSR as complicated as SCH (the current way people are measuring the two controllers i assume) they could have, but WSR's inherent design contains simplicity and user friendliness.

In reality, Move does not make a big difference. The big difference is the combination of motion control with high definition graphics and the support by Sony - if the controller is not abandoned in a couple of years, Move will get the support it deserves and will be exploited to good results, unlike Motion Plus which greatly enhanced the motion controls of the Wii and has only Zelda for it...

 

[Vagabundo]

From my own perspective the pointing has always been the most important part of the Wiimote. The plus is good, but waggle has always been pretty gimicky* to me.

I'm disappointed to see that the Move pointing is sub-par as I'm about to receive a PS3 for nothing** and was hoping to be able to play FPS's from my living room as I really enjoy FPS/light gun controls on the Wii.


*I haven't been Wii gaming in over a year due to other issues. About to restart that whole buzz sooon. RS2 will be first on the list.

** €80 for a PS3 Phat with BC, amounts to nuthin' in my opinion.


ASIDE: I will have a better gaming setup in the near future;PS3 in the living room hooked up to a nice LCD. Wii in the kitchen hooked up to a projector and a (CIV5) PC upstairs in the box room!!

 

[1-D_FTW]

I think it's general consensus that motion is superior on Move, but my main interest is on pointer controls (and not having to use dual analog) in first person shooters. It seems like there are some very mixed reviews. Somebody's description of RE5 in an earlier thread sounded pretty awful. It made it sound like it needed to be calibrated constantly and didn't allow for subtle flicks like you use on Wii.

Are there any people who have a Wii, love how pointer controls work in shooters, and has a Move for comparison? How are the differences in reality?

EDIT: Made the post after reading the first two pages and not seeing anything on the subject. Seems like finally some discussion on page 3. Hmm. Guess the jury is out and maybe it could be really good in shooters if done right.

 

[Maastricht]

Key differences are:

- the PS Eye camera for augmented reality and motion tracking of anything other than just the Move
- the ability to track in 3D 1:1. This is a much bigger difference than people probably realise. Tumble and Table Tennis are obvious examples but it also allows for all sorts of other things, including accurate motion speed tracking for lateral movements that do not involve the gyro. SC shows this pretty well by scoring your hits in Gladiator higher depending on the speed of the impact, or showing the top speed of travel the ping-pong ball in table tennis.
- the ability to give visual feedback by changing the color of the sphere (for instance Flight Control has nice colors for showing which cursor belongs to which player, matching cursor color with the sphere color)

Any confusion comes mostly from that the Move can scale down to work just like Wii Motion+. This includes using just the gyroscope for pointing, which with an on-screen cursor is generally good enough. Early talks suggested as much to developers and not sure yet of the lifespan of the battery, suggested that where possible devs should just stick to using the gyro for pointing with a cursor to save battery life. Another point of confusion may be that the Wii runs at such a low graphical resolution. If you look at Flight Control HD in 1080p, the cursor is still easily moved at just about a pixel level precision (though of course partly because there is all sorts of wonderful accelleration code in there). For the Wii you just never need that much precision - the graphical resolution isn't there to show it.

As TTP has shown, there are currently some issues with pointer drift in some games (but not all), but they don't seem to be a hardware issue, but a software/SDK revision issue. I think that MAG 1.04 shows that this is not an issue inherent to the Move controller. We'll find out soon enough if developers care to upgrade this particularly for stuff like Time Crisis or The Shoot.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

RE5 with Move is phenomenal. My accuracy skyrocketed.

 

[VideoMan]

So you just proved to me that you need a camera and glowy ball to get 1:1 AND 3D tracking. Doesn't that make Move "different" than the Wiimote? I mean even Sixaxis has accelerometers and gyroscopes but what makes it work is the glowy ball and the camera.

Well, the glowy ball and camera do the 3D tracking. The 1:1 orientation is tracked by accelerometers and gyroscope. Orientation can't be tracked at all by the ball/camera.

Move isn't so much "different" than the Wiimote than it is an evolution of the Wiimote. It takes everything Nintendo did with accelerometers and gyroscopes and adds glowy balls and cameras to increase it's functionality.

And Sixaxis doesn't have a gyroscope. It's just accelerometers like the bare Wii Remote.

OK, so basically, if you upgrade the wii-mote with a plus attachment, plus ANOTHER homemade ball attachment, plus add a camera which isn't even sold by Nintendo, its ALMOST as good as the MOVE?

Yes.

You work for Sony Marketing right?

No.

So...what Wii tech is even being used in that video? That Wii remote could have been a banana for Christ sake. None of that demo could have been possible without the PSEye or some other camera.

0:00-0:58 in the video is all Wii tech functionality (tracks the angle at which the controller is being held). The ball and camera aren't being used here. You can see in the video that the camera isn't even hooked up yet.

0:58-2:06 is the Ball/Camera functionality without any Wii tech (tracking the location of the controller in 3D space but not the angle at which it is being held)

2:06-3:17 is the combination of the two. Wii tech is determining the angle of the controller and the ball/camera is determining the location of the controller in 3D space.

and you do realise... this is what gofreak/ a lot of people have been saying about wii anyhow. Because, that's what it is.

Yes I do realize. That's why I posted it. Yes that is what the Wii is. The Wii is what I posted. Yes.

 

[mrklaw]

I think games like tumble and table tennis in SC kind of knock you over the head with the difference. I think those games do a pretty good job of showing its advantages.

Is the only tech difference the fact that the move uses the camera to note when the move is 'yawing', whereas the wiimote has problems with that (it can only do it when the front is pointing at the screen).

That happens to show up well in tumble.

For table tennis, has it been considered that it may just be the way the two games implement it? It seems like the actual motion tracking is possible on both platforms, just that perhaps WSR goes more for a canned/gesture based approach and SC chooses to go for 1:1 - perhaps specifically to showcase the tech?



My outstanding question is still pointing. 1:1 movement is nice, but pointing I think the jury is still out. What in the wii makes it have accurate lightgun action? Is it the spacing between the LEDs in the sensor bar, allowing more accurate triangulation of where you are aiming?

The move seems to be limited to knowing where the ball is in relation to the camera, and then needing to use the gyros etc to approximate angle etc. Seems like that'd end up more like Zelda's aiming method?

 

[boiled goose]

RE5 with Move is phenomenal. My accuracy skyrocketed.

how much do you have to move your hand though?

it can be very accurate but require arm motions.

(for wii shooters u dont even need to lift your arm from your lap, just slightly twist your wrist)

We need comparisons!

 

[boiled goose]

Is the only tech difference the fact that the move uses the camera to note when the move is 'yawing', whereas the wiimote has problems with that (it can only do it when the front is pointing at the screen).

That happens to show up well in tumble.

For table tennis, has it been considered that it may just be the way the two games implement it? It seems like the actual motion tracking is possible on both platforms, just that perhaps WSR goes more for a canned/gesture based approach and SC chooses to go for 1:1 - perhaps specifically to showcase the tech?



My outstanding question is still pointing. 1:1 movement is nice, but pointing I think the jury is still out. What in the wii makes it have accurate lightgun action? Is it the spacing between the LEDs in the sensor bar, allowing more accurate triangulation of where you are aiming?

The move seems to be limited to knowing where the ball is in relation to the camera, and then needing to use the gyros etc to approximate angle etc. Seems like that'd end up more like Zelda's aiming method?

what makes the wiimote good at pointing is the fact that the camera is on the wiimote and that the sensor bar has two points on it. Small movements = big changes on the pointer.

 

[evolution]

how much do you have to move your hand though?

it can be very accurate but require arm motions.

(for wii shooters u dont even need to lift your arm from your lap, just slightly twist your wrist)

We need comparisons!

I have this feeling that no matter how well pointing works in move, its just not gonna be good enough for you lol

 

[gofreak]

I'm trying to think of what sort of application would require that though (i.e. games where it isn't desirable for the game to revert to some "default" position during which input isn't required). All I can think of are novel forms of puzzle games. It isn't an issue for *most* applications because most current applications incorporate some form of "dead time" (i.e. your sword is sheathed or you're waiting for a return serve), which allows for recalibration.

I'd argue returning to a neutral isn't a general-case solution, and has to be 'designed in' to most games introducing compromises. There is dead-time in many games but these aren't necessarily opportunities to realistically reset the controller's position.

Like that example of tennis - in SC table tennis, returning the paddle to a default position in between short swings would completely change that game. It would be interruptive and 'less real''. As is I can line up my paddle exactly as I wish with no interruption. If my paddle had to revert to a given position every few seconds - or alternatively face mounting precision issues - I think I would design out the positioning element of the motion tracking altogether because it would become too frustrating (which coincidentally or not is precisely what Nintendo did with WSR).

Sword play might be a case where you could weave in resets more transparently, return the sword to a neutral with reasonable frequency. But it's still something of a compromise vs a scenario where you don't have to keep an eye on that.

Also, on a side note, I think tumble is 'just' an early exemplar for general hand-level object interaction in games. I think there's applications for that well beyond physics puzzles, could be applied to general richer low-level object interaction in a variety of game types (e.g. first person adventure-rs or shooters). I remember seeing a demo from a masters student who'd basically cloned the ps move setup, and the demos he made with that had this kind of 'VR' interaction. Like he'd walk over to a desk, and there was a teapot on the desk. He'd reach out and pick the teapot lid off by its nub and place it down on the table. Then pick up the teapot, turn it over, and out falls a key. Then picks up the key and brings it around and down to a locked drawer in the table, puts it in the lock, turns it, and then pulls out the drawer. All of that kind of stuff is the same stuff that tumble's doing but in another context.

Is the only tech difference the fact that the move uses the camera to note when the move is 'yawing', whereas the wiimote has problems with that (it can only do it when the front is pointing at the screen).

The camera isn't tracking angle at all. The camera is tracking xyz position of the controller relative to the camera's fixed position. M+ is relying on internal sensors to calculate position. Move should however have better orientation tracking also because of the extra magnetometer and reportedly better quality gyroscopes. I think back at GDC a poster said that magnetometers are particularly good at helping with yaw.

 

[jax (old)]

Somebody's description of RE5 in an earlier thread sounded pretty awful. It made it sound like it needed to be calibrated constantly and didn't allow for subtle flicks like you use on Wii.

where are you reading this RE5 = pretty awful business? I've played it (first on neogaf pretty much) and its very accurate. The complaints are about how move/controls are implemented but even then I thought it was great. Also, the opinions of people who played it are it works great.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23387039&postcount=886

Also, with regards to MOVE pointing:

personal experience.

RE5 excellent. I was getting headshots. Precision isn't its problem
flight control HD. excellent. You can draw curves to redirect planes around
SHOOT. excellent. You can nail the enemies all over


Anecdocatal (from articles I've read/posts)
Ruse. pointing. Works very well.
Dead Space Extraction. IGN write up. Very very accurate. works very well
MAG - ttp+Man (posters here). Very very accurate.


I see a trend.

 

[jax (old)]

I have this feeling that no matter how well pointing works in move, its just not gonna be good enough for you lol

that's pretty much what I thought about amtenori.

because he kept posting the same comments over and over again in both the sports champion and MOVEOT

The only real way to know is to play move. You can talk/debate it all you want but hands on wins everytime. Good or bad.

 

[gofreak]

That's something I was wondering about while reading this topic... I think that both use the same brand of accelerometers, with Move maybe using more recent ones, but I'm not sure about the different specs. Does anyone have a direct comparison of the inertial sensors ?

There's some information about Move's in this article, but there's isn't always a direct comparison with the wiimote.

http://kotaku.com/5502008/the-possi...f-playstations-move-according-to-the-inventor

The accelerometers in the Move, which measures direction of force, or the tilt position of the controller, have a bigger range than those in the DualShock 3 controllers, Marks said. He believes they also exceed those in the Wii Remote by a significant amount, but could not provide a measure of comparison. The gyroscopes, which detect rotation velocity, can detect 2,500 degrees per second. "That's very fast," he said. "You could spin it all the way around eight times in one second. You can't do that, but in a short time you could get a burst [of that speed.]" All of that movement data needs to be read by the PlayStation 3 with a high degree of finesse, Marks said, otherwise it is wasted. The system reads it by converting analog movement information into digital data. He said a lot of current motion-control systems use an 8-bit level of detection which results in the system being able to read 256 total values of movement data. "Ours is higher than that," he said, "Much better. Powers of two."

We have a figure for M+'s gryo sensitivity - 1600 degrees per second.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Waiting for my Move to get delivered.

Has anyone compared RE4 + Wiimote against RE5 + Move?

 

[ShinNL]

So...what Wii tech is even being used in that video? That Wii remote could have been a banana for Christ sake. None of that demo could have been possible without the PSEye or some other camera.

I believe this video is to counter that bullshit video by MuchRockness who claims that there's more of a difference between Move and Wii besides absolute tracking (and those who link to it). No it couldn't have been a banana, the first demonstration wasn't a camera test: it was a gyro/accelerometer test.

The only difference between Move and Wii are the camera implementation.

Move's ball + Eyetoy for absolute tracking.
Wii's IR camera for pointing.

Move uses the gyros to simulate the pointing experience, but gyros work extremely fast so it should work properly. The difference between the Wii's IR camera is minimal.

Wii uses the gyros to simulate absolute tracking. The difference between Move's Eyetoy implementation is huge, since the data is inaccurate after several seconds.

This thread shouldn't have been made. Any more "information" beyond the stuff written above is either made up, subjective opinion or wrong impression to due different game implementation.

I also like to say that those who link to the video made by MuchRockness are delusional. I posted the exact same "correct info" in this comments section and he has also replied. I assume I got a lot of plus-votes, thus surprisingly I don't see my comments written there anymore. He basically deleted legit unbiased information. To suggest there's any difference besides absolute positioning is ridiculous.

 

[Sipowicz]

as far as i can tell move is a bit more accurate and can do some extra stuff in conjunction with the web cam. other than that it is the exact same fucking thing a bit later

as well as this move is also an expensive peripheral for an expensive with pretty shit support. i still expect it to get beter support than the 3DS from some quarters (most notably EA)

 

[No45]

Waiting for my Move to get delivered.

Has anyone compared RE4 + Wiimote against RE5 + Move?

There are some impression in the main Move thread that compare both. For the most part they're identical I think, although there seems to be a difference in the way the reticule appears on screen (I think it's always centred on the PS3, where with the Wii it would appear wherever you're pointing).

 

[Snuggles]

So who won?

 

[wsippel]

Red Steel 2, no need to constant recalibration.

I know that Move is much better when full position tracking is in play (1-1 sports games, the Gladiator/Fighting game). But when the games needs a a fixed position for an on screen character, AKA everything that lets you explore the environment (FPS, TPS, Actions games, everything not on rails), the lack of absolute position tracking is WM+ is going to be a lot less important. And Like RedSteel 2 shows, the WM+ is capable of keeping track of fairly complex movements without constant calibration given those restrictions. So, I don't expect that the Wizard game (what's its title?) will control much better than Zelda: SwS.

As far as I understand, Red Steel 2 and Reginleiv use the pointer and the accelerometers to recalibrate Motion+. Works pretty well for games that constantly use the pointer as well as Motion+.

 

[Maastricht]

There's a vid on youtube showing that Red Steel 2 only uses the gyros. This shouldn't be surprising because when making a sword slash you point the wii-mote's camera's small field of view to areas where it cannot see the sensor bar all the time. If you don't believe it, you can test what happens if you slowly move the wii-mote up/downwards or left/right without tilting it.

 

[Fafalada]

For example, you dont even have to lift your hand, just do small wrist motions that translate to huge swings in the pointer on screen.

Yes.

It made it sound like it needed to be calibrated constantly and didn't allow for subtle flicks like you use on Wii.

That's nonsense - I played RE5 by resting both hands on the couch/lap, doing basically all aiming with my wrist, and I never needed a recalibration.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

So who won?

Me. Beat the shit outta Kenji!

 

[Snuggles]

Me. Beat the shit outta Kenji!

Who's Kenji? Is that the nickname for your penis?

 

[cakefoo]

There are two kinds of movements needing to be tracked if you want to have a complete motion tracker:
- lateral (XYZ)
- orientational (pitch, roll and yaw).

There are two kinds of tracking methods:
- Relative (accelerometers, gyros) - means that it tracks inertia/rotation, but only in estimates

- Absolute (Wiimote sensor bar/Move sphere, magnetometer) - means that it tracks with absolute certainty, and can be used to correct the relative trackers before they drift too noticeably.

Absolute methods are used to keep the relative methods in check.

Move works because all of its relative trackers (gyro for orientation and accelerometer for lateral XYZ movement) are backed by absolute methods before they're in dire need of saving (magnetometer for the gyro works nonstop and the orb for the accelerometer works as long as there is nothing occluding the sphere from the camera, which should be about 99+% of the time).

Wii on the other hand relies soley on the sensor bar for absolute corrections in both orientational and positional coordinates. The gyro in Motion Plus can go a pretty long time (dozens of seconds) without needing a check from the sensor bar, so it's fine. However, since the rate at which accelerometers lose their accuracy is hyper-fast in comparison to a good gyro, combined with the fact that the Wiimote in typical motion gameplay tends to go many seconds without pointing at the sensor bar, a mismatch occurs for XYZ tracking, and Wii developers have to completely scrap the idea of attempting positional tracking, and demote the accelerometer to lesser tasks like flick gestures. WSR uses orientational tracking alone for a lot of the key sports- swordfighting, frisbee and table tennis. Go test it out for yourself by slowly pivoting the controller around.

 

[Windom Earle]

Well, I bought a Wii a few weeks ago with motion+ included. So far it seems like a piece of shit (motion+ that is) to me. The only game that seems to support it is Wii Sports Resort and even then you have to re-calibrate it every two seconds. I don't have Move but I would imagine that it is far superior in that regard.

 

[Snuggles]

Well, I bought a Wii a few weeks ago with motion+ included. So far it seems like a piece of shit (motion+ that is) to me. The only game that seems to support it is Wii Sports Resort and even then you have to re-calibrate it every two seconds. I don't have Move but I would imagine that it is far superior in that regard.

I think there might be something wrong with your M+ if you have to recalibrate every 2 seconds. Either that or you might have OCD.
Contact your family doctor and have him assess the situation.

 

[wsippel]

Well, I bought a Wii a few weeks ago with motion+ included. So far it seems like a piece of shit (motion+ that is) to me. The only game that seems to support it is Wii Sports Resort and even then you have to re-calibrate it every two seconds. I don't have Move but I would imagine that it is far superior in that regard.

Red Steel 2 and Reginleiv also support Motion+ and require no recalibration.

 

[phisheep]

There are two kinds of movements needing to be tracked if you want to have a complete motion tracker:
- lateral (XYZ)
- orientational (pitch, roll and yaw).

There are two kinds of tracking methods:
- Relative (accelerometers, gyros) - means that it tracks inertia/rotation, but only in estimates

- Absolute (Wiimote sensor bar/Move sphere, magnetometer) - means that it tracks with absolute certainty, and can be used to correct the relative trackers before they drift too noticeably.

Absolute methods are used to keep the relative methods in check.

Move works because all of its relative trackers (gyro for orientation and accelerometer for lateral XYZ movement) are backed by absolute methods before they're in dire need of saving (magnetometer for the gyro works nonstop and the orb for the accelerometer works as long as there is nothing occluding the sphere from the camera, which should be about 99+% of the time).

Wii on the other hand relies soley on the sensor bar for absolute corrections in both orientational and positional coordinates. The gyro in Motion Plus can go a pretty long time (dozens of seconds) without needing a check from the sensor bar, so it's fine. However, since the rate at which accelerometers lose their accuracy is hyper-fast in comparison to a good gyro, combined with the fact that the Wiimote can go many seconds without pointing at the sensor bar, a mismatch occurs for XYZ tracking, and Wii developers have to completely scrap the idea of attempting positional tracking, and demote the accelerometer to lesser tasks like flick gestures.

Don't think that is quite right.

Accelerometers measure acceleration absolutely. That is what they are for. I think what you mean is that absolute acceleration is only useful for positioning if you know where you started. So the stuff about accelerometers losing their accuracy is rubbish (unless you are talking about using them for accuracy in measuring position, which is not their primary function).

Gyros drift of course, and need calibrating somehow. But the magnetometers and so on in the move can't fully compensate for that - because otherwise, why we still got gyros?

It is probably not quite true to say that Wii developers had to scrap positional tracking, since they weren't attempting positional tracking in the first place (except perhaps Eledees and bits of Okami), they were doing motion tracking, which is different.

As I posted above though, I don't think these differences are going to be of any real significance.

It is all a bit complicated.

 

[Koren]

I wonder if you could McGyver your own wiimove only by adding an IR led on a wiimote, and putting a secondary wiimote on the TV. It would provide the same X-Y tracking of the user's hand from the TV field of view, the only thing missing from the Move ball tracking would be the distance measurement (which the held wiimote can sort of measure from the sensor bar, but it has to be pointed at it).
In theory it could work... of course it would require a subtle calibration and it's not really a "clean" solution, but it could be fun to do.

You can, and it has been done (except that it was a retro-reflector ball, and there was a IR projector beside the wiimote under the TV). It works perfectly (and I'm currently trying to build one myself)

The fact is that there's the tech in Wiimote to do the same as Move. They decided to put the camera in the accessory, the beacon under the TV. Sony did the opposite.


I don't think there's a better tech, but rather different philosophies. I'm pretty sure Nintendo tried a lot of things, including Move-style possibilities (after all, that's the tech used in pro motion tracking!) and decided that they prefer limiting the motion tracking capabilities (Move is definitively a superior solution on this) to lay emphasis on pointing. It's easier to have a very good pointing with Wiimote than trying to infer it with gyroscopes/magnetometers. Besides, Nintendo seems to have had troubles finding reliable and cheap gyroscopes back in 2005.

I personnaly think that Wii strong point is the wiimote as a pointing device, but from a marketing point of view, and for more "casual" players, motion tracking is easier to present as a selling point.

 

[Koren]

Gyros drift of course, and need calibrating somehow. But the magnetometers and so on in the move can't fully compensate for that - because otherwise, why we still got gyros?

Because magnetometers are (really) not as precise, and have only a single reference direction, when you need two (the other can be gravity read by accelerometers, but you have to be still)

Besides, magnetometer are influenced by environment, and need calibration for precise values. I tried to use magnetometers for robotics, it's simply not enough, you need gyros for small turns.

 

[lowrider007]

You can, and it has been done (except that it was a retro-reflector ball, and there was a IR projector beside the wiimote under the TV). It works perfectly (and I'm currently trying to build one myself)

The fact is that there's the tech in Wiimote to do the same as Move. They decided to put the camera in the accessory, the beacon under the TV. Sony did the opposite.


I don't think there's a better tech, but rather different philosophies. I'm pretty sure Nintendo tried a lot of things, including Move-style possibilities (after all, that's the tech used in pro motion tracking!) and decided that they prefer limiting the motion tracking capabilities (Move is definitively a superior solution on this) to lay emphasis on pointing. It's easier to have a very good pointing with Wiimote than trying to infer it with gyroscopes/magnetometers. Besides, Nintendo seems to have had troubles finding reliable and cheap gyroscopes back in 2005.

I personnaly think that Wii strong point is the wiimote as a pointing device, but from a marketing point of view, and for more "casual" players, motion tracking is easier to present as a selling point.

Reading through this thread I think we are getting close to an almost agreeable conclusion here, Move is better for motion tracking, and the Wiimote is better as a pointing device, from using both controllers quite extensively thus far I agree with this and have came to the same conclusion myself.

 

[Koren]

Move uses the gyros to simulate the pointing experience, but gyros work extremely fast so it should work properly.

The gyros are really fast, but the information they give is always a bit noisy. The latency you see with pointers is because of low-pass filters that try to remove this noise (or you would get a shaky pointer, and rounding errors can even introduce more drift). There were the same kind of latency with pointer in some early Wii games, for the same reason.

You can decrease the latency using filters with a higher frequency threshold, or by using more complex filters. The minimal latency depend on the noise itself, so it's difficult to know how low it can become. I've good hopes, we'll see...