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[mrklaw]

You can, and it has been done (except that it was a retro-reflector ball, and there was a IR projector beside the wiimote under the TV). It works perfectly (and I'm currently trying to build one myself)

The fact is that there's the tech in Wiimote to do the same as Move. They decided to put the camera in the accessory, the beacon under the TV. Sony did the opposite.


I don't think there's a better tech, but rather different philosophies. I'm pretty sure Nintendo tried a lot of things, including Move-style possibilities (after all, that's the tech used in pro motion tracking!) and decided that they prefer limiting the motion tracking capabilities (Move is definitively a superior solution on this) to lay emphasis on pointing. It's easier to have a very good pointing with Wiimote than trying to infer it with gyroscopes/magnetometers. Besides, Nintendo seems to have had troubles finding reliable and cheap gyroscopes back in 2005.

I personnaly think that Wii strong point is the wiimote as a pointing device, but from a marketing point of view, and for more "casual" players, motion tracking is easier to present as a selling point.

The tech is similar, but the results are not.

The tech in the wiimote means that the camera can only see the sensor bar when the wiimote is pointing towards it. The PSeye can see the orb almost all of the time, no matter what direction the move is pointing in. Thats the key difference it seems.

 

[tassletine]

How is the pointer worse, to me it seems exactly the same as the Wii. As for not liking motion controls, then it was kind of pointless trying motion controls. For games like Sports Champion, I would much prefer accurate motion controls. As for quick snappy controls, the Move can also do that, it is all up to the developer, but the tech is there whether you want accurate controls or quick snappy controls, doesn't the full Sports Champion have easy mode that make the controls easier but less accurate?

It depends on the program, but it's definitely slower. I have to say I'm very sensitive to this sort of thing. I almost stopped playing the new Mario Galaxy on an HDTV because I played the original on a CRT and it felt so different.
It helps that the Wii runs at 60fps though so there's definitely room for improvement there.

But you're right of course, it's all down to the developer. I think I just don't like 1:1 controls but I expected I would. I have nothing against motion controls.
It might work for me when you're actually looking through someone's eyes with a virtual hand in front of you but right now I'm making these big movements and seeing them replicated 'smaller' on a TV. This feels completely wrong to me as it's the opposite of what I've been doing my whole life.

 

[tassletine]

Originally Posted by tassletine:
I'm already annoyed that HD games have slowed down due to being 30fps (or lower) with additional lag on Plasmas/LCD's. All these new motion controls just make it worse. Games are losing their spark.

?

-- Plasmas have a delay on them compared to CRT's. Motion controls also take time to process. There's even a slight lag on wired controllers vs wireless.

 

[Alx]

There's even a slight lag on wired controllers vs wireless.

That's what I thought/felt, too, but I saw a link to a test a few days ago that disproved it, based on VF5...

 

[1-D_FTW]

That's what I thought/felt, too, but I saw a link to a test a few days ago that disproved it, based on VF5...

I don't know. There's a section in Metroid Prime where you're in a ball on scaffolds with lots of turns and remember playing it way back and having lots of trouble with the wavebird. Had to be extremely cautious. Plugged in a wired controller and could rip right through it. That was my first experience that wireless controllers have some drawbacks.

Didn't think that particular section was much easier with the Wiimote in Metroid Prime Trilogy. So it wasn't just because the Wavebird was old technology.

I'm not saying I don't prefer wireless (because a bunch of chords getting tangled in a rat's nest is the alternative), but there is a subtle penalty to be paid.

I've gone back and forth between wired 360 controllers and wireless and even though I can feel the slight lag with wireless, it's still worth it. Trackmania United I definitely feel it in.

 

[gofreak]

Don't think that is quite right.

Accelerometers measure acceleration absolutely. That is what they are for. I think what you mean is that absolute acceleration is only useful for positioning if you know where you started. So the stuff about accelerometers losing their accuracy is rubbish (unless you are talking about using them for accuracy in measuring position, which is not their primary function).

It's what M+ relies on to track relative position. With the addition of the gyro you can distinguish between acceleration due to linear motion and acceleration due to rotation. If you add up your accelerations due to linear motion in a given timeframe, and apply that to a starting point, you can tell your current position relative to that starting point. But errors do accumulate quickly in the the data accelerometers report so after mere seconds, your reported position will be significantly inaccurate.

It is probably not quite true to say that Wii developers had to scrap positional tracking, since they weren't attempting positional tracking in the first place.

That seems a bit uncanny though, don't you think? I think it's perhaps more credible that this is a case of hardware capability informing design decision rather than vice versa.

IMO, wrt motion tracking Move is as much an improvement over M+ as M+ was over the original Wiimote. M+ brought unambiguous, precise and prolonged tracking of orientation changes around all three axes. Move brings on top of that unambiguous, precise and prolonged tracking of position changes over time - this is as significant an improvement as M+'s. General motion tracking/motion capture requires both kinds of tracking, it's what makes for a complete solution.

 

[A.CHAP]

If im understanding this correctly the move pointer is controlled by the PS eye seeing the glowing ball and the gyroscopes in the move calculating the angle its pointing at.

So the move uses motion control for its pointer where the wii just uses th IR camera in the mote?

If this is the case would the move require recalibration while playing an FPS like it does in SC? Does this also mean that you could experience drift while playing?

This is quite different to the wii which does not need any calibration for pointer control and IIRC can use the IR camera and sensor bar to recalibrate the WM+ while you play(I think RS2 did this).

Im not much of a tech head so i may have some of this wrong but what effect would any of this have on the way shooters play on each system?

 

[phisheep]

That seems a bit uncanny though, don't you think? I think it's perhaps more credible that this is a case of hardware capability informing design decision rather than vice versa.

Same thing I think. I don't see there is anything fundamentally wrong with hardware capability informing design decision.

IMO, wrt motion tracking Move is as much an improvement over M+ as M+ was over the original Wiimote. M+ brought unambiguous, precise and prolonged tracking of orientation changes around all three axes. Move brings on top of that unambiguous, precise and prolonged tracking of position changes over time - this is as significant an improvement as M+'s. General motion tracking/motion capture requires both kinds of tracking, it's what makes for a complete solution.

I think we get into a bit of a muddle with the generic term 'motion tracking', because there are so many components to it. Certainly Move holds the aces for positon tracking, and I can't see much of a (significant to the user) difference in the tracking of pure motion in terms of acceleration and change of orientation.

To that extent, it is to my mind a bit misleading to suggest that the Move does the same thing only better. It does more stuff. This is really only a semantic/mindset difference rather than anything substantial though.

 

[Shurs]

Can we get a comparison chart up in this bitch?

 

[TheExecutive]

0:58-2:06 - Now he puts the Wii Remote away and holds just a glowy ball. This shows the ability of the camera to track the position of the ball in 3D space.

Um, this is kind of a big deal. Have you spent any real time with the Move? Like hours?

 

[BattleMonkey]

Than the entire Wii library?

Seeing as the Move blows away a regular Wiimote tech wise in capability, it seems like a big deal when right from the start people are having to compare M+ to Move for a fair comparison.

As has been said several times the Move is a superior motion control implementation, but software support will be all that matter anyways. M+ was pretty much DOA, but again the thread is pretty much about comparing tech, not game library.

 

[Windom Earle]

I think there might be something wrong with your M+ if you have to recalibrate every 2 seconds. Either that or you might have OCD.
Contact your family doctor and have him assess the situation.

I was playing the sword fighting with a friend and it decalibrated all the time. Quite annoying.

Red Steel 2 and Reginleiv also support Motion+ and require no recalibration.

Three games, wow. So Move already overtook it.

 

[Double D]

I've glanced over all the pages in the thread and haven't seen anyone talk about how you can use two move controllers at once. Maybe I missed it, but that is kind of a huge deal to me, and to my knowledge, I don't think any Wii games allow this.

Sure, SC isn't a killer app, but it does a great job of showcasing the possibilities of future move games as well as provide some pretty fun minigames in the process. Archery can get boring after a bit, but I'll be damned if everyone I've shown that game to hasn't been blown away by the fidelity and intuitiveness of using the two move controllers.

Table Tennis, even though it doesn't use two moves, is my favorite game of the bunch and I am still in awe of how fantastic it tracks your every move. It's just so damn impressive to me, and it's everything I have wanted the Wii to be since day one. Anyways, I'm really excited to see this applied to 'bigger' games and after experiencing the tech I'm sure there are devs out there that can make this happen.

 

[Veal]

So basically, if Nintendo released a new sensor bar with an integrated webcam+WiiSpeak, the functionality of the Move could be replicated? Assuming that the end user has an M+? That could be an interesting proposition.

 

[MrPliskin]

So basically, if Nintendo released a new sensor bar with an integrated webcam+WiiSpeak, the functionality of the Move could be replicated? Assuming that the end user has an M+? That could be an interesting proposition.

There would need to be something on the Wii Remote for the camera to detect, ala the sphere.

So technically, for the Wii to be on Par w/Move, it would need a Camera/Mic Bar, M+, and another attachment that can be tracked by a camera.

 

[1-D_FTW]

There would need to be something on the Wii Remote for the camera to detect, ala the sphere.

So technically, for the Wii to be on Par w/Move, it would need a Camera/Mic Bar, M+, and another attachment that can be tracked by a camera.

Maybe have the tip of the remote be .o. The .'s being leds and the o being the camera.

 

[jax (old)]

So basically, if Nintendo released a new sensor bar with an integrated webcam+WiiSpeak, the functionality of the Move could be replicated? Assuming that the end user has an M+? That could be an interesting proposition.

who's going to buy it though

wiimote + nunchuck+ mp+ + webcam + wiispeak.


that's if you're coming in fresh. Interesting proposition or not.. Nintendo 1stparty peripherals aren't cheap.

 

[jiggles]

So basically, if Nintendo released a new sensor bar with an integrated webcam+WiiSpeak, the functionality of the Move could be replicated?

They'd also need to change the Wiimote to glow, and add a magnetic sensor to allow for pointing while not looking at the sensor bar.

The three axis gyro in the Move is also much better than the split gyro solution in the WM+. You need some complicated 4-dimensional mathematics to track what direction the Wiimote is pointing, while Move (presumably) just spits out a standardised orientation value. Anton and Dr. Marks have made a point of stressing in interviews that they've been praised by developers for the device giving them the data they WANT from it.

 

[Koren]

The three axis gyro in the Move is also much better than the split gyro solution in the WM+.

Care to elaborate ?

The tech is similar, but the results are not.

The tech in the wiimote means that the camera can only see the sensor bar when the wiimote is pointing towards it. The PSeye can see the orb almost all of the time, no matter what direction the move is pointing in. Thats the key difference it seems.

That's exactly what I was saying, though... why quote me? I just said that Nintendo had a similar tech, but went with a different solution because they wanted the wiimote to act as a pointer, even if that means worse motion tracking.

 

[Penguin]

who's going to buy it though

wiimote + nunchuck+ mp+ + webcam + wiispeak.


that's if you're coming in fresh. Interesting proposition or not.. Nintendo 1stparty peripherals aren't cheap.

I'm not sure why WiiSpeak is included in that, do people add the price of a blue tooth headset to PS3?

And everything except the "Webcam" comes in the box now so as a beginner you really wouldn't be paying that much more for it.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

In short, Move sacrifices the 1-1 absolute pointing of the Wiimote in favour of 1-1 absolute positioning.

There are other factors to consider such as the move's inability to support more than 3 players (when the subcontroller/DS3 is used in tandem), the lack of a speaker and the inability to use the Move as a NES style controller (in exchange for the ability to have augmented reality games with the camera). But that is the main difference between the two.

The real question to ask yourself is whether or not the absolute positioning is worth the sacrifice of the absolute pointer...

 

[jax (old)]

I'm not sure why WiiSpeak is included in that, do people add the price of a blue tooth headset to PS3?

And everything except the "Webcam" comes in the box now so as a beginner you really wouldn't be paying that much more for it.

I didn't put wiispeak in there. Person I was quoting did.

 

[Maastricht]

And everything except the "Webcam" comes in the box now so as a beginner you really wouldn't be paying that much more for it.

No, the lightbulb is also still missing. Maybe they can make one that integrates into a new 'condom' that is now ball-shaped at the end. :lol Of course, that's assuming that this isn't patented by Sony, which of course it is.

 

[donny2112]

.

You need to pay attention to context. The point is that comparing the number of Motion+ games to Move games is missing the fact that many of the Move games (particularly the pointer based ones) would be standard Wiimote games.

 

[Koren]

I'm not sure why WiiSpeak is included in that, do people add the price of a blue tooth headset to PS3?

Because there's a mic in the PSEye, if I'm not mistaken?

Besides, I'm wondering whether Nintendo could just sell a plastic stand for a wiimote and simple IR bulbs (read, a battery, an IR led and a diffuser) and thus release a very cheap 3D spatial tracker. You'd have to fix the bulb to a wiimote to get everything, but owning two wiimotes is not a big issue. In a word: you don't really need a camera for tracking since there's already one in the box...

 

[BattleMonkey]

You need to pay attention to context. The point is that comparing the number of Motion+ games to Move games is missing the fact that many of the Move games (particularly the pointer based ones) would be standard Wiimote games.

I don't need to pay attention to a point that has really little to do with what the thread is about.

Even the point you are trying to make doesn't even work out seeing as Move in most of it's games especially 3rd party are being done as optional implementations and in no way "standard wiimote games".

Course I find the whole notion of motion controls moot when it boils down to nothing more than a pointer. I'm not even buying any of these new motion controls like Move and Kinect, but it's clear the tech is superior in Move (hard to compare Kinect at this point).

 

[Koren]

In short, Move sacrifices the 1-1 absolute pointing of the Wiimote in favour of 1-1 absolute positioning.
[...]
The real question to ask yourself is whether or not the absolute positioning is worth the sacrifice of the absolute pointer...

To be fair, Move seems to be closer to 1:1 pointing (depending on how they can get rid of latency, and with the hypothesis you don't move, or the calibration problem is more complex) than Wiimote is to 1:1 motion tracking (it has quite decent angles, but not position)

Outside of techs, after a couple of years with Wii, I'd say that pointing controls brought more to me game-wise than motion controls. I really want to see pointing expand in next generation hardware (even outside of video games, I use a wiimote for my HTPC, and it's great)

 

[SolidusDave]

Because there's a mic in the PSEye, if I'm not mistaken?

The PlayStation Eye features a built-in four-capsule microphone array, with which the PlayStation 3 can employ technologies for multi-directional voice location tracking, echo cancellation, and background noise suppression. This allows the peripheral to be used for speech recognition and audio chat in noisy environments without the use of a headset. The PlayStation Eye microphone array operates with each channel processing 16-bit samples at a sampling rate of 48 kilohertz, and a signal-to-noise ratio of 90 decibels.

in other words, even if Wii Speak was part of the motion controller and a webcam, it would still suck compared to the Eye.

 

[gofreak]

In short, Move sacrifices the 1-1 absolute pointing of the Wiimote in favour of 1-1 absolute positioning.

Neither is 'absolute'.

Both are relative to the thing hanging on top of your TV, or whatever (be it sensor bar or camera).

If you want either to be more absolute with respect to your TV - like a lightgun - you have to go through a calibration process to figure out the edges of the TV, more or less.

The only difference between Move and the Wiimote here is questions of precision wrt orientation and whether or not Move's precision here is enough to effectvely make no difference in laser pointing applications. That seems to be an open question, although I think there's indications in some of the games - apparently - that Move can be 'good enough' for this when the data is used and treated properly.

In fact, the only difference wrt capability in pointing is, in fact, in Move's favour. That is, it can do angle-independent pointing for things like drawing applications, while the wiimote cannot.

 

[donny2112]

I don't need to pay attention to a point that has really little to do with what the thread is about.

It was what that discussion (including your comment at the time) were about, though.

"standard wiimote games".

As in not requiring Motion+.

Edit:

but it's clear the tech is superior in Move

Search is obviously hopelessly broken, but that's been my position all along. Certain aspects may be basically equivalent (e.g. pointer), but the actual capabilities are higher with Move. They're close enough that Move/Wii cross-platform games will probably get a boost (e.g. Aragorn's Quest, Dead Space Extraction), though.

 

[Veal]

who's going to buy it though

wiimote + nunchuck+ mp+ + webcam + wiispeak.


that's if you're coming in fresh. Interesting proposition or not.. Nintendo 1stparty peripherals aren't cheap.

You're right. I just think it's interesting that all of the pieces are there if nintendo should choose to do something like that. Not that they should or anything. Maybe for their next console? They could dramatically upgrade the capabilities of their current tech for what would seem like very little.

I'm not sure why WiiSpeak is included in that, do people add the price of a blue tooth headset to PS3?

And everything except the "Webcam" comes in the box now so as a beginner you really wouldn't be paying that much more for it.

The Eyetoy has a 4 mic array. I included the Wiispeak for parity.

Koren has been pretty much on point with all of his posts.

 

[BattleMonkey]

It was what that discussion (including your comment at the time) were about, though.

Not really a discussion I was in, I was just commenting on the failed support of M+

 

[Norml]

From Digital Foundry article.

From a technical and developmental point of view, PlayStation Move is very cool piece of kit. As a motion controller, its overall combination of precision, a fixed, low cost level of CPU and memory usage and the 60FPS camera feed makes it easily the most accurate, versatile and flexible interface available on console. There's little doubt that it can outperform the Wii remote and MotionPlus, and while the scope for dance and fitness titles may not be in the same league as Kinect, it can still compete in this space, and it has far fewer technical limitations than Microsoft's sensor.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-case-for-playstation-move-article?page=3

 

[jiggles]

Care to elaborate ?

Well, there's two gyros. One super-cheap InvenSense dual-axis one that does pitch and roll, and one more expensive and slightly more accurate Epson one that does Yaw alone. They both report rotational speed values relative to the Wiimote, and you divide by time to get the angle. Problem is, with Euler angles like this, you need a rotation order to stay accurate. But you're getting all three readings taken simultaneously, so there is no rotation order on the observed values. The readings are taken often enough and the movement so slow (relatively) that your rotation quaternion won't drift off that much, but if you twist the remote a lot while swinging fast, it's going to go way off.

A three-axis gyro shouldn't have that problem, because the pitch, roll and yaw order is determined by the actual component. It mightn't even use Euler angles. It could spit out a rotation matrix, or even a quaternion, right to the PS3 for it's gyro readings, meaning the only drift you'll have to deal with is due to the noise in the sensors (which alone is pretty significant in the gyros in WM+).

 

[poppabk]

I was playing the sword fighting with a friend and it decalibrated all the time. Quite annoying.

As I mentioned earlier, the wiimote seems to detect any significant IR as the sensor bar. There is an option in WSR that allows the motion+ to recalibrate off the sensor bar on the fly when it sees it, however, it can screw up if it sees an alternate source (this can happen a lot in archery where your remote is pointing directly up usually at a light fixture). If you turn this feature off, then you see a steady drift from the gyros. Recalibrating is as easy as pointing at the screen and pressing down, but having to do it manually is annoying.

 

[mrklaw]

Neither is 'absolute'.

Both are relative to the thing hanging on top of your TV, or whatever (be it sensor bar or camera).

If you want either to be more absolute with respect to your TV - like a lightgun - you have to go through a calibration process to figure out the edges of the TV, more or less.

The only difference between Move and the Wiimote here is questions of precision wrt orientation and whether or not Move's precision here is enough to effectvely make no difference in laser pointing applications. That seems to be an open question, although I think there's indications in some of the games - apparently - that Move can be 'good enough' for this when the data is used and treated properly.

In fact, the only difference wrt capability in pointing is, in fact, in Move's favour. That is, it can do angle-independent pointing for things like drawing applications, while the wiimote cannot.

the difference though is that the Wii effectively has two points of reference on top of your TV - the two LEDs in the sensor bar. That allows for triangulation and therefore can be used for absolute pointing. when you're on the system menu, you don't need to calibrate, its very forgiving of where you are sitting etc. Lightgun games do seem to need calibration for ultimate accuracy though. so it seems the wii can use the IR camera only for pointing.

The move seems to need to use the gyros to calculate the angle of the move and therefore where you are pointing. Seems fine for basic relative movement, but I think the jury is still out on ultimate accuracy.

Having said that, Nintendo seem to be using the same approach (gyros, not IR) for pointing in the upcoming Zelda, so maybe there is some benefit to that approach?

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

Neither is 'absolute'.

Both are relative to the thing hanging on top of your TV, or whatever (be it sensor bar or camera).

If you want either to be more absolute with respect to your TV - like a lightgun - you have to go through a calibration process to figure out the edges of the TV, more or less.

The only difference between Move and the Wiimote here is questions of precision wrt orientation and whether or not Move's precision here is enough to effectvely make no difference in laser pointing applications. That seems to be an open question, although I think there's indications in some of the games - apparently - that Move can be 'good enough' for this when the data is used and treated properly.

In fact, the only difference wrt capability in pointing is, in fact, in Move's favour. That is, it can do angle-independent pointing for things like drawing applications, while the wiimote cannot.

True, but both devices can be calibrated to the TV's size (for the Wii's 1-1 pointing and the move's 1-1 positioning) Also the absolute positioning pointing (as used in Beat Sketcher) is indeed better for drawing than the Wii's method of pointing.

However, it also must be asked whether or not the 1-1 positioning is even necessary for most games. While it does allow for greater freedom of movement, there's a decent argument to be made that 1-1 orientation is good enough in most cases, due to how the human wrist bends when making typical motions (for instance, when you move a controller over and behind your head, your wrist bends backwards - unless you're purposely trying to fool the game. This can easily be tracked with 1-1 orientation alone)

 

[poppabk]

True, but both devices can be calibrated to the TV's size (for the Wii's 1-1 pointing and the move's 1-1 positioning) Also the absolute positioning pointing (as used in Beat Sketcher) is indeed better for drawing than the Wii's method of pointing.

However, it also must be asked whether or not the 1-1 positioning is even necessary for most games. While it does allow for greater freedom of movement, there's a decent argument to be made that 1-1 orientation is good enough.

My main question remains whether the pointer for Move will always point to the same point on the TV screen day after day if you sit in the same position and hold it in the same orientation. If you play a game like the Wii Play shooting game on someone else's console or sit in a different position or after moving the sensor bar - then all your muscle memory is lost. I would go from scores in the 600-700's to scores in the 3-400's, because I would have to consciously aim rather than instinctively aim.

 

[Ashes]

True, but both devices can be calibrated to the TV's size (for the Wii's 1-1 pointing and the move's 1-1 positioning) Also the absolute positioning pointing (as used in Beat Sketcher) is indeed better for drawing than the Wii's method of pointing.

However, it also must be asked whether or not the 1-1 positioning is even necessary for most games. While it does allow for greater freedom of movement, there's a decent argument to be made that 1-1 orientation is good enough in most cases, due to how the human wrist bends when making typical motions (for instance, when you move a controller over and behind your head, your wrist bends backwards - unless you're purposely trying to fool the game. This can easily be tracked with 1-1 orientation alone)

For now perhaps. But I would definitely feel more comofortable, having to point upwards from a resting postion, rather then having to lift my hand within the sensor bar area, or even stand up so that it reads me. The ability to change the angle of the PS eye is pretty useful in this regard.

 

[gofreak]

the difference though is that the Wii effectively has two points of reference on top of your TV - the two LEDs in the sensor bar. That allows for triangulation and therefore can be used for absolute pointing.

So we're semantically clear, what do you mean by 'absolute pointing'? When I think of that, I think of, say, lightgun style pointing where it's mapped directly to the TV. I'm not sure if you mean something else.

As far as I know with pointing in each, the approach is different, but the intended end-result is the same - both ultimately give a x-y position of where the controller is pointing at on a virtual plane around the sensor bar or camera respectively.

The difference is in the process of getting that result. The question more specifically is one of relative precision, moreso wrt orientation - because, as you say, Move relies on its internal sensors for this. If there is any divergence between the two in the quality of the end result, I suspect this is where it would be.

 

[Koren]

in other words, even if Wii Speak was part of the motion controller and a webcam, it would still suck compared to the Eye.

If you talk about the PSEye microphone array, I'm pretty sure that WiiSpeak uses a similar tech (that's quite usual when you want mics with noise-cancelling), but with Nintendo, it's always pretty difficult to learn technical details about their hardware.

Well, there's two gyros. One super-cheap InvenSense dual-axis one that does pitch and roll, and one more expensive and slightly more accurate Epson one that does Yaw alone. They both report rotational speed values relative to the Wiimote, and you divide by time to get the angle. Problem is, with Euler angles like this, you need a rotation order to stay accurate. But you're getting all three readings taken simultaneously, so there is no rotation order on the observed values. The readings are taken often enough and the movement so slow (relatively) that your rotation quaternion won't drift off that much, but if you twist the remote a lot while swinging fast, it's going to go way off.

A three-axis gyro shouldn't have that problem, because the pitch, roll and yaw order is determined by the actual component. It mightn't even use Euler angles. It could spit out a rotation matrix, or even a quaternion, right to the PS3 for it's gyro readings, meaning the only drift you'll have to deal with is due to the noise in the sensors (which alone is pretty significant in the gyros in WM+).

Thanks for the clarification... I understand the point, and though I'm not convinced yet, I'll definitively think about it. Mostly because I still haven't found details on Move gyro characteristics (while I know that accelerometers are from Kionix and magnetometer from AKM). I'll try to get one to make my own tests, anyway, as I did with wiimote tech.

Any way, as far as I know, MEMS gyroscopes gives you instantaneous values, not real rotation angle changes, integrated between two data points. In this case, what happen between two clock ticks have little influence (beside the mechanical low-pass filtering of the inners of the MEMS). Should they behave differently, I would agree with you easier. I'll check this as soon as I can. Against, thanks, that's an interesting point.

 

[A.CHAP]

The difference is in the process of getting that result. The question more specifically is one of relative precision, moreso wrt orientation - because, as you say, Move relies on its internal sensors for this. If there is any divergence between the two in the quality of the end result, I suspect this is where it would be.

The burning question for me is; does the Moves aproach to pointing mean that it drifts over time?

 

[gofreak]

However, it also must be asked whether or not the 1-1 positioning is even necessary for most games. While it does allow for greater freedom of movement, there's a decent argument to be made that 1-1 orientation is good enough in most cases, due to how the human wrist bends when making typical motions (for instance, when you move a controller over and behind your head, your wrist bends backwards - unless you're purposely trying to fool the game. This can easily be tracked with 1-1 orientation alone)

There's many many situations in which your wrist would bend backwards that wouldn't relate to a movement of your hand over and behind your head.

It's a big assumption to map that orientation change to one such large motion.

And this is precisely the kind problems you run into if you were to rely only on orientation, if you try to infer too much by looking at orientation primarily or alone.

For sure you can design a game around orientation changes only. You could design a game around positional changes only. If you have both you have the full set, though, and you can start doing generalised motion capture. Which will give more realistic, natural results. And we already have good real-world comparisons of that.

The burning question for me is; does the Moves aproach to pointing mean that it drifts over time?

There are some games on Move that exhibit pointer drift particularly under more extreme motion. Unsatisfactorily from the point of view of coming to a conclusion, however, there are also pointer-y games that don't exhibit the same problem. So...

 

[Sipowicz]

wait, so you have to recalbrating the sony move?

i thought the whole fucking point of is was that it doesn't require calibration

 

[Koren]

So we're semantically clear, what do you mean by 'absolute pointing'?

I'd say that Wiimote is absolute with respect to the sensor bar, not the TV. Of course, to transform from the sensor bar space to the TV set space, you need a calibration (scale depending on the TV size, I think the default on Wii is around 25", and relative origin), which should be quite easy assuming the bar is in the TV plane. (There's a factor that depend on the vertical angle of the wiimote, but assuming that you're always around the same height from the ground, and since it's a second order term, that's not a big problem)

That calibration done, the wiimote won't ever drift, and the computation is direct (read the position of the centers of the two blobs, multiply by a simple calibration matrix, get the result in the TV space). The only threats is when you have other IR sources around.

It's a bit more difficult with Move. First, the reference directions can change a bit (magnetometer limit the horizontal drift, accelerometer the vertical drift, but they can't give precise references, or you wouldn't even need a gyroscope to begin with). Besides, gyroscopes will give you a direction, and if you want to get the intersection with the TV plane, you'll also need 3D position of the ball (or going left 1m would result in no change for the position pointed on screen). Nothing impossible, but that's less immediate, and thus can suffer more from imprecision. They already have pretty good result, though, and that'll probably improve over time...

 

[Lonely1]

wait, so you have to recalbrating the sony move?

i thought the whole fucking point of is was that it doesn't require calibration

Yes, it still need recalibration.

 

[Sipowicz]

Yes, it still need recalibration.

how though? i thought the camera can see the ball all the time

if that's the case it really is just a wii motion + with a webcam

 

[gofreak]

wait, so you have to recalbrating the sony move?

i thought the whole fucking point of is was that it doesn't require calibration

I'm not sure where you got that from.

The chief point of Move is to provide a full set of tracking data.

There are three types of calibration on Move, depending on what a game wants to do.

1) The 'point at the camera' calibration, which happens when a game boots up. This is when the camera sets its lighting sensitivity and the sphere picks a colour to stand out. The controller may also be determining a starting orientation relative to the camera.

This is the common calibration in Move games.

2) Pointer calibration for more direct mapping of the pointer - the same kind of 'shoot the targets at the edge of the screen type stuff you have on Wii.

3) Physical calibration with relation to your body - things like wingspan measurements so it knows the proportions of the player to better map motions. Relevant in sports games, like SC, and I guess calibration like this is done in more exacting Wii games too (?)

I'd say that Wiimote is absolute with respect to the sensor bar, not the TV. Of course, to transform from the sensor bar space to the TV set space, you need a calibration (scale depending on the TV size, I think the default on Wii is around 25", and relative origin), which should be quite easy assuming the bar is in the TV plane. (There's a factor that depend on the vertical angle of the wiimote, but assuming that you're always around the same height from the ground, and since it's a second order term, that's not a big problem)

That calibration done, the wiimote won't ever drift, and the computation is direct (read the position of the centers of the two blobs, multiply by a simple calibration matrix, get the result in the TV space). The only threats is when you have other IR sources around.

It's a bit more difficult with Move. First, the reference directions can change a bit (magnetometer limit the horizontal drift, accelerometer the vertical drift, but they can't give precise references, or you wouldn't even need a gyroscope to begin with). Besides, gyroscopes will give you a direction, and if you want to get the intersection with the TV plane, you'll also need 3D position of the ball (or going left 1m would result in no change for the position pointed on screen). Nothing impossible, but that's less immediate, and thus can suffer more from imprecision. They already have pretty good result, though, and that'll probably improve over time...

I think we're on the same page. As I said, in terms of the end result I think it comes down to questions of orientation calculation, precision differences therein. But I was just wondering if people had a different end-result in mind than me when talking about 'absolute pointing'.

 

[jiggles]

Thanks for the clarification... I understand the point, and though I'm not convinced yet, I'll definitively think about it. Mostly because I still haven't found details on Move gyro characteristics (while I know that accelerometers are from Kionix and magnetometer from AKM). I'll try to get one to make my own tests, anyway, as I did with wiimote tech.

Any way, as far as I know, MEMS gyroscopes gives you instantaneous values, not real rotation angle changes, integrated between two data points. In this case, what happen between two clock ticks have little influence (beside the mechanical low-pass filtering of the inners of the MEMS). Should they behave differently, I would agree with you easier. I'll check this as soon as I can. Against, thanks, that's an interesting point.

Well, I'm only about 85% sure I'm right here. I worked for a year on implementing a bullet-proof orientation tracking solution with WiiMotionPlus (and just one IR LED) as my university thesis (to use in VR systems for headtracking). This was the only bit of the whole thing I was remotely fuzzy on. :lol

It's hard to think about how something affects a rotation quaternion, because it's effectively tracking movement across the surface of a 4D sphere, which melts my fucking brain. I won a prize for the project, mind, so if I did make a false assumption, it was too difficult for even the lecturer and board of examiners to catch. :lol

 

[poppabk]

how though? i thought the camera can see the ball all the time

if that's the case it really is just a wii motion + with a webcam

The ball gives it no (or very limited) information about rotation. Knowing where the ball doesn't help tell you where the move is pointed. There was a rumor that it would use occlusion and a slightly distorted shape of the ball to gain some information, although even if this is used it is only going to allow for gross correction.