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Wiimote/Motion Plus vs. PlayStation Move Comparison Thread
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
cakefoo said:
Umm yes. if it were truly 1:1, the data would be accurate enough so that no calibration is required. unfortunately for us, technology isn't quite there yet (and it may never get to that point), but we can approximate it by constantly calibrating our sensors like the Move. so to answer your question, YES, even the almighty Move is only an APPROXIMATION. which is why it is pseudo 1:1. And while the Wii remote does drift if you decide to track it for more than one gesture, it is able to approximate that gesture fairly accurately on screen. That's enough for pseudo 1:1 motion tracking. Sure, it's not on the same level as the Move, but all I'm saying is that neither implementation is true 1:1 since approximations are being made.
now, back to the good stuff. Imagine a motion controller where they combined the move with the remote. Add some infrared lights to the eyetoy, and add an infrared camera to the Move controller. You'd get the best of both worlds, accurate pointing, and accurate tracking.
Graphics Horse
Member
poppabk said:
I never disputed that, they are two cameras for two different purposes.
Oh I see, so maintaining positional accuracy down to the millimeter isn't enough for true 1:1. Semantics much?defferoo said:
If someone could detect sensor drift occurring within a 60th of a second, then I congratulate them.
That's just ridiculous how you're trying to blur the gulf of difference between how much drift is accumulated between recalibrations in the Wiimote compared to the Move by classifying them both as "pseudo 1:1" with no distinction. Going a 60th of a second between calibrations is nothing. Going 15-30 seconds on the Wiimote with several large, high-speed swings contained within, that position is going to float into the stratosphere, rendering its positional data completely useless for gauging where on XYZ you are, and has to be relegated to a more general kind of 3D gesture recognition scheme-- or they can go the WSR route and use orientation-based trickery to make it look like it's following your 3D movements when in reality it's just following the angle of the remote.
babyghost853
Member
Since my video was largely ignored, only to be followed by large walls of text by people claiming both are about the same, I will restate my challenge, I gave physical proof of how the move handles. For those of you still saying there about the same please post a video replicating what I did using the wii motion plus, I sure most of you have a wii.
Here is my vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhFEEwTAYH8
Here is my vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhFEEwTAYH8
redbarchetta
Banned
jigglywiggly said:
I talked to Anton at GDC and he made clear that the magnetic sensor is simply used as a last ditch effort to try and locate the controller if all else fails. In fact, the demos at the show floor (including Sports Champion and EyePet) didn't use it at all. So no, it would not need a "magnetic sensor" to match the Move.
Seriously, you remind me of the "I'm an expert" guy. :lolUntoldDreams said:
The effective resolution of the Wiimote IR camera is 1024x768. With a camera of this resolution, even slight positional changes will result in non-identical pictures.
And FYI, Wiibrew is quite credible.
This.poppabk said:
I realized this and have edited my post. For convenience, I'll copy the edit here as well:cakefoo said:
Jokeropia said:
redbarchetta
Banned
Jax said:
Yeah, that'd be pretty nuts, right? Move makes it so easy relatively.
Move Controller + EyeToy + Navigation/SixAxis controller/2nd Move Controller
Besides, while we're playing with hypotheticals, assuming Nintendo did release a webcam, it's likely they would consolidate microphone technology inside of it, replacing the need for WiiSpeak (much as you don't need an Xbox Vision Camera to play Kinnect).
flyinpiranha
Member
distrbnce said:
This is what I want to see. I owned a Wii for a year and a half and nothing even came close to the precision that Sports Champions has given me.
BUT, I also never played with WiiMotion+ so if they have improved it by a large margin, then what games should I be comparing it to?
redbarchetta
Banned
mrklaw said:
Nintendo has confirmed the game also uses IR pointing, it just wasn't active in the playable demo. (I'm pretty certain IR interference is what caused their press conference troubles).
UntoldDreams
Member
poppabk said:
There is a very good reason why there aren't really any good accurate 1:1 motion games on the Wii particularly in the Z plane and its not just because Devs were afraid the wiimote would not be pointing at the TV.
If you can't rationalize this statement beyond "Devs are not trying" I'm pretty sure its not worth discussing. By this logic Zindagi games are god-like beings able to do what all the other devs failed at.
UntoldDreams
Member
Jokeropia said:
...
I was going to walk away but I have to ask this question to you then.
Zindagi games is hardly a super powerful dev studio. Yet they pulled this off by magic then?
And all this time all those other devs for the Wii were just lazy?
So we can expect Wii Sports Champions soon then?
flyinpiranha
Member
UntoldDreams said:
Don't feel bad. I'm still at a loss why people are so defensive. I never got the condescending attitude as I was reading in fact it was nice to see a level headed response to a lot of the tech talk.
But all the numbers and math mean shit to me personally (although it is interesting). I've yet to see/play anything on the Wii that even remotely comes close to what I was seeing/playing in Table Tennis in SC. Nothing.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
What are you talking about? What is the reason that there are very few games that use the z-plane on the wiimote? I believe it is because having a camera on the end of the remote makes it highly unsuitable for these type of games, you believe it is....?UntoldDreams said:
Flachmatuch
Member
I bought Move and RE5 and I'm a bit disappointed. Maybe it's me, or whatever, but pointing seemed to lag quite a bit, it was nowhere near as fast as in RE4:Wii, even on the fastest settings (both in game and in the XMB). I played the first bigger firefight a few times (like 15 or so), and it didn't play as good as 4. Maybe it's because I know that game too well though, but I was having fun with that game at the first shot. Although maybe it's comparing the wrong games.
Graphics Horse
Member
Branduil said:
And LED compatible camera, with 4 LED lights surrounding each wiimote camera
This is unrelated to what I'm arguing. Actually, these two posts from poppabk sufficiently puts forth what I want said.UntoldDreams said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23461724&postcount=444
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23461849&postcount=447
UntoldDreams
Member
poppabk said:
Which is why this discussion is stuck at an impasse.
I would think... that if error correcting highly accurate 1:1 motion was possible with the Wii (even though it required pointing at the sensor bar) that there are quite a lot of game mechanics which could make use of this fact.
The fact that you could reach into the TV and shake things around left right up down with 1:1 position would STILL be quite desirable. You could even slash pointing away from the tv temporarily using accelerometers... as long as the Wii could recalibrate once the sensor bar came into view.
This is not reality. And your distinction doesn't make sense beyond "Developers just don't want it". That line of reasoning is what you are saying sir and if you step back a second you might rethink it.
redbarchetta said:
I wasn't aware of how good or bad the mag sensor is, I was just assuming it was the same component in the SIXAXIS, and used to correct any drift in the orientation tracking by providing a rough, but absolutely consistent yaw reading. I'm not sure how a magnetic sensor is supposed to be used to "locate" a controller in 3D space, though.
Besides, the post I was replying to was basically looking to add all the Move components to the Wii's system. That's the only reason I mentioned the thing in the first place.
Flachmatuch
Member
Lonely1 said:
Can they play mixed controller matches in MAG? I guess we'd see how effective it compared to DS3 at least. Anyway, next game for me will be Killzone 3 I guess, or whatever worthwhile singleplayer shooter comes out before.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
There is very little you could actually do. Remember no-one has bothered to make any games for motion+ at all, so we are talking about the bare capabilities of the wiimote. As soon as you lost sight of the sensor bar the remote has no idea where it is, and once it catches sight of the camera, it has no idea if that is the camera, and so you inevitably introduce seconds of lag into the reorientation, and mass confusion when the camera is not in view.UntoldDreams said:
Boom blox uses the positional data to allow something similar to what you are describing, but it is literally one of the only game ideas that actually works. Remember, if you rotate the remote greater than 30 degrees it loses sight of the camera, the operating range is way too low for use in anything that anyone will enjoy in an actual game.
I'm not saying that developers just don't want it, I am saying it would be a process so fraught with technical difficulties that it is practically impossible and you would be better off saving the thousands of man hours and bundling a low res camera and an LED light with your game.
Flachmatuch
Member
UntoldDreams said:
I'm not really sure about this tbh, wouldn't the range of motion be really small? Wii pointers in games are always off screen very quickly, and sometimes it's very clear that they don't know where my cursor is. I'm not arguing that the Wii can actually do this, but I think the movement range allowed by your arm means it's not very natural to move the wiimote while it's pointing at around the same point (Move has the funniest calibration test though).
Edit: Hehe, I'm stupid, painting games would be a good example for such a game.
Graphics Horse
Member
Jokeropia said:
Not going to read the whole patent now but bear in mind the Wiimote only returns a maximum of 8 bit intensity for each light, plus 7 bit bounding box coordinates for each light.
It should be possible to tell what side of the room you're on but it doesn't sound enough to be super accurate, I could be wrong.
Also as Wii is designed to cope with different sensitivity settings, it might be something that would work well enough in perfect conditions, but not good enough with reduced sensitivity.
redbarchetta
Banned
jling84 said:
You're likely getting light interference, or one of your components is broken. I experienced a similar issue which was due to a stray light source bouncing off the TV, confusing the Wii Remote. In the correct setting, the pointer should not be "jittery" at all (or if it is, it's a game issue--the best way to check is to see what the cursor does on the in-game "Home" menu, which is consistent across all Wii software.)
As for lag, that's either a game issue (some, such as Twilight Princess, use heavy 'smoothing' algorithms, which induce lag), or a TV issue (I'm guessing you're running it on a LCD or Plasma?). The camera's refresh rate matches that of the fps of even the fastest games, providing a response that should be near instantaneous (assuming the game isn't using the aforementioned algorithms).
You really should check out the "Sensor Bar" options screen of the Wii. There you can determine if there are stray light sources and either work to get rid of them, or adjust the sensitivity of the Wii Remote's camera so that it no longer "sees" them.
The only two major qualms I have with Move which the Wii beats it hands down is calibration and latency. Every time I play Move I have to be fully determined and committed to the task meaning:
A) Standing up is a MUST for calibration and practically a must for play.
Not so with the M+ on either accounts
B) Having to be directly in front of the camera at all times and at least 5-6 ft away. The game says 3ft but my experience says at least 5.
Again not so with the M+ since the camera is in the wiimote you can be anywhere you want at any angle as long as you have a line of sight to the sensor bar who's radius is pretty substantial. I've been as close as 2 feet away from the sensor bar sitting down on the very far left side with absolutely no issues.
C) Having to do a 2 step hand and arm position process for calibration while meeting the above two requirements (standing directly in front of the camera at least 5ft away) before the start of every game.
With M+ you place the wiimote face down on a flat surface for 3 seconds. That's it. Not only is it much easier than move but recalibration is not required as often either.
I remember all of the criticizing of M+'s need for calibration in the past but in retrospect it is extremely easy and practical compared to what is required for Move. That and you can play Wii games in a much smaller environment with less restriction on where and how to play which brings me to why I say you have to be determined and "committed to the task" to play move.
Latency has also been an issue with Move for me. I don't know if it's because of the technology and how it works or if it's the amount of graphics the PS3 has to push for move games. Whatever it is there is a noticeable difference in latency between Move and M+ games.
Latency with motion based games is like its Achilles Heel and must be kept to an absolute minimal. I would rather my Move games have much more simplistic graphics if it means I can play those same games with little to no noticeable latency. Sony needs to address this issue in their next batch of Move games because latency in more traditional games like an FPS is just not acceptable.
As for which is better Move or M+? I think it's completely subjective because they both have their flaws and strengths and depending on what is most important to the user some will prefer M+ and some will prefer Move. I prefer Move now mainly because it is new and I am still having a lot of fun with it. Having said that I can honestly say that I have not seen anything yet that couldn't be done with the M+ in the hands of an experienced developer with a good budget.
A) Standing up is a MUST for calibration and practically a must for play.
Not so with the M+ on either accounts
B) Having to be directly in front of the camera at all times and at least 5-6 ft away. The game says 3ft but my experience says at least 5.
Again not so with the M+ since the camera is in the wiimote you can be anywhere you want at any angle as long as you have a line of sight to the sensor bar who's radius is pretty substantial. I've been as close as 2 feet away from the sensor bar sitting down on the very far left side with absolutely no issues.
C) Having to do a 2 step hand and arm position process for calibration while meeting the above two requirements (standing directly in front of the camera at least 5ft away) before the start of every game.
With M+ you place the wiimote face down on a flat surface for 3 seconds. That's it. Not only is it much easier than move but recalibration is not required as often either.
I remember all of the criticizing of M+'s need for calibration in the past but in retrospect it is extremely easy and practical compared to what is required for Move. That and you can play Wii games in a much smaller environment with less restriction on where and how to play which brings me to why I say you have to be determined and "committed to the task" to play move.
Latency has also been an issue with Move for me. I don't know if it's because of the technology and how it works or if it's the amount of graphics the PS3 has to push for move games. Whatever it is there is a noticeable difference in latency between Move and M+ games.
Latency with motion based games is like its Achilles Heel and must be kept to an absolute minimal. I would rather my Move games have much more simplistic graphics if it means I can play those same games with little to no noticeable latency. Sony needs to address this issue in their next batch of Move games because latency in more traditional games like an FPS is just not acceptable.
As for which is better Move or M+? I think it's completely subjective because they both have their flaws and strengths and depending on what is most important to the user some will prefer M+ and some will prefer Move. I prefer Move now mainly because it is new and I am still having a lot of fun with it. Having said that I can honestly say that I have not seen anything yet that couldn't be done with the M+ in the hands of an experienced developer with a good budget.
I'm a bit surprised that so late after the Wii launch people still bear jittery pointers without trying to see in the manual if you can adjust anything. That's NOT normal.
(Edit : no offence intended here, I'm the first to not read the manuals, but jittery pointers is really bad, and I couldn't stand it for long in some games... it should be said more often that it's a problem that can be corrected)
As for latency, the TV is indeed sometimes the culprit, many people don't notice the lag in usual situations, but it become more obvious with quick pointer motions. Besides slow low-pass algorithm, it shouldn't be a problem, indeed.
(Edit : no offence intended here, I'm the first to not read the manuals, but jittery pointers is really bad, and I couldn't stand it for long in some games... it should be said more often that it's a problem that can be corrected)
As for latency, the TV is indeed sometimes the culprit, many people don't notice the lag in usual situations, but it become more obvious with quick pointer motions. Besides slow low-pass algorithm, it shouldn't be a problem, indeed.
I think you should clarify Shaheed, that right now you're really only talking about SC when you talk about the standing up and back requirement, and that particular calibration process. Not Move in general.
Every other game I've played (well..except the Racquet Sports demo I guess) is perfectly fine at close quarters, sitting.
Every other game I've played (well..except the Racquet Sports demo I guess) is perfectly fine at close quarters, sitting.
redbarchetta
Banned
gofreak said:
I'm not Shaheed79, but I think I see where he's coming from. It most cases, you'll have to physically adjust the camera if you want to go from a standing up to sitting down position--minor, but a nuisance nonetheless.
But that aside, the Move is basically limited to two people at a time max, in order for it to offer the experience it purports. Sure, it can technically support more people, but then it's offering a WM+ level of experience, sans pointer support (since the controller needs to be in view of the camera--unless you have a Friends style couch that can fit four people comfortable directly in front of the camera--something I doubt is really feasible).
redbarchetta said:
You're saying there are two possible experiences; the Move's 1:1 pitch line, and the Pointer-based stuff Wii can do.
Sure, it sucks that for the 1:1 experience you're limited to 2 players, but 2 players is infinitely better than it not existing at all... You're quite the cynic.
How does it do that anyway? Lumens?Jokeropia said:
In this scenario moving the remote 27 inches left/right X results in an 8 inch change in distance from one IR light. That means that in this scenario the X positioning will have a margin of error more than 3x greater than that of the distance measurement. So we would need to know the finest the Wiimote can gauge the IR light distance down to, so we can therefore roughly figure out X position accuracy.
I'll begin to speculate: say the Wiimote can detect a change in IR light distance down to 3 inches. That would mean it can only calibrate the X positioning by a 9 inch spread. Compare that to the Move, which (not speculation) tracks within a millimeter on X and Y, and 1-2 centimeters on Z.
But that's a game that has you pointing at the screen at all times anyway, so it doesn't have to risk losing itself from drift like if the accelerometers were made to have to fend for themselves in table tennis where your paddle isn't pointing at the sensor bar as often.Lonely1 said:
redbarchetta said:
That's true, but it's a different point. I just thought it should be clear for the benefit of people who haven't played with move that the stuff he was talking about is really all quite specific to certain games (or a certain game i.e. SC) and not the general case.
The so called "1:1" motion controls, are greatly overrated, and would even be bad for many games. Compare with mouse and other absolute interfaces like steering wheels.
You generally want the ratio of motion to be higher than what you input. And if possible, you want to sit in a comfortable position the suits you, and not necessarily the exact direction of the screen.
The Wiimote with Motion plus allows that a bit better than Move.
Move will also never have the precision of the the Wiii pointer, because all it has to judge movement by, is a tiny subset of the camera view frustum (which is what you are using if you are doing small detail moves) and the interpolation allowed with the accelerometer and gyro. That can never be as good as the full view frustum of the Wiimote, where the real to onscreen movement ration is actually increased with distance (parallax effect), where it is opposite with Move.
The ultimate setup of this tech (if you don't want to go all out on VR motion feedback mechanical setups) would probably be a combo of the two, pared with ultrasound for calibration once in a while (every second maybe (would save battery)). That is a camera at both ends.
You generally want the ratio of motion to be higher than what you input. And if possible, you want to sit in a comfortable position the suits you, and not necessarily the exact direction of the screen.
The Wiimote with Motion plus allows that a bit better than Move.
Move will also never have the precision of the the Wiii pointer, because all it has to judge movement by, is a tiny subset of the camera view frustum (which is what you are using if you are doing small detail moves) and the interpolation allowed with the accelerometer and gyro. That can never be as good as the full view frustum of the Wiimote, where the real to onscreen movement ration is actually increased with distance (parallax effect), where it is opposite with Move.
The ultimate setup of this tech (if you don't want to go all out on VR motion feedback mechanical setups) would probably be a combo of the two, pared with ultrasound for calibration once in a while (every second maybe (would save battery)). That is a camera at both ends.
redbarchetta
Banned
distrbnce said:
Hardly. I've expressed my like for Move quite a bit. I'm just a realist--Move is great, but has issues, and isn't categorically superior to the Wii as many tout.
Well I've only played SC and I took my experience with SC as what to expect from all Move games and I guess that isn't a smart thing to do.gofreak said:
Again I can only speak on what I have played and every time I tried to be close to the camera in SC I was not able to properly calibrate. I took that to mean that a certain distance from the camera is required for proper calibration. Maybe it is different for other games I do not know.
As I stated in the SC OT my favorite game on SC is Bocce by far and it controls a lot like a bowling game with a focus on lobbing the ball. It is the one game I keep coming back to several times a day and it is a game that I see M+ having no problem reproducing control wise. I must admit that the wonderful graphics and near perfect physics are a big part of the reason for my enjoyment of that particular game.
The camera allows the Move position to be tracked in XY within a millimeter, and 1-2 centimeters in Z. Remember that the Wiimote camera is a much lower resolution than the PS Eye, and that the Eye performs subpixel tracking to a degree of about 10:1. For orientation, it's reliant on the internals. Don't know if you knew that or not. The camera is just there for the optional task of providing the positional data needed to project a virtual beam from the remote to the tv so that it's consistent even if you change seats/stances.poppabk said:
I'm no expert on this, but just about camera resolution, one could get the impression from patent's sony's filed that positioning the sphere is as much relying on colour resolution as spatial x/y resolution. Some of the techniques in there calculate the center of the sphere using intensity/colour fall-off models. Very slight movements of the controller may not register easy-to-detect differences in the pixel coverage of the sphere, but due to the very high colour resolution of the camera, they may be easier to detect via changes to the intensity/colour values of those pixels. Of course, I'm sure they're also mashing in data from the internal sensors when it comes to tiny movement changes too.
flyinpiranha
Member
MYE said:
Read all my posts you want. I had "new toy fever" when I had the Wii and when playing Wii Sports I thought it was cool but it nowhere met my expectations of what I thought the things was going to do. I'm not even a super Move advocate. I like the thing, it's a blast and beats anything (tech-wise) I ever played on Wii so I'm just making a comparison with 2 like games and I have mentioned numerous times I haven't tried WiiMotion+.
I can't get "New Tech Fever" off of seeing my paddle move EXACTLY how I'm moving it in real life reflect in the game. That's just what I'm seeing. I'm not exaggerating that if that's what you are implying.
And honestly, you still didn't answer the question, you just assumed some stupid bullshit. Tell me a game, say "Wii Sports Resort" has 1:1 where you can move and rotate your hand and it reflects in game too and I would check it out on youtube or something (sold my Wii).
Stop being so defensive and realize that MANY of the people that are playing this have owned/played/still own a Wii and the comparison is legit. I'm sorry it doesn't please you somehow but saying it's just "new tech fever" would be more of an indicator of how I like the game, or how cool I think it 'feels' ... you cannot deny the 1:1 movement when it comes to playing Table Tennis. I was simply amazed.
And now, like others, who probably don't or haven't played a Wii since WiiMotion+ came out are curious if this is really better because right now, with my experience ... hell yeah it is. Nothing I played on the Wii even came close.
Mice are relative, actually. Now a tablet or touchsreen is absolute.Squeak said:
Running around a tennis court? Sure. But in table tennis or swordfighting? No. Any downscaling of the controls would negatively upscale your mistakes, just like upping the speed of your mouse magnifies your jitters.
No. The Move can map an imaginary laser to the TV based on the orb position in 3D space. And if you're sitting outside the Eye's field of view, that's fine too-- just remember to point the Eye at you. But you shouldn't have that problem unless you like to play videogames from an extremely sub-optimal viewing angle.
Man, there sure is a humongous misconception about how Move points. It uses gyros and a magnetometer, people. That speculation was cleared up a year ago.
Actually the further away from the Wii, the range of movement needed to go from one side of the screen to the other scales down to simulate laser pointing. Meaning that it's using less of the camera's field of 1024x??? video feed, and therefore is getting less and less accurate.
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