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WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis

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A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
I'm actually curious what's there to get about the GPU now?

If the console was alot more powerful than PS3/360, we'd probably see more developer interest.

It's kinda hard to get excited about what's likely built on the 45nm process and uses very little watts. It's capable of some better tricks but in raw power, it's not doing much within that envelope. And that's what probably leaves developers disappointed or not caring.

If people want to keep digging then more power to them I suppose. But I think Nintendo's intentions for this thing are quite clear.

Well, we're still yet to see what the tessellator is capable of, for example. Over time there will probably be a few more leaks or in depth comments by developers, and a ground up title for the system by a developer like Retro would be interesting to see as well. Obviously no-one should expect anything mindblowing, but it's intriguing to me at least because in some ways I know less of what to expect than I do with PS4/Durango, because we've either already seen flagship titles for those systems or have examples to draw from on PC. Nintendo on the other hand will have managed to have a console available for a year without any 1st/2nd party heavy hitters on the shelves.

But you would need a gargantuan level of equivocating to say that it doesn't imply that the Wii U isn't better than the 360/PS3.

After all, they didn't say that quote about any other system.

The improved fog, lighting etc... are available on the PS3/360, but only in the DLC.
 

History

Neo Member
That's fox news level of selective reading. That quote does not imply these enhancements were only made possible because of the WiiU hardware, it simply states that the WiiU is powerful enough to implement these improvements. I doesn't in any way imply that these improvements would be impossible to implement on PC, 360 or PS3..

But you would need a gargantuan level of equivocating to say that it doesn't imply that the Wii U isn't better than the 360/PS3.

After all, they didn't say that quote about any other system.
 

bobeth

Member
But you would need a gargantuan level of equivocating to say that it doesn't imply that the Wii U isn't better than the 360/PS3.

After all, they didn't say that quote about any other system.

The developer themselves have a hard time dancing around the issue:

I asked Pedneault if the game had seen any improvements thanks to the Wii U's hardware. New controls were neat, but did the game actually run any better? Pedneault was cagey about details and wouldn't get into specifics, but said that the Wii U hardware allowed the team to feature a new lighting system, improved fog, improved shadows, and antialiasing.

“Right now, this is the best-looking Deus Ex,” Pedneault said. “It's even sharper than the PC version.” While the game does look noticeably nicer than it did on 360 and PS3, I couldn't compare it to a high-end PC, and when I pressed Pendeault to be specific about performance differences, he would only say that the team has worked on adjusting the game's engine, and that the Wii U hardware “helped” with that task.
 
Thanks. This is defnitely helpful.

I'm almost certain that T2 is "Northbridge", but that would be an abnormal place for it. Then there is still T1 which look noticeably different but mostly the same. It would have no need for 2 of them would it, unless T1 is something different.

I'm also going with E for the "Graphics Memory Controller" with 95% certainty. If you turn it left 90 degrees, it matches nearly perfectly with the Brazos pic on the left.

F is Latte's "Video Engine".

W matches the PCI-express controller, but we know that the Wii U has no PCI-express. I don't know what could be in Latte.

At this point I'm willing to bet Latte is based heavily on Brazos which means that it at least has some HD 6XXX tech in it. It was released in 2011, just in line with the Wii U announcement, and there was also that big rumor about the Wii U having an AMD embedded GPU in the 6000 series.



Also, there undeniably a lot of duplicate components in Latte. Cayman features similar duplicate components. Its also HD 6XXX. There are 5 duplicate components in Latte. Coindicently, there are 5 duplicate components in Cayman http://images.anandtech.com/doci/4061/Cayman block diagram.png

I found a block diagram for Llano, though Latte honestly looks a lot more like Brazos at this point.



I think this just might be a breakthrough in the GPU analysis.

Thraktor made a very good annotation of Latte. T1 and T2 are the same. T2 isn't a rectangle like T1 causing the SRAM layout to change.

E's location is away from the DDR3 I/O so it can't be the GMC.

W matches the block under the PCI controller in Brazos. I already labeled it on both Brazos and Llano.

And with some of the rest you're saying what I already mentioned. :)

I'm actually curious what's there to get about the GPU now?

If the console was alot more powerful than PS3/360, we'd probably see more developer interest.

It's kinda hard to get excited about what's likely built on the 45nm process and uses very little watts. It's capable of some better tricks but in raw power, it's not doing much within that envelope. And that's what probably leaves developers disappointed or not caring.

If people want to keep digging then more power to them I suppose. But I think Nintendo's intentions for this thing are quite clear.

What happened Jordan? Your posts are the exact opposite of what I remember. You kinda sound like a scorned lover. :p
 

The_Lump

Banned
Pedneault was cagey about details and wouldn't get into specifics, but said that the Wii U hardware allowed the team....

Seems pretty definitive. Doesn't matter what quote they put afterwards. There's no inclination that the subsequent quote relates directly to the previous sentence.

He might just be talking about more RAM or whatever though, who knows.


Edit: And I'm not saying this is a definitive statement about WiiUs power; it's not and we shouldn't read too much into it either way. But if you're going to dissect the article/quote then you can't ignore that part.
 

pulsemyne

Member
When looking at the brazos die, if you take out the position of the CPU and entend the memory sections then it fits very well with the layout of Latte. Certain sections of the chip do look similar so this does hint at it being a basis for Latte. It seems like its a very mixed design, something from one chip and some things from another. The probably line of thinking was
"We have a certain power envelop to stick too so lets take what works from one part and marry it with another part"
 

krizzx

Junior Member
Thraktor made a very good annotation of Latte. T1 and T2 are the same. T2 isn't a rectangle like T1 causing the SRAM layout to change.

E's location is away from the DDR3 I/O so it can't be the GMC.

W matches the block under the PCI controller in Brazos. I already labeled it on both Brazos and Llano.

And with some of the rest you're saying what I already mentioned. :)



What happened Jordan? Your posts are the exact opposite of what I remember. You kinda sound like a scorned lover. :p

Ah, now I see where you are coming from. It's all adding up.

Alright. That is understandable about T2. T1.

Though, why must the GMC be near the DDR3 I/O as opposed to the GP I/O? I always figured all of the graphical components would be near the GP I/O.

When looking at the brazos die, if you take out the position of the CPU and entend the memory sections then it fits very well with the layout of Latte. Certain sections of the chip do look similar so this does hint at it being a basis for Latte. It seems like its a very mixed design, something from one chip and some things from another. The probably line of thinking was
"We have a certain power envelop to stick too so lets take what works from one part and marry it with another part"
Same thing I thought from the moment I saw it was custom made. It has always been my belief that is used a variety of components from different chips as opposed to being on specially made from scratch chip.

Not only do most of the parts match the later HD 6XXX, but there is also the matter of the embedded rumor and energy consumption with the maxes for Brazos being being min 9 watts and max 18 watts. All of these chips use DDR3 specifically. I've always wondered why Nintendo didn't stick with GDDR3 like they used in the Wii.

The assessment I have made now is that during development, the 2011 dev kits had an R700 in them but only as a placeholder, and I wouldn't doubt that even the initial 768 MB of RAM and 1.5 GB of RAM were true at one time. Then getting close to the end and the finalization of the GPU they went with a custom embedded chip design which was leaked in the months prior to launch.

I base this own some other common knowledge we have. We know that there has been stated to be major changes to the hardware from development to launch and we cans see that Latte does not match up well with any R700 chip. Also, if the chip were just finalized close to the end, it would make sense why the tools and software were so poor at launch.

Well, that's my analysis so far.
 

Schnozberry

Member
I just proposed an architectural change that would work very well with the 160 SU theory: Thread interleaving. Running 320 or 640 concurrent threads on 160 shader units. See this presentation, starting at page 31: http://s08.idav.ucdavis.edu/fatahalian-gpu-architecture.pdf

If that's even necessary with all the embedded memory available. Stalls typically occur during VRAM reads after all, and with ultra low latency local storage, there shouldn't be all that many stalls in the first place compared to traditional GPUs.

Just so I understand, your theory is that the customizations Nintendo would have made are on the front end of the GPU for thread interleaving? Would this explain some of the duplicate blocks on the GPU?
 
The character models in Mario vs Sonic didn't appear to show any visible polygons they all seem well rounded. Would that lead to some evidence of a dual engine or the use of tessellation on models.
 

Schnozberry

Member
The character models in Mario vs Sonic didn't appear to show any visible polygons they all seem well rounded. Would that lead to some evidence of a dual engine or the use of tessellation on models.

Could be good lighting and antialiasing as well. Gotta work on that frame rate. Hopefully what we saw was an early build.
 

Meelow

Banned
The character models in Mario vs Sonic didn't appear to show any visible polygons they all seem well rounded. Would that lead to some evidence of a dual engine or the use of tessellation on models.

I was really impressed with Bowser Jr. Character model.

WUPP_MarioSonic_scrn03_Ev05.jpg


There is a better upfront picture but especially on his green skin had a lot of detail.
 
Of course it shows improvement over the PS3/360 version, they're not using the lighting and shading from the DLC, which was a clear step up from the original game. The dev never explicitly stated that the Wii-U's power allowed for those improvements, that's an editor's assumption of context. I'm not ignoring it or redirecting it, I'm not a fanboy with an agenda, it's the truth. As for "sharper than the PC version", here's what I take that to mean: they optimised the FXAA and applied a sharpening filter (check the screens if you doubt it), both of which are negligible in terms of performance. There's no way on earth it has higher resolution textures or renders at a higher res than the game running on PC, so it's really a meaningless statement.

EDIT: Overlooked this the first time, "While the game does look noticeably nicer than it did on 360 and PS3" is a quote from the article writer, not the developer.

I understand where you are coming from, but you are pretty much saying that 'The improvements were already made for those games DLC'. But the fact that those improvements were only made for PC says quite a bit. It either wasn't worthwhile to try and upgrade the PS360 experience, or it was impossible.

It makes these things plain:

Wii U is capable of performing at 2 year old middle of the road PC levels.

Such games are downscalable to PS360, but going going further with textures, lighting, effects, etc. on a middleware engine for DLC wasn't feasible for them, but is easy on Wii U.

Not all that impressive, no. But again, it gives the Wii U a lot more credit than most people give it.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
I was really impressed with Bowser Jr. Character model.

WUPP_MarioSonic_scrn03_Ev05.jpg


There is a better upfront picture but especially on his green skin had a lot of detail.

I didn't think it looked that good when I first saw the trailer. Now that I look at is up close, it is very impressive. Sadly, a lot people are going to say it looks it "looks like crap" or "looks just like a Wii game" and not acknowledge any of the improvements. They will dismiss it do to the nature of the art style and design.

I cannot spot a single geometric edge in those characters round portions. Roundness is not something the average joe will praise, though. Roundness is the hardest thing to achieve in 3D models. This is definitely next gen. At least where the character modals are concerned.

There are only two possibilities I see here. It is either using tessellation or it has so many polygons in the modal that it looks round. Anti-aliasing and lighting aren't going to remove visible vertices. Either one indicates a huge bump in GPU capability over the previous gen.
 
Ah, now I see where you are coming from. It's all adding up.

Alright. That is understandable about T2. T1.

Though, why must the GMC be near the DDR3 I/O as opposed to the GP I/O? I always figured all of the graphical components would be near the GP I/O.

Not saying it this way to be condescending, but it's the memory controller. It needs be near the memory I/O. You're probably looking at higher memory latencies if you move it away from there.

Though it's interesting that while Brazos and Llano have that block, I don't see a similar one in Latte. Unless we want to say it's in X.

Not only do most of the parts match the later HD 6XXX, but there is also the matter of the embedded rumor and energy consumption with the maxes for Brazos being being min 9 watts and max 18 watts. All of these chips use DDR3 specifically. I've always wondered why Nintendo didn't stick with GDDR3 like they used in the Wii.

Brazos' GPU is pretty much the Cedar GPU as I understand it which is a 5000 series GPU.

GDDR3 is and end of life memory that has low densities (meaning higher costs for the same amount of memory in Wii U). The GDDR3 in the other consoles have a higher latency than the DDR3 in in Wii U. So it would seem these are the primary reasons Nintendo chose DDR3. If they went with GDDR5 they would not have needed the eDRAM.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
Not saying it this way to be condescending, but it's the memory controller. It needs be near the memory I/O. You're probably looking at higher memory latencies if you move it away from there.

Though it's interesting that while Brazos and Llano have that block, I don't see a similar one in Latte. Unless we want to say it's in X.



Brazos' GPU is pretty much the Cedar GPU as I understand it which is a 5000 series GPU.

GDDR3 is and end of life memory that has low densities (meaning higher costs for the same amount of memory in Wii U. The GDDR3 in the other consoles have a higher latency than the DDR3 in in Wii U. So it would seem these are the primary reasons Nintendo chose DDR3. If they went with GDDR5 they would not have needed the eDRAM.

Alright. This makes perfect sense. Also, I thought that was the case as well with the RAM.

I believe the The Wii U RAM had lower latency, giving it an overall higher real world performance than the 360/PS3's higher clocked RAM when you take bottlenecks into account, so that would mean that all of the claims of a RAM bottleneck were founded on minterpreted information. Even without taking the GPU's EDRAM into account, the Wii U's DDR3 should actually get better performance by my analysis(the 360 was bottlenecked to 10.5 Ghz effectives thanks to the CPU right? And the PS3's was supposedly worse than the 360's).

I definitely feel that we need to throw out this odd attachment to labeling it as a R7XX when it clearly isn't. The performance, the components, power consumption and physical layout match embedded HD6XXX a substantially more. People have been saying it doesn't look like an R7XX from the beginning(with the earliest guess being an HD5550) and the only bases for making it HD4XXX is an ancient rumor from a dev kit leak that also listed it as having 1.5 GB of RAM. We need to let that rumor die or least stop restricting the analysis too it.
 

StevieP

Banned
Although it isn't a direct r700 quite obviously, and is customized quite heavily as Evidence shows, Nintendo's own documentation lists it as such.
 

prag16

Banned
Although it isn't a direct r700 quite obviously, and is customized quite heavily as Evidence shows, Nintendo's own documentation lists it as such.
Yeah, the extremely old dev kit documentation. It's certainly possible it evolved since then.

And krizzx... it's "model" not "modal". not to be a prick, but I've seen you say modal enough times with nobody correcting you that I had to say something. :x
 

krizzx

Junior Member
Yeah, the extremely old dev kit documentation. It's certainly possible it evolved since then.

And krizzx... it's "model" not "modal". not to be a prick, but I've seen you say modal enough times with nobody correcting you that I had to say something. :x

I was actually using model at first, but I edited it to change it to modal, because I thought I was using the wrong spelling initially. Thanks for pointing that out.

Also, the old dev kit thing is exactly what i'm saying. Its clear that a lot of components int he dev kit were not final. The GPU in the kits probably was an R700. Not a custom one either. An actual R700. The RAM probably was 768 or 1.5 GB at one time. The dev kits also used the Wii Classic Controller Pro as opposed to the Wii U Pro Controller.


None of what was in the dev kits was finalized hardware.

Comparing it to the R700 series has yielded nothing in months. We compare it to Brazos for one day and things start making sense all of a sudden. One also cannot discount the rumor/leak shortly before launch that the the Wii U GPU was of the embedded 6XXX design if you want to rely on leaks.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
I was really impressed with Bowser Jr. Character model.

WUPP_MarioSonic_scrn03_Ev05.jpg


There is a better upfront picture but especially on his green skin had a lot of detail.

I played SMG recently and the Bowser Jr. model on that looks pretty impressive too. There's no jagged edge whatsoever.
 
I was actually using model at first, but I edited it to change it to modal, because I thought I was using the wrong spelling initially. Thanks for pointing that out.

Also, the old dev kit thing is exactly what i'm saying. Its clear that a lot of components int he dev kit were not final. The GPU in the kits probably was an R700. Not a custom one either. An actual R700. The RAM probably was 768 or 1.5 GB at one time. The dev kits also used the Wii Classic Controller Pro as opposed to the Wii U Pro Controller.



None of what was in the dev kits was finalized hardware.

Comparing it to the R700 series has yielded nothing in months. We compare it to Brazos for one day and things start making sense all of a sudden. One also cannot discount the rumor/leak shortly before launch that the the Wii U GPU was of the embedded 6XXX design if you want to rely on leaks.

Wasn't the GPU in earlier dev kits specifically a 4850
 

krizzx

Junior Member
Wasn't the GPU in earlier dev kits specifically a 4850

I believe so. That is what the earliest GPU reports stated shortly after the 2011 e3. What we have photographed on the first page clearly isn't.


EDIT: Look at what I found with a little searching.


Its not defitive proof but it is looking more likely than.

Also, all of these embedded chip claims stated that it would be custom made where the 4850 claims did not.
After analyzing it up to this far, this just seems to accurate to discount, now.
 
^ Ignore that info in that link. It pushes the E6760 as the possible GPU for Wii U. At best it should only be used as a comparison of possible performance.

I believe the The Wii U RAM had lower latency, giving it an overall higher real world performance than the 360/PS3's higher clocked RAM when you take bottlenecks into account, so that would mean that all of the claims of a RAM bottleneck were founded on minterpreted information. Even without taking the GPU's EDRAM into account, the Wii U's DDR3 should actually get better performance by my analysis(the 360 was bottlenecked to 10.5 Ghz effectives thanks to the CPU right? And the PS3's was supposedly worse than the 360's).

I wouldn't go so far as to claim it's a better performer than PS360's memory setup (or 360 at least). I think that's subjective and will depend on developer needs.
 

JordanN

Banned
What happened Jordan? Your posts are the exact opposite of what I remember. You kinda sound like a scorned lover. :p
A combination of finally getting to play more PS3/360 games and evaluating certain comments.

Wii U isn't the 1tflop console I hoped it to be (or even HD 6570) and I'm kinda angry at how Nintendo is handling the system right now.

Apart from that, nothing else changed. I still think it's more powerful than PS3/360. But the potential Nintendo had with the specs... completely wasted.

The character models in Mario vs Sonic didn't appear to show any visible polygons they all seem well rounded. Would that lead to some evidence of a dual engine or the use of tessellation on models.
You must not be looking.
FdrrYq4.png


The models are in PS3/360 range so if there was tessellation, it would be a waste.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
^ Ignore that info in that link. It pushes the E6760 as the possible GPU for Wii U. At best it should only be used as a comparison of possible performance.



I wouldn't go so far as to claim it's a better performer than PS360's memory setup (or 360 at least). I think that's subjective and will depend on developer needs.

Oh, don't worry, I was not even attempting to claim that Latte might be an e6760. It certainly not without a doubt.

I was listing it for the fact that it was the only time period that the GPU was being stated to be custom built before launch and that is was leaning towards the GPU being an embedded GPU. Latte appears to be heavily based on Brazos and possibly Cayman which are embedded.

Though, I should probably remove those links, because I know someone is going to take them out of context.

You must not be looking.
FdrrYq4.png


The models are in PS3/360 range so if there was tessellation, it would be a waste.

That looks like aliasing/pixelation. Tessellation does not reduce that. Claws aren't suppose to be round, they are suppose to have a sharp point.
 
Bg, I indicated last night that I largely disagree with your labeling of components. Allow me to elaborate in order to continue our friendly debate. Basically, I find a problem in the methodology you employ. To say that a block on one chip appears visually similar to a block on another chip is problematic, because the layout of SRAM changes drastically from design to design. For example, if we look at the shader blocks in R700, Llano, and Brazos, the SRAM arrangement is drastically different in each. Therefore, I find it very dangerous to draw a conclusion based on this alone. What I have tried to do is take basic appearance into account, but focus more on the amount of SRAM in each block and their placement on the chip.

For example, what you have labelled U on Llano, I actually believe to be analogous to F on Latte. Both have 32 small blocks of SRAM and lie adjacent to what we know to be the display interface. Thus, I would bet F to be display related, although it's hard to pinpoint exact function (edit: fairly certain now that it is the display controller).

The T blocks I am quite confident in at this point, not only because of their relationship to S (L1 texture cache), their close proximity to the DDR3 interface, and their striking resemblance to the TMUs on RV770, but because of the amount of SRAM contained within. If you look at The TMUs in Llano, you will see that there is a large disparity between the amount of SRAM they hold and the amount of SRAM in the J blocks - too much a disparity to be ignored, even taking the differing architectures into account.

I also see your point in being careful in giving die placement too much weight, since we see different arrangements. For example, ROPs may not always be right next to the memory interface. I do think it's worth keeping in mind, however, since RV770 utilized an approach which placed primary bandwidth consumers adjacent to the memory interface in place of a ring bus (something which does not seem to be present on Latte).

I label W as the ROPs, not only because they do resemble blocks around the outer edge of RV770, but also because there must be enough memory on them to to account for the color cache and Z cache. Llano seems to be a strange configuration and different from RV770. This link seems to say that there are 2 blocks, each containing L2, ROPs, Z cache and color cache.

http://www.realworldtech.com/fusion-llano/

I cannot find any two identical blocks to fit the bill, so the jury's out on that one. I wouldn't be surprised if they got that detail wrong and what you labeled W is a block of 8 ROPs with the block above it being the L2.

Finally, it is tough to tell which components even get their own dedicated blocks. For example, you name Hierarchical Z and the tesselator as two blocks which might be candidates for the duplets, yet have a look at this presentation. It's of the HD2000 generation, but the front end in AMD's cards went largely unchanged between this series and HD4000.

https://graphics.stanford.edu/wikis...AttachFile&do=get&target=Eric_Demers_R6XX.pdf

This pdf states that tesselation is performed within the vertex engine. Meanwhile, HiZ is a function of the scan converter/rasterizer. Actually, looking at this, I might have to slightly amend my labeling as the command processor seems to contain quite a few command queus and whatnot which are working with the CPU. I might have this as B now (edit: nope, I'm keeping it as C after seeing that Russian Brazos layout diagram). Also, I is the ideal location for thread dispatch as it needs to draw data from two different caches - the instruction cache and constant cache, which would fit the D block quite nicely. Down in P, I would guess might be a large stream out buffer. This has grown from 8k to 128k over the last few generations.

These changes in layout and the addition of extra memory (I also have the GDS more in line with recent chips) are the type of changes I would expect Nintendo to make to the R700 architecture, in contrast to a complete overhaul. This is why I do not understand when people say that Latte looks nothing like RV770. Many of the blocks look quite similar; they are just found in a different arrangement on the die.
 

Schnozberry

Member
Oh, don't worry, I was not even attempting to claim that Latte might be an e6760. It certainly not without a doubt.

I was listing it for the fact that it was the only time period that the GPU was being stated to be custom built before launch and that is was leaning towards the GPU being an embedded GPU. Latte appears to be heavily based on Brazos and possibly Cayman which are embedded.

Though, I should probably remove those links, because I know someone is going to take them out of context.

If we want to compare Latte to an embedded GPU, I'd go with this one. The only problem I would see is yields, but it may be it would be better if they did a die shrink.

Mobility Radeon 560v

That one is also based off of R700.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
If we want to compare Latte to an embedded GPU, I'd go with this one. The only problem I would see is yields, but it may be it would be better if they did a die shrink.

Mobility Radeon 560v

That one is also based off of R700.

You do understand the reason "why" we are comparing it to those chips, right? Its not because they are embedded.

I think you have missed the entire purpose of what we are doing.
 
Although it isn't a direct r700 quite obviously, and is customized quite heavily as Evidence shows, Nintendo's own documentation lists it as such.

So are you implying that documentation can't change, therefore the hardware can't or is it the other way around. Wasn't the Xbox360 original devkits PowerMac G5, which had devs working with a dual core processor and a GPU that came nowhere close to matching final silicon.
 

JordanN

Banned
That looks like aliasing/pixelation. Tessellation does not reduce that. Claws aren't suppose to be round, they are suppose to have a sharp point.
Actually, it's possible to have both.

The pixelation is from zooming in on the edges.

Other characters (non-zoom):
yXl0HDh.png


Nothing to suggest real use of tessellation. They're on par with the models in Marvel vs Capcom 3 ( a current gen game) covered up with some Anti-aliasing (bullshot?).

Also notice DK's flat fur. Seems like a missed opportunity to use tessellation (or just made on a budget).
 
A combination of finally getting to play more PS3/360 games and evaluating certain comments.

Wii U isn't the 1tflop console I hoped it to be (or even HD 6570) and I'm kinda angry at how Nintendo is handling the system right now.

Apart from that, nothing else changed. I still think it's more powerful than PS3/360. But the potential Nintendo had with the specs... completely wasted.


You must not be looking.
FdrrYq4.png


The models are in PS3/360 range so if there was tessellation, it would be a waste.


Well they're not very complex models, and have never been. But by blowing up the image you bring in to many other artifacts.
 

JordanN

Banned
Well they're not very complex models, and have never been. But by blowing up the image you bring in to many other artifacts.
You were the one who called them "well rounded". Unless there's something I'm missing, I'm not sure why you backed away from that claim.

Artifacts aren't enough to discredit something from being lowpoly. I blew up a still from Toy Story and there are still no visible edges (but that's because the objects are actually made of millions of polygons).
 
You were the one who called them "well rounded". Unless there's something I'm missing, I'm not sure why you backed away from that claim.

Artifacts aren't enough to discredit something from being lowpoly. I blew up a still from Toy Story and there are still no visible edges (but that's because the objects are actually made of millions of polygons).

It's a response to the 360/PS3 range comment, but looking at the image not zoomed in, the characters still appear to be well rounded.
 

JordanN

Banned
It's a response to the 360/PS3 range comment, but looking at the image not zoomed in, the characters still appear to be well rounded.
I would take into account the camera is zoomed out, the screenshot isn't even HD (it's 1024 x 576), the simple character design allows for some roundness (bowsers jr's head takes up most of his body) and there's gratuitous AA that may not be apart of gameplay.

Still, if you do look hard enough and at other screenshots featuring different characters, it becomes obvious they're not.

There's a night and day difference when you make a judgement off something so small like this, versus this.
 

Ryoku

Member
No, there's no sign of tessellation being in use in that game. Yeah, they seem nice, but you can see the visible edges of the polygons if you look closely. Many people won't notice this partly due to lack of a trained eye for these things, as well as proper lighting and some aliasing.
 
I would take into account the camera is zoomed out, the screenshot isn't even HD (it's 1024 x 576), the simple character design allows for some roundness (bowsers jr's head takes up most of his body) and there's gratuitous AA that may not be apart of gameplay.

Still, if you do look hard enough and at other screenshots featuring different characters, it becomes obvious they're not.

There's a night and day difference when you make a judgement off something so small like this, versus this.

Neither case involved blowing the screen many times past it's actual resolution...
 

OryoN

Member
I was really impressed with Bowser Jr. Character model.

WUPP_MarioSonic_scrn03_Ev05.jpg


There is a better upfront picture but especially on his green skin had a lot of detail.

Those models are sufficiently detailed that if they were to use more advanced techniques for lighting and shading, they'd truly look CG. Also, are the spectators in the background sprites or 3D models? If so, all of them or just the front rows? They all looked fully modeled in the trailer, but I still couldn't tell for sure.
 

wsippel

Banned
A combination of finally getting to play more PS3/360 games and evaluating certain comments.

Wii U isn't the 1tflop console I hoped it to be (or even HD 6570) and I'm kinda angry at how Nintendo is handling the system right now.

Apart from that, nothing else changed. I still think it's more powerful than PS3/360. But the potential Nintendo had with the specs... completely wasted.


You must not be looking.
FdrrYq4.png


The models are in PS3/360 range so if there was tessellation, it would be a waste.
Tessellation probably isn't what you believe it is. You don't see tessellation, so it's impossible to tell whether this or any other game on any other platform uses tessellation.
 

JordanN

Banned
Tessellation probably isn't what you believe it is. You don't see tessellation, so it's impossible to tell whether this or any other game on any other platform uses tessellation.
I'm way ahead of you.

"if there was tessellation"

I never admitted to them being tessellated or not. ;)


If those models are not using tessellation then Nintendo really dumped a large amount of polygons into them.
If last gen is alot of polygons to you, PS4/720 are going to absolutely blow your mind.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
Tessellation probably isn't what you believe it is. You don't see tessellation, so it's impossible to tell whether this or any other game on any other platform uses tessellation.

Indeed. Tessellation, in gaming anyway, Is generally used to make things rounder.


The texture detail is another story, however.

If those models are not using tessellation then Nintendo really dumped a large amount of polygons into them.

Take the picture I posted above for example. You can still see polygon vertices in the nose, eyebrows and ears but the rest is tessellated.

Pointing out a single instance of there being a discernible polygon doesn't mean that there isn't tessellation in use. Tessellation isn't magic.

What I don't get is how does someone dismiss or call something a waste of tessellation when they don't even know what it is or how to identify?
 

wsippel

Banned
I'm way ahead of you.

"if there was tessellation"
Are you? I don't know.

At the end of the day, no matter which platform we're talking about, tessellation is invisible. It's impossible to tell. Could be tessellation, could be LoD, could be neither, could be both. Who cares?
 

Meelow

Banned
Those models are sufficiently detailed that if they were to use more advanced techniques for lighting and shading, they'd truly look CG. Also, are the spectators in the background sprites or 3D models? If so, all of them or just the front rows? They all looked fully modeled in the trailer, but I still couldn't tell for sure.

The thing about this too is that the Mario and Sonic games on the Wii graphically looked worse than Mario Galaxy, so it will be interesting to see if 3D Mario that is developed by EAD Tokyo will look a lot better than this.

Also, the background looks like they are 3D models but I think we should wait until we get a better image of it.
 

JordanN

Banned
Are you? I don't know.

At the end of the day, no matter which platform we're talking about, tessellation is invisible. It's impossible to tell. Could be tessellation, could be LoD, could be neither, could be both. Who cares?
I guess people in this thread do? They're the ones who brought up tessellation first and are talking about it.
 

Schnozberry

Member
You do understand the reason "why" we are comparing it to those chips, right? Its not because they are embedded.

I think you have missed the entire purpose of what we are doing.

I was just pointing out that there were embedded designs in the correct wattage range prior to brazos and the HD 6xxx series. It could still be based on R700 and take on characteristics from AMD's embedded designs.
 
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