Support NeoGAF

[fred]

Yup, it's looking like a lot of first party stuff is targeting 720p and 60fps which I'm very okay with. Same goes for titles from indie developers like Platinum too with The Wonderful 101 and Bayonetta 2.

It's going to be interesting to see how the different SKUs of Call Of Duty Ghosts, Assassin's Creed IV and Watch Dogs differ from each other with regards to native resolution, effects, number of polys and framerate...particularly now that Treyarch and Ubisoft have had plenty of experience working with the hardware.

 

[prag16]

That site is blocked, I'd wager it's because the guy behind the site was banned.

Always wondered why the site was banned. It doesn't peddle false info or anything. What's the story behind that banning (of the guy behind the site)?

Lol...Lesson not learned I guess.

Indeed. Not really related: Anybody know which thread we lost SmokyDave to? I'd imagine he'll be back before long.

 

[Easy_D]

Always wondered why the site was banned. It doesn't peddle false info or anything. What's the story behind that banning (of the guy behind the site)?



Indeed. Not really related: Anybody know which thread we lost SmokyDave to? I'd imagine he'll be back before long.

This is why. So his website was blocked by proxy.

 

[Effect]

This is why. So his website was blocked by proxy.

No. Tilmen does not run that site. He's not connected to it in any way shape or form. Rawmeatcowboy runs that site and is a member here. The site just quoted his twitter since Tilmen (he's the one that's banned) tends to have access with Nintendo of Europe I think and is seemingly allowed to post a lot of stuff.

EatChildren a few months ago actually clarified why that site was still banned.

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37571607&postcount=1001

 

[Easy_D]

No. Tilmen does not run that site. He's not connected to it in any way shape or form. Rawmeatcowboy runs that site and is a member here. The site just quoted his twitter since Tilmen (he's the one that's banned) tends to have access with Nintendo of Europe I think and is seemingly allowed to post a lot of stuff.

EatChildren a few months ago actually clarified why that site was still banned.

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37571607&postcount=1001

I thought he was linking to Nintendomination, not the site you go to.

 

[Smurfman256]

I thought he was linking to Nintendomination, not the site you go to.

They have a tendency to report rumor as fact and not provide sources?

 

[Easy_D]

They have a tendency to report rumor as fact and not provide sources?

I don't visit either site, I made a mistake. He posted a link, that got censored, then a Nintendomination tweet. I knew the guy behind it was banned recently and wrongly put the two together.

SRY DUDES.
Now how about that new DK trailer. The levels look fucking huge, not that you explore them fully or anything but the camera pans are amazing.

And people say it looks like a Wii game in HD.

 

[Smurfman256]

I don't visit either site, I made a mistake. He posted a link, that got censored, then a Nintendomination tweet. I knew the guy behind it was banned recently and wrongly put the two together.

SRY DUDES.
Now how about that new DK trailer. The levels look fucking huge, not that you explore them fully or anything but the camera pans are amazing.

And people say it looks like a Wii game in HD.

Haven't seen it yet.

 

[YuChai]

I don't visit either site, I made a mistake. He posted a link, that got censored, then a Nintendomination tweet. I knew the guy behind it was banned recently and wrongly put the two together.

SRY DUDES.
Now how about that new DK trailer. The levels look fucking huge, not that you explore them fully or anything but the camera pans are amazing.

And people say it looks like a Wii game in HD.

it looks good. But I wonder will it look better as if they apply small amount of dof effects on the background

 

[T0wRen]

Anyone done any TPD tests on the Wii U after update 4.0.0? Wonder if we are pulling in more than 35 Watts now.

 

[tipoo]

Anyone done any TPD tests on the Wii U after update 4.0.0? Wonder if we are pulling in more than 35 Watts now.

I'd like to see this too. Not just with firmware updates, but newer more demanding games too. I wonder if it ever budged past 33W. Anyone with a kill-a-watt or other cheap wall plug monitor could check.

 

[lostinblue]

I'd like to see this too. Not just with firmware updates, but newer more demanding games too. I wonder if it ever budged past 33W. Anyone with a kill-a-watt or other cheap wall plug monitor could check.

There have been new measurements as recent as Splinter Cell Blacklist.

Top range draw was 36W with an external hdd being fed iirc.

 

[Nikodemos]

I'd like to see this too. Not just with firmware updates, but newer more demanding games too. I wonder if it ever budged past 33W. Anyone with a kill-a-watt or other cheap wall plug monitor could check.

Kill-a-watt is pretty inaccurate. There was a GAFer who used a professional monitor alongside it and there was a marked difference in results.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Kill-a-watt is pretty inaccurate. There was a GAFer who used a professional monitor alongside it and there was a marked difference in results.

Wasn't it by single digit watts? Well, I mean I guess the point doesn't really matter, who cares if it goes from 33 watts to like 45 watts? That's only 10 fucking watts.

 

[BaBaRaRa]

Wasn't it by single digit watts? Well, I mean I guess the point doesn't really matter, who cares if it goes from 33 watts to like 45 watts? That's only 10 fucking watts.

But then there'll be enough to power the turbo button!



Seriously though, seeing what was achieved with 33 watts, an extra 10 would be a major boost.

I don't believe for a minute that we're going to see an increased power draw, though.

 

[Nostremitus]

Wasn't it by single digit watts? Well, I mean I guess the point doesn't really matter, who cares if it goes from 33 watts to like 45 watts? That's only 10 fucking watts.

When 10 watts is almost a 30% increase it would be a big deal... it's too inaccurate.

edit: beaten, and I agree. I highly doubt there was any increase.

 

[Vagabundo]

Wasn't it by single digit watts? Well, I mean I guess the point doesn't really matter, who cares if it goes from 33 watts to like 45 watts? That's only 10 fucking watts.

lol for real? I can't tell when you're being serious or not.

 

[Log4Girlz]

When 10 watts is almost a 30% increase it would be a big deal... it's too inaccurate.

edit: beaten, and I agree. I highly doubt there was any increase.

Hey this incredibly underpowered GPU has an extra TEN WATTS!! Its kinda meaningless in the context of the graphics its producing. I mean, I don't care if a cell phone gpu is using 500 milli-watts vs. 1 watt, even if 1 watt is a doubling of power. If we were talking about 150 watts vs. 200 in a next gen console then that's something.

 

[tipoo]

There have been new measurements as recent as Splinter Cell Blacklist.

Top range draw was 36W with an external hdd being fed iirc.

Not any different without the external HDD to feed then, I assume?

Wasn't it by single digit watts? Well, I mean I guess the point doesn't really matter, who cares if it goes from 33 watts to like 45 watts? That's only 10 fucking watts.

For a system only drawing 33 watts, that 21% boost is pretty significant. If it means higher clock speeds or at least higher chip utilization, that would imply more performance can be tapped with the right methods.

You say only a 50 watt increase would matter to you, but the baseline for those other consoles is much higher. A 50 watt increase at 150 would "only" be 30%, which is about what a 10w would be here. Sure the absolute power increase would be more for 50, but relative to the baseline it's not a whole lot more. Plus the lower wattage console could benefit from it more.

 

[lostinblue]

Not any different without the external HDD to feed then, I assume?

I don't like to rely too much on my memory so here it is:

Quick update on the wattage. Had a line tech at work calibrate the fluke 1735 meter for me so it should be as accurate as it can be. I ran home and did a quick test on my lunch break, and here's what I got.

1. Wii U without my external hard drive and USB network adapter attached sitting at the home menu: 32w

Same scenario playing Splinter Cell Blacklist from disc drive: 36w

Wii U with External Drive and USB Network Adapter sitting at home menu: 43w

Same Scenario playing Splinter Cell Blacklist from disc drive: 47w

So, it turns out the fluke needed a little calibration, and my initial tests were a little high. I did not test again with the cheap ass Kill-a-Watt meter because I only had a half hour to get home, eat lunch and test, and then get my ass back to work.

Splinter Cell Blacklist actually uses up 36 Watts without an external hdd being plugged in.

Kill-a-watt is pretty inaccurate. There was a GAFer who used a professional monitor alongside it and there was a marked difference in results.

Yup, properly quoted now.

 

[sfried]

A great deal of people are confusing framerate drops by design and performance framerate drops. The latter happens very rarely, the former happens whenever you Unite Morph.

Bayonetta 2 has shown us that the Wii U hardware has no problems at all producing great quality IQ locked at 60fps.

I can understand intentional pauses and slowdown (such as your slashes connecting in Zelda), but I do notice there have been some performance framedrops on my download copy, especially in the scene were the tanker truck explodes (in that demo that sequence was a silky smooth 60 fps).

 

[Smurfman256]

I can understand intentional pauses and slowdown (such as your slashes connecting in Zelda), but I do notice there have been some performance framedrops on my download copy, especially in the scene were the tanker truck explodes (in that demo that sequence was a silky smooth 60 fps).

uhh...what game are you referring to?

 

[Log4Girlz]

For a system only drawing 33 watts, that 21% boost is pretty significant. If it means higher clock speeds or at least higher chip utilization, that would imply more performance can be tapped with the right methods.
You say only a 50 watt increase would matter to you, but the baseline for those other consoles is much higher. A 50 watt increase at 150 would "only" be 30%, which is about what a 10w would be here. Sure the absolute power increase would be more for 50, but relative to the baseline it's not a whole lot more. Plus the lower wattage console could benefit from it more.

Like I had said, I wouldn't care about a 500 milli-watt to 1 watt jump in a cell phone architecture because its basically boring. 10 watt jump in such a meager console is kinda boring in my opinion, regardless of what the ratio is. Again, cell-phone example. Or say, imagine we knew the GPU had a 5 watt draw...but then we discover it was actually 10 watts the whole time! Zzzz boring. I really wish it was something like "It can draw up to 75 watts!"

 

[69wpm]

uhh...what game are you referring to?

The Wonderful 101 I assume.

 

[sfried]

uhh...what game are you referring to?

W101, the very first stage (Operation 001-A). When you see GEATHJERK as the truck is speeding out of control, I know it is a fluid 60 FPS in the demo, but for some reason its sub-60ish in my copy.

 

[Nostremitus]

Like I had said, I wouldn't care about a 500 milli-watt to 1 watt jump in a cell phone architecture because its basically boring. 10 watt jump in such a meager console is kinda boring in my opinion, regardless of what the ratio is. Again, cell-phone example. Or say, imagine we knew the GPU had a 5 watt draw...but then we discover it was actually 10 watts the whole time! Zzzz boring. I really wish it was something like "It can draw up to 75 watts!"

So... You're basically saying that you find the topic of this thread boring and have nothing to add, dont have any interest in Latte's power draw or capability, and no reason to be here other than to make inflammatory remarks. Why are you here? You say you don't care about ratios? Then I say you don't understand what you're talking about. You just said that a 100% increase in a hypothetical GPU's power consumption would be boring...

Considering what the WiiU is capable of accomplishing with its meager wattage, a 5 or 10 watt increase could be substantial, a 75 watt increase would be science fiction. If you don't understand that, or how ratios work, then you should probably choose not to post in technical threads. If you don't care for the topic of a thread, you should probably choose not to post in it.

Just saying...

 

[Smurfman256]

W101, the very first stage (Operation 001-A). When you see GEATHJERK as the truck is speeding out of control, I know it is a fluid 60 FPS in the demo, but for some reason its sub-60ish in my copy.

I was wondering because the post that you quoted referenced Bayonetta 2.

 

[tipoo]

Like I had said, I wouldn't care about a 500 milli-watt to 1 watt jump in a cell phone architecture because its basically boring. 10 watt jump in such a meager console is kinda boring in my opinion, regardless of what the ratio is. Again, cell-phone example. Or say, imagine we knew the GPU had a 5 watt draw...but then we discover it was actually 10 watts the whole time! Zzzz boring. I really wish it was something like "It can draw up to 75 watts!"

Can't be wrong about the way you feel I guess, but to me the interesting thing is ratios. Phones are a bad example because their power draw also ties you to battery life, but yes, if I had a desktop graphics card for example that had a power draw of 15W, but could get to 30 with a bios replacement or something and had performance somewhat scale with that (performance does not scale linearly with clock speed or power draw of course), that would be a bigger deal to me than a 250 watt card being able to draw 50 watts more. The latter card would already be capable of producing top end visuals, while the former would be struggling, so not only is the performance increase larger as a percentage of the baseline but the capabilities increase more than the high end ones would too.

But anyways. Not to argue about opinions, it just seems to me ratios are more important than absolute number increase.

So, 36W with a newer game WITHOUT a hard drive attached, eh? I wonder, was the 33W original measurement measured with the same calibration, and can it be repeated now with the new firmware on older games, or is it just for newer games, or just for the newer firmware?

 

[Jrs3000]

New screens for mario world here showing some nice effects.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=697579

 

[joesiv]

New screens for mario world here showing some nice effects.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=697579

Indeed, and also shows off a bit more of it's intersting mixed shadowing stuff:


Showing lower resolution traditional dynamic shadowmaps:

Showing off shadow fall off for vertical spans:

Showing a good comparison of types of blob shadows:

I'm thinking there are 3 types of shadows that the game uses:

1. Traditional Shadowmaps - This is what you see in the first image
2. Primitive Blob Shadows - This is what you see in the 3rd image, but also in any other image without dynamic lighting, things like floating blocks use square ones, roundish characters use round ones, etc.. These ones seem to be used for the mario and team when they get close to an edge of a wall, and they appear to taper off over longer distances, a neat effect, which can be seen in the second image (and wasn't seen in earlier screenshots).
3. Prebaked/animated complicated blob shadows, these are seen in the 3rd image, mario's shadow clearly isn't a simple blob shadow, it has limbs that are fairly accurate, and not just a few circles added together. I'd bet it is a pre baked shadow that matches his animations. being pre-baked allows it to have some nice edges.

 

[Schnozberry]

Mario shadows have always been more about indicating your position in a 3D space for platforming purposes. They use dynamic shadows when it's useful for gameplay, and they use primitive techniques when it's better for the player. Full blown real time shadows would be a train wreck in this type of game.

 

[Rolf NB]

The specularity makes no sense. When you think about where the light source would have to be to produce the specularity in these spots, you can't get a reading that's consistent even between multiple specularly lit objects in the same frame. It's also totally inconsistent with the shadow directions. And of course with the rim lighting.

 

[tipoo]

I don't like to rely too much on my memory so here it is:

I wonder if Nintendos "typical 45w" comment figured in that most users would want an external hard drive, as that would explain why it's never gotten up there without one attached. And I wonder if their max of 75 watts could be hit just by charging/powering more stuff, rather than the core system taking any more power.

 

[Smurfman256]

Indeed, and also shows off a bit more of it's intersting mixed shadowing stuff:


Showing lower resolution traditional dynamic shadowmaps:

Showing off shadow fall off for vertical spans:

Showing a good comparison of types of blob shadows:

I'm thinking there are 3 types of shadows that the game uses:

1. Traditional Shadowmaps - This is what you see in the first image
2. Primitive Blob Shadows - This is what you see in the 3rd image, but also in any other image without dynamic lighting, things like floating blocks use square ones, roundish characters use round ones, etc.. These ones seem to be used for the mario and team when they get close to an edge of a wall, and they appear to taper off over longer distances, a neat effect, which can be seen in the second image (and wasn't seen in earlier screenshots).
3. Prebaked/animated complicated blob shadows, these are seen in the 3rd image, mario's shadow clearly isn't a simple blob shadow, it has limbs that are fairly accurate, and not just a few circles added together. I'd bet it is a pre baked shadow that matches his animations. being pre-baked allows it to have some nice edges.

Anybody else notice that some of the models look like they have really bloody high poly counts?

 

[OryoN]

Anybody else notice that some of the models look like they have really bloody high poly counts?

That's pretty much typical for most Nintendo in-game character models. The assets in Nintendoland's plaza, Mario Kart 8, Smash Bros U, and the new Mario & Sonic winter olympic game immediately come to mind. Relatively high poly counts is part of why they usually have a CG-like appearance to them(along with great shading techniques), and why many people have been so excited at the idea of seeing Nintendo games in HD. I think people are going to be surprised by what Nintendo will achieved on Wii U this coming gen, much like how the number of gorgeous 60fps games caught everyone off-guard at the last E3.

 

[Donnie]

Like I had said, I wouldn't care about a 500 milli-watt to 1 watt jump in a cell phone architecture because its basically boring. 10 watt jump in such a meager console is kinda boring in my opinion, regardless of what the ratio is. Again, cell-phone example. Or say, imagine we knew the GPU had a 5 watt draw...but then we discover it was actually 10 watts the whole time! Zzzz boring. I really wish it was something like "It can draw up to 75 watts!"

XBox and the XBox Slim have the same performance. If you increased XBox Slim's performance/power draw by 25% you've increased its draw by about 20w, only 20w how boring yeah? If you increase the original XBox's performance by 25% you've increased its power draw by nearly 50w, wow how exciting!......

Total wattage increases aren't important, percentage increases are.

 

[fred]

Anybody else notice that some of the models look like they have really bloody high poly counts?

Yup, I think that's why Nintendo have been insisting that people filming Wii U games in action must have the camera back far enough so that you can tell that it's gameplay. The polys being pushed in the Bayonetta 2 demo in particular is very impressive.

 

[JordanN]

Anybody else notice that some of the models look like they have really bloody high poly counts?

Edit: Anyone who just browsed the thread, go straight to this post.

 

[ab.aeterno]

Yup, I think that's why Nintendo have been insisting that people filming Wii U games in action must have the camera back far enough so that you can tell that it's gameplay. The polys being pushed in the Bayonetta 2 demo in particular is very impressive.

The only thing I don't like about WiiU games are that they look almost too good.

 

[prag16]

What's that? PS1, PS2, PS3, PC? The game appears to fall somewhere inbetween PS2 and PS3.

 

[fred]

What's that? PS1, PS2, PS3, PC? The game appears to fall somewhere inbetween PS2 and PS3.

It would be an incredible waste if any of those characters/objects drew more geometry than the whole game, however. The baseball shouldn't have more poly's than Mario when it's literally a sphere.

Please tell me you're not being serious and my sarcasm detector is broken lol

 

[JordanN]

What? You actually think those coins are made of a million polygons or something? I'm pretty sure I've been collecting those things since the Gamecube (there was even a tech demo where they created a crap load of them and it showed their wireframes).

Mario 3D World isn't even a complex game. I actually think Bayonetta 2 is far better. The Wii U hardware is also close to the PS3, so why would polycounts suddenly quadruple? You want far better polycounts, you can only expect that on PS4/XBO or a PC. If the Wii U can do more, have a developer come out and say so like they do for the other platforms.

 

[ArchangelWest]

That should be the response to almost everything he posts. That or some sort of barf gif.

 

[plank]

Where is krizzx when you need him?

 

[fred]

My word, he was being serious lol. Unbelievable.

I think you need to watch the Bayonetta 2 demo again if you're unsure whether the Wii U is pushing considerably more polys than the PS3 or 360 and pay particular attention to the Gomorrah boss fight. And if you can't see it then I would suggest you pop into Specsavers lol.

 

[JordanN]

Edit: No quote for you.

 

[lwilliams3]

What? You actually think those coins are made of a million polygons or something? I'm pretty sure I've been collecting those things since the Gamecube (there was even a tech demo where they created a crap load of them and it showed their wireframes).

Mario 3D World isn't even a complex game. I actually think Bayonetta 2 is far better. The Wii U hardware is also close to the PS3, so why would polycounts suddenly quadruple? You want far better polycounts, you can only expect that on PS4/XBO or a PC. If the Wii U can do more, have a developer come out and say so like they do for the other platforms.

The thing is.. no one was saying anything like that. Due to the relatively simplistic designs of Mario's characters, it will not take a ton of polygons for them to have a cgi-ish look. Sonic Generations' characters, for example, have a nice smooth look, and those model's polygon counts for the main characters ranged from 15k to 22k. Eggman's model was decently high at 33k, but it was managable with current-gen systems.

In comparison, Mario's model for Galaxy was already good, and it was only 6900 polygons. I don't expect the 3D World's model to be significantly higher since it would be a bit wasteful when you include all the possible multiple characters and clones on-screen.

 

[JordanN]

The thing is.. no one was saying anything like that. Due to the relatively simplistic designs of Mario's characters, it will not take a ton of polygons for them to have a cgi-ish look. Sonic Generations' characters, for example, have a nice smooth look, and those model's polygon counts for the main characters ranged from 15k to 22k. Eggman's model was decently high at 33k, but it was managable with current-gen systems.

In comparison, Mario's model for Galaxy was already good, and it was only 6900 polygons. I don't expect the 3D World's model to be significantly higher since it would be a bit wasteful when you include all the possible multiple characters and clones on-screen.

You have to see where I was coming from though. I have no idea what "bloody high" means for a Mario game (or any game for that matter). Someone responding with a gif (saying I was wrong for placing it close to PS3?) doesn't help things either. So what was I left with? Either it looks like a PS1 game or it's some kind of never before seen render in the console space.

 

[lwilliams3]

You have to understand where I was coming from. I have no idea what "bloody high" means for a Mario game (or any game for that matter). Someone responding with a gif (saying I was wrong for placing it close to PS3?) doesn't help things either. So what was I left with? Either it looks like a PS1 game or it's some kind of never before seen render in the console space.

Honestly, not too many games have a similar look to this game besides Galaxy to make a good comparison. In either case, categorizing the game's graphics as "between the PS2 and PS3" sounds worse than saying, "current-gen level," and it's a weird statement considering how few games you can compare the graphics to.

 

[JordanN]

Honestly, not many games has a similar look to this game besides Galaxy to make a good comparison. In either case, categorizing the game's graphics as "between the PS2 and PS3" sounds worse than saying, "current-gen level," and it's a weird statement considering how few games you can compare the game graphics to in any generation.

Once you remove Mario's textures and lighting, you're going to be left with the same shell of geometry that every 3D video game is bound by.

I used the coin as an example. It's not taxing no matter you try to define it. I'm sure you could rip those and it would run fine on the PS2 or Gamecube. Props in video games, they all have a poly budget to abide by and Mario is no different.

Also, I was categorizing the models. In which case, they're not consistent.

Edit: This is ok.