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[SatoAilDarko]

I think playing portable carts is a real possibility.

Also there may be no optical drive.

 

[big_erk]

I don't know about "smarter." Removing a disc drive from a console allows the console to utilize that space for better hardware.

As well as increasing overall reliability and cooling efficiency.

 

[Why would you do that?]

SD Card != Cartridge

Yeah, but the kind of ROMs used in cartridges are likely mask ROMs, which, from what I understand, are cheaper to manufacture than the flash memory used in SD cards. That's why I made the comparison, because a 32 GB ROM should be cheaper than a 32 GB SD card, the latter of which is $3.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I don't know why people refuse to understand, or acknowledge, that carts are FAR more expensive than optical media. There's a reason all consoles use discs. For the equivalent amount of space (up to their max capacity) they're MUCH cheaper

 

[PdotMichael]

For the handheld.

Not for the console.

I don't know why people refuse to understand, or acknowledge, that carts are FAR more expensive than optical media. There's a reason all consoles use discs. For the equivalent amount of space (up to their max capacity) they're MUCH cheaper

Literally "carts make Nintendo great again" dreams

 

[Clov]

It would be neat for sure! I'd love it if they went back to carts personally. Wouldn't have to worry as much about HDD space that way, and less moving parts just means less things that can break. I'm not sure how much third parties would like it though, since discs are going to be way cheaper no matter what.

 

[test_account]

Aren't load times still better with cartridges though? I don't remember 3Ds having particularly long times (since I forgot about them obviously lol), whereas disc based systems have always had long load times.

I'm not sure what the general consensus is, but it will variate from game to game. Not sure about the 3DS, but i've had a game on Vita that had like 30-40 second loading for example (dont remember the title, some medieval tower defense type of game). Games on NX will have more data to load (at least the console version). I could easily see 20-30 second load times on NX i think, but again, it will depend on the game.

 

[Kyuur]

Yeah, just checkout all those western devs games on the 3DS that sold millions.. oh wait.

You could easily apply the same argument to Wii/WiiU (for the former, compare the number of west dev sellers to other regions ratio to other consoles). The third party problem isn't going to be made or broken on whether the new console uses cartridges, and there's no reason to assume Nintendo is going to design its new console to appeal to western developers when they never have done so in the past.

 

[Skittzo0413]

Yeah, just checkout all those western devs games on the 3DS that sold millions.. oh wait.

Why do you think Japanese third party devs don't care about the cartridge cost but for some reason western third party devs do?

Edit:

I don't know why people refuse to understand, or acknowledge, that carts are FAR more expensive than optical media. There's a reason all consoles use discs. For the equivalent amount of space (up to their max capacity) they're MUCH cheaper

Can we get a source for that? I'm seeing all sorts of numbers thrown around, like $1 for 50GB Blu-ray discs and <$3 for 32GB ROM cartridges. If Nintendo is willing to eat that ~$2 licensing cost then what exactly is the problem?

 

[ozfunghi]

Yeah, but the kind of ROMs used in cartridges are likely mask ROMs, which, from what I understand, are cheaper to manufacture than the flash memory used in SD cards. That's why I made the comparison, because a 32 GB ROM should be cheaper than a 32 GB SD card, the latter of which is $3.

As Beril, an actual dev, pointed out in other threads, ROM memory is indeed cheaper AND faster because it is basically "one way" (Read Only) memory.

I made a post in another topic with the pro's of dropping BR/optical:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=201269118&postcount=7751

I don't know why people refuse to understand, or acknowledge, that carts are FAR more expensive than optical media. There's a reason all consoles use discs. For the equivalent amount of space (up to their max capacity) they're MUCH cheaper

I don't know why people refuse to read and understand they are wrong if you look at the bigger picture.

 

[-Horizon-]

It'd be cool if they could figure it out.

 

[LewieP]

For the handheld.

Not for the console.

So then how am I supposed to buy a game once and play it on either device like Nintendo have said they want people to be able to.

I don't think there's any way to rule out a shared physical media (game cards) without also ruling out a shared library (one of the very few things Nintendo have said about the NX).

 

[BigDug13]

they are only tht big because they have 50 gigs to work with so they know they dont have to compress shit.

That sounds like the thinking that went into Nintendo's decision to use cartridges on N64 and then still using a small disc on GameCube. The reality is that third parties are making games for PC, PS4, Xbox. Nintendo shouldn't make a system where third parties are expected to heavily compress things for one failing system maker. It might not be worth it for them. And the things that get compressed might not be a good thing. Like games that had shit audio on GameCube because the dev needed to shave off some kilobits.

If you want another dying Nintendo system that lacks any meaningful third party titles, sure go ahead and advocate for vastly smaller physical media.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

So then how am I supposed to buy a game once and play it on either device like Nintendo have said they want people to be able to.

I don't think there's any way to rule out a shared physical media (game cards) without also ruling out a shared library (one of the very few things Nintendo have said about the NX).

Cloud saves and a digital version for the other system. The fact that they're doing cloud saves, should point to the idea that they're not using a single cart/disc/medium for both the handheld and console.

They won't use cards on a console and they won't use discs on a handheld because both of those have been proven in the past to be terrible ideas

 

[test_account]

So then how am I supposed to buy a game once and play it on either device like Nintendo have said they want people to be able to.

I don't think there's any way to rule out a shared physical media (game cards) without also ruling out a shared library (one of the very few things Nintendo have said about the NX).

Did Nintendo really say this? I feel like this has only been speculation due to the shared OS type comment Iwata made. Same thing that spawned the hybrid speculation. But i havnt followed it that closely.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

More RAM = more data to be transferred, longer load times

Faster BUS = more expensive card

The only way this would be remotely viable would be if Nintendo somehow got cartridges that are 10x larger and 25x faster than 3DS cards for the same price.

Ooh, that doesn't sound very realistic at all then. Maybe they'll try some hybrid UMD type of thing tho, who knows :/

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[PdotMichael]

So then how am I supposed to buy a game once and play it on either device like Nintendo have said they want people to be able to.

I don't think there's any way to rule out a shared physical media (game cards) without also ruling out a shared library (one of the very few things Nintendo have said about the NX).

They never did it though.

They said they wanted to streamline the developing process, they never told anyone that you get a game for two different systems.
Which doesn't really work out for all kinds of technical and business reasons.

 

[kennyamr]

Will the NX do my taxes?

I don't know. No one knows.

So many NX threads.

lol

 

[beril]

As Beril, an actual dev, pointed out in other threads, ROM memory is indeed cheaper AND faster because it is basically "one way" (Read Only) memory.

I made a post in another topic with the pro's of dropping BR/optical:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=201269118&postcount=7751

My status as a dev doesn't really give any credence to my statement in this case, so it's odd that you'd quote me on that. I code stuff, I don't manufacture memory modules. But yes, from my understanding, pure ROM simply uses less material per byte than any rewritable memory.

 

[Plinko]

Yeah, just checkout all those western devs games on the 3DS that sold millions.. oh wait.

I think we both know this has everything to do with Nintendo's relationships with third parties.

 

[tsab]

I dont think they will abandon the disc format for the NX console, they will recycle it so they can at least earn the investment back, they won't do SD cards to distribute games since piracy (remember Nokia Ncage?) and a propriety format would be more expensive than roms.

The pros are of course cheaper console since a disc drive will be missing (or more/better hardware for the console for the same price) and/or smaller form factor for the console with lower noise
In fact screw this I want them to do a cartridge based NX console now.
Cons: Almost zero chance for BC with WiiU. Even if they do it ala GBA player they won't include a disc drive

 

[The End]

would be a disaster

I didn't say it would be a good idea

We're still probably 5 years away from a fully digital console, if for no other reason than the last time someone tried it (PSPGo) a lot of stores refused to stock the hardware.

 

[Elios83]

Memory cards for the home console is not happening.
No one wants to sell games on 64GB cards lol.
Digital only is more likely and that says it all.
For the handheld yes of course it will be cartridge based.

 

[Undead Fantasy]

As long as they do physical media I'm fine. The NX is totally doomed otherwise.

Exactly this.

 

[ozfunghi]

My status as a dev doesn't really give any credence to my statement in this case, so it's odd that you'd quote me on that. I code stuff, I don't manufacture memory modules. But yes, from my understanding, pure ROM simply uses less material per byte than any rewritable memory.

I think you are wrong about that. While you may not be an expert on memory storage solutions, being an actual dev proves you are not a 16 year old who's talking out of his ass. The medium Nintendo choses, has a direct impact on you as a dev. I doubt you would be in favor of cartridges, if it would have a negative impact on your possible future releases.

I dont think they will abandon the disc format for the NX console, they will recycle it so they can at least earn the investment back, they won't do SD cards to distribute games since piracy (remember Nokia Ncage?) and a propriety format would be more expensive than roms.

The pros are of course cheaper console since a disc drive will be missing (or more/better hardware for the console for the same price) and/or smaller form factor for the console with lower noise
In fact screw this I want them to do a cartridge based NX console now.
Cons: Almost zero chance for BC with WiiU. Even if they do it ala GBA player they won't include a disc drive

Any chance of BC went out the window due to them dropping PPC in favor of x86 or ARM. Also, check out my older post.

 

[RPGCrazied]

As long as they do physical media I'm fine. The NX is totally doomed otherwise.

This. If they go all digital, then I'm out. Don't care what games they show for it. Physical media or bust.

 

[KingBroly]

I dont think they will abandon the disc format for the NX console, they will recycle it so they can at least earn the investment back, they won't do SD cards to distribute games since piracy (remember Nokia Ncage?) and a propriety format would be more expensive than roms.

The pros are of course cheaper console since a disc drive will be missing (or more/better hardware for the console for the same price) and/or smaller form factor for the console with lower noise
In fact screw this I want them to do a cartridge based NX console now.
Cons: Almost zero chance for BC with WiiU. Even if they do it ala GBA player they won't include a disc drive

It's not like there are many Wii U games worth playing via BC on NX. And the ones that are seem like they're getting ported.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Many here think cartridges is a real possibility so discs it is.

 

[TheChamp]

I dont see what would be wrong with cartridges given they can actually hold more data than discs can these days

 

[KingWool]

Any chance of BC went out the window due to them dropping PPC in favor of x86 or ARM.

Microsoft is doing BC on Xbone...but then again; Nintendo can't even make a proper NES and N64 emulator.

 

[beril]

Memory cards for the home console is not happening.
No one wants to sell games on 64GB cards lol.
Digital only is more likely and that says it all.
For the handheld yes of course it will be cartridge based.

It's funny that people keep saying this; but a normal generational leap over 3DS carts should already give you sizes in that range.

 

[kswiston]

Many here think cartridges is a real possibility so discs it is.

Given the size of PS4 games, I don't know why anyone things that proprietary memory would be at all feasible cost-wise. 32GB and 64GB cards are a lot cheaper now than they were 5 years ago, but the cost isn't negligible.

It's funny that people keep saying this; but a normal generational leap over 3DS carts should already give you sizes in that range.

Aren't the biggest 3DS cards 32 gigabits (4 gigs)?

 

[Instro]

The only way I see this being feasible on the console is if Nintendo eats some or all of the additional costs for 3rd parties by taking a smaller royalty cut.

 

[ozfunghi]

Microsoft is doing BC on Xbone...but then again; Nintendo can't even make a proper NES and N64 emulator.

With that difference that X360 sold nearly 100M units, and WiiU sold about 10% of that. Going the extra mile, investing in either extra hardware (include WiiU CPU in NX) or develop a potent emulator, are quickly negated by the fact that it is much more interesting to ignore the small userbase that owned a WiiU and the fact that you have a string of excellent games (nobody owned due to the small userbase on WiiU) that might fill the NX software library with remasters in 1080/60.

 

[PdotMichael]

Memory cards for the home console is not happening.
No one wants to sell games on 64GB cards lol.
Digital only is more likely and that says it all.
For the handheld yes of course it will be cartridge based.

Extra points for Nintendo going full asshole again with longer production time (producing cards takes longer than just plain printing discs) and a higher minimum purchase.

I remember that Sony got a lot of support in Japan with the PSP just because the UMD was the cheaper and less risky way of selling smaller and medium titles because UMDs were cheaper, faster produced and the minimum bulk size was smaller.

 

[beril]

Given the size of PS4 games, I don't know why anyone things that proprietary memory would be at all feasible cost-wise. 32GB and 64GB cards are a lot cheaper now than they were 5 years ago, but the cost isn't negligible.



Aren't the biggest 3DS cards 32 gigabits (4 gigs)?

Technically the max is 8GB, though no game ever used it. Probably more because it's massive overkill for a handheld with a 240p screen than because of cost. The few games that used 4GB carts didn't come close to filling it up.
It's pretty usual to get an 8x increase in cart sizes between generations.

 

[ozfunghi]

...and a higher minimum purchase.

Where i live, an average WiiU game is $10 cheaper than the average XBO/PS4 game. So they still have a healthy margin.

 

[tsab]

It's not like there are many Wii U games worth playing via BC on NX. And the ones that are seem like they're getting ported.

Spoiler

Whispers Bayonetta 2 and runs away

Microsoft is doing BC on Xbone...but then again; Nintendo can't even make a proper NES and N64 emulator.

That's why I think they can sell us an addon that contains the WiiU CPU to do it properly.
You have a WiiU? Keep it and play there
You are a NX only owner and want more titles buy the 100$ expansion blah blah blah.


apologies if I derailed the thread a bit

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Where i live, an average WiiU game is $10 cheaper than the average XBO/PS4 game. So they still have a healthy margin.

He's talking about cards/carts, so the N64 where cartridges were significantly more expensive than discs. Also you analysis of the benefits of cards does nothing to address the main issue which is the medium being more expensive.

It was a major issue with the N64, despite cartridges having all the same advantages you listed (and was the reason they went with them) and it's still an issue now

 

[kswiston]

Technically the max is 8GB, though no game ever used it. Probably more because it's massive overkill for a handheld with a 240p screen than because of cost. The few games that used 4GB carts didn't come close to filling it up.
It's pretty usual to get an 8x increase in cart sizes between generations.

That might slow down though, since flash media hasn't been doubling as fast as it was previously.

 

[ozfunghi]

He's talking about cards/carts, so the N64 where cartridges were significantly more expensive than discs. Also you analysis of the benefits of cards does nothing to address the main issue which is the medium being more expensive.

It was a major issue with the N64, despite cartridges having all the same advantages you listed (and was the reason they went with them) and it's still an issue now

That is factually incorrect. You can have cards just as big as BR discs now. The reason why it was a problem in the N64 days was just that: CD's could hold more data.

I'm also talking about cards. You can have the consumer pay for the difference because there is a $10 margin.

And my analysis does address the cost just fine. It's based upon the investigative work of a fellow gaffer (Terrell) who works in logistics. The cost saved by shipping and stocking cards (using smaller cases) would outweigh the cost of the actual card.

That might slow down though, since flash media hasn't been doubling as fast as it was previously.

Flash =/= ROM, is it?

 

[beril]

That might slow down though, since flash media hasn't been doubling as fast as it was previously.

Someone posted reports in the other thread that Macronix was moving their XtraRom from 75nm in the 3DS carts to 32nm. I'm not sure exactly how that translates to actual storage capacity, but it does sound like a big shift.

 

[PdotMichael]

Where i live, an average WiiU game is $10 cheaper than the average XBO/PS4 game. So they still have a healthy margin.

I'm not even sure why you are quoting my post.

 

[_PsiFire_]

So then how am I supposed to buy a game once and play it on either device like Nintendo have said they want people to be able to.

I don't think there's any way to rule out a shared physical media (game cards) without also ruling out a shared library (one of the very few things Nintendo have said about the NX).

Nintendo NEVER said shared library in the way you're thinking. They said a shared platform to make their games on allowing them to easily build and share assets (models, textures even code) to be used across multiple consoles - ie the portable and handheld.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

That is factually incorrect. You can have cards just as big as BR discs now. The reason why it was a problem in the N64 days was just that: CD's could hold more data.

I'm also talking about cards. You can have the consumer pay for the difference because there is a $10 margin.

And my analysis does address the cost just fine. It's based upon the investigative work of a fellow gaffer (Terrell) who works in logistics. The cost saved by shipping and stocking cards (using smaller cases) would outweigh the cost of the actual card.



Flash =/= ROM, is it?

I never said cards couldn't get as big (if I did, feel free to quote it). And consumers paying the difference is why N64 games were generally more expensive than PS1 games. I'm well aware of the differences between flash memory and what the N64 had, but the same downsides are still present.

 

[ozfunghi]

I never said cards couldn't get as big (if I did, feel free to quote it). And consumers paying the difference is why N64 games were generally more expensive than PS1 games. I'm well aware of the differences between flash memory and what the N64 had, but the same downsides are still present.

You refered to the situation with N64. The only issue there was back then, the only disadvantage, was that the N64 cards couldn't hold as much data. And the fact that they were more expensive.

And consumers CAN pay for the difference because games on WiiU are cheaper than on PS4 (where i live at least). Meaning if they charge the same price at retail as the PS4/XBO games, you have a $10 margin which will be more than ample for covering the extra cost.

An extra cost that will likely not even happen, due to savings made in logistics.

 

[PdotMichael]

I never said cards couldn't get as big (if I did, feel free to quote it). And consumers paying the difference is why N64 games were generally more expensive than PS1 games. I'm well aware of the differences between flash memory and what the N64 had, but the same downsides are still present.

Love how many extra miles some people go to justify sd cards.

Printing a BD takes less than $1. The idea that shipping them would add several dollars more than shipping Nintendo game cards sized NX cards is crazy at best.

 

[Roshin]

man, if they use cartridges for the NX that would be epic

I guess the emulator people would love the roms.

 

[Sectorseven]

I don't know why people are so quick to usher in the era of SD cards. They aren't really any more or less practical than a disc and take virtually the same shelf space, except you're more likely to lose them and require a microscope to admire the artwork.

It's not like back in the day when you got a decent size cart with a nice label in a solid clamshell box (or crappy paper box for Nintendo games) with a manual. Opening it was part of the experience. These days it's just a vessel and opening the case to reveal a dinky card with no manual feels utilitarian at best.

 

[MacTag]

For the handheld.

Not for the console.

Won't work if both devices are the same platform. You don't want split media in that scenario.

That sounds like the thinking that went into Nintendo's decision to use cartridges on N64 and then still using a small disc on GameCube.

Scale matters. Going from 16MB to 512MB or 1.5GB to 4.5GB isn't nearly the same thing as 32GB to 50GB. And really we may end up seeing 64GB+ anyway, it all depends on production cost and technology timelines.

Besides which, it's not like most games demand 50GB today either. How many games in your Steam library are over 32GB for example?

Technically the max is 8GB, though no game ever used it. Probably more because it's massive overkill for a handheld with a 240p screen than because of cost. The few games that used 4GB carts didn't come close to filling it up.
It's pretty usual to get an 8x increase in cart sizes between generations.

Right and not only that but during the generation we tend to see size jumps. Looking at previous systems using Nintendo Game Card media might give us a good idea. These are the maximums used at retail by year.

DS 2004 : 32MB
DS 2005 : 64MB
DS 2006 : 128MB
DS 2007 : 256MB
DS 2010 : 512MB
3DS 2011 : 2GB
3DS 2012 : 4GB