I wouldn't look that much into it.
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Wired: Hardcore Console Gamers Dont Want Much, Just the Impossible
- Thread starter Piper Az
- Start date
I wouldn't look that much into it.
NullPointer
Member
CassidyIzABeast
Member
How is the Xbox One not focused on games?
they are spinning, they aren't truth seekers. look at the ads in the magazine if you want to know why. edit: and they are desperately trying to stay profitable, print is dying unless your target demo is over 60.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
If wanting to let my friends borrow my retail games and wanting to be able to play those games when my internet goes down is "impossible" then everyone at Microsoft is fucking incompetent. I've been able to do all of those things on every console I've had in the past 18 years of playing video games.
I didn't like all of the TV stuff and its completely useless to me, but at the end of the day that's all just fluff around what I really would have been interested in anyway. I think it was stupid for Microsoft to focus so heavily on that stuff during the reveal, but E3 is just a few weeks away. I can deal with a disappointing first showing.
What I can't deal with is some assholes telling me I can't let my friends borrow physical media that I paid with with my hard earned cash. I can't deal with my console being a useless brick as soon as my internet goes down for a couple days. There is no logical reason for these practices to exist outside of greed.
There are other avenues I can get my gaming fix from. Sure I'll miss some exclusives that might be good, but I don't care enough about those games to the point where I'm comfortable letting a company limit when I can play them. I wouldn't buy a book I can't read anytime. I wouldn't buy a
DVD that I couldn't watch anytime. And I'm not buying video games that I can't play anytime. I have other hobbies and have missed out on enough well reguarded games that I can go back to that I don't need any console that does this.
I didn't like all of the TV stuff and its completely useless to me, but at the end of the day that's all just fluff around what I really would have been interested in anyway. I think it was stupid for Microsoft to focus so heavily on that stuff during the reveal, but E3 is just a few weeks away. I can deal with a disappointing first showing.
What I can't deal with is some assholes telling me I can't let my friends borrow physical media that I paid with with my hard earned cash. I can't deal with my console being a useless brick as soon as my internet goes down for a couple days. There is no logical reason for these practices to exist outside of greed.
There are other avenues I can get my gaming fix from. Sure I'll miss some exclusives that might be good, but I don't care enough about those games to the point where I'm comfortable letting a company limit when I can play them. I wouldn't buy a book I can't read anytime. I wouldn't buy a
DVD that I couldn't watch anytime. And I'm not buying video games that I can't play anytime. I have other hobbies and have missed out on enough well reguarded games that I can go back to that I don't need any console that does this.
Games? Who cares? They are just another service now. You should be more excited about being able to hook your Xbox up to your cable box, so that you can watch the TV you already have with voice command! For a subscription on top of your cable/satellite subscription of course.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
All I want is to play games and watch BR movies on my console. That's it.
All that other crap like Kinect/PSEYE, Nexflix, itunes or whatever the hell I don't care about. I have a TV and computer for that stuff.
All that other crap like Kinect/PSEYE, Nexflix, itunes or whatever the hell I don't care about. I have a TV and computer for that stuff.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
The smart device market just soaked up so many casuals that the market to sustain these uber consoles / AAAA budget games is drying up.
It's a bit of a painful shift at the moment but it needed to be done, if a game comes out looking hot, and selling well, they will make money on it, but that will be fewer and fewer games. Chasing the graphics finally started showing its drawbacks this gen.
I can't speak for everyone but if a game catches me it catches me, the older psx era 3d stuff is a bit painful to work with now just because of controls / warping etc of early 3d, but aside from that I can go from something like dwarf fortress, to The Witcher 2, and find fun in them even though they are vastly different. Maybe this gen will see a shift of some dev's taking more risky / indier style games, even if they don't push graphics/budgets anymore.
It's a bit of a painful shift at the moment but it needed to be done, if a game comes out looking hot, and selling well, they will make money on it, but that will be fewer and fewer games. Chasing the graphics finally started showing its drawbacks this gen.
I can't speak for everyone but if a game catches me it catches me, the older psx era 3d stuff is a bit painful to work with now just because of controls / warping etc of early 3d, but aside from that I can go from something like dwarf fortress, to The Witcher 2, and find fun in them even though they are vastly different. Maybe this gen will see a shift of some dev's taking more risky / indier style games, even if they don't push graphics/budgets anymore.
SneakyStephan
Banned
This is about the hundredth confirmation this year that the gaming press are not respresenting the gamer and are in the pockets of the industry.
This is why I use gaf, so I can get my info (including the PR breadcrumbs like screenshots and trailers) without ever having to give any of these shills a single click worth of ad revenue.
This is why I use gaf, so I can get my info (including the PR breadcrumbs like screenshots and trailers) without ever having to give any of these shills a single click worth of ad revenue.
This article is missing the point. What was bad about the conference wasn't that Xbox One is going to have a lot of different functions besides games.
What was bad was how ashamed they were to be in gaming. The console doesn't look like a console. The games are only the most mainstream type - COD, sports and realistic racing. Halo is now a TV show, and Quantum Break is a game with a TV tie-in. It's a total regression of the medium. Instead of saying confidently that gaming of all types is now a valid form of entertainment, they showed that it's inferior. They looked like a company that's making a console while hating gaming at the same time.
Gaming has nothing to be ashamed of. It's a multi-billion dollar industry that can accommodate many tastes, from CoD to Skyrim, from GTA to Mario Kart, from Final Fantasy to Madden. There is nothing wrong in making a console that is proud to be a machine for games.
What was bad was how ashamed they were to be in gaming. The console doesn't look like a console. The games are only the most mainstream type - COD, sports and realistic racing. Halo is now a TV show, and Quantum Break is a game with a TV tie-in. It's a total regression of the medium. Instead of saying confidently that gaming of all types is now a valid form of entertainment, they showed that it's inferior. They looked like a company that's making a console while hating gaming at the same time.
Gaming has nothing to be ashamed of. It's a multi-billion dollar industry that can accommodate many tastes, from CoD to Skyrim, from GTA to Mario Kart, from Final Fantasy to Madden. There is nothing wrong in making a console that is proud to be a machine for games.
I feel like Im in the middle.
I do not want a games only device.
I want games, blu-ray, video support, music, a good browser, open app system and my countries on demand TV services. Live TV? Not so much.
oh PLEASE. What does this even mean. You want painted flames on? PS3 I think also looks like an everyday device with some style. XBOX1 has a bit of that too.
The look is not problem imo
I do not want a games only device.
I want games, blu-ray, video support, music, a good browser, open app system and my countries on demand TV services. Live TV? Not so much.
oh PLEASE. What does this even mean. You want painted flames on? PS3 I think also looks like an everyday device with some style. XBOX1 has a bit of that too.
The look is not problem imo
You just pulled the exact thought I was having right out of my head. Since the reveal, it seems there has been this PR push by some of the gaming outlets to help damage control and gloss this draconian pile of shit over with sugary sprinkles. It's disgusting. I have seen others like Jim Sterling and even Gamespot thankfully turning their noses up at some of this, though.
For some, and for me, it is just a waste of resources if you use 3 GB out of 8 for 3 OSes and so on. With the addition of all the TV features and more, you also take away potential computing power. But I think that MS or some spokesperson said that developers can turn all those extras "off" to get the raw power for games or something to that effect.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
So ashamed they've been saying their E3 conference is all about games since they announced the May 21 reveal? So ashamed the last 10 minutes of their reveal was dedicated to showcasing the next gen version of one of the biggest gaming franchises out? Cut out it man.
Let's have a thought experiment. Imagine you would have seen the X1 for the first time without the controller and without the logo. What kind of device is it?
Now do the same for PS3, Wii, 360, GC and so forth.
The looks don't matter but they are part of the whole package they are selling. They are clearly not marketing this as a games machine. And that is misguided because it's the people who want games who will stand in line and buy millions of these for $500. No one will do that for fantasy football or to switch channels by voice.
The Wii wasn't in competition with the PS3/360. They bailed out.
Wow. Just... Wow.
This just in! Journalist on website postulates about an idea on how the change in used game sales will work! Give positive spin! Internet user reads and judges person, site and affiliated works, events, and charties are wanting! Suspects entire organization of being shills, corporate mouthpieces and aplogists! Reacts accordingly!
I don't think hardcore gamers were upset with the multimedia aspects of the console, but rather the focus on TV and other media features in their reveal. The people who are most interested in these features are not really the people who are going to buy it at launch. We're talking a $400/$500 console here. The mass market is not going to shell out that kind of money for live TV and a fancy hand waving device. They have a TV, they have a cable box.
They should be appeasing the hardcore gamer, not some imaginary consumer who is willing to spend that kind of money on a fancy cable box. Show that stuff, by all means, but don't make it the focus of your conference.
That had nothing to do with the market at large. The problems both Sony and Microsoft faced were entirely of their own doing. Sony invested heavily in a proprietary processor (CELL) and added with it a very expensive Blu-ray drive. Microsoft chose to rush their console to market with design defects. Both proved costly.
They should be appeasing the hardcore gamer, not some imaginary consumer who is willing to spend that kind of money on a fancy cable box. Show that stuff, by all means, but don't make it the focus of your conference.
That had nothing to do with the market at large. The problems both Sony and Microsoft faced were entirely of their own doing. Sony invested heavily in a proprietary processor (CELL) and added with it a very expensive Blu-ray drive. Microsoft chose to rush their console to market with design defects. Both proved costly.
Tylahedras
Banned
As they should. FUCK PA.
I think Wired is probably embarrassed at how enthusiastically they sucked off MS in that exclusive X1 preview. Now that the whole world isn't over the moon with excitement they need an explanation.
lucius
Member
It still called a game console, they underestimate that it's just hardcore that want it mostly for that. Wired is terrible anyway, Microsoft is definitely every US magazine/websites wet dream when it comes to ad revenue. Seems like many of them are already making excuses for XboxOne. That's why eventually they will be the only place to go for console gaming at some point at least until some other behemoth like Google, Apple, Samsung or someone like that with billions to spend on marketing gets into it. 360 is a great game console, and Xbox One still should be a great at games, but fact is it would be an even better game console without that shift towards all that crap, does not need to waste so much resources on those things.
DragonSworne
Banned
Okay! Sign me up for PAX East now! I was totally being unreasonable!
I see someone is playing into the hand of corporations quite easily.
Some of us have disposable income and can afford a $400/$500 piece of hardware without going into a rage about it's media features. Casual crowd I've spoken to have no problem with the features and are kind of excited about some of the possibilities.
It's so weird seeing people have such a knee jerk reaction to this. MS is putting out a decent piece of hardware, is it perfect hells no but I will be there day 1 just like I will be for the PS4 because I enjoy gaming and don't have loyalty to any platform. You know what I like to do? Play video games regardless of their platform.
Both banked heavily on features that appealed to the hardcore and it failed to give good returns. The margins for the current gen machines are so bad that MS and Sony don't reduce the price anymore.
At the same time, other electronics manufacturers are selling their products at high prices with good margins instead of taking a loss. The software side is changing too, all growth areas exept some on the PC are driven by demographics outside of the core gamer.
The days of highly capable hardware, sold at a loss, focused only on "the gamer" are gone. It is not sustainable to do so if you want any kind of growth or a decent ROI.
The only console that made boatloads was the WII, a console the core demographic hated.
I agree that Microsoft has handled their press conference very poorly, i agree their anti consumer practices may cost them a lot of sales. But i'm pretty sure the PS4 is almost as capable a media machine as the XBONE and it has to be. Oh, and neither will lack games.
Which is a point completely missed it seems. Sony is providing similar features. It will have the apps, movies and music just like the Xbox One. The difference is simply the message. Sony were more gamer-focused in their conference because they understand that is the audience they must reach. These are the people who are willing to spend that kind of money for a console at launch.
JordanN
Banned
The way I see it is, consoles should be targeting the highest performance possible. If they match a PC, that would be great. If not, it's not a big loss.
However, I despise comments where the goal is not to have a powerful box by any means. Enough time has passed since PS3/360 have been on the market. It really shouldn't be hard to put together something that is 8 or 10x better and make a profit from it.
TheLaughingStock
Member
The author makes a baseless assertion (to me) that gamers wanted bleeding edge tech that subsequently lead to billions of dollars in losses manufacturing components. And I'm confused whether he's saying hi-end machines are dead going forward or if he's trying to imply in a roundabout way that Microsoft's strategy will lead to the most popular and the most profitable gaming console? He could've saved some time.
uuaschbaer
Banned
Someone clearly needs to practice making omelets.
So that's why devices like iPhones are getting more and more popular while dedicated handheld gaming devices are going the other way...
Some people can. I think the question is exactly how many people are willing to fork out that kind of money for a fancy cable box? Something tells me that the market for over-expensive cable boxes is quite small.
And it's not simply a knee jerk reaction on my part, it's just common sense. If your focus on entertainment isn't to do with games, why would you spend so much on a box that doesn't really provide anything you can't already get?
This doesn't escape the fact that both Sony and Microsoft fucked up badly with their hardware at the time of launch. Sony's machine was ridiculously expensive to produce and Microsoft's machine was a manufacturing nightmare.
Sony sold the PS1 and PS2 at a loss too. This was not something unique to this gen. The truth is, the way the current climate is, it probably is no longer sustainable to keep producing consoles at a loss, but as I mentioned, the PS3 and 360 both had problems that were not entirely to do with the market itself.
alexandros
Banned
In the near future it is my hope and belief that the PC (and PC-ish devices like the Steambox) will be the defacto home of the core gamer.
Then we mostly agree. The consoles had a lot of issues that were the manufacturers fault but especially the 360 had those issues solved at some point. It still took a long time until it was profitable. And MS charges for MP!
It's just that there is this narrative that the core focused approach brought MS and Sony huge profits when it really didn't. The reason the XBONE presentation sucked wasn't because it was overly aimed at casuals but because what they showed is really not exiting. There weren't any big innovations besides Kinect 2.0 (and we don't know if those will translate to something compelling).
With context to the Wired article, people are raging against the premise because it's targeting casuals who don't exist. Why would anyone ditch their roku and tablet? And worse, why spend 500 dollars to do something that's visibly inferior. If you want to multi-task while watching TV, nothing beats the tablet you already own. This is just a different spin on what Nintendo was doing with Wii U. Addressing a problem that doesn't exist with a solution nobody needs. And even if it's a mild bonus, nobody but the hardcore crowd is paying 500 dollars for the device.
One thing I strongly believe in, is that Sony needs to get their sharing/streaming implementation right. They absolutely need to support Twitch. Twitch is a massive and ever growing market. In February, they reported 28 million unique viewers, with an average view time of 1.5 hours per day. Currently this space is PC dominated but Sony can get some serious exposure if they execute properly.
This is the direction the core gamer market is headed, and this market absolutely bleeds into the casual gaming crowd. Streaming, Let's Plays...you can attribute much of Minecraft's success to social gaming and media sharing.
We haven't heard from Microsoft yet regarding such features. I think they're making a hueg blunder if they decide to not properly support this avenue of social gaming.
This is the direction the core gamer market is headed, and this market absolutely bleeds into the casual gaming crowd. Streaming, Let's Plays...you can attribute much of Minecraft's success to social gaming and media sharing.
We haven't heard from Microsoft yet regarding such features. I think they're making a hueg blunder if they decide to not properly support this avenue of social gaming.
Jokes and Riddles
Neo Member
Apparently selling more units, and making more money is bailing out.
Microsoft engineers guessed 8 gigs of gddr would not be feasible so they went with 8 gigs of ddr3. This backfired on Microsoft.
MS thought PS4 4 gigs of gddr5 and about 1gigs for the OS.
Xbone 8 gigs of ddr3 with 3gigs for OS and TV features. Xbone would have a lower power GPU because of the needed embedded memory but would would have a 2 gig advantage with memory.
MS engineers gave bad advice with what was possible with gddr5. Simple as that.
MS thought PS4 4 gigs of gddr5 and about 1gigs for the OS.
Xbone 8 gigs of ddr3 with 3gigs for OS and TV features. Xbone would have a lower power GPU because of the needed embedded memory but would would have a 2 gig advantage with memory.
MS engineers gave bad advice with what was possible with gddr5. Simple as that.
I will point out though that Microsoft lost billions because of the RROD issue. They had to extend the warranty for all consoles to over 3 years, and it's not really clear when the problem was actually solved. It cost Microsoft a lot of money.
And as I said about the PS3, it was ridiculously expensive at launch, and is understandable that cost didn't go down as much as they would have liked.
What's really just sad to the point it's almost hilarious is just how off the "mainstream" seems to be from the realities of their so-called hobby. This mainstream of course seems to also consist of either industry shareholders who think actually playing games is for children and manchildren but love that they can make money investing in it (See: Michael Patcher, virtually every gaming publisher/conglomerate/press CEO), and people who think that because they and everyone else used to play Angry Birds and Words With Friends and draw something but only a relatively much smaller subset of people play/are interested in "hardcore" games, that that's the future of the industry and it's time to abandon ship or embrace iDevice shallow gaming experiences. And then there's guys like PA who unless you're totally oblivious have basically been in Microsoft's pockets ever since they were invited for a private tour/hangout with MS/Bungie post their "LOL XBawks controler is hueg!" comics.
I'd go on about what the real problem is, but it's pretty much been covered:
I feel like ranting anyway: The industry got so up its own ass about "We're movies now! Stars and multimillion dollar budgets and formulaic "blockbuster" experiences all around! It's also cool now so we can get everyone in the world to play! It should be easy to sell record-breaking amounts of games each year!" that they lost sight of the foundation of their market: the supposedly "hardcore" gamers. You know, the ones who while they aren't the majority of the consumers, are the ones that define the core of what the market is. These gamers don't want the impossible, they just want steady progress/noticeable improvements, and deep involving experiences, which you can have without going AAA but takes effort, and risk on new ideas which the industry is scared shitless of. It's why it seems we're seeing the real rise of indie games taking over the sub-AAA market that's been abandoned since the industry tried making the same bland AAA games just with lower budgets and wondered why it wasn't working (and why as soon as a new IP has real success it's run into the ground as quickly as possible *cough*DeadSpace*cough*). There are plenty of amazing games with small budgets making their creators very rich, but no, unless it sells 6 million copies in the first month, gets above a 92 metacritic score, and is "culturally relevant" enough to have a superbowl commercial, it's a failure.
And that's the problem: this idea that unless a game or console appeals and sells to people who would never have bought a NES or SNES if they were around for them or would only have bought a PS2 as a DVD player, it's a failure. And that's the market that XBone seems to be going for: "We've got a great living-room experience which is going to change the way you watch sports and TV and hook into all your social media life! And it lets you browse the web at the same time and use all your favorite mobile apps! Oh yeah, it also does games too, don't worry, we kept that in, we had to after all, it's a game console. But even better than games we took your favorite game and made it a TV show and payed a famous movie director probably crazy money to do it!" Despite what people (including several posters and a surprising amount of the gaming press) claim, the games industry can't survive by slowly abandon gaming. Because that's not "evolving" the business, it's just shifting your business to an existing one that Apple and Google currently own the mindshare of.
What the industry needs to do is shrink it's insane bloat, in size, budget, and expectations. There's plenty of profit to be made, just stop thinking you're going to beat out the oil industry. Gaming is on the wane in mainstream, it was sort of a fad there, and while it will never go away there's not going to be another Wii like phenomenon just by copying what everyone else is doing. Publishers/developers need to stop going all out on budgets for graphics and celebrity and licensed properties and especially marketing to the point where they need the game to be the best selling game of all time just to recoup their investment in it. They need to scale things back, really focus on the gameplay aspects and just general polish so they can still provide high quality experiences, take risks, learn, and evolve the medium. And most importantly, console makers need to focus on the core gaming experience (some bells and whistles are nice but they should NOT be what sells your console) and understand a few things: Sans the PC elite who are always going to harp on you for not being as master-race as them, gamers want something noticeably better than what they had (Matching mid-high tier PC level graphics (aka not quad-SLI Titans, think best single GPU card at the time of prototype manufacture) at 1080p 60fps as a really good baseline), with none of the hassles of PC gaming (shouldn't need to install/worry about license keys or hardware compatibility or settings sliders or day 1 bug patches) for a fair price (say $400 at launch). They do not want half-baked control schemes (original Kinect), to be treated like criminals for thinking that when they purchase a game they own it, or when they're eagerly awaiting the first impression of your console after a fairly successful reveal of a competitor's, for you to go on about owning the living room.
I'd go on about what the real problem is, but it's pretty much been covered:
I feel like ranting anyway: The industry got so up its own ass about "We're movies now! Stars and multimillion dollar budgets and formulaic "blockbuster" experiences all around! It's also cool now so we can get everyone in the world to play! It should be easy to sell record-breaking amounts of games each year!" that they lost sight of the foundation of their market: the supposedly "hardcore" gamers. You know, the ones who while they aren't the majority of the consumers, are the ones that define the core of what the market is. These gamers don't want the impossible, they just want steady progress/noticeable improvements, and deep involving experiences, which you can have without going AAA but takes effort, and risk on new ideas which the industry is scared shitless of. It's why it seems we're seeing the real rise of indie games taking over the sub-AAA market that's been abandoned since the industry tried making the same bland AAA games just with lower budgets and wondered why it wasn't working (and why as soon as a new IP has real success it's run into the ground as quickly as possible *cough*DeadSpace*cough*). There are plenty of amazing games with small budgets making their creators very rich, but no, unless it sells 6 million copies in the first month, gets above a 92 metacritic score, and is "culturally relevant" enough to have a superbowl commercial, it's a failure.
And that's the problem: this idea that unless a game or console appeals and sells to people who would never have bought a NES or SNES if they were around for them or would only have bought a PS2 as a DVD player, it's a failure. And that's the market that XBone seems to be going for: "We've got a great living-room experience which is going to change the way you watch sports and TV and hook into all your social media life! And it lets you browse the web at the same time and use all your favorite mobile apps! Oh yeah, it also does games too, don't worry, we kept that in, we had to after all, it's a game console. But even better than games we took your favorite game and made it a TV show and payed a famous movie director probably crazy money to do it!" Despite what people (including several posters and a surprising amount of the gaming press) claim, the games industry can't survive by slowly abandon gaming. Because that's not "evolving" the business, it's just shifting your business to an existing one that Apple and Google currently own the mindshare of.
What the industry needs to do is shrink it's insane bloat, in size, budget, and expectations. There's plenty of profit to be made, just stop thinking you're going to beat out the oil industry. Gaming is on the wane in mainstream, it was sort of a fad there, and while it will never go away there's not going to be another Wii like phenomenon just by copying what everyone else is doing. Publishers/developers need to stop going all out on budgets for graphics and celebrity and licensed properties and especially marketing to the point where they need the game to be the best selling game of all time just to recoup their investment in it. They need to scale things back, really focus on the gameplay aspects and just general polish so they can still provide high quality experiences, take risks, learn, and evolve the medium. And most importantly, console makers need to focus on the core gaming experience (some bells and whistles are nice but they should NOT be what sells your console) and understand a few things: Sans the PC elite who are always going to harp on you for not being as master-race as them, gamers want something noticeably better than what they had (Matching mid-high tier PC level graphics (aka not quad-SLI Titans, think best single GPU card at the time of prototype manufacture) at 1080p 60fps as a really good baseline), with none of the hassles of PC gaming (shouldn't need to install/worry about license keys or hardware compatibility or settings sliders or day 1 bug patches) for a fair price (say $400 at launch). They do not want half-baked control schemes (original Kinect), to be treated like criminals for thinking that when they purchase a game they own it, or when they're eagerly awaiting the first impression of your console after a fairly successful reveal of a competitor's, for you to go on about owning the living room.
I definitely agree with you.
Hey, bravo, man. I agree. I'd be thinking about the time I have to take off to do my usual camp out for the new systems. Instead, last night I google searched the A51 gaming PC to see what it was all about.
DragonSworne
Banned
Kobun Heat
Member
Hi!
So while I obviously can't respond to each and every post here, this seems to be the common thread: It's not impossible, because Sony's doing it. Yes, and as I said, losing an asston of money in the process. How long can that really go on? How much different is PlayStation 4 from PlayStation 3, philosophically? Embracing indie developers might actually be a big win if it causes PS4 to explode with content vs. Xbone and if players buy them en masse, but that sounds like a big, big if.
Also as stated in the piece, I think things like always-online, used games, etc. are absolutely legitimate issues that need to be discussed and dealt with. This is specifically addressing the idea that Microsoft has gotten it all wrong by attempting to broaden the appeal of Xbox beyond the core. Which is a separate argument that was definitely made a lot on Tuesday.