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With Wii U all but dead now: What had the better life, The Dreamcast or Wii U?

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
There's a huge difference in the way the end of these two consoles died/are dying which is quite telling.

The end of the Dreamcast was announced to the shock and outcry of fans across the globe, with an extremely short lifespan and an already huge list of diverse AAA games that are still looked upon fondly today.

The end of the WiiU was announced to the relief of fans across the globe, with a dreadfully longer lifespan than most were expecting/hoping (2017 instead of 2016) and AAA games just trickling in at the end of its life, most of which will not be remembered except as NX games I think (Zelda U will be an NX launch title, so WiiU won't be remembered for a proper Zelda release that wasn't just an HD remake)

Dreamcast had nothing to overshadow it as it was Segas last console. WiiU will be overshadowed by the NX, as it will likely play the best WiiU games at higher fidelity and then some.

WiiU will be more of a turbo graphics 64 offering I think, that few will remember, because everything it offers will be available elsewhere. Bayonetta2, Xeno, and Splatoon were the most of what it offered. NX will have mario and smash and Zelda in all of their iterations so none of the old will be needed.

WiiU has no answer to Shenmu, Virtua Fighter, and countless other offerings Dreamcast had in its short lifespan.

I don't think Dreamcast's demise was a shock to anyone. First off we're talking Sega, who was known to kill hardware off like a Game of Throne's character. Secondly the system was dead in Japan, and support was drying up from every third party that was worth anything.

Plus the system was being blown out at clearance prices already.

The Wii U had no answer for a shoddy VF3 port? It has Tekken Tag Tournament 2, which I would take over VF3 any day.

No answer for Shenmue? Who cares? What does Dreamcast have to answer Batman Arkham City? Darksiders 2? Call of Duty Black Ops 2? How about Monster Hunter 3? Sonic All Stars Racing Transformed? Starfox Zero?

Wii U has better Sonic games then Dreamcast. We know it won't have anything that could possibly compare to the upcoming Zelda.

I just don't think there's a real comparison here.
 
The amount people are willing to pay does define a game's worth though. If people aren't willing to pay for it, then it's not worth that much, even if the seller is asking for the amount. I could put up a game on Steam and list it for $1000.

Well, those VC games actually sell, so they must be worth it.

And for your information, Nintendo does care about value, otherwise they'd have already flooded mobile platforms with their warez.

Good job on the ridiculous $1000 amount. That's another classic debate strategy ("reductio ad absurdum", look it up if you didn't know it) for when you're losing a debate on sound arguments.

Specs aren't irrelevant. Along with access to new games, they're pretty much the driving factor in purchasing a new console. The Dreamcast didn't need developers to get the most out of it, in order for the specs to be meaningful... it was so much more powerful than the PS1/N64 that it didn't even matter. Even wonky ports like Virtua Fighter 3tb were far beyond the capabilities of the other consoles (and why VF3 never hit the Saturn as originally intended). Plus, it's not like the graphical offerings on the console didn't improve over time anyway. Dead or Alive 2, Shenmue and Metropolis Street Racer provided noticeable jumps later in the console's short life. So, this is simply you "downplaying" the worth of great hardware, because it doesn't favor the console you're pushing.

And then about half way (a mere 1.5 - 2 year) in its life cycle the PS2 happened and all of a sudden that great hardware suddenly wasn't good enough to compete anymore, lol. Which demonstrates how relevant specs really are: really not that friggin' important.

I'm not downplaying anything. The Wii showed that graphical prowess isn't important to sell consoles. The Game Gear was also far superior to the Game Boy. A good graphics card only gets you so far, and in case of the Dreamcast, that wasn't very far, because sales wise, it was a disaster. So much for all those great specs that still seem to give you a boner thinking back at them.

You may have intended for those questions to be rhetorical... but they really aren't. I already listed 2 games that were compromised at the gameplay level as a result of requiring higher specs. Games can definitely be better on more powerful hardware... that doesn't mean a different game can't be just as good on weaker hardware, but that doesn't hold true for every game. What Gran Turismo5 does, could not have been done on a PS2. Project Cars for Wii U was canned because they couldn't get it to run appreciably (the XB1 barely handles it). Crysis certainly isn't happening on anything in Gen 6... It's true that additional specs are mostly used for better looking games nowadays, but there are exceptions.. and there are games where the better graphics are core to the gameplay, such as the previously mentioned GT5, or something like Doom 3. Moreover, this certainly wasn't the case back when the Dreamcast arrived, where stuff like Virtua Fighter 3's undulation, and the physics based animation it required made porting to a previous gen console basically impossible... not to mention the shit that later appeared in Dead or Alive 2's stages. Gran Theft Auto 3 hadn't even happened yet.. and you're trying to push the idea that the specs of the consoles weren't affecting the quality of the games?

You said it right, there are exceptions. And you did a good job digging up a few. Congrats.

The general rule is though that better specs don't necessarily make better games.

The PS3, the most powerful console of last gen, (and all of its crippled ports of multiplat games) is a testament to how failed your argument really is.

So yea... more powerful hardware does sometimes make a game better. Especially in comparison to the same game running on weaker hardware. If the Wii U were more powerful, it'd likely have a better line-up of games, because porting to it wouldn't be such a huge undertaking, that resulted in the game being a shadow of its former self.

I don't even...

Are you sure you own a Wii U? Have you played some of Nintendo's first party outings? Where your glasses dirty while you were playing? Do you really believe it's not possible to create great looking games for the system?
 

Eusis

Member
I would say the dreamcast but that's partly due to nostalgia
I think it's also that the DC made a large splash with a lot of great game fast, while the Wii U's come off as a slow burn.

Wii U came out better I'd think, but not by all that much. Mainly just by being around for roughly a full generation so that it developed a large, diverse library, had it been retired as fast as the Dreamcast rather than Nintendo hanging on it'd have definitely come out worse, or if it came out ahead it'd be purely down to the strength of some key Nintendo titles like Smash Bros coming at the end of its life.
 

Snaggle

Banned
I didn't say that, but I'm not going to repeat what I said a couple of pages back. Feel free to go read the rest though.

The question in this thread is how the DCs and the Wii U's life spans compare. So I'm not sure why you look at the Wii...? And even if you do, previous Wii owners will find value in the Wii U, because they can actually replay their games, unlike Saturn owners with a DC.

However, for people who didn't own a Wii, which is 7 billion people worldwide minus 100 million Wii owners... those people have the entire Wii library at their disposal on top of the Wii U library during the Wii U's lifespan. And on top of that they have all those VC games.

DC owners have/had... 30-something great DC games, if we're being generous.

Also, as it turns out (looking at the install bases of both consoles) both Wii U and DC turned out to be ONLY for "super enthusiasts".

This is a cop out, you don't judge a console on games that were not made for it. By your reasoning the 60gb Ps3 is the best console ever when it's really the Ps2. You're also saying it would be ok for a company to release a console nowadays with nothing but backwards compatibility and no games designed specifically for it..Lol. I'm not sure where you're getting the reasoning for your arguments but it sounds like you are desperately clutching at straws trying to bolster the Wii U's library with games that have had their time.
 
This is a cop out, you don't judge a console on games that were not made for it. By your reasoning the 60gb Ps3 is the best console ever when it's really the Ps2. You're also saying it would be ok for a company to release a console nowadays with nothing but backwards compatibility and no games designed specifically for it..Lol. I'm not sure where you're getting the reasoning for your arguments but it sounds like you are desperately clutching at straws trying to bolster the Wii U's library with games that have had their time.

Yeah, only I didn't say that. Congrats on the reductio ad absurdum.

But to play along with your silliness. Companies actually do that. The RetroN 5 has no games designed specifically for it.

But what you're doing (i.e. ignoring alltogether that all of those Wii and VC games are actually available for the Wii U) is completely senseless. Because those games are there for all to play. They are an asset of the Wii U, whether you like it or not. It's not my fault that your beloved DC wasn't backwards compatible, is it?
 

Snaggle

Banned
Hey guys I'm a bum I do nothing all day and sit around on my ass gathering dust but my dad he was a millionaire, he worked hard and became really successful, when he died I inherited everything he had. I'm still sitting around my ass but by the logic displayed in this thread I'm actually better than my dad ever was because I inherited everything he had along with the dust I managed to collect on my own. w00t! Number 1 bitches!

Hey you don't need me to tell you which is better.....do a tally of the posts in this thread and DC will come out on top. Done and dusted mate.
 

GoDLiKe

Member
Dreamcast, for sure. I really like my WiiU but its library doesn't come close to the one from the latest SEGA console.
 
Hey guys I'm a bum I do nothing all day and sit around on my ass gathering dust but my dad he was a millionaire, he worked hard and became really successful, when he died I inherited everything he had. I'm still sitting around my ass but by the logic displayed in this thread I'm actually better than my dad ever was because I inherited everything he had along with the dust I managed to collect on my own. w00t! Number 1 bitches!

More poorly formulated gibberish...

Hey you don't need me to tell you which is better.....do a tally of the posts in this thread and DC will come out on top. Done and dusted mate.

Wow, you got me there. Strongest. Argument. Ever.
Yep, you win! Most definitely. It's not even close.
Congrats, duder! When's your next signing session?
 

Synth

Member
Are you sure you own a Wii U?

Ha!... ok let's get this nonsense out of the way first.

Wii%20U_zpsa48wq2el.jpg
yea, it doesn't see much action

I'm not saying you can't make good looking games for the Wii U. I am saying that porting down to it from the other next gen platforms is likely a bitch though due to its comparatively weak specs.. and there are some games that simply won't port well at all... they'd be worse games as a result of the lower spec.

The VC games must be worth that amount to some people yea. Not to me though... that's why its subjective. My substituted example is an exaggeration, sure... but it holds true by your logic (it isn't the fallacy you're citing). If the person setting the price alone determines something's value.. then anything I create is worth whatever I say it is. This isn't the case though. What it's worth is down to an agreement of both the seller and the buyer. What the seller is willing to part with it for, and what the buyer is willing to buy it for. This value isn't always constant, even when the item in question is. That's why we have sales for example, where sellers attempt to reach customer that don't feel their product was worth the previous asking price. Or games that suddenly cost multiples of what they released for.

I'd just like to state here btw, that I'm happy to see that you're now comfortable with the idea of dragging in other platforms to illustrate your point. Though the chosen examples are pretty poor imo.

The PS2 having significantly better spec than the Dreamcast was a pretty big factor in many people waiting it out for its releases instead of buying a DC. The PS3's relative comparability to the Xbox 360 (but a year later) had the opposite effect of causing many people to simply buy a 360 instead. The Wii proves that specs don't matter? Does that mean you're also willing to accept evidence that the Wii U and Vita/Vita TV prove that shitloads of old classics also don't matter? I mean, the Wii U is behind the competition by a large-ass margin, and the order of the consoles' positions in the market right now are inversely proportional to how compatible they are with previous generations of software. So I guess we can wrap this up right now then, right? :p
 

Snaggle

Banned
More poorly formulated gibberish...



Wow, you got me there. Strongest. Argument. Ever.
Yep, you win! Most definitely. It's not even close.
Congrats, duder! When's your next signing session?

Oops silly me for using facts and popular opinion to back my logic, my bad.
 

GamerSoul

Member
I'd say the dreamcast because it had some solid support. It also felt like companies were believing the dream. Lol. WiiU on the other hand had Platinum games and its first party offerings. Imo the support was never there. There was never a dream...just a tablet. :/
 
I'd just like to state here btw, that I'm happy to see that you're now comfortable with the idea of dragging in other platforms to illustrate your point. Though the chosen examples are pretty poor imo.

No, you still don't get it.

I mentioned the PS2 to illustrate how the DCs specs ultimately don't matter.

I don't drag in the PS2 (or any other platform for that matter) to compare the DC with the Wii U.

The PS2 having significantly better spec than the Dreamcast was a pretty big factor in many people waiting it out for its releases instead of buying a DC. The PS3's relative comparability to the Xbox 360 (but a year later) had the opposite effect of causing many people to simply buy a 360 instead.

So basically you agree: specs ultimately are really not all that important, because it could go one way or the other...

The Wii was mocked for being 2 GameCube duct taped together. And then it sold 100 million+ copies. That is how important specs really are. (Hint: not that important.)

The Wii proves that specs don't matter? Does that mean you're also willing to accept evidence that the Wii U and Vita/Vita TV prove that shitloads of old classics also don't matter? I mean, the Wii U is behind the competition by a large-ass margin, and the order of the consoles' positions in the market right now are inversely proportional to how compatible they are with previous generations of software. So I guess we can wrap this up right now then, right? :p

No, because software does matter. The reasons for the Wii U's and Vita's failures aren't down to the specs or the software though. Well, not initially they aren't.

The Vita has a lot of problems (initially too pricey vs 3DS, the rise of mobile phone gaming and shrinking of their market compared to DS/PSP era, ridiculously overpriced proprietary memory cards, ...). Similarly, the Wii U was marketed terribly for starters. People are still confused about what it is and what it can do even today. The horde of casual gamers who bought the Wii don't really need another console, and the use of the Wii U is just way less intuitive to them then the Wii (where they and their families could play tennis with the Wiimote).

I said initially, because when as a console vendor you don't get a large enough install base in the first year or so after launch, 3rd party developers and publishers will more and more avoid your platform. And then you do get a "software problem". That doesn't necessarily lead to disaster though. The GameCube hardly had any 3rd party support anymore after a couple of years. But ultimately it did fine, because the install base was already there.

Anyway, all of this is quite off-topic really.

The question was how the DCs and the Wii Us lives compared and I will repeat what I said before: the amount of quality content available to Wii U owners during its lifetime (now!) is way bigger than it is to DC owners back when it wasn't dead yet. You can try to ignore Wii and VC titles all you like, but they are out there, people can play them on their Wii Us and they are part of the Wii U library. Anyone who currently buys a Wii U has a shitload of great games at their disposal. That is how the life of the Wii U currently is.

Oops silly me for using facts and popular opinion to back my logic, my bad.

Dude, you just dragged something I posted out of its context and started mocking it. "Backing your logic", lol.
Also, I don't think you understand the concept of 'popular opinion'. Fyi you don't measure that by counting posts in a single thread on a dedicated gamer forum.
Anyway, I'm not interested in discussing this any further with you, since you clearly didn't even bother reading my earlier posts.
 

GenG3000

Member
The context for each console are so different that doesn't allow for a fair comparison. At Dreamcast time, specs were enough to offer new experiences, but today it isn't. That's why I commend the Wii U's effort on approaching console gaming in a different way through the gamepad.

Leaving that aside, both were fresh machines that went full force on their respective companies' styles, betting on old school fun and color, more in the case of the Wii U when everybody was waiting for the next yearly walk'em up TPS or sandbox.

Console war is a stupid concept. They should be equally appreciated.
 

Brocken

Banned
Guys, we have to be honest here.

Dreamcast felt next gen in 1998 in every ways possible, from hardware to software, from online to some of its revolutionaries games.

Wii U in 2013 felt like a console old gen even in regard of Xbox 360 that come out in 2005. Yes, has had some good games, but we all forget this console very quikly in my opinion.
 

Castef

Banned
Overall, Dreamcast had a better and more varied library.

A better console, all around.

EDIT: also, there is half a ton more titles you could add to the Dreamcast list. :)
 
Dreamcast, especially if you're into fighting games. some good neo geo ports became finally affordable. tons of capcom fighters. virtua fighter or soul calibur.

other than that, shenmue I+II blew me away. grandia II and skies of arcadia are still top rpgs with great soundtracks. other good arcade ports.

i think i mainly own nintendo games for wiiu. bayonetta 2 is the only exception. no lan internet and no optical audio is very strange. nintendo is so cheap sometimes. you could power your dc via vga man. they had completely defferent philosophies. still playing wiiu every other week because it's a good multiplayer machine. reminds me of the 4 controllers ports of the dc, yummy.
 

Synth

Member

LOL, do you really believe what you're typing at this point?

I compare the DC software library to the Wii U software library, bring in another platform to illustrate raw game count and/or compatibility with old games doesn't really matter in regards to it being a better console. You then complain about "dragging in other platforms".
You compare DC relative specs to Wii U specs, bring in another platform to illustrate raw spec doesn't really matter in regards to it being a better console. Then you claim that THIS is the valid and right time to bring in another platform to strengthen your point. You're full of it tbh.

It should be quite clear that I don't "basically agree" with you at all by now. The specs of a console are important, even if they are not the single defining aspect of a console or its success. This applies to software as well... the software library is important, but it's also not the single defining aspect of a console's success. More importantly in regards to this conversation, simple having "more" total software doesn't mean much without context of what that software is. If one platform has GTA and another doesn't, then the 5 Pikmins doesn't matter. If one platform has Monster Hunter and another doesn't, then 5 Gravity Rushs doesn't matter... and so on. In this case if one platform has a constant stream of quality new games from both the first party and a sizeable selection of prominent third parties, and the other doesn't... then all the old SNES, N64 and Wii games don't matter. You can disagree with this, but that's just your own subjective opinion against mine. You can't claim objectivity that "specs don't matter", but "old games do". How can you even be pompous enough to even try that shit in any public environment?

This isn't off-topic. This IS the topic. The thread is comparing both consoles directly. That includes everything that made them what they were during their lives. The games, the specs (which directly influenced the games, especially back in the Dreamcast era), the price, all of it... the topic is not "which console runs the greatest number of games", because the answer to that doesn't matter, because a Super Mario World in 2016 isn't equivalent to a Shenmue in 2000. You can put whatever valuation on the old games that you like, and for you it may mean you find the Wii U to be the better console during its lifetime. I can do the same, and determine that the Dreamcast was the far better console during it's lifetime. That's one vote for you for the Wii U, and one vote for me for the Dreamcast... that's the extent of this topic. If you don't like the votes you see here, then that's too bad. You'll just have to deal with it.
 
I compare the DC software library to the Wii U software library, bring in another platform to illustrate raw game count and/or compatibility with old games doesn't really matter in regards to it being a better console. You then complain about "dragging in other platforms".

So, what are you saying? You can't play Wii and VC games on Wii U? Those games are there, man. And they're great. Your PS3 argument was pointless.

Actually, to completely counter that incredibly silly argument of yours:
- situation 1: you own a PS2 and all the great games
- situation 2: you own a PS3 and all the great games + all the great PS2 + all the great PS1 games.

Let's suppose that all circumstances are equal in your fictional world (same controller, 100% compatibility of the PS3 with PS2 and PS1, ...) In that case the PS3 is actually the better console. Because you get the exact same gaming experience AND it has more games.

But the experience isn't exactly the same, Because the PS3 isn't fully backwards compatbile to begin with. That's how silly your argument really is. That's how pointless you dragging that stuff in here exactly is.

Plus it's irrelevant when you compare Wii U vs DC. If you compared Wii U vs DC in an honest way, which you don't obviously, you would note down this:
- DC: no BC
- Wii U: BC
-> Wii U wins this one.

You compare DC relative specs to Wii U specs, bring in another platform to illustrate raw spec doesn't really matter in regards to it being a better console. Then you claim that THIS is the valid and right time to bring in another platform to strengthen your point. You're full of it tbh.

I don't compare specs. I said specs are irrelevant. You need to work on your reading skills.

It should be quite clear that I don't "basically agree" with you at all by now. The specs of a console are important, even if they are not the single defining aspect of a console or its success. This applies to software as well... the software library is important, but it's also not the single defining aspect of a console's success. More importantly in regards to this conversation, simple having "more" total software doesn't mean much without context of what that software is.

Not this again, lol. I never said "more" is important. I stressed the quality of the retro library NUMEROUS times. Learn to read. Given how much quality games the Wii backwards compatibility and the Virtual Console brings to the table, the Wii U has in total A TON more great games than the DC ever had.

So if you own a Wii U right now, during its lifetime, there is a much larger amount of great games at your disposal compared to when you owned a DC during its lifetime.

Am I speaking Chinese? How hard is this to understand?

You can't claim objectivity that "specs don't matter", but "old games do". How can you even be pompous enough to even try that shit in any public environment?

Well, there is evidence enough in video game history that specs don't matter. There is evidence in all tech that specs don't matter. Why did VHS win the tape recorder war from Betamax and Video 2000? Because specs mattered?

I brought that evidence to the table. You ignored it. In fact, you claiming the opposite is preposterous.

This isn't off-topic. This IS the topic. The thread is comparing both consoles directly.

It is, but you don't compare them directly. You drag in other platforms, lol. If you would genuinely compare them directly, you would compare each asset of the platforms against each other. NOT weigh them out vs other platforms.

That's one vote for you for the Wii U, and one vote for me for the Dreamcast... that's the extent of this topic. If you don't like the votes you see here, then that's too bad. You'll just have to deal with it.

The numbers game again, lol. You know what: I'll leave it at you being untrained in these matters and that you have no idea how measuring popular opinion really works, so I'll let this one slide. Trust me: counting votes in a single thread on a random topic on a dedicated gamer forum is NOT how you count popular opinion.
 

tanasten

glad to heard people isn't stupid anymore
WiiU has clearly much more, and the console is not finished yet, moreover if we doesn't take into account games that are not exclusive.

WiiU has a good library compared to the Dreamcast one, moreover if you take into account non exclusives and the lots of great indie games on the console. Some that I really like:

- Mario 3d World
- Mario Kart 8
- Splatoon
- Xenoblade
- NES Remix
- Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
- DKC: Tropical Freeze
- Pikmin 3
- Yoshi's Woolly World
- Bayonetta 1 & 2
- Star Fox Zero & Guard
- Captain Toad
- The Wonderful 101
- Hyrule Warriors
- Wind Waker HD
- Twilight Princess HD
- Pókken Tournament
- Art Academy (and the Awesome miiverse comunity)
- New Super Mario Bros U
- Devil's Third
- Wii Party U (to playing with friends)
- Mario PArty 10 (to playing with friends)
- NintendoLand (to playing with friends)


Great third parties games:

- Monster Hunter 3
- Deux Ex
- Rayman Legends
- Batman Arkham City
- ZombiU
- Need for Speed Most Wanted
- Mass Effect 3
- Sonic Racing Transformed
- Various Lego games
- Resident Evil Revelations
- Darksiders II
- Tekken Tag Tournament 2
- Disney Infinity
- Skylanders games
- Call of Duty: Black Ops II
- Call of Duty Ghosts
- Watch Dogs
- Assasing Creed III
- Ninja Gaiden 3
- Legend of Kay
- Sonic Lost World
- Rodea the Sky Soldier (played the Wii version xD)

Indies that I love:

- Showel Knight
- Shantae: Risky's Revenge
- Shantae And the Pirate's Curse
- The Swindle
- Guacamele
- Fast Racing Neo
. Mutant Mudds
- Star Ghost
- Affordable Space adventures
- Child of Light
- NES Remix 1 & 2
- Freedom Planet
- Runbow
- The Binding of Isaac
- Trine
- Trine 2
- Gunman Clive
- The Swapper
- Elliot Quest
- ittle Dew
- Mighty Switch Force
- Unepic
- Xeodrifter
- Octodad
- Citizens of Earth
- Teslagrad
- Toki Tory 1 & 2
- Scram Kitty and his Buddy Onrails
- Chariot
- Adventures of Pip
- Pier Solar and the Great Architects
- Stick it to the Man
- F1 Race Stars
- Minecraft
- Beatbuddy
- Puddle

And don't forget Backwards compatibility and Virtual Console.

I really don't have time to enjoy everything I got on the WiiU. So simple.
 
I don't think Dreamcast's demise was a shock to anyone. First off we're talking Sega, who was known to kill hardware off like a Game of Throne's character. Secondly the system was dead in Japan, and support was drying up from every third party that was worth anything.

Plus the system was being blown out at clearance prices already.

The Wii U had no answer for a shoddy VF3 port? It has Tekken Tag Tournament 2, which I would take over VF3 any day.

No answer for Shenmue? Who cares? What does Dreamcast have to answer Batman Arkham City? Darksiders 2? Call of Duty Black Ops 2? How about Monster Hunter 3? Sonic All Stars Racing Transformed? Starfox Zero?

Wii U has better Sonic games then Dreamcast. We know it won't have anything that could possibly compare to the upcoming Zelda.

I just don't think there's a real comparison here.
VF3 still provides more depth than most 3D fighters on the market today, including TTT2. And for that I immensely appreciate it. The way throw reversals work, Korean step, variety in attack options, the terrain system, etc. TTT2 may be the more fluid fighter but I'd hope so given it came out 16 years later. And even with that said there are things VF3 does better.

I give Tekken its chops for its style, though. It's always had that component down, and it has more depth than critics give it credit for.

You're looking for Dreamcast's answer to Arkham City when those type of games weren't even a thing during its lifetime, or even its era? And you're asking for it's answer to multiplatform games (aside from SF Zero, which isn't necessarily a hard game to beat in this context, even if it's pretty decent), so what criteria are you using to try and frame the Dreamcast's library's worth? Wouldn't you need to ask these questions to the third party developers instead of the console? Those games don't get greenlit and developed by the console.

We also know nothing about Zelda U/NX. It could be incredible, it could be average. We'll have to wait and see. But those Dreamcast classics are out there right now, and we can play them....right now. Zelda U/NX is an unknown quantity atm and it has to stand on its own merits, not those of past Zelda games. And we'll have to wait until 2017 to see what's up with it.

And then about half way (a mere 1.5 - 2 year) in its life cycle the PS2 happened and all of a sudden that great hardware suddenly wasn't good enough to compete anymore, lol. Which demonstrates how relevant specs really are: really not that friggin' important.

I'm not downplaying anything. The Wii showed that graphical prowess isn't important to sell consoles. The Game Gear was also far superior to the Game Boy. A good graphics card only gets you so far, and in case of the Dreamcast, that wasn't very far, because sales wise, it was a disaster. So much for all those great specs that still seem to give you a boner thinking back at them.

Did it though? We never saw DC fully tapped out because it went off the market too soon. Following system trajectories from back then, we wouldn't have been able to see its visual capabilities fully utilized until 2002-2003, which is the actual halfway point of the gen you're alluding to. There are also plenty of other factors that influence a game's visual capability aside from hardware power, such as budget allocation. As visually impressive PS2 games like GT3, MGS2 etc. were, they could've been done on Dreamcast on the technical level. The specs are there. Maybe it would not have had enough for particle effect fillrates, but none of the other systems that gen did aside PS2. And for certain, a lot of those early 1st/2nd/ and some of the 3rd gen PS2 games would have had better textures and a crisper color palette on Dreamcast, as those are two aspects of the hardware it outdid PS2 in (of which I'm aware of).

I think a lot of people, when they say this sort of thing, don't take into account that visual direction influences even the technical aspects of the visual design. Sega's games on Dreamcast were bright and colorful, because of their heritage as an arcade developer. Bright clean colors, simplified levels of detail (in comparison to a more realistic-looking game), focus on unique shapes to pass the "silhouette test"...stuff like that. So they're not going to need the type of budget on budget as a developer making a super realistic-looking game (even from that era), b/c the polygon budget is going to be different, the shader budget is going to be different, the amount of manhours needed for the models is going to be different, etc.

But then you look at certain games like DOA2 and Code:Veronica, it's obvious they have visual advantages on Dreamcast. With clever workarounds we saw later PS2 games close the disparity in texture capabilities and color saturation (well, almost), but I'm willing to admit that may've also been down to artistic design choices of those games. My main point basically is this: we never got the chance to see Dreamcast's capabilities utilized to their full potential, and sometimes I feel people overestimate PS2's capabilities in relation to it. Sony was a master of hype marketing then but they definitely had a habit of bullshitting their numbers. And the truth is, I don't see a massive amount of PS2 games that would not have been capable on Dreamcast, and would not be able to retain the visual fidelity they had on PS2. We wouldn't see the disparity between Dreamcast and PS2 that we saw between PS2 and Gamecube/Xbox that gen, essentially. It'd essentially be between what we have right now w/ XBO/PS4, and 360/PS3, particularly with multiplats.

And no, you're downplaying how important specs were/are even back then. One of the main reasons the Saturn was decimated in NA by PS1 was because of companies like EA lambasting its specs in comparison to Sony's machine. N64's early marketing hype played on the fact it was a 64-bit machine. DC was overshadowed by PS2 simply due to thoughts PS2 would be more powerful. 360 gained traction in NA over PS3 b/c early multiplats looked much better on it, and today, a major reason people say they chose PS4 over XBO was because it was the more powerful system and played better-looking multiplats. Hell, we are seeing iterative consoles this year b/c consumers and developers want more powerful systems. So to say specs aren't really that important is very disingenuous.
 

petran79

Banned
VF3 still provides more depth than most 3D fighters on the market today, including TTT2. And for that I immensely appreciate it. The way throw reversals work, Korean step, variety in attack options, the terrain system, etc. TTT2 may be the more fluid fighter but I'd hope so given it came out 16 years later. And even with that said there are things VF3 does better.

I give Tekken its chops for its style, though. It's always had that component down, and it has more depth than critics give it credit for.

Tatsunoko vs Capcom is actually the fighting game that stands out on Wii U (Wii BC)
Prefer it to MvC3
 

espher

Member
WiiU, for me, based on library.

The Dreamcast had a lot of stuff but I personally only liked a very small subset of it.
 
Tatsunoko vs Capcom is actually the fighting game that stands out on Wii U (Wii BC)
Prefer it to MvC3

I've been thinking of picking that up actually. It's something of a cult classic these days. But if that is the case, it's more of a strength to Wii than Wii U imo.

Pokken does some pretty interesting things tho; it'll be interesting to see how that series develops.

The context for each console are so different that doesn't allow for a fair comparison. At Dreamcast time, specs were enough to offer new experiences, but today it isn't. That's why I commend the Wii U's effort on approaching console gaming in a different way through the gamepad.

Leaving that aside, both were fresh machines that went full force on their respective companies' styles, betting on old school fun and color, more in the case of the Wii U when everybody was waiting for the next yearly walk'em up TPS or sandbox.

Console war is a stupid concept. They should be equally appreciated.

Dreamcast did much more than simply have good specs tho. As others have already mentioned, it solidified online gaming by having a built-in modem (in NA and Europe; not sure if it was included standard in Japan from memory), introduced the "screen in a controller" concept, was the first console to enable better-than-arcade gaming experiences at home, was the first console with the first game using the cel-shaded style (Jet Set Radio/Jet Grind Radio), the first console to feature an OS (Windows CE support), and more.

So in actuality, even aside from specs, it influenced/did more for gaming in 1999 than Wii U did for gaming in 2012 to present day, if we're merely looking at feature/service innovation and evolution of previous features/services.
 

kunonabi

Member
I've been thinking of picking that up actually. It's something of a cult classic these days. But if that is the case, it's more of a strength to Wii than Wii U imo.

Pokken does some pretty interesting things tho; it'll be interesting to see how that series develops.

To be fair this whole discussion seems to be more about Wii vs DC at this point. Hell Wii + GC compatibility is looking like the winner the way the Wii U supporters are talking.
 

GenG3000

Member
I've been thinking of picking that up actually. It's something of a cult classic these days. But if that is the case, it's more of a strength to Wii than Wii U imo.

Pokken does some pretty interesting things tho; it'll be interesting to see how that series develops.



Dreamcast did much more than simply have good specs tho. As others have already mentioned, it solidified online gaming by having a built-in modem (in NA and Europe; not sure if it was included standard in Japan from memory), introduced the "screen in a controller" concept, was the first console to enable better-than-arcade gaming experiences at home, was the first console with the first game using the cel-shaded style (Jet Set Radio/Jet Grind Radio), the first console to feature an OS (Windows CE support), and more.

So in actuality, even aside from specs, it influenced/did more for gaming in 1999 than Wii U did for gaming in 2012 to present day, if we're merely looking at feature/service innovation and evolution of previous features/services.

Without downplaying DC's achievements, my point was that it was much easier to be the first in something when the industry was still growing. Today it's much difficult to innovate. If Wii U didn't do anything for the industry, then neither XONE or PS4 did. At this point it's very difficult to create something completely new and relevant.

Wii U also introduced Miiverse as an in-game integrated community with drawings and dedicated forums for each title, the gamepad as a home console concept and the experiences it spawned, the amiibo scanner and so on.

Even FAMICOM and Sega Saturn had online services.
 
Did it though? We never saw DC fully tapped out because it went off the market too soon. Following system trajectories from back then, we wouldn't have been able to see its visual capabilities fully utilized until 2002-2003, which is the actual halfway point of the gen you're alluding to.

I was talking about the DCs lifespan, not alluding to the generation.

And you're completely missing the point, which was that specs are largely unimportant.

And no, you're downplaying how important specs were/are even back then. One of the main reasons the Saturn was decimated in NA by PS1 was because of companies like EA lambasting its specs in comparison to Sony's machine.

Garbage argument. The Wii was by far the weakest of all consoles of its generation. Lots of gamers and developers alike trolling its graphical capabilities ("Two GameCubes duct taped together TROLOLOLOLOLOL"), and yet it was a beast in sales.

a major reason people say they chose PS4 over XBO was because it was the more powerful system and played better-looking multiplats.

No. A certain type of people do. A minority at that too.

Vita offers way more powerful graphics than the 3DS, yet nobody buys it (sales of the Vita are roughly 1/6th of those of the 3DS), and developers aren't interested in it. Even Sony isn't interested in it. Hell, developers or consumers wouldn't even be interested in a more powerful iteration of the Vita.

You know this, but clearly "conveniently forgot" it. Talk about disingeuous, lol. There are plenty of examples in tech that demonstrate how specs don't matter.
 
My point was that it is much easier to be the first in something when the industry was still growing. Today it's much difficult to innovate. If Wii U didn't do anything for the industry, then neither XONE or PS4 did.

Wii U also introduced Miiverse as an in-game integrated community with drawings and dedicated forums for each title, the gamepad as a home console concept and the experiences it spawned, the amiibo scanner and so on.

Even FAMICOM and Sega Saturn had online services.

Miiverse was an iterative feature first attempted by Sony with PS Home on PS3. That didn't quite pan out but the concept was about the same. Without it Nintendo would not have had anything to build Miiverse off of.

I'm certainly aware of the Netlink on Saturn, and Xband for SNES/Genesis and Sega Channel. Even the Satellaview. However I never said Dreamcast was the first to do online gaming either; it was just the first to solidify the idea into a workable, successful implementation. It also served as the backbone for Xbox Live, which took it even further.

And, I never said (or meant to imply) Wii U didn't bring any innovation. There is the Off-TV play and the Miiverse thing, as you mentioned. Amiibos are pretty neat and a different take on the Skylanders stuff that came before them. I would say PS4 has bought its own innovations or improvements on previous concepts as well (Share play/Share button, game streaming w/ PS Vita, PS Now), as has XBO (the Elite controller). However in the grand scheme of things those haven't had as much of an impact as a lot of what Dreamcast brought to the table, and your point about it being easier back then is both true and false, but an excellent mention.

It's true because there was more room to innovate, and tech was moving at a faster pace. However, it's also false because the crossover in different market segments we take for granted today was completely nonexistent back then. You didn't have the leveraging of similar chips, RAM, DSPs or system architecture back then by large majority of market competitors from a small pool of providers that we see today. Almost every chip in a commercial product these days comes from nVidia, AMD, Intel, etc. for example. Almost every architecture is either x86, ARM, or a variant of those, a huge bulk of products are assembled by Foxconn, etc.

It was much more disparate back during the time of 6th gen, and architectures were extremely exotic. Therefore it required more upfront work on the part of the platform manufacturers (and more R&D into areas that are now handled by third party applications or services for a fraction of the cost) to get things running in sync. That's why, on that note, it was actually harder back then to a degree.

specs are largely unimportant.

[..........]

specs don't matter.


We're talking in regards the home console market though, not handhelds, which is why I left PS Vita, 3DS etc. out of the picture. They don't matter here. And if you want to get technical, specs matter to a degree where other shortcomings don't outweigh their importance, but they DO matter. PS Vita died because it had a stupid memory card format at an obscene price. PS3 struggled out of the gate because the price was too high, not because its specs weren't impressive. In fact it partially sold as well as it did early on because of its specs.

I think you already know the real reason Dreamcast didn't sell well enough; it's not because the specs didn't matter. The specs at the time were very impressive and part of the reason it did as well as it did. However it wasn't enough to offset Sega's damaged brand name or the ridiculous hype for PS2. If specs didn't matter, it'd of actually likely sold worst during its lifetime, because then you cut out a lot of early adopters, who tend to be technophiles anyway. Or look at it this way; if specs didn't matter, the Wii U would be selling better than it's been doing. However one of the chief complaints from early adopters and would-be early adopters was that it wasn't that much more capable than a PS3 or 360, so they rejected it. Early adopters set the trend for the more casual consumers to follow, which is where your argument of "specs don't matter", is really the only area where it applies :/

Regarding the Wii, it was a complete anomaly compared to the typical console cycle. It bypassed the usual pecking order but still managed to appeal to a lot of core gamers (early on) in spite of its lack of appealing specs, because they were already happy w/ their 360 and/or PS3 and didn't mind another console as long as it had something unique to offer, which the Wii did. They still got it because they could count on Nintendo to deliver good games for the platform. And all of this happened simultaneously with casuals buying it due to software like Wii Sports directly appealing to them, and the system's marketing campaign connecting with them immediately. It was so much of anomaly that Nintendo themselves did not honestly understand it, which is why they've been unable to recreate that success and arguably will never be able to do so again.

Saying specs matter or not depends on the specific market. We're talking about home consoles. We're talking about how the buying trends with those usually go. And in that specific context, specs have always mattered. If they didn't we'd never need more than an NES for our games.
 
We're talking in regards the home console market though, not handhelds, which is why I left PS Vita, 3DS etc. out of the picture. They don't matter here.

Of course we do. (No, wait, we were actually talking specs in general.) The Wii is not a home console. I forgot. The PS2, weaker in specs than GC and XBOX is also no home console. How could I forget?

Let's not forget the powerful and innovative Apple Pippin (those specs!!!!!), which dominated the 5th generation of consoles.

And if you want to get technical, specs matter to a degree where other shortcomings don't outweigh their importance, but they DO matter. PS Vita died because it had a stupid memory card format at an obscene price. PS3 struggled out of the gate because the price was too high, not because its specs weren't impressive. In fact it partially sold as well as it did early on because of its specs.

So what you're basically saying is that specs DON'T MATTER. Because if they actually did, the PSVita had won the race, and PS3 had won its generation by a landslide and it would've been the console every single dev had developed the base version of their multiplat games for.

I think you already know the real reason Dreamcast didn't sell well enough; it's not because the specs didn't matter. The specs at the time were very impressive and part of the reason it did as well as it did.

Only it didn't do well, lol. Again, despite its specs, because... they really are not that important.

However it wasn't enough to offset Sega's damaged brand name or the ridiculous hype for PS2.

Of course, why would anyone not buy SEGA, amirite?

If specs didn't matter, it'd of actually likely sold worst during its lifetime, because then you cut out a lot of early adopters, who tend to be technophiles anyway. Or look at it this way; if specs didn't matter, the Wii U would be selling better than it's been doing. However one of the chief complaints from early adopters and would-be early adopters was that it wasn't that much more capable than a PS3 or 360, so they rejected it. Early adopters set the trend for the more casual consumers to follow, which is where your argument of "specs don't matter", is really the only area where it applies :/

And there we are: like I said earlier: a certain type of people care about specs. You and a couple of other people. Unfortunately not the majority.

A console does need that majority to help develop an install base though. And for that it needs games, or it needs something other defining. Mostly it needs the market to be ready for it.

Regarding the Wii, it was a complete anomaly compared to the typical console cycle.

Of course it's an anomaly if it doesn't fit your logic.

The PS2 did well with casuals because it had a cheap DVD player. I guess that was ALSO an anomaly, right? But then Sony tried the same trick again with the PS3 and BluRay. Oh wait... could it be... a business strategy? Could it?

Could the inclusion of motion controls have been a well thought out business strategy? No... can't be. It was dumb luck, wasn't it? It was an accident. Someone accidentally put that Wiimote in that box. They did like zero marketing research on it to see if people would love it or not. I mean, if SEGA had done it, that would've been an different thing... but Nintendo? Nope!

It bypassed the usual pecking order but still managed to appeal to a lot of core gamers (early on) in spite of its lack of appealing specs, because they were already happy w/ their 360 and/or PS3 and didn't mind another console as long as it had something unique to offer, which the Wii did.

Core gamers, including you no doubt, were mocking the Wii about pretty much everything. Its name, its casual games, all the shovelware, ... you name it.

They still got it because they could count on Nintendo to deliver good games for the platform.

Yeah, but with the Wii U they couldn't count on it anymore, so that's why they didn't buy one. I completely understand now... If only Nintendo had developed good games for the Wii U, so that core gamers would buy it...

And all of this happened simultaneously with casuals buying it due to software like Wii Sports directly appealing to them, and the system's marketing campaign connecting with them immediately. It was so much of anomaly that Nintendo themselves did not honestly understand it, which is why they've been unable to recreate that success and arguably will never be able to do so again.

There is only one home console that sold better than the Wii. History tells us repeating that kind of success is hard. This has nothing to do with the Wii being an anomaly. It's just hard to dominate a generation that much. You need a winning formula for that. Like the PS2 had, and like the Wii had.

Saying specs matter or not depends on the specific market. We're talking about home consoles. We're talking about how the buying trends with those usually go. And in that specific context, specs have always mattered.

Nope, you can extrapolate this to all tech. You have early adopters in all of those markets, you know, that mechanism you explained above.

If they didn't we'd never need more than an NES for our games.

Are you sure the Atari wasn't good enough?
 

Synth

Member

Right, I haven't had time to keep up with this thread, so I'm a bit behind, and will just have to reply to a general summary of what's been said since my last post. I'll probably for most posts going forwards as well, because your replies generally don't warrant a line-by-line response as you go around in circles claiming objectivity for your subjective opinions.

Specs do matter. Obviously the price and time matters too. If you release a more powerful Gamecube 2 years after the PS2 has had the entire market to itself, then yes, things get a bit more complicated... but the PS2 was clearly the specs leader when it was released, and it mattered. It also mattered that consoles like the OG Xbox had better specs, because releasing so much later, and with so few games comparatively, having the same specs as the PS2 would have been a complete disaster, and we may not even have Xbox in the market right now. It being the most powerful console was pretty much all it sold off, with the exception of Halo. The PS3 is another example of specs mattering, but the other way. It arrived with specs that weren't clearly superior to the 360, a year later, at a higher price (another factor that matters). So people just bought 360s in its place, despite the market dominance the PlayStation brand had established over the previous two generations. Even in the case of the Wii... sure it sold a ton based on its unique hardware (i.e. spec) abilities, that (surprise, surprise) changed what sorts of games it could provide... but it also died out far earlier than Nintendo were evidently prepared for, due to its lower base console specs making it incapable of running the same software that was targeting the PS3/X360. If it had also had those machines' specs, they both would have been fucked for the long game. The PS4 is a recent case where both the specs AND the price was advantageous. For every example you can think of for "specs don't matter" there are multiple for why they do. It's why we even have console generations (that frequently break software compatibility in favor of more important spec stuff).

Now that you've responded to the whole "PlayStation console that plays PS1 games and PS2 game, but has no unique PS3 games" thing... I can tell you that this console isn't actually anywhere near as "theoretical" as you seem to think. See, this is actually what a real PS2 does. So the value provided by such an expansive catalog of amazing games can actually be somewhat illustrated relative to time here. In 2000 the ability to play the library of games was considered worth at least $300 (and that's with the PS2 having only a handful of games at the time). Today, most people won't consider it worth the sub-$50 prices the console that easily be had for... whilst tens of millions of people are willing to pay $350+ for a PS4 that lacks the ability to play these games. This is what time does to software. The exact same library of games (and where talking thousands here, between PS1 and PS2) carries fuck all weight thru 2013-2016. The same goes for the Wii U BC options. The same would ALSO (and even moreso) apply for the Dreamcast IF we were evaluating it as of 2016... but we're not. We're evaluating through 1999-2001 a time where its software library was current, impressive and not comprised mostly of low-rent, microwaved Wii and SNES games. You seem to hold those games in higher regard than most, and that's fine... you're entitled to do so... but the difference in how their worth is generally perceived is quite clear. The people that care that the Wii U plays Wii games and VC games are...

a certain type of people...You and a couple of other people. Unfortunately not the majority.

I mean, talking about the majority in a thread of two failed consoles is a bit weird as it is... but you're talking about a such a small subset of that small majority, that claiming it as some universal truth is ridiculous. One GTAV, one CoD, one FIFA, one Madden, one Minecraft, one Destiny, one Assassin's Creed... outweigh like the entirety of the Wii + VC offerings in 2016.. and tbh, you probably wouldn't even need half of that list to do it. Take Smash Bros 4, New Super Mario Bros U, Splatoon, and Mario Kart 8 out of the Wii U's lineup, and you'd cripple its appeal by orders of magnitude more than you would by dropping Wii BC or VC. Those games simply aren't as important to it, so their numbers are irrelevant.

This thread is pure GAF. Two gangs of failed consoles fans arguing which one was the least failure.

It's what we do. :p
 
Right, I haven't had time to keep up with this thread, so I'm a bit behind, and will just have to reply to a general summary of what's been said since my last post. I'll probably for most posts going forwards as well, because your replies generally don't warrant a line-by-line response as you go around in circles claiming objectivity for your subjective opinions.

I'm gonna stop reading here.

The subjective opinion one is you, man. All your replies are not about an actual comparison between the Wii U and the DC. No, they're essentially about you.

How you wet your panties when you first saw the DC and fell madly in love with it. A phenomenon that apparently lasts until this very day. Not that that is a bad thing or anything. But that is what you keep talking about.

And then when it comes to the Wii U, it's again about you. How you have grown tired of Nintendo's older games, up to the point where you almost ignore their existence. How you don't play your Wii U because you have a lot of other stuff to keep you occupied.

I understand that way of reasoning, but it's not really an objective approach. Like at all. Which is why I wanted to make it about the number of great games each console has to offer, looking at the entire libraries the consoles have on offer.

Yet, because you secretly know that the DC can never win that battle, you keep ignoring that. Understandable, because you love your DC more, and all you want to hear is that the DC rules. Suit yourself. I really have nothing more to say about it than everything I already did.

I can tell you that this console isn't actually anywhere near as "theoretical" as you seem to think. See, this is actually what a real PS2 does. So the value provided by such an expansive catalog of amazing games can actually be somewhat illustrated relative to time here. In 2000 the ability to play the library of games was considered worth at least $300 (and that's with the PS2 having only a handful of games at the time).

Hold on. I am going to respond to this. You talked about the PS3, not the PS2. Your PS3 example was completely fictional and pointless.

Also, when the PS2 gives you access to the entire PS1 library, that is "value" to you. But when the Wii U gives you access to the Wii U, Wii and Virtual Console libraries, then it's called "additive" and of little value, because "SPECS RULE DUDE". LOL! Make up your mind. Do you even read your own postings?

Now I'm done.
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
Did it though? We never saw DC fully tapped out because it went off the market too soon. Following system trajectories from back then, we wouldn't have been able to see its visual capabilities fully utilized until 2002-2003, which is the actual halfway point of the gen you're alluding to. There are also plenty of other factors that influence a game's visual capability aside from hardware power, such as budget allocation. As visually impressive PS2 games like GT3, MGS2 etc. were, they could've been done on Dreamcast on the technical level. The specs are there. Maybe it would not have had enough for particle effect fillrates, but none of the other systems that gen did aside PS2. And for certain, a lot of those early 1st/2nd/ and some of the 3rd gen PS2 games would have had better textures and a crisper color palette on Dreamcast, as those are two aspects of the hardware it outdid PS2 in (of which I'm aware of).

I think a lot of people, when they say this sort of thing, don't take into account that visual direction influences even the technical aspects of the visual design. Sega's games on Dreamcast were bright and colorful, because of their heritage as an arcade developer. Bright clean colors, simplified levels of detail (in comparison to a more realistic-looking game), focus on unique shapes to pass the "silhouette test"...stuff like that. So they're not going to need the type of budget on budget as a developer making a super realistic-looking game (even from that era), b/c the polygon budget is going to be different, the shader budget is going to be different, the amount of manhours needed for the models is going to be different, etc.

But then you look at certain games like DOA2 and Code:Veronica, it's obvious they have visual advantages on Dreamcast. With clever workarounds we saw later PS2 games close the disparity in texture capabilities and color saturation (well, almost), but I'm willing to admit that may've also been down to artistic design choices of those games. My main point basically is this: we never got the chance to see Dreamcast's capabilities utilized to their full potential, and sometimes I feel people overestimate PS2's capabilities in relation to it. Sony was a master of hype marketing then but they definitely had a habit of bullshitting their numbers. And the truth is, I don't see a massive amount of PS2 games that would not have been capable on Dreamcast, and would not be able to retain the visual fidelity they had on PS2. We wouldn't see the disparity between Dreamcast and PS2 that we saw between PS2 and Gamecube/Xbox that gen, essentially. It'd essentially be between what we have right now w/ XBO/PS4, and 360/PS3, particularly with multiplats.

You seem to be downplaying PS2's capabilities versus Dreamcast. I don't feel they were as close as you're implying.

First off Dreamcast was an easy system to develop on. Being able to harness the most of the system right out of the gate is why it's games never really grew much more impressive then what was available at launch.

That's the direct opposite of PS2, which was known to be more difficult to create games on, and had a heck of a bottleneck. Over time as developers grew more familiar with the hardware, you could see the difference in the games. It was clearly a more powerful piece of hardware, and while Dreamcast might be able to run the same games, it wouldn't be nearly at the level PS2 was.

Titles like Tekken 5, Soul Calibur 2, God of War 2, Devil May Cry, Onimusha 2, MGS2, Gran Turismo 4, etc wouldn't look nearly as good on Dreamcast.
 

Synth

Member

I didn't say my opinion wasn't subjective. I know it is. I also know yours is... the difference is that you don't seem to realise yours is, lol.

You want to make it about "the number of great games each has"... but that's also subjective. We all think different games are great or not great, and so everyone would have a different number of these for each respective machine (such as you thinking 25-30 for DC is generous, whilst I think it's hilariously lowballing it... subjective). Not only that, but even two games that someone may consider great don't automatically cancel each other out. I think Wipeout 2097, Project Gotham Racing 2 and MotorStorm are all "great"... yet I would take Wipeout 2097 over both of the other combined if I were forced to make the choice between them. So a console having both PGR2 and MotorStorm wouldn't automatically have a better software library than one that has Wipeout 2097 (assuming all else was equal). This is why I can understand when someone selects the Wii U over other consoles, even if it has less games overall that interest them... even if I disagree myself. You on the other hand are trying to disregard people's personal opinion, under the assumption that specific games are simply factually great, always will be, and that every "great" game is exactly as great as any other great game... that's the only way you could math yourself an objective answer... but it simply doesn't work that way, and that should be obvious to anybody really.

EDIT: Forgot to address the PS2 stuff.

Yea, I called it a "theoretical PS3"... but a PS3 with nothing but PS1 and PS2 BC with no games of its own... is basically a PS2. It was kinda a red-herring.

And I consider it additive for both PlayStation and Nintendo consoles. My argument is that people generally don't care about the PS1 or PS2 library enough in 2016 to pay basically anything for it. We'd take it on the PS4 if it was just "there" like 360 BC kinda is now on XB1, but its lack of perceived value is why they don't just throw the PS2 chip back in there (like they initially had in the PS3 before removing it), charge an additional $50-100 and watch the sales of the console shoot through the roof. Because the sales of the console wouldn't shoot through the roof, because only a much smaller subset of the people buying a PS4 would want it enough to pay any sort of mark up for it. It's also why the games aren't on the shelves... because not many people would be buying them. So my stance here is consistent.

You seem to be downplaying PS2's capabilities versus Dreamcast. I don't feel they were as close as you're implying.

Yea, gonna have to agree with this here. I don't see year 3 onwards for the Dreamcast faring well against the PS2 on a technical level. The Dreamcast in its second year was punching well above its weight against the PS2 for a number of reasons.

Firstly, it was the second year (compare JP launch DC games like VF3tb or Pen Pen Triicelon to launch PS2 games like Ridge Racer V). Soul Calibur at the US launch was basically the freak anomaly that took until Dead or Alive 2 to be dethroned.

Secondly, it was far easier to develop for. It's not to dissimilar to what later happened again with the 360 and the PS3. The main difference in this case was that a properly utilised PS2 had a far greater power advantage over the Dreamcast than the PS3 did over the 360 (which all things considered is basically a wash). It certainly wouldn't have been like the 360/PS3 in regards to multiplats. Definitely not. More Saturn vs PS1 over time I'd imagine.
 
I didn't say my opinion wasn't subjective. I know it is. I also know yours is... the difference is that you don't seem to realise yours is, lol.

You want to make it about "the number of great games each has"... but that's also subjective. We all think different games are great or not great, and so everyone would have a different number of these for each respective machine (such as you thinking 25-30 for DC is generous, whilst I think it's hilariously lowballing it... subjective).

Look dude, clearly the DC is the greatest console ever made to you. I respect that. That's perfectly fine. But why not try to be at least somewhat rational about it?

There were 700 DC games total, correct?
Not sure how many Wii U games there are, but probably 200+. Then the total amount of Wii games, which is 1260. If we then add all the indie games and all the VC games, we're probably getting close to 2000 games.

So basically the DC library is less than half of the games a Wii U owner has at his or her disposal.

Now, your claim is that the DC was such an amazing console that all the best games ever made were all grouped on that one SEGA console. Like 80% of those games were amazing, right? (Being extremely generous here.) That's 560 games.

Meanwhile, let's say that the Wii U library consist mostly out of crap. Let's say 65% of the entire library is crap. That would be 1300 crappy titles. That would mean 35% is quality, which is still 700 games.

Even statistically, your claim that the DC has more quality is bonkers. The Wii U catalog and the DC aren't even in the same league.
 

generic_username

I switched to an alt account to ditch my embarrassing tag so I could be an embarrassing Naughty Dog fanboy in peace. Ask me anything!
This thread is pure GAF. Two gangs of failed consoles fans arguing which one was the least failure.

Lol. Wait till PS Vita fans talk about how you can play PS1 and PS2 games in it so PS Vita has the better life than both Dreamcast and WiiU.
 

generic_username

I switched to an alt account to ditch my embarrassing tag so I could be an embarrassing Naughty Dog fanboy in peace. Ask me anything!
PS2 games on Vita huh?

Lol there are no ps2 games in the vita ? I thought there were. No idea lol

Edit just checked - no ps2 games. Holy shit. Okay atleast ps1 games so something I guess.
 

Synth

Member

Actually, the PS2 or Xbox 360 are probably the greatest consoles ever made to me. The Dreamcast and the Xbox are the consoles I'd probably say had the strongest initial years (and for the Dreamcast, that's all that existed). Just because I don't rate the Wii U highly, doesn't mean I don't have a lot of appreciation for many other consoles. There's nothing irrational about saying one console is/was better than another based on your personal experiences of both. It's far, far less rational to try and draw up some mathematical formula to inform people that their preferences are somehow wrong, because someone somewhere may not have yet played Super Metroid, may not have another other means to, may actually have an interest to, and then may actually select the Wii U as their console of choice. That sort of criteria eliminates so many people, that it'd be statistical noise at best.

I already told you that all games aren't considered equal, so your mathematical example is again pointless. Even if those exact numbers were the case (and I'd say they're both ridiculously inflated on both sides)... if the 560 Dreamcast games were actually 560 games like Daytona USA, F355 Challenge, Shenmue, Phantasy Star Online etc in 2001... whilst the 700 "Wii U" games had like 600+ games like Super Mario Galaxy, F-Zero X, Megaman X, Super Metroid, etc in 2016... then I'd still say the Dreamcast lineup is better for the time period discussed. Because I'd happily put $60 (or more) down for each of those Dreamcast games as they released, but wouldn't be willing to pay anywhere near that amount for any of the "Wii U" games as the were added to the eShop... because they're old hat, and not of equivalent worth to me.

My claim isn't that the Dreamcast has more quality, period. It's that it had more quality games that I'd actually want to play between 1999-2001 than the Wii U has had that I've wanted to play between 2012-2016. I'm not sure how this aspect of the discussion (that the thread title clearly implies) keeps missing you. Super Metroid today isn't as valuable as Super Metroid was in 1994 (where I bought it for the equivalent of $73)... but your calculations choose to pretend it is.
 

Lothars

Member
And what reason might that be according to you?
I feel the DC has way more quality experiences and was just a better overall console than the WII-U even including the Wii Library. It is hard for me to recommend a WII-U at the moment to anyone at the price they are asking even with backwards compatiblity.

Though the one assessment that I agree with you is that VC is a selling feature but not enough to recommend it over a DC or to say the WII U is a better console than it.
 
If you are going to count Virtual Console games and BC then you have to acknowledge that any console before VC/BC is fundamentally not comparable to the ones that came after.

The Wii U is better than the SNES right? Because it's got a large chunk of the great SNES games AND a shitload of NES/N64 ones AND all the Wii U games AND all the Gamecube games? The original 60 GB model of the PS3 would be the de facto greatest console of all time before you even started discussing the actual current gen games that came out for it.
 
My claim isn't that the Dreamcast has more quality, period. It's that it had more quality games that I'd actually want to play between 1999-2001 than the Wii U has had that I've wanted to play between 2012-2016. I'm not sure how this aspect of the discussion (that the thread title clearly implies) keeps missing you. Super Metroid today isn't as valuable as Super Metroid was in 1994 (where I bought it for the equivalent of $73)... but your calculations choose to pretend it is.

Have I got news for you. Super Metroid doesn't cost $73 in the VC right now.
And my calculations don't pretend anything. They just show that even statistically, your quality claim of the DC library is bull.
Like I said earlier, I understand that you, as a Dreamcast fanboy, value DC games higher in general.
But statistically speaking, it's ridiculous to think that a console with a 700-piece library has more quality games than a console with a 2000-piece library.
There really is no console who has comparatively that much more quality games that it can make up for a 1300-piece difference in the amount of total games available for it.
Doesn't mean that a starry-eyed individual such as yourself cannot believe that his beloved console has more quality. But that is pure opinion, not rational thinking.

I feel the DC has way more quality experiences and was just a better overall console than the WII-U even including the Wii Library. It is hard for me to recommend a WII-U at the moment to anyone at the price they are asking even with backwards compatiblity.

Though the one assessment that I agree with you is that VC is a selling feature but not enough to recommend it over a DC or to say the WII U is a better console than it.

Yeah, well, it's a trend in here to downplay the wealth of quality the VC offers. So, can't say I'm surprised.

If you are going to count Virtual Console games and BC then you have to acknowledge that any console before VC/BC is fundamentally not comparable to the ones that came after.

The Wii U is better than the SNES right? Because it's got a large chunk of the great SNES games AND a shitload of NES/N64 ones AND all the Wii U games AND all the Gamecube games?

Yes and no.

Yes, because newer consoles do grant you access to an immense catalog of games, typically some of the best ever produced.

No, because newer consoles don't necessarily come with controllers fit to play some of those older games. So the gameplay experience of the same game can actually be different (worse) on a newer console versus an older one). Other things that could prevent it from giving you the same experience is that the emulation isn't good for example.

Nintendo did cater to the controller problem though with a wealth of controller options for the Wii U.

The original 60 GB model of the PS3 would be the de facto greatest console of all time before you even started discussing the actual current gen games that came out for it.

First of all, that model isn't fully backwards compatible, and it has other (hardware) problems too, so it wouldn't be the "de facto" greatest console of all time.

But provided that it were fully backwards compatible and that it was equally reliable as the PS1 and PS2, than how is it NOT better than a PS1 or PS2 when you can literally play all the games from 3 consoles on it and experience the exact same game experience? Why would you even connect a PS1 and/or PS2 to your TV when your fully BC PS3 can play all the games you ever need?
 
Have I got news for you. Super Metroid doesn't cost $73 in the VC right now.
And my calculations don't pretend anything. They just show that even statistically, your quality claim of the DC library is bull.
Like I said earlier, I understand that you, as a Dreamcast fanboy, value DC games higher in general.
But statistically speaking, it's ridiculous to think that a console with a 700-piece library has more quality games than a console with a 2000-piece library.
There really is no console who has comparatively that much more quality games that it can make up for a 1300-piece difference in the amount of total games available for it.
Doesn't mean that a starry-eyed individual such as yourself cannot believe that his beloved console has more quality. But that is pure opinion, not rational thinking.

Super Metroid is worth about 73 dollars less than it was in 1994 because I can download it for free in about 30 seconds total (counting the time it takes to find it and download time) and play a version that's better emulated than the VC version and has the same amount of features.
 
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