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[Morn]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/09/19/kindred-spirits-world-of-darkness/#more-74675

White Wolf are holding their Grand Masquerade at the moment, which makes me wish I was in New Orleans. That said, just mentioning New Orleans makes me want to be there so we won’t give White Wolf too much credit. If you’re not aware of them, they’re the company behind Vampire: The Masquerade and other related role playing games. Not the computer versions, mind, but the actual pen and paper, sit around and speak words to each other versions. The Grand Masquerade is their fan get-together and details about CCP’s upcoming World of Darkness MMORPG have been dripping out of it. Dripping like blood, you see?


This was revealed ages ago and there was even some scene setting footage at last year’s Grand Masquerade, but it hasn’t been heard of in a good while. It’s also the first time there’s been any real discussion of how it’ll actually play. It’s still in pre-production so everything could change but there will definitely be vampires. I’m willing to place a large bet on that.

Although keen on vampires, the game will allow players to remain mortal. Everyone starts that way and can choose to become one of the undead. Although even the undead can die, of course, and the game will have permadeath for characters. The game is sticking close to its pen and paper roots and will even have LARP crossover events, which doesn’t sound like something I’d particularly want to involve myself in. Unless they took place in a bar in New Orleans.

While vampires scurrying around in the dark might sound like a very different proposition to EVE Online, there will be similarities. The whole game will take place on a single server and Masquerade’s world is full of political manoeuvring and warring factions. That aside, there will also be nudity, gore and insanity. Although presumably not at the LARP events.

Characters have “humanity” points, which they lose if they do too many horrible or, presumably, inhuman things. Presumably, there will be some sort of balancing act to perform, with players trying to retain their humanity while being tempted by nasty plots and quests that promise power. It’s not confirmed but I imagine making a cup of tea and sighing about the terribly dark state of today’s world restores some humanity.

My favourite detail though? Even for mortal characters, the entire game will take place at night. And I bet the coolest vampires will still wear shades.

 

[Emitan]

I don't care for the setting at all, but I love the permadeath idea.

 

[DieH@rd]

I like this. Follow the masquerade or be damned.

 

[Morn]

I don't care for the setting at all, but I love the permadeath idea.

What, not enough sparkly vampires for you?

 

[Haly]

I love CCP even though I can't stand playing EVE.

I hope they can make this interesting to play.

 

[Darklord]

I don't like it. EVE online had brutal death penalties that make things feel more tense but also can ruin the game. And even they didn't have perma death. Just the ship.

Edit: Wait, this is CCCP? Oh god, what madness will this MMO have?

 

[Emitan]

What, not enough sparkly vampires for you?

I only play games with sparkly vampires and werewolf hunks. And permadeath. Because I'm hardcore.

 

[Haly]

Wait, this is CCCP? Oh god, what madness will this MMO have?

Goonswarm but with zombehs instead of T1 cruisers

 

[Dennis]

Permadeaths are great in principle for an MMO but I have a job while someone may be able to devote all his time to this game..... and you fucking know he will gank me and my carefully crafted vampire when I log on......

 

[Hari Seldon]

I'm sold. A ccp MMO set in a modern setting with nudity and hardcore permadeath is exactly what this wow-clone genre needs.

 

[Kintaro]

lol LARP crossover events...

 

[BattleMonkey]

This could be awesome (borrow the awesome EVE character creator!), but it will obviously be a niche MMO.

 

[Haly]

I don't think this is going to involve "ganking" in any traditional sense of the word.

 

[DurielBlack]

Permadeath? No thanks. One death because of a random lag spike or some douchebag ganking lowbies or exploiting something and that's the end of that.

 

[Kuran]

That's dark.

 

[badcrumble]

Permadeath *sounds* like a good idea, but there had better be some sort of earned bonuses for your next character (keep some equipment, roll better starting stats, whatever) so you don't have to start COMPLETELY over, or plenty of people will just quit the game as soon as their heavily-invested-in character gets killed.

I like the idea of any death being a genuinely important event in the history of your character, but there's a good middle ground between making it consequence-free in the long term and making it so consequential that when it happens you won't want to play anymore.

 

[Emitan]

Permadeath? No thanks. One death because of a random lag spike or some douchebag ganking lowbies or exploiting something and that's the end of that.

You just have to understand it's part of the game. If everyone's character has permadeath, it's not a big deal. It's not going to be like WoW where you spend hundreds of hours playing the same character.

 

[Snuggles]

Aside from sharing the same universe, will this have anything in common with Bloodlines? I'm nuts for that game but I'm not really into MMO's or pen and paper stuff.

 

[Haly]

It is depressing that every new MMO is automatically pegged as a WoW clone from the start, that every unfamiliar feature be viewed in the context of WoW's current gameplay.

Not that it's unreasonable, but it is saddening nonetheless.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Well, it is called "Final Death" for a reason.

 

[Kintaro]

You just have to understand it's part of the game. If everyone's character has permadeath, it's not a big deal. It's not going to be like WoW where you spend hundreds of hours playing the same character.

Why wouldn't you play the same character for hundreds of hours?

 

[Emitan]

Why wouldn't you play the same character for hundreds of hours?

Because it's not that type of game.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Aside from sharing the same universe, will this have anything in common with Bloodlines? I'm nuts for that game but I'm not really into MMO's or pen and paper stuff.

Well I doubt it will have all that much in common, different devs and such but the universe itself was rebooted and lot of the background altered in the current WoD

 

[Kintaro]

Because it's not that type of game.

Then what type of game is it?

 

[Mithos]

Sounds like a disaster, anyone not playing from day one will have higher level players killing all lowbies.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

It maybe from all the Dungeons of Dredmore I've been playing, but: count me intrigued.

Permadeaths are great in principle for an MMO but I have a job while someone may be able to devote all his time to this game..... and you fucking know he will gank me and my carefully crafted vampire when I log on......

Letting go of ones intangible possessions in pursuit of what's truly important in a game is freeing. Take it from someone who had a 4-way world war fought on the smouldering ruins of his guild's castle, which cost hundreds of millions of gold, and weeks of work to build and maintain.

 

[Emitan]

Then what type of game is it?

WoW is a game without permadeath where you're bringing a character through content for (hopefully) years. In a game with permadeath, that's not feasible. There's an expectation in a permadeath game that progression comes not only from what the little number next to your portrait is, but your knowledge of the game. Looking at this game as "WoW with permadeath" is like playing Baldur's Gate II and then wondering how someone could enjoy Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup when a death means game over. They're completely different experiences.

 

[notsol337]

Why wouldn't you play the same character for hundreds of hours?

That would be because they die forever.

 

[Kintaro]

WoW is a game without permadeath where you're bringing a character through content for (hopefully) years. In a game with permadeath, that's not feasible. There's an expectation in a permadeath game that progression comes not only from what the little number next to your portrait is, but your knowledge of the game. Looking at this game as "WoW with permadeath" is like playing Baldur's Gate II and then wondering how someone could enjoy Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup when a death means game over. They're completely different experiences.

I never said I was looking at this game as WoW w/ permadeath. But it IS a MMO. By their very nature, you progress your character, in whatever way the game dictates, over many hours/years/so on. So, the company making it can make money.

Is this somehow not true of this game?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

why would someone pay a monthly fee and play for hundreds of hours only to have all that time and money be thrown away when the character dies?

 

[Dresden]

Intrigued, maybe I'll start playing MMOs again with this.

 

[Haly]

why would someone pay a monthly fee and play for hundreds of hours only to have all that time and money be thrown away when the character dies?

Maybe the persistence is in something else besides your character?

 

[Kintaro]

why would someone pay a monthly fee and play for hundreds of hours only to have all that time and money be thrown away when the character dies?

This is why I'll be surprised as fuck if this feature makes it into the final game.

 

[SlipperySlope]

Permadeath?

Holy cow. That's worse than The Realm's (a very old-school MMORPG), 15% exp. penalty for each death and having your items stolen.

There was nothing like dying and dropping 8 levels. But permadeath brings it to a whole new level.

 

[Haly]

CCP is obviously being very ambitious with World of Darkness, as much as ArenaNet is with GW2. However they are advancing along completely different paths. While ArenaNet is improving upon the foundations set by GW and other MMOs of a similar nature like WoW or EQ, CCP is clearly trying to deviate from the "make character grind to cap" formula.

If you automatically think permadeath means level 85 vampire rogues camping outside of Stormwind to gank lowbies your perception of MMOs is extremely skewed.

 

[Iadien]

Ah, they finally confirmed this is in, they mentioned it over a year ago.

 

[Apath]

I'm sold. A ccp MMO set in a modern setting with nudity and hardcore permadeath is exactly what this wow-clone genre needs.

.

why would someone pay a monthly fee and play for hundreds of hours only to have all that time and money be thrown away when the character dies?

It really depends on how it's implemented. If this game has the standard grind and structure of other MMOs, it will fail spectacularly. If it manages to bring forth more unique gameplay ideas to the genre, it can work very well.

For the last year I've really been wanting A Song of Ice and Fire MMORPG that involves a lot of grit, permadeath, stealing, etc. Make the game less about loot and more about power and control of the game.

EDIT: Actually that kind of sounds like what they're doing:

While vampires scurrying around in the dark might sound like a very different proposition to EVE Online, there will be similarities. The whole game will take place on a single server and Masquerade’s world is full of political manoeuvring and warring factions. That aside, there will also be nudity, gore and insanity. Although presumably not at the LARP events.

 

[wrowa]

Perma-death sounds too frustrating for my taste :/

 

[Orayn]

I love the idea. Too many MMOs nowadays are just one hallway full of loot pinatas after another and this would definitely give the gameplay more weight.

 

[BattleMonkey]

If you automatically think permadeath means level 85 vampire rogues camping outside of Stormwind to gank lowbies your perception of MMOs is extremely skewed.

Yea this game is going to be very different. Most are thinking Vampire WoW

 

[Valnen]

This game will either die or go free to play within 6 months. People are going to quit in droves when they lose their hard work.

 

[Mithos]

If you automatically think permadeath means level 85 vampire rogues camping outside of Stormwind to gank lowbies your perception of MMOs is extremely skewed.

And still shit like this happens many times a day in MMO's around the world, IF you can kill another player some people WILL.

Currently in the MMO I'm playing, there are lvl 135-150 chars going PK on anything lower then them just because they can.

 

[Haly]

For the last year I've really been wanting A Song of Ice and Fire MMORPG that involves a lot of grit, permadeath, stealing, etc. Make the game less about loot and more about power and control of the game.

I agree, it could really be a game about politics.

Consider this:

Your character can belong to one of many factions. Whether your character dies is inconsequential, as long as your contributions to your chosen faction persists. If/when your character dies, you're allowed to make a new one, who will be able to join the same faction and continue where your old character left off.

Persistence, in such a game, would be the goals and objectives of your group, rather than advancement of your own character.

It could get really interesting if they let each new character choose their own faction. Then people can start getting into games of espionage by purposely suiciding their characters.

 

[BattleMonkey]

This game will either die or go free to play within 6 months. People are going to quit in droves when they lose their hard work.

I could see it being a big success, CCP should know what they are dealing with and it's a niche universe with a very niche sounding game. Basically what they did with EVE which has been very successful for them even though it's sub base is not all that high.

Really if anything is going to hurt them, it's Dust and the massive boneheaded move of making it PS3 exclusive.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Permadeath in World of Darkness? Ever heard of Wraith: The Oblivion?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Permadeaths are great in principle for an MMO but I have a job while someone may be able to devote all his time to this game..... and you fucking know he will gank me and my carefully crafted vampire when I log on......

Considering it's a World of Darkness game they'd be more likely to gank you in a round of heated discussion, I think you'll be okay.

 

[Orayn]

This game will either die or go free to play within 6 months. People are going to quit in droves when they lose their hard work.

"Features permadeath" does not mean that every death is permanent. It will probably be something like EVE where you stand to lose a lot of progress if you don't take the necessary precautions before doing something dangerous.

I agree, it could really be a game about politics.

Consider this:

Your character can belong to one of many factions. Whether your character dies is inconsequential, as long as your contributions to your chosen faction persists. If/when your character dies, you're allowed to make a new one, who will be able to join the same faction continue where your old character left off.

Persistence, in such a game, would be the goals and objectives of your group, rather than advancement of your own character.

It could get really interesting if they let each new character choose their own faction. Then people can start getting into games of espionage by purposely suiciding their characters.

This could definitely work. I can also see them setting up some sort of account based progression that lets you jump back in at something other than first level.

 

[Haly]

Really if anything is going to hurt them, it's Dust and the massive boneheaded move of making it PS3 exclusive.

I don't think it'll matter much. DUST514 looks nice, and it appeals to the dudebro shooter crowd, who always have ridiculous amounts of purchasing power. I don't think they're going to take a loss on it or anything.

But yeah, CCP knows how to create a freeform MMO. They are probably the best company in the industry to attempt something like this. Have more faith people.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

why would someone pay a monthly fee and play for hundreds of hours only to have all that time and money be thrown away when the character dies?

Because avarice is bad. Permadeath is a very brutal mechanic, but it is very effective at showing things more important in a game than amassing loot (especially in certain games where that's transformed into the assurance of more collectathoning).

And still shit like this happens many times a day in MMO's around the world, IF you can kill another player some people WILL.

Currently in the MMO I'm playing, there are lvl 135-150 chars going PK on anything lower then them just because they can.

Not because they can, it's because they cannot win on even terms. Hence why they're where they are plucking low-hanging fruit. This has always been truth.

 

[WrikaWrek]

Permadeath makes sense if you make areas specific to it. Like that big area only the bold travel to.