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[Shurs]

Brilliant.

 

[water_wendi]

Right. It's Vampire: the Masquerade (essentially.) Unless you choose to remain mortal (in which case you have very much invited it) it will be very difficult to kill your character in the fiction -- and just reducing you to zero life certainly won't do it. It's very likely a set of systems in which certain events can kill a vampire character permanently, and others can set them back quite a bit, but most of the time you'll "die" and come back soon after.

If they are going by WoD stuff Vampires die all the time. A gunshot can bring Final Death if the damage is severe enough. WoD Vampires dont need special circumstances in order to die (stake in heart, decapitation, etc).

 

[water_wendi]

Sounds like a real MMO, instead of a subscription-based amusement park instance-fest. I'm in.

im trying to think of an MMO that has permadeath. What am i missing? Theres Hardcore in D2 but thats a choice to make. How will people react if they are forced to play a character that will go away forever if there is too much lag?

 

[Aselith]

This game will either die or go free to play within 6 months. People are going to quit in droves when they lose their hard work.

Just like EVE.

I don't think the possibility of permadeath means it's going to be as simple as getting killed. I'm guessing it won't be as easy as killing you in a duel to cause permadeath. CCP are smart and they know how to do real consequences in their games. I'm certain they'll find a good balance between vulnerability that they're known for and the invulnerability that most MMO's give you.

 

[Nora Kisaragi]

Ahem...things like this lead to stupid people dying.

Anyone else remember that EQOA Hardcore mode suicide?

 

[TheSeks]

Perma-Death and CCP = Not going to try. Call me a carebear, but being trolled by level 50 Goonswarms as a level 1 Newbie doesn't sound that great to me.

 

[Aselith]

Ahem...things like this lead to stupid people dying.

Anyone else remember that EQOA Hardcore mode suicide?

EVE already had this in a sense. You actually play as your ship in EVE and if the ship is destroyed then it's just gone. People have lost hugely expensive ships and literally tens of thousands of real dollars worth of items because CCP set the game up that way.

That mechanic leads to some of the most compelling events in any MMO whether you actually play the game or not. It's just interesting reading about it.

http://eve.klaki.net/heist/

 

[Grayman]

im trying to think of an MMO that has permadeath. What am i missing? Theres Hardcore in D2 but thats a choice to make. How will people react if they are forced to play a character that will go away forever if there is too much lag?

nothing is coming to my mind either but Eve, Shadowbane, and Darkfall have destruction of property and financial failure.

 

[water_wendi]

nothing is coming to my mind either but Eve, Shadowbane, and Darkfall have destruction of property and financial failure.

If people really want an experience where permadeath is featured just do it voluntarily please. When their character dies they should be the ones to delete their character and start over if thats what they really wish. How many people in this thread that are excited about this permadeath news do this? You can give Wow that PnP feeling!

 

[Emitan]

If people really want an experience where permadeath is featured just do it voluntarily please. When their character dies they should be the ones to delete their character and start over if thats what they really wish. How many people in this thread that are excited about this permadeath news do this? You can give Wow that PnP feeling!

How does that make sense? Instead of people who want perma death getting an MMO with permadeath, they should play an MMO completely not designed with it in mind and have a terrible experience instead?

 

[Aselith]

If people really want an experience where permadeath is featured just do it voluntarily please. When their character dies they should be the ones to delete their character and start over if thats what they really wish. How many people in this thread that are excited about this permadeath news do this? You can give Wow that PnP feeling!

Or you could just play something else? I'd like to try an MMO with permadeath. I may not end up liking it but at least they're doing something new and innovative. That will separate them from a field full of WOW-clones pretending they're the next big thing.

Enjoy Old Republic! Looks like Blizzard made a great game there.

 

[water_wendi]

How does that make sense? Instead of people who want perma death getting an MMO with permadeath, they should play an MMO completely not designed with it in mind and have a terrible experience instead?

Which MMOs have permadeath?

edit: And wtf does designed with permadeath in mind mean? Permadeath means when you die you reroll and start over. There isnt any special gameplay design that makes it "work."

 

[Emitan]

Which MMOs have permadeath?

The MMO this thread is about?

 

[Aselith]

Which MMOs have permadeath?

That's the point.

 

[water_wendi]

Enjoy Old Republic! Looks like Blizzard made a great game there.

Enjoy your perma lag death.

The MMO this thread is about?

Exactly. CCP might be able to make a sandbox universe where people make their own fun but there is no way they are going to be able to make a decent game here. Their lack of understanding shows with every scrap of news that comes out.

edit: And their total mistreatment and lack of ability might not mean anything to you but they are using a franchise i hold dear so im not just going to accept bullshit i hear and hope for the best.

 

[The_Player]

I don't like it. EVE online had brutal death penalties that make things feel more tense but also can ruin the game. And even they didn't have perma death. Just the ship.

Edit: Wait, this is CCCP? Oh god, what madness will this MMO have?

They're CCP, not USSR.

 

[water_wendi]

I'm not referring specifically to permadeath. I happened to read the entire description. It sounds like a world where the players actually have an impact as a whole, with factions and such. There's even a single server, instead of splitting up people all over the place. It seems like the goal is actually massively multiplayer gaming, not herding off people into minuscule groups to run from point A to point B in an instance.

That sounds more true to PnP roots than anything else.

 

[NullPointer]

What possible benefits and positive experiences can come about from permadeath?

I see a lot of upset players in their future.

 

[J-Rzez]

Perma-Death and CCP = Not going to try. Call me a carebear, but being trolled by level 50 Goonswarms as a level 1 Newbie doesn't sound that great to me.

You don't go after the level 1 toons. You go after the level 30-40 toons that you can still face roll since that's the sweet spot where they invested a lot of time into their toon just to have it wiped away. Though I 'm sure it won't work like that, as long as you buy for real money "Soul Jelly" that doesn't allow you to die permanently.

 

[water_wendi]

I didn't say anything about caring about PnP roots. I don't play Vampire.

i wasnt directly responding to you but i was just making an observation that the standard MMO experience of instance running was closer to the PnP roots than permadeath. i apologize. i should have been more clear in my post.

I'd certainly play a game that has all the trappings of a real PnP game, though. Get the same group together online, play through content with heavy consequences and lots of opportunity for moral decisions and such... I'm trying to get my friend to play Mask of the Betrayer with me, in fact, which from what I've read seems like it might come close? I haven't played more than the first couple hours of the base campaign.

But we're talking about an MMO. I'm much more interested in exploring worlds that feel cohesive. I'm happy to play other games and skip the subscriptions and F2P nonsense of heavily instanced games.

The problem is that these kinds of things are not possible in video games let alone MMOs. Even the best such as Torment or MotB are extremely limiting due to the nature of the medium. MMOs have had nothing in this regard, ever. The only thing that would come close would be persistent worlds in NWN but those are run by DMs.

 

[Desaan]

I wonder which is tougher, perma death or trying to get a rez in Kedge Keep. Either way, both suck major balls!

But go on CCP, you have my attention....

 

[Emitan]

Exactly. CCP might be able to make a sandbox universe where people make their own fun but there is no way they are going to be able to make a decent game here. Their lack of understanding shows with every scrap of news that comes out.

Have you played EVE? It's a hardcore game where there's real loss when you screw up. Losing a ship could mean losing weeks or months worth of work. Especially when that ship was carrying in game items redeemable for game time. People play the game. They love it. It's successful. Why are you pretending CCP is suddenly a shit tier developer who has know idea how to make an MMO?

 

[Apath]

What possible benefits and positive experiences can come about from permadeath?

I see a lot of upset players in their future.

People treating their actions and role in the world a bit more seriously? Immersion? Can't forget a sense of danger that cannot be replicated in many other MMOs, and certainly not to the same scale as this.

There are a hundred reasons why this can be great and a hundred why it can be terrible. But there are also a billion other MMOs that don't include permadeath, and seemingly just one that will.

 

[GDGF]

This sounds awesome.

I played Vampire The Masquerade (pen and paper) a ton back in the day and loved it. Looking forward to this muchly.

 

[charsace]

Enjoy your perma lag death.


Exactly. CCP might be able to make a sandbox universe where people make their own fun but there is no way they are going to be able to make a decent game here. Their lack of understanding shows with every scrap of news that comes out.

edit: And their total mistreatment and lack of ability might not mean anything to you but they are using a franchise i hold dear so im not just going to accept bullshit i hear and hope for the best.

They currently have one of the best mmo's around. You really think they don't know how to make a good one?

 

[Aselith]

They currently have one of the best mmo's around. You really think they don't know how to make a good one?

He also thinks Valve is a shitty dev so...

 

[Forkball]

No buy unless I can wear the heads of other players as accessories.

 

[Emitan]

He also thinks Valve is a shitty dev so...

It's not that they're shit. It's that they've only developed 2 or 3 games. The rest were games made by poor little indie teams that Valve stole and put their name on.

 

[water_wendi]

Have you played EVE? It's a hardcore game where there's real loss when you screw up. Losing a ship could mean losing weeks or months worth of work. Especially when that ship was carrying in game items redeemable for game time. People play the game. They love it. It's successful. Why are you pretending CCP is suddenly a shit tier developer who has know idea how to make an MMO?

Because EVE is EVE. This is WoD. CCP has made nothing and demonstrated nothing that gives me any hope that they can pull off a MMO game based on a PnP game centered on storytelling.

And i have played EVE. i was there at launch. The hardcoreness or whatever you want to call it did not deter me. The bland gameplay did. CCP is Zyngas ugly, unpopular cousin imo.

 

[NullPointer]

People treating their actions and role in the world a bit more seriously? Immersion? Can't forget a sense of danger that cannot be replicated in many other MMOs, and certainly not to the same scale as this.

If you were only playing with only your friends I'd give the idea more of a chance, and only the smallest of one. But this is going to be an online game, with systems and mechanics gamed by strangers.

At least in an actual pnp RPG game death can be handled in a way that advances the plot, gives some closure to a character arc, and doesn't leave frustrated and angry players.

The key to MMOs is persistence - to lose all of that because something goes wrong, or you got ganked, or any of the millions of other ways players get killed in online games just seems like a recipe for disaster. Eve is already very hardcore, but even that game includes cloning and insurance, because at the end of the day game systems are imperfect and players are paying to enjoy themselves, not grind for months on end only to watch everything they have done go up in smoke.

I'd like to know more though, as they have to include some mechanism to ameliorate players and keep them from just canceling outright.

 

[Togglesworlh]

The best part is if you don't like the idea, you don't have to play, since there are a billion MMOs out there exactly like WoW.

 

[charsace]

Because EVE is EVE. This is WoD. CCP has made nothing and demonstrated nothing that gives me any hope that they can pull off a MMO game based on a PnP game centered on storytelling.

And i have played EVE. i was there at launch. The hardcoreness or whatever you want to call it did not deter me. The bland gameplay did. CCP is Zyngas ugly, unpopular cousin imo.

They are going to probably build a world where users create the stories from what they do.

 

[NullPointer]

The best part is if you don't like the idea, you don't have to play, since there are a billion MMOs out there exactly like WoW.

Truly the best part, yes.

 

[mr stroke]

I'm sold. A ccp MMO set in a modern setting with nudity and hardcore permadeath is exactly what this wow-clone genre needs.

+1

 

[Pollux]

This is the first I've heard of this game...so a Vampire: The Masquerade MMO....where the hell do I sign up? When is the ball park time frame for release?

 

[cj_iwakura]

This is the first I've heard of this game...so a Vampire: The Masquerade MMO....where the hell do I sign up? When is the ball park time frame for release?

That's the big question.

 

[The_Player]

This is the first I've heard of this game...so a Vampire: The Masquerade MMO....where the hell do I sign up? When is the ball park time frame for release?

It's CCP, they can make their new game for like 3 more years. And I'm serious, we'd better pray for some in-game video to be published, than actually expect any soon release.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I'm a huge V:TM fan, and I still wish they'd gone with NWoD Mage/Werewolf/Vampire instead of just V:TM.

V:TM's got huge potential, but Mage would have been amazing. I guess that's a lot to expect, though.

 

[water_wendi]

The best part is if you don't like the idea, you don't have to play, since there are a billion MMOs out there exactly like WoW.

If this was some property or franchise i never heard about i wouldnt even care. Thats not the case however. This is something where almost half of my life has been involved with. i love WoD more than any rpg system. More than AD&D. More than Shadowrun. More than Rifts. More than Underground. More than Call of Cthulhu. How this game comes along might not mean anything to you and others in this thread but it means a ton to me.

 

[NullPointer]

If this was some property or franchise i never heard about i wouldnt even care. Thats not the case however. This is something where almost half of my life has been involved with. i love WoD more than any rpg system. More than AD&D. More than Shadowrun. More than Rifts. More than Underground. More than Rifts. How this game comes along might not mean anything to you and others in this thread but it means a ton to me.

I can understand where you're coming from. World of Darkness was a sea change in the world of RPGs at the time. And the entire world they created was just colossal in scope and subtlety.

Funny but I don't remember permadeath being a core feature of their games.

 

[cj_iwakura]

If this was some property or franchise i never heard about i wouldnt even care. Thats not the case however. This is something where almost half of my life has been involved with. i love WoD more than any rpg system. More than AD&D. More than Shadowrun. More than Rifts. More than Underground. More than Call of Cthulhu. How this game comes along might not mean anything to you and others in this thread but it means a ton to me.

Then you should stop worrying. CCP own White Wolf. I think they know what they're doing.

 

[water_wendi]

I can understand where you're coming from. World of Darkness was a sea change in the world of RPGs at the time. And the entire world they created was just colossal in scope and subtlety.

Funny but I don't remember permadeath being a core feature of their games.

Permadeath is not a feature in any rpg i can think of barring Call of Cthulhu. Of all the games ive played i used to have a folder with hundreds of characters for dozens of systems all still alive or retired. i only had a handful of characters that died and only a couple were dumb things from crap DMs. The rest were very special collaborative stories i did with old friends that came to a close.

Then you should stop worrying. CCP own White Wolf. I think they know what they're doing.

That they muscle their way into something they didnt create with money means nothing to me.

 

[NullPointer]

Permadeath is not a feature in any rpg i can think of barring Call of Cthulhu. Of all the games ive played i used to have a folder with hundreds of characters for dozens of systems all still alive or retired. i only had a handful of characters that died and only a couple were dumb things from crap DMs. The rest were very special collaborative stories i did with old friends that came to a close.

I had the same experiences with player death. As a GM a death always had to drive or cement the story and not just act as a blind punishment for wrong actions.

What worries me is player deaths that occur from no direct fault of your own, through trickery or lack of attention at the wrong time when something like real life intervenes on the game. Leaving that up to mathematical formulas just doesn't feel right. (Theatrix was my favorite system BTW. I just used it on top of any world I wanted to play a story in)

That said, I'd welcome a system of player death that allows a player to permanently retire a character. Something that leaves an impression in the game world for new characters to benefit from. Maybe a kind of legacy system. Something player-chosen that gives them incentive to create someone new and try the game in a different light.

 

[cj_iwakura]

That they muscle their way into something they didnt create with money means nothing to me.

I'm no fan of that either, but it is what it is. I'm confident they can make it work. It could be worse.

 

[nicoga3000]

Realm of the Mad God is a semi-MMO with permadeath. Takes 1-3 hours to hit max level. Grind for good equips/stat potions (roguelike in that your stats are nearly entirely gear dependent). Work to try and summon the Mad God and enter his mega ridiculous hard dungeons.

If you die, your stuff is thrown on the ground and your character is gone. Sometimes, people save it for you...99% of the time, it's gone. You can store other equipment that you found for other classes or for a remake in your vault, but if that character dies, that equipment is also gone.

Definitely worth checking out for a feel of MMO with permadeath. Also, it's free.

 

[Togglesworlh]

If this was some property or franchise i never heard about i wouldnt even care. Thats not the case however. This is something where almost half of my life has been involved with. i love WoD more than any rpg system. More than AD&D. More than Shadowrun. More than Rifts. More than Underground. More than Call of Cthulhu. How this game comes along might not mean anything to you and others in this thread but it means a ton to me.

That's actually fair. I can understand your position.

But you're also a crazy person.

I'm torn!

 

[NullPointer]

That's actually fair. I can understand your position.

But you're also a crazy person.

I'm torn!

sanity is the playground for the unimaginative.

 

[Apath]

The key to MMOs is persistence - to lose all of that because something goes wrong, or you got ganked, or any of the millions of other ways players get killed in online games just seems like a recipe for disaster. Eve is already very hardcore, but even that game includes cloning and insurance, because at the end of the day game systems are imperfect and players are paying to enjoy themselves, not grind for months on end only to watch everything they have done go up in smoke.

I'd like to know more though, as they have to include some mechanism to ameliorate players and keep them from just canceling outright.

I disagree. I'm a firm believer that the most important aspects in an MMO are the people playing, giving a sense of community, and a world that feels alive.

 

[Slavik81]

why would someone pay a monthly fee and play for hundreds of hours only to have all that time and money be thrown away when the character dies?

By having the experience of getting there be worthwhile in and of itself?

 

[Sullen]

Obviously it won't be for everyone (read: loot whores, power gamers, etc), but World of Darkness was never really about that. I'm looking forward to this, and hope they stick with permadeath, knowing CCP they probably will.