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World of Darkness MMO has character permadeath
- Thread starter Morn
- Start date
Something people should keep in mind if they're unfamiliar with EVE or CCP.
CCP is not going for the multimillion dollar kind of deal Bioware is with TOR. WoD is going to be very niche, no matter what they do with it. CCP is looking to make a game that's profitable, not as wildly successful as WoW, but enough to keep them going and give them enough revenue for more interesting projects.
CCP is not going for the multimillion dollar kind of deal Bioware is with TOR. WoD is going to be very niche, no matter what they do with it. CCP is looking to make a game that's profitable, not as wildly successful as WoW, but enough to keep them going and give them enough revenue for more interesting projects.
MrPing1000
Member
I've never seen so many presumptions in one thread before.
To Far Away Times
Member
I loved the Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines game, so this sounds interesting. Looks like this could be very different from the typical MMO grindfest. I'll keep an eye on this one.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Although i like the idea of permadeath i have a feeling this game is going to be a huge turkey.
This made me nostalgia trip about my days of playing Ultima Online. It didn't have permadeath per se, but whenever you died you dropped everything you were carrying. It only worked so well because stuff like weapons and armor weren't very integral to combat. Yeah, the guy with the rare vanquisher weapon is going to hit harder, but you could hold your own with basic crafted stuff you got from the local town blacksmith. This is when you could be a dedicated craftsman, and usually they were the richest people in game. Anyways, I'm drifting offtopic.
I will always have a softspot for harsh MMOs (besides XP grindfests) simply because that's what my first MMO UO had. Any company trying to come up with the next "big game aka WoW 2" is not going to include these features because a majority of players only know how to constantly replace items with items that have better stats. I understand that, times change and video games becoming more mainstream etc.
I will always have a softspot for harsh MMOs (besides XP grindfests) simply because that's what my first MMO UO had. Any company trying to come up with the next "big game aka WoW 2" is not going to include these features because a majority of players only know how to constantly replace items with items that have better stats. I understand that, times change and video games becoming more mainstream etc.
Rare mounts are my least favorite thing they ever added to WoW, with achievements being a close second. They can turn even normal good-spirited people into huge jerks.Dresden said:
Seraphinianus
Banned
DennisK4 said:
yeah, CCP really makes games for those people, which you gotta respect in these casual times.
cj_iwakura
Member
Day 1. First MMO I've cared about since SMT Imagine.
Black-Wind
Member
Never heard of this game.
Googled for a trailer ... only find some LW offscreen BL shit from a year ago that I'm not gonna watch along with some test animation.
So ... you mean to tell me that there's no direct video of this damn game?
Googled for a trailer ... only find some LW offscreen BL shit from a year ago that I'm not gonna watch along with some test animation.
So ... you mean to tell me that there's no direct video of this damn game?
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
If its in any way like EVE, yes. World of Darkness needs a delicate touch. The game system that Vampire uses is called the Storytelling System. WoD needs more Troika than Microsoft Excel team.Morn said:
cj_iwakura
Member
Black-Wind said:
Ab-so-lute-ly none.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
The amount of people in this thread that think are thinking about their 100s of hours played character that's level 60 being killed is frightening. This isn't WoW.
I think the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup example is a good one. The game is about your knowledge of the game that allows you to progress, not 100s hours with one character.
It also is going to make faction fighting interesting. Do you want to fight with your developed character in a war, or let the newly undead fight it out. I don't know how long it will take to "level" back up to your previous strength, but I can't Imagine it will takes more than a week.
The goonswarm example is funny but true. A horde of low level people fighting, getting killed, and joining right back up with new people is a valid tactic.
Granted I haven't been following this game so all my assumptions could be wrong, but it looks like they are trying something new. As with EVE, they don't need a million subscriptions to be profitable. They know how to make a MMORPG that is profitable, which is more than a lot of companies can say.
I think the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup example is a good one. The game is about your knowledge of the game that allows you to progress, not 100s hours with one character.
It also is going to make faction fighting interesting. Do you want to fight with your developed character in a war, or let the newly undead fight it out. I don't know how long it will take to "level" back up to your previous strength, but I can't Imagine it will takes more than a week.
The goonswarm example is funny but true. A horde of low level people fighting, getting killed, and joining right back up with new people is a valid tactic.
Granted I haven't been following this game so all my assumptions could be wrong, but it looks like they are trying something new. As with EVE, they don't need a million subscriptions to be profitable. They know how to make a MMORPG that is profitable, which is more than a lot of companies can say.
cj_iwakura
Member
I don't think this will be a game about mobs. This isn't going to be a traditional MMO of groups of random NPCs beating on things. It'll be more about character created and political conflicts.
And it'll be beautiful.
And it'll be beautiful.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Obviously we don't know, but the logical conclusion about an MMO that has permadeath is that it's going to be a different kind of game. With something so hugely different from other MMOs, you can't assume that it's going to be like those other MMOs.Kintaro said:
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
How does permadeath make it close to PnP WoD?Thnikkaman said:
Because it's hopefully less about non-stop grindy combat and more of a roleplaying game? Not trying to sound blunt, it's the best way I could put it. There's plenty of action in WoD but I've always been interested in an MMO that would capture the moment of losing a loved, precious character only for a new and radically different one to be created.water_wendi said:
Ed: Hopefully with death making a mark in community.
It's slightly more grounded in reality than respawning, I guess?water_wendi said:
I have a feeling that this is an optional difficulty level for certain servers. I'd love if they force permadeath at all times (except maybe in arenas or if you pick up "extra lives") and on all servers, but I think they'd lose a lot of players that way.
cj_iwakura
Member
Orayn said:
It's extremely easy for even ultra powerful PCs to die. Even Mages.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
But what does permadeath have to do with WoD? i could see a case for something like D&D where traps could kill someone outright (if the DM was a total shit noob) but WoD? Even Werewolf where combat is a main focus (Vampire is more "talking".. retaining humanity and trying to struggle against the Antediliuvean) i dont recall myself or any ofther PnP group making new characters every session. Excepting Call of Cthulhu, i just dont see how permadeath is in any way close to any games "PnP roots."Thnikkaman said:
cj_iwakura
Member
water_wendi said:
Vampire can very much be combat oriented. Go try being a socialite to a Sabbat pack.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Sure Vampire has combat but the only Vampire games ive played where characters were disposable was a Sabbat focused game and even then the ones that survived were then given to the players for the remainder of the game. Characters werent just made over and over to zerg spawn something like was suggested with the Goon Swarm thing earlier.cj_iwakura said:
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
im sorry. Permadeath in MMOs is easily the most retarded fucking thing ever. Think of how many times you died in online games due to no reason of your own. Having my character die due to lag or the servers dying or whatever is totally recreating the PnP experience of the World of Darkness for me.Fugu said:
cj_iwakura
Member
water_wendi said:
No one's saying it'll be easy to die. It just means you can't be careless.
Samurai Penguin
Member
Perma-Death is really quite essential to WoD, especially in Vampire. It's society is a society filled with power, and corruption. Survival of the fittest is what one must always think.
If there is no perma death, then climbing the ladder to rule will be full of people just camping/ganking to reach the top. The what happens when they do? Another player offs them, and the Prince just resurrects?
That's not how it work, nor should it work.
You also cannot have the Prince get beaten and suddenly wind up 1 step back down the ladder. All you will get is a never ending cycle of players killing each other, taking control for a short period of time, then suddenly get dethroned from the previous Prince.
For a game to have real consequences and the want to become a ruler, dangers must be present. Perma death is one of them. Without it, everyone will ignore the rules of the Masquerade and of Society (Vampire and Human) and just play it like most other MMO's.
It's really a difficult situation for CCCP. If they cater to the casual/WoW crowd and get rid of perma death, hardcore fans will bitch. If they stick to the PnP and keep the White Wolf fans happy, and include things like perma death, people will bitch.
Personally I am for it. It's one major factor that will make this game interesting to play.
If I wanted something with little or no penalties and could spend hundreds of hours leveling up and acquiring loot, etc, I would play WoW or Guild Wars.
EDIT: I've had perma deaths in some of the old WoD games I would play. It's easy, especially if you do things wrong, and simply don't care about following the rules, or having friends set you up or do things like throw you into sunlight whilst you slept
If there is no perma death, then climbing the ladder to rule will be full of people just camping/ganking to reach the top. The what happens when they do? Another player offs them, and the Prince just resurrects?
That's not how it work, nor should it work.
You also cannot have the Prince get beaten and suddenly wind up 1 step back down the ladder. All you will get is a never ending cycle of players killing each other, taking control for a short period of time, then suddenly get dethroned from the previous Prince.
For a game to have real consequences and the want to become a ruler, dangers must be present. Perma death is one of them. Without it, everyone will ignore the rules of the Masquerade and of Society (Vampire and Human) and just play it like most other MMO's.
It's really a difficult situation for CCCP. If they cater to the casual/WoW crowd and get rid of perma death, hardcore fans will bitch. If they stick to the PnP and keep the White Wolf fans happy, and include things like perma death, people will bitch.
Personally I am for it. It's one major factor that will make this game interesting to play.
If I wanted something with little or no penalties and could spend hundreds of hours leveling up and acquiring loot, etc, I would play WoW or Guild Wars.
EDIT: I've had perma deaths in some of the old WoD games I would play. It's easy, especially if you do things wrong, and simply don't care about following the rules, or having friends set you up or do things like throw you into sunlight whilst you slept
Featuring permadeath doesn't mean that every death will fall into that category, though. It could very well be something EVE's insurance and cloning system, where you're only in mortal danger if you don't take those precautions. CCP clearly want to push the envelope, but they're not going to do something dumb.water_wendi said:
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Lets just ignore for a second that permadeath is dumb for a MMO (and having clones or Vita-chambers or whatever to resurrect doesnt sound very perma to me). In a PnP game the life or death of a character hinges on the Storyteller and how your character fits into their game.Samurai Penguin said:
Samurai Penguin
Member
Not always. If the Storyteller sees you as acting like a tool, or goes about breaking the laws of the Masquerade, they won't hesitate if someone plans on setting you up and killing you, just so they can get on someones good side.
I see the MMO working somewhat the same way. If you proceed to break the human laws or the Masquerade, and don't give a shit about your humanity or the laws, then the NPC's will not hesitate to bring perma death down on your ass. You are seen as a threat, and the thought of exposing Vampire Society to humans is too much of a risk to take. They will not tolerate it.
What else can they do to punish you otherwise? Beat you to an inch of your life, steal your loot and leave you to heal only to do it all over again?
WoD has rules and laws, and perma death is one of the punishments for breaking them. Maybe perma death can be a last chance resort. Kinda like a 3 strikes you're out scenario.
1st time you don't die..but are severely wounded and it will take you ages to heal.
2nd time, same thing, but you lose points/loot/etc.
3rd time, Bye Bye!!.
I see the MMO working somewhat the same way. If you proceed to break the human laws or the Masquerade, and don't give a shit about your humanity or the laws, then the NPC's will not hesitate to bring perma death down on your ass. You are seen as a threat, and the thought of exposing Vampire Society to humans is too much of a risk to take. They will not tolerate it.
What else can they do to punish you otherwise? Beat you to an inch of your life, steal your loot and leave you to heal only to do it all over again?
WoD has rules and laws, and perma death is one of the punishments for breaking them. Maybe perma death can be a last chance resort. Kinda like a 3 strikes you're out scenario.
1st time you don't die..but are severely wounded and it will take you ages to heal.
2nd time, same thing, but you lose points/loot/etc.
3rd time, Bye Bye!!.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Is CCP going to have a live Storyteller for every player?Samurai Penguin said:
Samurai Penguin
Member
The mechanics of the game will be used to determine what a storyteller would do. If they are going to make it close to the PnP as possible, then the mechanics will follow the rules of the book.
In the book, Vampires don't tolerate the breaking/potential exposure of the Masquerade. Nor do they tolerate those willing to sacrifice their humanity.
Now this is the tricky part. They can use the NPC's to follow the guide lines outlined in the PnP and if you break the rules..then you must pay for it.
But if there are already players who rule the Clan or even have a Prince in charge of the city, then perhaps the mechanics will opt to allow those in charge to decide what to do with you.
There won't be a Storyteller for each player. Each player will have to obey the rules of the game outlined by the game's rules (presumably the same rules in the book) and if the major rules get broken, then it's the players fault if they die.
If NPC's see you kill someone..or everyone, then chances are the game will do what a good storyteller would do anyway, and let you try and get out of the situation (be it kill your way out, plead to the Prince, get arrested) or suffer the consequences.
If they include Hunters in the game (even as NPC's), and they find you committing a crime..or even find you at all they wouldn't hesitate for a second on killing you, and if you stand your ground with one and fail, the outcome will be the same in the game as it would be in the PnP...perma death.
Only a soft forgiving Storyteller would let a Vampire live who goes against a higher level Hunter
In the book, Vampires don't tolerate the breaking/potential exposure of the Masquerade. Nor do they tolerate those willing to sacrifice their humanity.
Now this is the tricky part. They can use the NPC's to follow the guide lines outlined in the PnP and if you break the rules..then you must pay for it.
But if there are already players who rule the Clan or even have a Prince in charge of the city, then perhaps the mechanics will opt to allow those in charge to decide what to do with you.
There won't be a Storyteller for each player. Each player will have to obey the rules of the game outlined by the game's rules (presumably the same rules in the book) and if the major rules get broken, then it's the players fault if they die.
If NPC's see you kill someone..or everyone, then chances are the game will do what a good storyteller would do anyway, and let you try and get out of the situation (be it kill your way out, plead to the Prince, get arrested) or suffer the consequences.
If they include Hunters in the game (even as NPC's), and they find you committing a crime..or even find you at all they wouldn't hesitate for a second on killing you, and if you stand your ground with one and fail, the outcome will be the same in the game as it would be in the PnP...perma death.
Only a soft forgiving Storyteller would let a Vampire live who goes against a higher level Hunter
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
This sounds even worse.Samurai Penguin said:The mechanics of the game will be used to determine what a storyteller would do. If they are going to make it close to the PnP as possible, then the mechanics will follow the rules of the book.
In the book, Vampires don't tolerate the breaking/potential exposure of the Masquerade. Nor do they tolerate those willing to sacrifice their humanity.
Now this is the tricky part. They can use the NPC's to follow the guide lines outlined in the PnP and if you break the rules..then you must pay for it.
But if there are already players who rule the Clan or even have a Prince in charge of the city, then perhaps the mechanics will opt to allow those in charge to decide what to do with you.
There won't be a Storyteller for each player. Each player will have to obey the rules of the game outlined by the game's rules (presumably the same rules in the book) and if the major rules get broken, then it's the players fault if they die.
If NPC's see you kill someone..or everyone, then chances are the game will do what a good storyteller would do anyway, and let you try and get out of the situation (be it kill your way out, plead to the Prince, get arrested) or suffer the consequences.
If they include Hunters in the game (even as NPC's), and they find you committing a crime..or even find you at all they wouldn't hesitate for a second on killing you, and if you stand your ground with one and fail, the outcome will be the same in the game as it would be in the PnP...perma death.
Only a soft forgiving Storyteller would let a Vampire live who goes against a higher level Hunter
edit: Guidelines outlined in the PnP? What the hell does that even mean? When you lose your Humanity you dont get autoganked by a Camarilla hit squad. Your character succumbs to the Beast and you either retire the character or put the character on a new Path of Enlightenment.
To become a Geist, you have to die. I'm just saying, there are ways to prevent permadeath in WoD... but I am a massive fan of the idea. It means you won't go pissing off the wrong people, and you'll HAVE to play their games or you die.
Otherwise, the world has no meaning and it's just World of Twilight.
Otherwise, the world has no meaning and it's just World of Twilight.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
Orayn said:
Yeah. It depends on how hard it is to actually die in this game in the first place. You may face other penalties for failure before flirting with permadeath. I doubt it's going to be: "Oh, you got killed by the level 11 mob at level 8 - go and start over."
charlequin
Banned
Orayn said:
Right. It's Vampire: the Masquerade (essentially.) Unless you choose to remain mortal (in which case you have very much invited it) it will be very difficult to kill your character in the fiction -- and just reducing you to zero life certainly won't do it. It's very likely a set of systems in which certain events can kill a vampire character permanently, and others can set them back quite a bit, but most of the time you'll "die" and come back soon after.
cj_iwakura said:
Right. It's a perfect fit for an adaptation of a game where people play as super-powerful deathless vampires with incredible combat abilities who sit around drinking blood out of wineglasses and engaging in petty political squabbles.
â Narayan
Member
Dust is 2012. I wouldn't expect WoD for awhile still.Kagari said: