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[Togglesworlh]

I disagree. I'm a firm believer that the most important aspects in an MMO are the people playing, giving a sense of community, and a world that feels alive.

I completely agree.

It's not your character that matters. It's the effect your character has on the world.

I would have enjoyed my time in WoW so much more if even now, one year after I quit playing, there was still a part of me somewhere in the world. Something that proves I was there, and I helped shape Azeroth as it is today. I would probably still be playing if that was the case, but never you mind the details.

 

[bananabread]

People interested in permadeath should consider a look at Haven and Hearth. It's ridiculously archaic and grindy and you basically need the wiki page open on a second monitor in order to play it during your first few days, but I still got pretty immersed.

Memorable experiences include:

- Feeling abject terror when a wild boar came sniffing around our camp and we had to sneak around it and hide inside our house for a few hours until it dissapeared

- Building a canoe and going off exploring up and downriver, collecting food and fleeing from a pair of PK/griefers (before managing to outsmart them, steal their canoe full of loot and leave them stranded on an island)

- Last but not least, being enslaved by a cartel of evil Russians who threatened to kill us unless we came and helped them build their fort (apparently this happens every time they reset the world map).

It only lasted a few days until we got bored (it seriously takes days of grinding to get anywhere) but having permadeath with no safety net whatsoever pretty much meant we ended up roleplaying without intending to, simply because the game mechanics made it happen.

All of this was far more interesting to me than any of the other MMO's on the market, and I hope that this game does the same but better.

 

[Mr_Appleby]

Implying the developers haven't thought all the things people are raising here is a bit silly. I'd wait until we hear more, but to think that it's just going be WoW + permadeath is pretty unimaginative. we don't, for instance, know under what circumstances a death will be permanent and if there are more general circumstances that will result in less severe penalties. or how hard it will be for one player to perma-kill another.

edit: And wtf does designed with permadeath in mind mean? Permadeath means when you die you reroll and start over. There isnt any special gameplay design that makes it "work."

way to be willfully obtuse here. there are plenty of games structured around permadeath or variations thereof: rogue/nethack/roguelikes and offshoots like Shiren, Baroque, etc. arcade games, Eve, Torchlight/Diablo/Sacred on hardcore modes, Fire Emblem, Dofus has a permadeath server, Mechwarrior/Steel Battalion... so yes, actually, designing gameplay around the idea of permadeath can make it "work". just like other games are designed around the idea that death is only a loss of a few seconds play, or you cannot die at all (prince of persia) or Demon's Souls which controls various game-states and player-states through its death mechanic... death is not some separate part of the game from gameplay mechanics, it is a gameplay mechanic and can be implemented in many diferent ways.

regarding PnP games, as far as I am aware amount of combat/chance of players dying is really up to the group of players (including dm) - when I was a teenager we were always making new characters and taking turns being the dm, we played fast and loose and it was nothing to kill a friend's character just because they'd made a joke about your mother earlier that day.

 

[water_wendi]

Implying the developers haven't thought all the things people are raising here is a bit silly. I'd wait until we hear more, but to think that it's just going be WoW + permadeath is pretty unimaginative. we don't, for instance, know under what circumstances a death will be permanent and if there are more general circumstances that will result in less severe penalties. or how hard it will be for one player to perma-kill another.

way to be willfully obtuse here. there are plenty of games structured around permadeath or variations thereof: rogue/nethack/roguelikes and offshoots like Shiren, Baroque, etc. arcade games, Eve, Torchlight/Diablo/Sacred on hardcore modes, Fire Emblem, Dofus has a permadeath server, Mechwarrior/Steel Battalion... so yes, actually, designing gameplay around the idea of permadeath can make it "work". just like other games are designed around the idea that death is only a loss of a few seconds play, or you cannot die at all (prince of persia) or Demon's Souls which controls various game-states and player-states through its death mechanic... death is not some separate part of the game from gameplay mechanics, it is a gameplay mechanic and can be implemented in many diferent ways.

i get what you are saying but i should have been more specific. i meant in regards to MMOs. If there was some sort of legacy mechanic where when you died your stuff flowed through to another generation that would work i guess but thats absolutely not WoD. Same thing with inheriting items. Loot (like loot loot with stats and stuff not just items for puzzles or whatever) is not really a part of the Storyteller System games.

regarding PnP games, as far as I am aware amount of combat/chance of players dying is really up to the group of players (including dm) - when I was a teenager we were always making new characters and taking turns being the dm, we played fast and loose and it was nothing to kill a friend's character just because they'd made a joke about your mother earlier that day.

i know its up to the DM but MMOs have no DM.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"i get what you are saying but i should have been more specific. i meant in regards to MMOs. If there was some sort of legacy mechanic where when you died your stuff flowed through to another generation that would work i guess but thats absolutely not WoD. Same thing with inheriting items. Loot (like loot loot with stats and stuff not just items for puzzles or whatever) is not really a part of the Storyteller System games."


If you know that loot isn't a focus in the P&P system's mechanics, why do you assume it'll be different in the MMO? There have been MMOs where loot makes little impact or doesn't even really exist at all (A Tale of the Desert, for example).

A whole lot of assumptions going on in this thread when we've got 0 actual game details, only some concepts.

 

[jangotangos]

Have they talked about a release window for the game? It feels like this has been in development longer than DCUO or SWTOR

 

[cj_iwakura]

Have they talked about a release window for the game? It feels like this has been in development longer than DCUO or SWTOR

I think it HAS been.

 

[charlequin]

That they muscle their way into something they didnt create with money means nothing to me.

Literally like 90% of the top design team on this game are people who started at WW as writers/line-editors/developers on tabletop WoD books and transitioned over to working on the MMO.

I'm a huge V:TM fan, and I still wish they'd gone with NWoD Mage/Werewolf/Vampire instead of just V:TM.

My understanding was that it was actually a new, third WoD distinct from oWoD and nWoD.

 

[cj_iwakura]

My understanding was that it was actually a new, third WoD distinct from oWoD and nWoD.

Nope, they said at Grand Masquerade. This is V:TM.

 

[Tain]

You'd think that this wouldn't be enough to put it on my MMO-hating radar, but hey, it is.

 

[charlequin]

Nope, they said at Grand Masquerade. This is V:TM.

Oh, that's hella dumb.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Oh, that's hella dumb.

So dumb I need a source before I am going to believe it.

Edit: Wow, its true. Do they intend to just scrap all the requiem,nWoD shit?

 

[Emitan]

This thread has made me start playing Realm of the Mad God again.

 

[charlequin]

Edit: Wow, its true. Do they intend to just scrap all the requiem,nWoD shit?

Where'd you find it? None of the panel reports mention it.

 

[cj_iwakura]

So dumb I need a source before I am going to believe it.

Edit: Wow, its true. Do they intend to just scrap all the requiem,nWoD shit?

Some more info:

http://www.wodnews.net/Home/tabid/4...w-WoD-MMO-info-from-The-Grand-Masquerade.aspx

The producers stated their philosophy in making this MMO was "human interaction". They feel that is limited in the current crop of MMO's and their biggest weakness.

They are trying to emulate the feel of LARPing more then EVE or any other game system with this MMO
There will be a general CCP run metaplot that develops over time but the main metaplots will be left for the players to drive forward.
Next year is when more specific info and details will come out
Incarna is actually considered a prototype, the rendering engine that will ship with the MMO will be much more advanced.
Everyone starts as a mortal, becoming kindred in optional and can not be forced on you. You can play he entire game as a mortal only.
There will be final death for both mortals and kindred.
PvP will be more limited in some ways, yet more open in others then any other current MMO.
There will be cities (plural) and communication between them (the various kindred and clans) will be encouraged/possible.
Caitiff will NOT be in on release. They discussed it internally and couldn't find a way to make them work in a way they liked.

Casual players will find the game accessible but hard core players will have a much deeper experience and more rewards/benefits.
Considering some kind of web site access interface for the MMO
NO day/night cycle, only night.
Humanity is a stat is game and one use is to address griefers. The more you cause issues for other players, break the masq, etc the more you can loose humanity and once it gets too low other players (and NPCs?) can attack you (implied even if you flag yourself non-pvp).
Griefers will suffer both in game and if serious enough out of game penalties (ie account banning)
Helps to make friends and not enemies in game as you can not get to the top of the food chain without networking and having friends to assist you.

Players will have havens.
Players can climb the ladder and get to Prince levels of power and run a city
Can get to Prince level power without killing a single thing, all done via networking, politics and friendships
ONLY kindred on release of game, no were's, mages, etc. However those other supernaturals may be used in a NPC fashion or/and their lore appear in game.
MMO character sheet very similar to the V:tM PnP character sheet.

Character names over the avatars head by default turned off, but can turn them on.
Game world/environment will change over time; real in game consequences for player actions.
Diablerie and related game mechanics from the PnP game is "under heavy discussion" no decision as of now.
Dynamic NPC missions/World events
One world server, no shards/instancing.
Torpor in game but not used as in PnP game, used as a mechanic to explain why a kindred did not die/final death
They are aware the WoD is is a adult setting and the devs are going to not shy away from gore, blood and nudity. However such will have a reason and not adult content for the sake of adult content.

And it's been in the works for three years(going on four now).

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Where'd you find it? None of the panel reports mention it.

The best I found was a dozen different sources confirming that specific detail but it certainly seemed paraphrased and third hand. And could find nothing about CCP/WW denying it.
Making me believe its likely true.

It makes no sense at all unless they are going to scrap nWoD. Introduce a flood of WoD noobs to the setting and you don't even sell or support the game they are going to be interested in?! Great idea...

MMO character sheet very similar to the V:tM PnP character sheet.

That certainly does not imply its in the VTM setting.

 

[lastplayed]

Edit: Wait, this is CCCP? Oh god, what madness will this MMO have?

CCP. CCCP disappeared about 20 years ago.

 

[cj_iwakura]

The best I found was a dozen different sources confirming that specific detail but it certainly seemed paraphrased and third hand. And could find nothing about CCP/WW denying it.
Making me believe its likely true.

It makes no sense at all unless they are going to scrap nWoD. Introduce a flood of WoD noobs to the setting and you don't even sell or support the game they are going to be interested in?! Great idea...



That certainly does not imply its in the VTM setting.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/09/24/world-of-darkness-confirmed-based-on-vampire-the-masquerade/

"Some secrets are best taken to the grave..." While it wasn't that closely guarded, we were waiting on the edge of our seats to hear the official word of CCP's World of Darkness this weekend. At The Grand Masquerade convention in New Orleans, the developers not only confirmed the project, but revealed that it is set in White Wolf's Vampire: The Masquerade setting. Vampire: The Masquerade was indeed the old World of Darkness RPG, so this MMO should send fans into paroxysms of joy.

It was confirmed last year, Justin Achilli himself said so.

 

[charlequin]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/09/24/world-of-darkness-confirmed-based-on-vampire-the-masquerade/

That's from a year ago and without a direct quote I don't trust the noob writing the article to know the difference between "World of Darkness" (as an overarching brand) and "Vampire: the Masquerade" (that thing that Troika made a game for in 2004), I guess.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

It was confirmed last year, Justin Achilli himself said so.

This was the sole seemingly "primary" source on the entire inter-web. And there is no direct quotation or attributions in in. CCP/WW have not announced it I know for certain. But as I said I believe its likely true, but it is certainly an insanely stupid thing to do if you have any hope for the new setting.

Edit: The only way I can think that it makes SOME kind of sense is if CCP/WW didn't want to have the MMO setting canon for the setting. Its a pretty sparsely defined "thing" now. The MMO would become the entire setting.

 

[cj_iwakura]

WW acknowledged sometime ago that Masquerade is still ridiculously popular, and thus more profitable, hence all the 20th anniversary stuff they're working on. They're still supporting NWoD, but for the most part, Masquerade's where the money is.

Also, the V:TM news was all over the place at Grand Masquerade last year. I don't think they ever out and out said 'it's a V:TM MMO', but it's pretty much a given at this point.


Even the cardboard cutouts advertising it were using old world clans: Setite, Ravnos, etc.

 

[Blackface]

I have lots of faith in CPP. I think they are going to deliver something amazing.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Also, the V:TM news was all over the place at Grand Masquerade last year. I don't think they ever out and out said 'it's a V:TM MMO', but it's pretty much a given at this point.

If this was the case they would be stupid not to announce something that would be this profoundly popular. But all the sources I could find are almost certainly derived from the article on massively.

We need better info stat!

I have lots of faith in CPP. I think they are going to deliver something amazing.

Monocles have made me doubt.

 

[superbank]

I like the idea. I always wanted to see permanent death in a MMO setting. Hopefully it's fun to play. I've never been a fan of paying a monthly fee though. :/

 

[Emitan]

Monocles have made me doubt.

This game will be designed so players can't attack something to make the whole game lag :/

 

[HeadlessRoland]

This game will be designed so players can't attack something to make the whole game lag :/

Then what do I shoot to express my outrage?

 

[cj_iwakura]

Another source, if it helps.

Via the planet-vampire.com forums:

-A CCP source told him they are very near the end of pre-production and is beginning full-blown production. They in fact have a PLAYABLE version of the game, although it is so rudimentary that it is not worth the effort of demoing.


- due to a licensing issues between CCP and Wizards of the Coast, they are going to be discontinuing the Vampire: the Eternal struggle collective card game. They said that the fans could however, keep the game alive, by loyally continuing to play.

- Lone Wolf Development has been outsourced work from CCP to start generating a suite of tools to make only RP and ST easier for players that choose that venue.

- They have also hired DriveThruRPG.com to provide a 'print-to-order' service for their ENTIRE backlog of White Wolf books and resources. That means that all the Masquerade books should be easily available again. Also, to clarify, 'print-to-order' means that when you order the book, the distributor prints up a fresh copy specifically for you, and mails it to you.

Direct MMO Stuff:

- the game has been in development for approximately 3 years.
- This has been slowed by keeping up with EVE
- Preparing to develop 'Carbon technology' framework for what should provide state-of-the-art character customizations, unlike any seen in any game before, for the MMO.
- They are particularly psyched about the customization framework. They claim they have in fact, hired a fashion consultant, to help make the system more realistic and stylish.
- Another 1.5 years has been spent preparing the actual gameplay
- They have increased their staff by 6 times the previous head count
- They've put 629K man-hours into this MMO -- so far.

Regarding Coffee House, Sandbox and Themeparks that we've discussed on the forum, Burgermeister writes; "From what they said, these three spheres should be closely tied and interconnected together, essentially running the economy of blood in the game. "

The four overall themes they intended to have in the game are:
- Mystery
- Romance
- Power
- Danger

"For concrete facts, we learned that the game will be ready, by earliest, 2012. The game will be based on Vampire: the Masquerade. Specifically, in the initial release of the game, there will only be vampires as supernatural, playable characters. There will however, be elements from Werewolf, Changling, etc., likely in the form of environmental content, and NPCs."

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Its shedding more doubt. HUGE announcement about a game that has had almost no known details. And the best source we can find is vague and slightly dubious. I think what we are seeing are other people reiterating the shit in the massively article.

I retain hope its true, Requiem is a pale shadow of Masquerade in the lore department.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Well, if we're assuming it's NOT V:TM, that would either mean it's either original or based on Requiem; which would mean you'd get Ordo Dracul VS Invictus drama instead of Sabbat VS Camarilla. Yay.

For an interesting Vampire centric universe, V:TM's the best bet. If it was going to be straight WoD, then new world would be way better, since it's not as defined by predetermined history.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I disagree. I'm a firm believer that the most important aspects in an MMO are the people playing, giving a sense of community, and a world that feels alive.

"But how will I get my dopamine hit from that?"

People interested in permadeath should consider a look at Haven and Hearth. It's ridiculously archaic and grindy and you basically need the wiki page open on a second monitor in order to play it during your first few days, but I still got pretty immersed.

Memorable experiences include:

- Feeling abject terror when a wild boar came sniffing around our camp and we had to sneak around it and hide inside our house for a few hours until it dissapeared

- Building a canoe and going off exploring up and downriver, collecting food and fleeing from a pair of PK/griefers (before managing to outsmart them, steal their canoe full of loot and leave them stranded on an island)

- Last but not least, being enslaved by a cartel of evil Russians who threatened to kill us unless we came and helped them build their fort (apparently this happens every time they reset the world map).

It only lasted a few days until we got bored (it seriously takes days of grinding to get anywhere) but having permadeath with no safety net whatsoever pretty much meant we ended up roleplaying without intending to, simply because the game mechanics made it happen.

All of this was far more interesting to me than any of the other MMO's on the market, and I hope that this game does the same but better.

Hahahaha! Awesome.

 

[wildfire]

Since this is CCP I expect a very different from what is out there but permadeath already tells me players are going to be even more conservative than they are in Eve.

If you think Eve is frustrating with its long stretches of boredom punctuated by bursts of violence that makes up 5% of your average play time, WoD will not be for you. Heck WoD isn't even going to be for me; but like a dumb abused spouse I can't give up on the rare good times CCP provides.

It's slightly more grounded in reality than respawning, I guess?

I have a feeling that this is an optional difficulty level for certain servers. I'd love if they force permadeath at all times (except maybe in arenas or if you pick up "extra lives") and on all servers, but I think they'd lose a lot of players that way.

This is CCP. They don't do multiple servers unless an outside factor like the Chinese government forces their hand. The OP even says only one server.

Implying the developers haven't thought all the things people are raising here is a bit silly. I'd wait until we hear more, but to think that it's just going be WoW + permadeath is pretty unimaginative.

Seriously. If anything the first thought should be Eve with permadeath.

So that means there will be three levels of society that dictates how easily you can be killed. In the first layer NPCs will come to your aid from anywhere.
At the second layer you have to run to NPCs to get assistance. At the third layer you can only turn to other players

It also means this game will have a well integrated economy.


On top of that expect game mechanics where an older player doesn't automatically trump a new player in effectiveness.

One of the best things about Eve is that while a new player in frigate can't kill someone in a ship bigger than a cruiser (ship classes generally go frigate, cruiser, battleship, dreadnaught, carrier, titan) they can't be killed by players in bigger ships unless:
1)they don't know the game mechanisms that allow this to happen
2)they are short on cash and lack the newbie gear that allows them to pull this off.

The flaw from being newbie was that as the game got older was the byzantine skill training path you had to take to specialize your charater.
You had to branch out into a bunch of deadend paths or paths that have very steep training requirements in level 5. Skills are broken up into ranks I-V and training level V can easily take 2-4as long to train as I-IV.
Training I-IV ranged from under a week to a month so you were looking at 3 weeks to 4 months to train level V depending on which level V you were going for.

 

[water_wendi]

If you think Eve is frustrating with its long stretches of boredom punctuated by bursts of violence that makes up 5% of your average play time, WoD will not be for you.

This right here makes me rage.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I've yet to play EVE, but I assume WoD will actually have character interaction amidst the combat rather than flying around for hours.