Outlaw and subtlety rogues are fun, the class really needed some changes since we've played pretty much the same since vanilla. It feels weird not having an ability like garrotte that's been a staple since vanilla. I'm happy with the rogue changes outside of removing some of our control.
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World of Warcraft Legion pre-patch
- Thread starter crazepharmacist
- Start date
I have had a druid since vanilla WoW back when all druids were good for was resto healing and to be the innervate-or in raids. Been there for the highs and lows of the class. This patch is the worst I've ever seen the class. Totally killed any complexity or fun in playing the class. My 5 year old niece could play as a Guardian druid now.
I went from being really excited pre-patch to now I don't want to play the game at all. I'm bored; I don't want to play for hundreds of more hours this way, with these changes. I'm a one-character person so the idea of leveling up an alt doesn't appeal to me.
Questioning if I should stick it out or cut my losses now. Honestly, just thinking about it makes me feel a bit sad.
ScatheZombie
Member
Outside of the community? You realize that all of the perceived flaws of Vanilla (and most of BC) WoW are what created and sustained that community, right? The things that people didn't like about Vanilla are the things that brought people together into tight-knit servers and guilds. Without them, the game itself might be mechanically better at the massive expense of any sense of community whatsoever - which is ultimately the thing that keeps people playing for years - rather than content that only keeps them playing for months.
It's a product of shitty game designers. Your players always ask for stuff that's objectively bad ideas. The flood of terrible ideas I would get on a daily basis outpaced our actual in-office emails. As a designer, you listen to the community - BUT you have to weed through the bullshit to find out what they're actually complaining about. And then come up with a solution that doesn't nuke the one positive aspect of your entire fucking genre. There are a ton of ways to improve dungeon queues that don't involve grabbing completely random people from random servers and throwing them together. There are ways to improve access to raiding that doesn't involve nerfing the absolute shit out of every encounter to the point you can literally have half the raid AFK boss kills. There are way to improve access to different servers that don't involve making every zone populated with what amounts to player-controlled NPCs you will likely never see again.
I'm seeing a lot of complaints on my server. DPS is down, survivability is down for tanks except for Prot Pally.
Last night I was struggling on stuff I had be ripping through last weekend. And I know the new rotation, checked all the reputable sites and have conferred with other guardian druids.
Overall my DPS is down 2-3K which means my threat generation is also down. Removing my healing touch and changing frenzied regen was also a huge dick move, imo. You can go ahead and say I'm shit at playing WoW (lol) but the fact is my skill level hasn't changed, I've done my due diligence and I'm undeniably weaker than I was pre-patch.
I am assuming that the class designers have once again balanced exclusively for the high end raiders, this time with tricked out artifact weapons.
Azzurri
Member
Yea, I don't even wanna try and farm for transmog and mounts on my mage.
adversarial
Member
As a Warrior main, we are close to the weakest melee class, even at 110 - but as gear dependent as we are, maybe this will change at Mythic raid ilvl.
adversarial
Member
Fire Mage
ScatheZombie
Member
Yep. My hunter lost a couple thousand DPS in MM spec and his survivability took a drop off a cliff. No Spirit Bond means I actually have down time now. My pet, even in Tenacity, takes way more damage than he used to. Mend Pet no longer keeps up with incoming damage. The only spec that doesn't get focus starved is MM, but BM just does so much more DPS (I'm doing about 20% more DPS in BM than MM, and about 30% more than Surv) right now and has a much more fluid rotation and a more powerful pet synergy.
I don't know if it's a drop in the survivability of tanks or a drop in my healing output, but it's much, much harder to keep tanks topped off on my resto druid than it used to be too. And I really hate the change to Innervate, enough though it's finally back.
It might be ancedotal, but it feels like nearly everyone got nerfed across the board - which is never fun - because I tried popping up to Throne of Kil'jaeden for the daily; an area I used to be able to solo rather easily. I got destroyed. Plus, the zone is now completely cross-server yet that area was completely empty and every single rare was up. The one or two others I saw the whole time I was there were also just getting annihilated by the mobs and rare spawns.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Definitely this, maybe a few others once Legion launches. Fire has near universal positive reaction, it's both fun to play and powerful.
people that complain about ability prune baffle me. i lost maybe 2 skills as a dps warrior that actually had any use, and one of them i'm glad to have lost. most of what was lost is utility that actually just made encounters needlessly harder for people that didn't have enough of them. having a spell book full of shit you don't use but "would totally hate to lose!" isn't a compelling argument as to why you should have that skill, imo. if it were useful, you'd be using it.
I think it's okay for some abilities and skills to be situational. I didn't use every skill on my rogue or death knight, but they came in handy. There were some overlap skills from different specs and that's okay, in my opinion. I just feel like they pruned a lot of stuff that really should have stayed. Of course, what are they doing to do in the future? Most likely add more abilities back into the game. So ultimately we may end up back where we started in the long run.
Yeah, by and large the specs I play the most have the same number of core rotational abilities, it's mostly utility that is gone. Most of it I don't really care, only skill I really miss is burst of speed on my rogue, RIP.
shiftplusone
Member
I LOVE the new talent trees for most of the classes i've looked at.
My wife(and her cousins) were asking me what build to use and I told her just look at the talents, and ask yourself if it fits how you want to play. They were all totally okay with that answer.
Go more passives, or go with 5 more abilities, or boost a move that you tend to fall back to
Good change.
Maybe not every talent tree works as good as some but I think Paladin and mage have good trees. Probably priest but I didn't play with it too much.
I'm excited about legion
My wife(and her cousins) were asking me what build to use and I told her just look at the talents, and ask yourself if it fits how you want to play. They were all totally okay with that answer.
Go more passives, or go with 5 more abilities, or boost a move that you tend to fall back to
Good change.
Maybe not every talent tree works as good as some but I think Paladin and mage have good trees. Probably priest but I didn't play with it too much.
I'm excited about legion
adversarial
Member
MM is destroying at 110. I do not see it as classes getting "nerfed" so much as classes getting tuned for max level (110). People aren't thinking of the future, they're thinking "My DPS sucks now, I do not like this."
Our Mythic HFC main raid's DPS dropped considerably post pre-patch, and a lot of people are complaining about being nerfed while their classes (at 110) are performing spectacularly.
drotahorror
Member
Not that anyone cares but here's some of my experience from playing a few classes with the new patch.
*this is strictly PVP, I do not care about PVE, and based on pre-patch Legion. I know things change but this is now.
Paladin (Holy)
Seems really strong, but not much different than pre-patch. Your rotation is different and not as fun since denounce isn't in the game and you no longer have rebuke for some control. You're more of a healer now but since you'll likely have repentance you'll also have a lot of CC with hammer and repent. You can still pump out good damage with Avenging Wrath up but doesn't feel as frantic before with denounce spam. The DPS is similar as your holy shock hits enemies much harder as does judge. Crusader Strike is ok but really it's too risky and the HPal mastery kind of sucks. Having to be within basically melee range for your heals to be strong(er) is not a good design for PVP since it puts you at a much greater risk.
Paladin (Ret)
Seems good. Good dueling class, can beat just about anyone with all CD's and quite a few with only a few CD's. I don't like to bubble or bop in duels so I just take a loss if it comes down to that. Only way I'll do that is against some super OP shit or if another class is going full tryhard as well. Ret is still kiteable, nothing has changed there. Hand of Hindrance is cool but it's too long of a CD to me. The new defensive CD's are neat, your burst is great, your survivability with CD's is great. The new rotation feels better with that new Blade skill that gives 2 holy power. Judgment not giving holy power is taking some getting used to. No exorcism or templars verdict ranged attack hurts.
Paladin (Prot)
Never tried this pre-patch but it seems pretty freakin strong in duels atleast. Garbo in arena. Good survivability with a ton of block and parry. Good damage with avengers shield and shield of righteousness. The rotation is fast pace and you always have buttons to press.
Warrior (MS)
Insane damage with Focused Rage stacked up. Survivability is not so good but a flat 20% dmg reduction with defensive stance is solid. They're really strong with a healer as always, I don't think they're very good duelers though.
Rogue (assassination)
Alright this class is good. Rogues are strong as hell. Their opener is insane, have not tried shadowdance will today though. Their biggest weakness is their defense. One good stun and you can flop, a warrior will eat you a live if you have no trinket up for a shockwave or stormbolt. I look at recount and I don't even see where all the damage comes from, people just fall over.
Monk (windwalker)
Pretty average imo. Good sustain damage their burst isn't scary anymore though. Their fist of fury doesn't stun (at the moment) and does a lot less damage. Great duelers as always though.
Warlock (any spec, maybe except destruction?)
Affliction damage seems good, the other specs I'm not so sure. Their survivability is the best I've ever encountered in WoW. Insane self healing and defenses, absorbs etc. Something not right about locks.
Death Knight (Unholy)
I had high hopes for this spec and maybe in Legion it really shines but now...naw. This dot, kiting, ranged spec for PVP is very unappealing. The damage is pitiful, your survivabiilty goes out the window once bone shield is down your pet can be murdered, you can't deathcoil the pet for heals, you can't deathcoil yourself for heals (since lichborne is gone), your self healing is minimal with only Death Strike. There are many things wrong with this spec in it's current incarnation. I'm sure things are different in Legion but this is a review of my experiences with the pre-patch.
Death Knight (Frost)
I have not played extensively with this one yet. I do not like it one bit though. Having to rely so much on obliterate now (which is affected by killing machine instead of your frost strikes) is something I don't like. Your survivability, lol, AMS and IBF? You're a sitting duck. This spec gets shredded. Death Strike for heals. Your CC is gone too, no strangulate (at the moment) no way to spec into asphyxiate. Death grip and slows or if you can get in close for long enough Remorsless Winter can stun them. Not digging DK AT ALL.
I think that's it for now, I think I'll post this in the wow community forum too.
*this is strictly PVP, I do not care about PVE, and based on pre-patch Legion. I know things change but this is now.
Paladin (Holy)
Seems really strong, but not much different than pre-patch. Your rotation is different and not as fun since denounce isn't in the game and you no longer have rebuke for some control. You're more of a healer now but since you'll likely have repentance you'll also have a lot of CC with hammer and repent. You can still pump out good damage with Avenging Wrath up but doesn't feel as frantic before with denounce spam. The DPS is similar as your holy shock hits enemies much harder as does judge. Crusader Strike is ok but really it's too risky and the HPal mastery kind of sucks. Having to be within basically melee range for your heals to be strong(er) is not a good design for PVP since it puts you at a much greater risk.
Paladin (Ret)
Seems good. Good dueling class, can beat just about anyone with all CD's and quite a few with only a few CD's. I don't like to bubble or bop in duels so I just take a loss if it comes down to that. Only way I'll do that is against some super OP shit or if another class is going full tryhard as well. Ret is still kiteable, nothing has changed there. Hand of Hindrance is cool but it's too long of a CD to me. The new defensive CD's are neat, your burst is great, your survivability with CD's is great. The new rotation feels better with that new Blade skill that gives 2 holy power. Judgment not giving holy power is taking some getting used to. No exorcism or templars verdict ranged attack hurts.
Paladin (Prot)
Never tried this pre-patch but it seems pretty freakin strong in duels atleast. Garbo in arena. Good survivability with a ton of block and parry. Good damage with avengers shield and shield of righteousness. The rotation is fast pace and you always have buttons to press.
Warrior (MS)
Insane damage with Focused Rage stacked up. Survivability is not so good but a flat 20% dmg reduction with defensive stance is solid. They're really strong with a healer as always, I don't think they're very good duelers though.
Rogue (assassination)
Alright this class is good. Rogues are strong as hell. Their opener is insane, have not tried shadowdance will today though. Their biggest weakness is their defense. One good stun and you can flop, a warrior will eat you a live if you have no trinket up for a shockwave or stormbolt. I look at recount and I don't even see where all the damage comes from, people just fall over.
Monk (windwalker)
Pretty average imo. Good sustain damage their burst isn't scary anymore though. Their fist of fury doesn't stun (at the moment) and does a lot less damage. Great duelers as always though.
Warlock (any spec, maybe except destruction?)
Affliction damage seems good, the other specs I'm not so sure. Their survivability is the best I've ever encountered in WoW. Insane self healing and defenses, absorbs etc. Something not right about locks.
Death Knight (Unholy)
I had high hopes for this spec and maybe in Legion it really shines but now...naw. This dot, kiting, ranged spec for PVP is very unappealing. The damage is pitiful, your survivabiilty goes out the window once bone shield is down your pet can be murdered, you can't deathcoil the pet for heals, you can't deathcoil yourself for heals (since lichborne is gone), your self healing is minimal with only Death Strike. There are many things wrong with this spec in it's current incarnation. I'm sure things are different in Legion but this is a review of my experiences with the pre-patch.
Death Knight (Frost)
I have not played extensively with this one yet. I do not like it one bit though. Having to rely so much on obliterate now (which is affected by killing machine instead of your frost strikes) is something I don't like. Your survivability, lol, AMS and IBF? You're a sitting duck. This spec gets shredded. Death Strike for heals. Your CC is gone too, no strangulate (at the moment) no way to spec into asphyxiate. Death grip and slows or if you can get in close for long enough Remorsless Winter can stun them. Not digging DK AT ALL.
I think that's it for now, I think I'll post this in the wow community forum too.
A lot of the complaints about modern WoW baffle me tbh.
to those saying "I took a ______ hit"
remember, your artifact adds core ability/abilities. what we have today is not what we will have once Legion rolls out. This is a preview at best.
I mean this is total armchair quarterbacking here. "There are plenty of ambiguous, untried or failed ways to do something to fix this. I'm not going to say any of them but they're there." And the biggest criticism I have against what you're saying is.... that we HAVE PLENTY of examples of alternative options through wow itself or other games even. Of course there are options to doing this stuff. They can put in an LFG chat channel. Oh wait. Well, they can put in meeting stones at the entrances. Oh wait. They can put in raid size scaling. Oh nm.
But really at the base of it there is a direct contradiction in what you are saying. "Community existed because things sucked. They changed the things that sucked and the community dwindled so now it sucks. The answer was to not make things as good as they are so that the community can suffer together and be stronger."
You are literally creating a no win scenario. Leave the mechanics lacking, create comrardre in the pain. Make the mechanics even better, alter the community/comradre.
remember, your artifact adds core ability/abilities. what we have today is not what we will have once Legion rolls out. This is a preview at best.
however nothing I said was untrue. Mechanically the game IS better. In almost every single way. People being held together by a common struggle is HARDLY the legacy a game/service wants to leave, and while it provides fun anecdotes, is again TOTALLY rose colored glasses. It's funny to remember that night we wiped non-stop to the same boss for 4 hours straight because of poor mechanics.. it was NOT funny 10 years ago when it was happening. It was frustrating and people logged pissed and threatening to cancel.
I mean this is total armchair quarterbacking here. "There are plenty of ambiguous, untried or failed ways to do something to fix this. I'm not going to say any of them but they're there." And the biggest criticism I have against what you're saying is.... that we HAVE PLENTY of examples of alternative options through wow itself or other games even. Of course there are options to doing this stuff. They can put in an LFG chat channel. Oh wait. Well, they can put in meeting stones at the entrances. Oh wait. They can put in raid size scaling. Oh nm.
But really at the base of it there is a direct contradiction in what you are saying. "Community existed because things sucked. They changed the things that sucked and the community dwindled so now it sucks. The answer was to not make things as good as they are so that the community can suffer together and be stronger."
You are literally creating a no win scenario. Leave the mechanics lacking, create comrardre in the pain. Make the mechanics even better, alter the community/comradre.
I usually play main my priest and my warlock but damn my death knight is fun. I last forever as blood or unholy, haven't tried frost yet.
Unholy with the big abomination and took the second pet and it's ranged and then dot and run around then come in close with death strike for easy heals and boom.
Blood, damn, it's so overpowered right now. In pvp I last forever and do decent dps while my friends pick off everyone around me. In dungeons forget about it. It's crazy.
Unholy with the big abomination and took the second pet and it's ranged and then dot and run around then come in close with death strike for easy heals and boom.
Blood, damn, it's so overpowered right now. In pvp I last forever and do decent dps while my friends pick off everyone around me. In dungeons forget about it. It's crazy.
I know you say only for PVP and without level 110 but without the honor talents we really can't have this discussion yet I think. Most of the pruning that happened was aimed at pvp spells and many of them became honor talents instead, the classes are balanced in pvp based on the honor talents. So I think we have to wait and see.
ferrasvansen
Member
Well after playing around with my 5 level 100s i have problems, my main a destro warlock which i have enjoyed playing with and play well at is a problem, not fun anymore to me. Out of the rest my hunter seems okayish, so i'm kinda worried now. Got a feeling this will be my swansong.
KiefbladeMaster
Member
For sure, I was playing Arcane pre-patch but I've switched to Fire since because it's just awesome, whereas arcane kinda just.. remained the same.
Time to go demon hunter like everyone else.
drotahorror
Member
Yea several times I said now, pre-patch, not legion etc. I'm not crying about anything or screaming nerf this or that.
Pollux
Member
How are the survival hunters doing st 110? Will it be a viable end game raiding class?
ferrasvansen
Member
Yeah i think i will, besides my younger nephew wants me to play alongside him through Legion as a Demon Hunter, should keep him happy then. Will be strange leaving my Warlock behind though, had so much fun through Cata, Mop and WoD.
ferrasvansen
Member
Yeah seems a bit off, strange that a spec i enjoyed through WoD and MoP seems so crap, maybe i might go back to affliction like i did in the past.
again, remember that when you get your artifact, your entire rotation will almost certainly change
http://www.wowhead.com/artifact-calc/warlock/destruction/
Mage is pretty fun now..trying fire mage and it feels pretty good but also fury warrior love the new attack animations.
They did a pretty revision of all classes that feel better and also i do not miss glyphs or other talents ,remember this back in 2005? Yeah fuck that 5 bars full with a warlock no thank you. Same goes towards all other classes there was to much and those old talent tree's they had there charm but also not good in anyway.
To me a class and build should be meaningful and fun to play with out to much buttons and cooldowns to keep track on.
They did a pretty revision of all classes that feel better and also i do not miss glyphs or other talents ,remember this back in 2005? Yeah fuck that 5 bars full with a warlock no thank you. Same goes towards all other classes there was to much and those old talent tree's they had there charm but also not good in anyway.
To me a class and build should be meaningful and fun to play with out to much buttons and cooldowns to keep track on.
Mechanized
Member
I wish survival hunter had cooler looking moves, outside of harpoon toss there isn't much going on.
Netherscourge
Banned
You can macro everything into 1 or 2 buttons nowadays anyway.
Every single class in the game can now be squeezed into spammable 1 or 2 button macros and all you have to do is "stay out of the fire". You won't hold the raid back and you might even top the charts in many cases, if not stay in the top 3 or 4 of your role.
Been like this since the end of MoP.
Every single class in the game can now be squeezed into spammable 1 or 2 button macros and all you have to do is "stay out of the fire". You won't hold the raid back and you might even top the charts in many cases, if not stay in the top 3 or 4 of your role.
Been like this since the end of MoP.
Matrix XII
Member
It's a very good pre patch although they screwed up the camera bad. I really hope they fix that.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
It's not a class that will appeal to everyone mechanically. Though they are flashy and new. I imagine most people will have one at least to try out though simply because they start at 98. How many actually make it to 110 and seriously raid with one like I will be is another story.
<--- 30+ hours of DH on beta.
Complete and utter bullshit.
adversarial
Member
Nope.
Yeah, all three specs are pretty close. Good single target damage. Seen surprisingly few of them in Beta, though, everyone is playing MM.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Mage is pretty fun now..trying fire mage and it feels pretty good but also fury warrior love the new attack animations.
They did a pretty revision of all classes that feel better and also i do not miss glyphs or other talents ,remember this back in 2005? Yeah fuck that 5 bars full with a warlock no thank you. Same goes towards all other classes there was to much and those old talent tree's they had there charm but also not good in anyway.
To me a class and build should be meaningful and fun to play with out to much buttons and cooldowns to keep track on.
This image is triggering me
Netherscourge
Banned
I suggest you check out wowlazymacros, MacroToolKit and other macro-related add-ons and sites.
You'd be shocked how much you can perfectly fit into a single spammable button macro or two and still be highly effective.
-And it's all within the LUA rules from Blizzard and has been for years. ZERO scripting required. The more Blizzard cuts down on skills for each class, the easier it is to macro everything.
Legion makes it even easier than WoD was.
terencecah
Member
what is a very mobile melee class?
I have a 40's prot warrior and I love the charge and leap abilities. I like spells that have to be activated on procs
I have a 40's prot warrior and I love the charge and leap abilities. I like spells that have to be activated on procs
Azzurri
Member
Every Single One, besides ret paladin, LOL
Pollux
Member
Awesome. I played BM for years and just love the deal of Survival. Will probably go back and forth but good to know its going to viable for raising at end game. Thanks!
I was getting around 10-12/17 for DPS on LFR but I'm guessing that's something that should be fixed with artifact weapons and abilities. My Surv. rotation was pretty good I just couldn't get as much DPS as I used to as BM.
except that you can't chain abilities together in a macro. so yeah.
Been loving the prepatch so far, the new animations and effects for some of the classes were badly needed. My warriors attacks now feel like they have some weight behind them and look badass. Having my old tabard of flame on every character now (pretty much) is awesome, as it's my favorite tabard in the game but I only had the one on my warrior.
Disc and shadow priest are a lot of fun, I'm meh on holy. Outlaw rogue is good fun, I like the idea of gambling for effects (as bad as it may actually be in a raiding environment, I don't do anything more than LFR these days). I don't know that I'm feeling survival hunter, but I'm loving marksman again.
Disc and shadow priest are a lot of fun, I'm meh on holy. Outlaw rogue is good fun, I like the idea of gambling for effects (as bad as it may actually be in a raiding environment, I don't do anything more than LFR these days). I don't know that I'm feeling survival hunter, but I'm loving marksman again.
You can't chain abilities together with a single press, but you can have numerous abilities on a single button that you have to press multiple times, with what comes out changing depending on various conditions.
One of my first BWL raids back in 2005 in that screenshot.
But what i am saying look at all the shit on every bar..i mean that is just to much. I am very happy how they redesigned the classes.
Agreed. Having rows and rows of redundant / fluff abilities wasn't better imo.
The pruning rage (mostly talking about the official WoW forums) has always been so overblown to me. Has Blizz been perfect with every pruning decision? Of course not. But on the whole they've made solid changes I think.
That's not to say I like everything about this patch. The are some incredibly bizarre changes, like cutting down the max zoom distance for the camera and some of the UI stuff (like the new scrolling combat text). Or taking away certain interface options for no apparent reason.Overall though I'm happy with it.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Cause private servers like Nostalrius never existed with a healthy fanbase that exceeded any live Blizzard server.
Nostalgia ends at level 10, if they start farming raids then you got invested players.
Saying it's all nostalgia just shows you are unable to understand the good older versions of the game made. However, subs will still fall and private servers will still gain players. :/
Cutting the zoom distance i can agree a bit on it but i think it is still pretty solid i love to be close to the enemy in combat.
I am trying my hunter right now and Survival that is fully melee now is kinda awesome just straight in the face punching.
What i like most is that a bunch of the people from D3 went over to the WoW team for the better because the whole transmog is from d3 and it works great. Yeah it is weird on a lot of stuff cutting lots of options out seems weird like show helmet or cloak is gone for example only way to get it away is through transmog. But overall it is a solid patch with changes that was needed a lot.