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WoW Cataclysm Expansion speculation
- Thread starter maniac-kun
- Start date
johnsmith said:
The whole coliseum thing just seems to be a 'oh shit ice crown isn't gonna be ready, put something out to buy some time' instance.
If the b team designed the T9 sets, then the z team designed the T2.5 sets from AQ 40.
It seems every now and then the artists crap out a completely hideous set of armor for some reason, though I've had issues with some of the gear design in this game since shoulders grew larger than the character's head.
My most wanted feature for the next expansion is updated armor models for the rest of the armor pieces so the artists don't go so crazy with the retarded looking shoulders and helms because those are the only pieces they can actually change the model on. Probably wishful thinking though.
Kintaro said:
MMO doesn't stand for 'nothing but groups'.
There are other types of multiplayer interaction that are possible.
Even if someone levels from 1-80 completely solo, there is still some degree of multiplayer interaction. Auction house trading, pvp, just running past some other dude while questing and saying hey, or tossing a heal on him when he's about to die.
I don't get this mentality that if people don't group for every single activity that they might as well be playing a single player RPG. It isn't remotely the same thing.
Kintaro said:
I understand totally what it means. It doesn't mean grouping, though. As someone said already, there are plenty of activities you can do with other players in the world. Just doing my own thing, then chatting with someone to make a trade is great. I don't need someone else to enjoy the game. The option for grouping should be there for those who like the social aspect of these kinds of games, but it shouldn't be a requirement.
i agree with this 100%. some of my most memorable moments in WoW were those spontaneous events that can only come about from another player's actions.iamblades said:
a random heal when i'm about to die, getting jumped by alliance, an alliance player helping me finish a quest (tanking an elite), random PvP (had some laugh out loud moments when i walk around a corner to find an epic battle taking place right in front of me). I prefer to play alone most of the time but i still really enjoy those moments that you can only get in an MMO.
Freyjadour
Member
iamblades said:
It makes for a much less memorable experience overall.
In XI, when I was with an A+ group pulling off huge exp chains, I really felt like I was part of a truly online world. In WoW, the most interaction I usually get leveling is having someone swing by and steal/kill a quest mob/npc. As nice as some of the chains in Wrath were, it still just feels like checking off a To Do list more than enjoying an online experience.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
Have you done the coliseum? It's pretty lore driven and there's no shortage of bosses. I think it may be getting spread out a little more than normal since it's only being released 1 boss a week, but that and Heroic mode to look forward too I don't think it's a 10 minute job. My guild is still doing Ulduar as well. I think even when the whole ToC comes out we still will. The mace and hard mode items are pretty good.iamblades said:
They may look pretty bad, but they get a lot of hate because they're the same across all armor classes. People say that's them 'being lazy' need to learn some basic math. 4 armor sets X 2 factions = 8 armor sets. 2 less than Naxx and Ulduar had, but all the PvP weapons got a model upgrade so it is most assuredly not a cop-out.
I don't even know what tier IC is going to be, since there are three levels of T9 out right now, but I'm hoping for some awesome looking armor to go on top of that instance. I'm figuring since you're getting the armor off these bosses in a frozen palace it's either gonna be covered in saronite like the citadel is, or covered in huge chunks of ice and crystals.
@ The whole dynamic multiplayer experience debate:
Such design is possible, CCP accomplished it with EVE, although it was not their original intention. The downside is that EVE is not nearly as successful as WoW because part of the cost of making one everchanging world is that it's unfriendly to new players, which is the core of Blizzard's design strategy.
Such design is possible, CCP accomplished it with EVE, although it was not their original intention. The downside is that EVE is not nearly as successful as WoW because part of the cost of making one everchanging world is that it's unfriendly to new players, which is the core of Blizzard's design strategy.
Diatribe1974
Member
iamblades said:
Actually Blizzard had admitted (around the time of WotLK's release) that Icecrown Citadel was essentially finished (the raid instance itself, perhaps not the mobs or encounters/loot/ect), but didn't want to do the same mistakes they made with TBC in releasing it too early (like they did with BT) and then having a huge amount of nothingness for months on end.
Freyjadour said:
I've never played FF XI, but the games i've played where you were forced to group (AO and EQ mostly) to level were nothing but mind numbing static grinding, standing in one places for hours at a time killing the same mobs over and over again. That is not fun or memorable at all. Its a To Do list the same as wow questing except with only one item on the list:
1. Kill generic mob 1234, repeat.
From what I've read about FF XI, it was basically that with the addition of even more punishing death penalties. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that masochistic.
AzureNightmare
Banned
I knew it, Creative trolled us. Well played Creative, well played. Just don't do it again.
Saying "it won't work" is not a valid excuse for not doing it. It could totally work. It's just that it wouldn't be very popular. It'd be one of those niche things.EDarkness said:
EVE does it. EVE is perfectly successful, and I bet it will remain successful even longer than WoW. Not with the same abso-fucking-lutely insane numbers, of course.
Right! But like I said, it's not really a valid comparison to MMOs. I don't think you can possibly argue that it is. O: D&D is a very controlled experience, even taking the players' free will into account.
Do not misunderstand me! I'm not saying there should be no solo content. I'm saying there should be no single-player content. I know, the differences aren't great in number, but I think you know what I mean when I say that, right? D:
There's no reason the world can't evolve in ways that aren't things like phasing. Permanence is good. The illusion of permanence is bad. That's all I'm trying to get across.
Phasing is simply the wrong way to go about this sort of thing, in my opinion.
EDIT: I mean, just to reiterate, I am a huge proponent of soloing. Many times have I logged into an MMO and just wanted to play for an hour or so without dealing with other people, and it's great. The people are there if I want them. That's one of those things that makes MMOs so much fun for me. It's just... yeah.
Kintaro said:
You know, I'd like to see a comparison of non-wow mmo numbers compared to the numbers say, eg, Everquest got before Wow hit the scene.
There was a really funny quote from one of the developers (i think it was of Aion) saying they're confident that they can make second place. They've pretty much assumed WOW is unbeatable. Course, they said that about Everquest.
tadcalabash
Neo Member
Scrow said:
Exactly, which is one of the reasons I think WoW is so huge. It provides a bunch of different ways to have fun with their game.
No one way is the "correct" one, and I've gone through phases myself where I've preferred a completely single player experience, or leveling up with a buddy, or power leveling other characters, or pugging instances, or taking the same 5 guys through heroics all night, to progression raiding.
To each their own, and blizzard provides.
webrunner said:
If you think about it yea there will eventually be a better mmo than WoW. I had to split my time up between FFXI and WoW when i first started up both of them. I eventually stuck with WoW until Square patch a few things then i went back to play FFXI for a while til i got bored with it again. I'm hoping that FFIV fixes the combat system to be a little more free flowing like most others are.
Classic Dungeon Revamp
Redesigning Onyxia's Lair in Patch 3.2.2 was just the first step. As most of the leveling will take place in revamped areas of Azeroth, so too will the dungeons, allowing players to use them to level from 80 to 85.
Redesigning Onyxia's Lair in Patch 3.2.2 was just the first step. As most of the leveling will take place in revamped areas of Azeroth, so too will the dungeons, allowing players to use them to level from 80 to 85.
This alone makes me excited for the expansion. I don't care what else they do - if they were to revamp dungeons like BWL, I would cry happy man tears.
Kintaro said:
Definitely not a popular opinion, but I do. Work is work. Whether it's by yourself or with someone else. Logistics should not be giving the upper hand in any game. People act like a solo person just snaps their fingers and things get done. It just doesn't work that way. I like the idea of "one against many". Twenty-five people ganging up on someone/thing just shows how weak the people are in the first place. If it takes 25 people to down one being, that being would steamroll pretty much everyone, but being able to take that being down by yourself would be more of an accomplishment. No one to fall back on.
Heh, if you don't like that kind of thinking, then avoid any MMO I decide to make.
That may be true, but for something to be "mass market" it'll be damn hard to get it to work. I personally don't want to miss out on something because some guy who has more time than me is playing 24/7. It's just not good for the game to have something like this implemented.
What I would like to see are quests that shape the world as you do them. So if you helped the farmer make his fields better for growing wheat, then you would see green fields next season. In your "reality" all right with the world. However, if you wanted to help a friend, then you could "join" their reality as a guest. This way your world is changed by the quests you do. Unlike now when you do a quest to save some village, it's still being overun, even though you saved it. This kind of thing kills the immersion.
tadcalabash said:
In turning 30, persuing my own business and enjoying MMOs, I believe I took Blizzard and WoW for granted. It really does offer so many different avenues in which to enjoy a game.
Then I want to branch out and see what else is out ehre. I've outgrown FFXI completely. I don't have the time to group to the extent that game demands anymore and it's content isn't conductive to casual play (despite what supporters will say).
Aion is fun, but my Spidey sense are telling me this won't be the game for me. I felt "the grind" at level 17+ alone. Who knows how they will turn out on the way to 50 while trying to juggle PvP on top of it. The game definitely promotes group play, which is good. However, I'm beginning to think I won't have the time or inclination to bother. I'll see though. It's a good filler MMO.
I've tried many times to get into EVE. No can do.
I've enjoyed WAR and LotRO in the past. I bounce between them but they don't seem to hold my interest for long. Champions Online completely turned me off in beta. I wonder if Jumpgate is any good.
So far, I guess all I'm really looking forward to is The Old Republic and Blizzard's next MMO. Maybe FF XIV, but SE has left a bad taste in my mouth with their customer service and content patch schedule from the past.
By far though, the worst part of these games tend to be the communities. Consoles wars have nothing on MMO wars. WoW vs This. WoW vs. That. The WoW Killers. Blah blah blah. To be honest, these communities do more harm than good for the game. Aion's community has almost turned me completely off the game because these are the fools I'll be playing with. Yuck. Anything remotely constructive is met with hostility the likes Sony vs. MS vs. Nintendo freaks can dream.
I'm getting too old for this nonsense.
Interfectum
Member
Kintaro said:
You sound like me. I eventually just keep going back to WoW.
I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I'll end up being a "Blizzard only" gamer in the next 5-6 years. Between SC2, D3, WoW and their new MMO I won't have much time for anything else anyway. :lol
EDarkness said:
I have to disagree. Completing content on your own, regardless of the difficulty, does not compare to the coordination and effort required do complete it with a raid full of people. Thus if you reward both equally, what's the point of raiding? Everyone would just solo all the content.
In a full 25 man raid, if a few people screw up, that generally means a wipe. Imagine having to complete content with that many people consistently not screwing up. Not only that, but the complexity of the raid content would have to be dumbed down if it was designed with a solo player in mind. The way Bliz designs the raids now is usually dependent on the fact that the raid includes at least one of each class type. Every class has a specialty they bring to the raid, not only in buffs and crowd control, but for countering the boss mechanics Blizzard puts in. If it was designed with one player in mind, it would be a much simpler encounter by default.
EDarkness said:
One of the things I have to commend Blizzard on is the fact that they managed something I doubted that they could; they managed to make 10-man encounters that felt similar to the 25-man ones without gimping the encounters too much. I think there's a limit to that, though, and I don't believe one-man raids could be that interesting or challenging.
Out of interest - because it might be a lack of imagination on my part - can you come up with a 1-man Yogg-Saron fight which doesn't feel like it cheapens the feel of the existing fight?
dave is ok
aztek is ok
I trust Blizzard to do anything.mclem said:
The best one man encounter design they have done is probably that event in Blades Edge where you control the different demons and fight three or four bosses in a row.
maniac-kun
Member
to adress the problem that many players will never see the higher raids
how about a hero mode: your char gets buffed to a cant die and superstrong mode maybe with some npcs who help you (at the point where you enter that dungeon/raid) and then you can go to any dungeon / raid and complete it to have a firsthand experience. in this mode there will be no drops at all its just so that you can see all new content that you would have never seen otherwise.
for me its allways like this: i see the entrance raids like all t4 content and everything of t7 but then the random groups wont do the next step like t8 etc and all i see is the first raids and the rest i have to watch in video form
i dont want a raiding guild because i cant raid every week at the same time.
how about a hero mode: your char gets buffed to a cant die and superstrong mode maybe with some npcs who help you (at the point where you enter that dungeon/raid) and then you can go to any dungeon / raid and complete it to have a firsthand experience. in this mode there will be no drops at all its just so that you can see all new content that you would have never seen otherwise.
for me its allways like this: i see the entrance raids like all t4 content and everything of t7 but then the random groups wont do the next step like t8 etc and all i see is the first raids and the rest i have to watch in video form
i dont want a raiding guild because i cant raid every week at the same time.
dave is ok said:
I agree, that's great (although I don't quite get how people can hate vehicle fights and love this, given they're fundamentally the same thing). However, you're not playing yourself; every player who enters it gets set to a specific set of abilities.
That is a way of doing interesting one-player encounters, but at what point does it stop being "your character is fighting a monster" and start being "you've placed 10p/25cents/a crystalforged darkrune in the slot and now you're playing this arcade game"?
That's a brilliant idea. People might complain about the achievements being completed in an easy way, but I for one will most likely never see Illidan die, even though it's written in the lore that he is now deceased.maniac-kun said:
Only way I get to see the event unfold is through other guild's videos with shitty electronic music to make it feel as though it needed another level of "epicness"
I don't think solo instances are that bad of an idea. Especially if they could tailor encounters and drops to each individual class. They would finally have a place for all that spell power plate and librams/idols/totems.Kintaro said:
I think rewards should be based on difficulty, not about how many people you have in your raid. Finding 24 other people is inherently harder than doing a solo instance but it is harder to heal the Black Knight in heroic ToC than it is to heal Noth in Naxx 25 man and I'm glad the rewards reflect that.
Wouldn't Battle for the Undercity be basically what he wants, albeit applied to the raid instances?Kintaro said:
There's some issues with it, most notably pacing ones; Battle for the Undercity is quite brief, whereas even super-powered and immortal I'd expect a raid would take one to two hours (but then, on the other hand, if you're immortal there's no reason to take it slow; I await the sights of people trailing Razuvious and a huge pile of mobs to the Gothik room).
Battle for the Undercity worked because it was designed as a somewhat haphazard charge into enemy territory, it was intended for people to throw themselves into it somewhat headlong. That's not how existing raids are designed.
The other worry I'd have is that I suspect this wouldn't actually satisfy you. It sounds great on paper, but ultimately you're not *really* participating, despite what it might look like. I fear it'd feel hollow. Why dance with Heigan? Why stay out of the void zones? Why stay out of the fire? Why bother trying to stop Searing Flames?
If everything's a tank and spank - with a caveat that the tank is immortal - then what are you actually doing that's so different from Hogger?
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Kintaro said:
One of the thing that's put me off from coming back for 3.2 is the focusing more and more on the end game and the best of those who do it.
Only the fights that drop the best loot are "active" to the player base. (Due to EoCs from heroics and even Ulduar becoming overwhelmable much easier due to insanely higher ToGC loot).
Nerfs and buffs occuring due to what the best players of those classes can squeeze out of the previous iteration. (PRIESTS!!!!)
Impossiblility of focusing at all on leveling goodies post x.0. (Eighty-bajillion boosts to xp gained, less XP to level, bigger quest xp, RAF, etc. make leveling a week's work now, so doing it for new players is rather useless.)
It's almost as if the sheer speed of everything makes anything but the latest and greatest Hot "New" Dungeon *coughOnycough* is what everyone is doing, and a month later everyone's sick of it cuz it's blindingly easy to get due to rubber-band gearing. Repeat over and over, faster and faster. Hose people down with epics, everyone. This is what they're doing instead of making loads of good looking T9, or a new dungeon and a new raid instead of ONE DAMN ROOM FOR ALL THREE SIZES, heh. Everyone has the same accomplishments, but now that that's possible, the accomplishments are worth less since you're getting recycled, recolored, quickly stale stuff.
mclem said:
i'm sure you mean "you" in a general sense. Personally, it would satisfy me for the simple reason that I could SEE those things at all. that's the reward in itself. Having to do the same in a group instance would also be a reward as well in that you have to do the encounter the way its intended, learn and grow with it and be rewarded with loot on top of the content.
But that's me personally. I do see your point. It's a good one.
SatelliteOfLove said:
It's a catch 22. No question. That's why I would hate to be an MMO developer unless you are SET in your visiion. WoW was pretty damn tough in vanilla because of many factors. A lot of people did not get to see the content blizzard worked hard on. Same with TBC to a lesser extent. The question become: How do we get people in to see all this content we worked so hard on? How do we include new things into the game so everyone has a better chance to SEE it?
The choice was to make it more accessable at the cost of some players feeling they are no longer "special" or "accomplished" That's what I gleam from it. I honestly can't blame them for the choice. Some people do.
I wish Blizzard would reveal some stats on what % of the userbase has seen and completed what content though. I have a feeling it would shut people up a bit.
maniac-kun
Member
thats why i will switch to diablo 3 once its out its not that exclusive and you will be able to see all contentKintaro said:
Interfectum said:
This is something I have realized about myself as well. I keep wanting to build some super hardcore PC; however, I'll probably just buy a decent, high-powered laptop that I can connect to my HDTV and become a 'Blizzard only' gamer as well (also Valve).
Nothing wrong with it, they make great games and don't require an obscene amount of time to find the fun. I'm looking forward to the new WoW expansion. I've found my niche with WoW finally after all these years. I like to casually PvE collecting badges and whatnot, and then do some Arena as my 'hardcore' activity. I'm still having a great time with the game and I can make real progress only playing an hour a day.
tadcalabash
Neo Member
Kintaro said:
Yeah, I've been impressed with the way Blizzard has improved the game in this way... straddling the line of opening up more of the game to more people while still keeping the "hardcore" players generally happy.
Lots of baby steps towards a more open game. Just as they open up old stuff and people say "Hey, what I worked hard for is no longer unique and special" they create some more stuff they can work towards.
Tamanon said:
Speaking of Blizzcon, i wonder if many WoW players will do something over there to show their frustration with the "Instances cannot be launched" issue. It's pretty bad currently and everyone is mad after them for taking so long to fix it. Some of them said on the WoW forums that they will do things over at Blizzcon, but i wonder if they will actually do something. I sure wish, the situation is ridiculous.
The updated Onyxia fight will be unplayable if 3.22 is released before they fix this. Old World instances are already impossible to play unless you want to hump the instances portals for 30 mins or more. Can you imagine hundreds of Hordes & Alliances at the Onyxia's Lair gates waiting to get inside? PVP fights will sure be fun.