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Wrong to be bitter about Microsoft's perceived arrogance RE: DRM, Always online?

What do you even mean by "start being pro-consumer"? They changed their policies based on consumer response... isn't that already being pro-consumer?
No, it's called a calculated business decision.

How would MS "start being pro-consumer"?
Let's see...

By offering an opt-in option to their online-or-bust policy.

By allowing offline play after the initial game install.

By not putting every app on your entire system behind a paywall.

By letting consumers decide for themselves whether Kinect is worth the premium.

By not forcing small devs off your system if they don't adhere to restrictions not one other platform is implementing.

By not MANDATING microtransactions in all their first party titles.

And FIRST and FOREMOST, by acknowledging the problem with their original plans was on THEM and not US.

For a start.
 
"It doesn't even make sense with digital, which Europe is starting to catch up with and the rest of the world will follow... but it makes even less sense with something we actually buy. I have the disc, I want to sell it to person X, I can't because Microsoft decided that discs are basically digital downloads?"

Oh hey bro, here's the disc so you don't have to wait 20 hours for the 40 GB download, now give me $30 and I'll remove Call of Duty Ghosts off my Xbox Live account and transfer it to yours. Thanks man!

What was the issue with this?



The issue with that is that you couldn't remove it off your account. Only "participating retailers" could. The reason for this was so the developers could get a cut out of the used game sales. Do you think that the participating retailers were going to eat that cut or do you think that consumers were going to get less?

We already get less selling to gamestop than we do directly to friends or craigslist/ebay/amazon/whatever. Do you really think that when gamestop has to pay out to developers (if they even enabled resale - that was a stipulation of this whole bullshit also) that you would ever get $30 for anything?


The system sucked and people told microsoft it sucked. You guys can try to change the narrative but it won't change how it actually went down.
 
From my point of view, Microsoft's original idea was genuinely brilliant and forward-thinking - I really do want to be able to install games from discs, then remove them from my console and never need them again, and I really hope someone offers us that option in the future - but their proposed implementation was flawed, and their communication was abysmal. So the expected and somewhat (although not entirely, in my opinion) justified reaction from the gaming community left them no choice but to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Now, how you perceived all that and whether you're going to keep holding the grudge against them is your own decision. Personally, I disliked various companies in the past, for various reasons, but that didn't stop me from buying and enjoying those of their products that I considered of sufficient quality and appeal. Otherwise I probably wouldn't be playing video games at all at this point.
 
Well, your friend is comparing raisins and pebbles.

And yeah, holding onto hatred of what MS did initially is a bit much when they've changed those things. You should evaluate the value of product in the state it has been released so far.

The fact they tried to pull that shit at all's led to a massive amount of distrust toward them that I simply don't have for any other company. That, along with the sheer lack of focus of the Xbox One, plus MS's arrogance to price it higher than the PS4 while being less powerful, has disinterested me more in this system than any other I can ever think of.
 
I fail to see what The One offered as anti-consumer. Simply because it was a different way play and obtain your games doesn't make it anti-consumer. Your games would have been linked to your account. It'd be no different than how an iPod works or most other digital medium for that matter.
 
The issue with that is that you couldn't remove it off your account. Only "participating retailers" could. The reason for this was so the developers could get a cut out of the used game sales. Do you think that the participating retailers were going to eat that cut or do you think that consumers were going to get less?

We already get less selling to gamestop than we do directly to friends or craigslist/ebay/amazon/whatever. Do you really think that when gamestop has to pay out to developers (if they even enabled resale - that was a stipulation of this whole bullshit also) that you would ever get $30 for anything?


The system sucked and people told microsoft it sucked. You guys can try to change the narrative but it won't change how it actually went down.
And really, isn't your friend getting a discount at the cost of your continued access to the game sort of a shit deal? No, the only thing that made sense is if they got to use your disc to play it, then decide they like it and buy it. If they didn't just get to be in your "family" or whatever and play for free so long as you weren't playing anyway.
 
Microsoft was pretty damn clear on it; the problem is that they dripfed the info on it, rather than going "hey, here's this feature, here's how it works, etc."

You're also mistaken.

It's not scrapped. Nobody seems to have caught it, but when MS announced their canceled DRM plans, they also said they'd try to bring back family sharing without the DRM.

Microsoft was anything but clear on the subject. Every time people asked them for clarification we got contradictory answers at first then they just tried to dodge it. It was the reason we had many threads arguing over it on this very forum. I remember at least one even got pretty massive. Hell there are still disagreements on it in this very thread that is exactly just how vague they were. Either way I don't feel like opening up the arguments over different interpretations of what info Microsoft did put out again. Mostly because with the original plan scrapped it is all just speculation now. I just wanted to point out that your interpretation is not the consensus and just what exactly the family plan entailed is still up for debate. We will just have to agree to disagree on this.

As for them bring it back and without the DRM no less. I won't be holding my breath. Mostly because I don't see how they will be able to pull it off without that DRM. Time will tell I guess.
 
People let go of that because of Sony's actions and they flooded their system with games. It took years for that to happen and to regain that trust.

MS changed their policies while stomping their feet and screaming "you assholes are too dumb to know what we were doing!" and vowing to bring the policies back some day. See the difference?

The difference is it took Sony three years and took MS three months.
 
I never said there wasn't. It certainly worked for some people. Just not enough. The post which I quoted was saying it would have worked for everyone we just didn't understand it. Kinda like microsoft has been saying...

eh, well no product ever works for "everyone" so sure, I guess what the person you quoted said would be considered hyperbole. But I also think it's hyperbole to think the previous plans would have "destroyed the industry" or whatever other colorful metaphor people used at the time, lol.

It would have been one gaming product among many, with various pros and cons, just like it is now.

famousmortimer said:
The issue with that is that you couldn't remove it off your account. Only "participating retailers" could. The reason for this was so the developers could get a cut out of the used game sales. Do you think that the participating retailers were going to eat that cut or do you think that consumers were going to get less?

You could remove it off your account by giving it to someone on your friends list. No retailer is needed in that particular case (and since the person you quoted described giving/selling it to a friend, it's likely they would have been on each other's friend list).

Of course, the one drawback is that an individual publisher could decide to disable that. But of course, a publisher could put in all sorts of checks to disable things now if they wanted to, so that's not exactly a drastic change.

Gillian Seed said:
Give me one fucking example of an Xbox On Demand game or even a fucking PS4 digital download game being cheaper than a retail game. Please.

Borderlands 2 was like $10 on Xbox Live recently. Retail price is $29.99 ($18.99 used)
Bioshock Infinite is $13.99 on Xbox Live right now. Retail price is $39.99 ($31.99 used at gamestop)
Forza Horizon is $14.99 on Xbox Live tomorrow. (I also bought it for $14.99 earlier this year). It's $31.99 new and $29.99 used at Gamestop

Hey, there's 3.

Gillian Seed said:
It's called Steam, GoG or GMG or whatever. I love the fucking digital future. It doesn't work when you are a closed platform, don't have competition and prevent the consumer from doing as they please with their physical media. No one fucking complains about DRM on, say, Steam. Because that's not the only place you can buy a PC game.

But if it's a Steamworks game, then regardless of where I buy it from, I have to activate it on Steam. Even if it's a full priced retail disc. And that retail disc is useless once it's activated.

Why is Valve preventing the consumer from doing as they please with their physical media?

Gillian Seed said:
I'm sure MS and Sony would fucking love if the only place you could buy games would be on their marketplace because you would never, ever see games depreciate in value.

lol, it's interesting that people don't realize that now the only place to get digital games for Xbox One is through the Xbox Live marketplace. At least under the previous plans, a customer would be able to get it from Amazon/Best Buy/Toys R Us/Wal-Mart/etc.

The Amazon PS4 digital store is a good step forward though on the Sony side.
 
You're not wrong, because it's not just a case of 'holding a grudge'.
We've seen what Microsoft would like to do with the Xbox, and where they want to take gaming. If you hate that as much as I do, then why just 'forget'? Don't forget. Support the companies moving gaming in the direction you like.

This, I can scarcely believe that fellow gamers are so fickle they'll ignore something that was (and will be if MS succeed) going to be terribad for gamers/consumers everywhere.

People can seriously overthink stuff... If you like the games, buy the system.

Unfortunately people seriously underthink stuff.

Oh look, shiny!
 
I don't trust MS at all. This is coming from someone that owns about 60 360 retail games. I do not like MS' s vision with Xbox and they showed their true colours when they announced the Xbox One. I have no interest in buying an Xbox One.

I wouldn't be surprised if they implemented their original ideas back in the Xbox One. MS doesn't understand we don't like their vision. And I don't like how many of the features are behind a paywall.
 
Man your friend is terrible at arguments. I mean sure his thing works, buy why that? Why not Nintendos unwillingness to put in an account based system for digital purchases instead of forcing you to buy your shit all over again
 
He defends Microsoft by saying that "At least they were upfront about it" and he feels that I should feel more outraged by Nintendo for "Selling me the same games over and over again"

And he says this as he anticipates Gears pf War 4 and Halo 5. Your friend is not very clever.
 
The issue with that is that you couldn't remove it off your account. Only "participating retailers" could. The reason for this was so the developers could get a cut out of the used game sales. Do you think that the participating retailers were going to eat that cut or do you think that consumers were going to get less?

We already get less selling to gamestop than we do directly to friends or craigslist/ebay/amazon/whatever. Do you really think that when gamestop has to pay out to developers (if they even enabled resale - that was a stipulation of this whole bullshit also) that you would ever get $30 for anything?


The system sucked and people told microsoft it sucked. You guys can try to change the narrative but it won't change how it actually went down.

They made it clear that with their system you could gift games to your friends that you already own. You could let your friends have your copy of Forza, and than you would no longer own it, your friend would. It would be tied to his account from now on.

You could use this to sell games to your friends, and GAFfers if you wanted.
 
I agree with you OP.

I have supported the Xbox platform since 2001 but since the Xbone disaster they have lost me as a customer.

I've been quite surprised actually to see the gaming community so forgiving to Microsoft after what they attempted.

I don't easily forget such actions. I'm happy to stick with Sony and Nintendo for this gen.
 
Anyways OP, nah it's not wrong to be bitter at Microsoft for this. I personally wouldn't advise it, but I myself don't like to hold grudges against anyone. You didn't like their idea for their console, and you were offended and insulted by them. Video Games are an optional luxury, and you aren't obligated or required to buy them. If you were offended by Microsoft, or hell even if you just don't like Microsoft, you have every right to protest them and their products, and not give them your support.
 
They made it clear that with their system you could gift games to your friends that you already own. You could let your friends have your copy of Forza, and than you would no longer own it, your friend would. It would be tied to his account from now on.

You could use this to sell games to your friends, and GAFfers if you wanted.

But it was a one time only thing...which is ridiculous.
 
1, MS wasn't upfront about anything. They were tight-lipped and then contradictory and then petulant as they took their ball and went home.
2. They didn't make changes by way of customer feedback, they made changes because of pre-order numbers. Their rumored policies were an earthquake waiting to erupt the whole time, but they went ahead as if nothing was wrong and their data points showed that nobody would care.
3. They made changes to win more adoption, but act as if they still don't understand why they had to.
4. They still talk down to their critics, painting them as Luddites or fearful of "the future" they originally presented.
5. The Xbox is still a Kinect and TV and NuAds vehicle with Gold required to do anything. My meaning here is that its still using gaming as a Trojan horse to target the rest of the household.

So I still haven't seen a "new Xbox" or even a new vision or understanding since the 180's. Not one they've made public. Don't give them credit they haven't earned.
 
Buy what you want, it's your money. Whether perceptions are right or wrong, they are yours. If people explain arguments to you that change them, so be it, but otherwise be happy.
 
1, MS wasn't upfront about anything. They were tight-lipped and then contradictory and then petulant as they took their ball and went home.

I never really understood this particular criticism. Obviously, whether one actually liked the policies or not is a personal thing, so I'm definitely not saying people have to think their proposed ideas were awesome or anything but...how were they not upfront?

The basics of how game licensing worked was available for anyone to read 5 months before launch. (and is still available even after the policies were removed). Is it because they didn't have 100% rock solid details on every single thing? Is that even a realistic expectation for something that is still 5 months from being released?

How do we differentiate between "here's the basic points, but the product is still under development so more details will be released later" and "they weren't upfront about anything!"

xxracerxx said:
But it was a one time only thing...which is ridiculous.

It's a step up from the zero time only thing with DRMed content that's tied to accounts on other services :P
 
MS has lost my trust and reaffirmed my convictions to be in all likely hood PC only this generation or at least for the majority of the generation. The 360 left me with a very sour feeling after some of their changes (abandoning development, making the dashboard a glorified billboard, etc) that I do not want to give MS any money that they could use to hurt this industry in the future. They killed off some of their successful developers and pushed a device at the end of the 360s life which I feel is useless and made a new console that relies on it for UI elements. I can stay in my PC ecosystem and feel like I will not be missing a thing.
 
MS has lost my trust and reaffirmed my convictions to be in all likely hood PC only this generation or at least for the majority of the generation. The 360 left me with a very sour feeling after some of their changes (abandoning development, making the dashboard a glorified billboard, etc) that I do not want to give MS any money that they could use to hurt this industry in the future. They killed off some of their successful developers and pushed a device at the end of the 360s life which I feel is useless and made a new console that relies on it for UI elements. I can stay in my PC ecosystem and feel like I will not be missing a thing.

Do people forget that their gaming PC's are also a Microsoft product?
 
The 180 that Microsoft was forced into proves that gamers are relics of a past era. We completely accept DRM for the tens of millions of tablets, phones, and computers and would throw a fit if we had to go to the store to buy physical copies of every piece of software we wanted to install, but for some reason we have to cling to the past with consoles.

If you go look up Microsoft's 2020 vision for the future, you'd completely understand the design of xbone before it was ruined by the dinosaurs of gaming.

Precisely. The outrage was by small few who in essence, insured gaming would be held back from its potential for another 8 to 10 years. We already have accepted DRM on so many other devices and it works just fine there. What's the difference in FarmVille and GTA? Having a physical retail copy is so damned overrated anyway. I just hope the folly by Microsoft to remove DRM doesn't ultimately kill gaming in the long run.

I'm getting horrible flashbacks to those PR talking points.

As for everyone being accepting of DRM...sorry look around, no, not everyone has accepted DRM (plus ofcourse you're ignoring the multiple implementations out there of DRM), it gets plenty of regular complaining not to mention plenty of rage when it doesn't work and mobile gets away with it with a little less complaining than average since stuff is generally dirt cheap. When there occasionally is something more expensive, there's even more complaining about the price due to the restrictions. It's also obviously why we see some stores promoting that their stuff is DRM-free.
Multiple people have detailed the differences between Steam and Microsoft's plan, and did you miss the massive uproars over the various recent games that suffered large DRM failures?
Plus Steam has non-DRM competition/options on PC in DRM-free stores like GOG etc.

would throw a fit if we had to go to the store to buy physical copies of every piece of software we wanted to install.

Huh? What? (Please stick to games not little software and even then there are plenty of bigger programs people buy physical copies of)
Not to mention with easy online shopping like Amazon, etc I don't think I've seen anyone really throw a fit over having the option of buying a physical game. Plenty of people buy physical games or even deal hunt thanks to physical, and then there are others who still prefer the fancy physical copy and collector's editions, and if you want digital it's still available.

Microsoft was pretty damn clear on it; the problem is that they dripfed the info on it, rather than going "hey, here's this feature, here's how it works, etc."

You're also mistaken.

It's not scrapped. Nobody seems to have caught it, but when MS announced their canceled DRM plans, they also said they'd try to bring back family sharing without the DRM.

No the problem isn't that they dripfed it...

Also, Sony had to cut down the amount of game sharing they allowed on PS3, but sure suddenly publishers were going to be okay with the fantasy version of family sharing some people think was going to happen... and that there weren't more restrictions/limitations/truths coming if they would have kept explaining, just like how we kept learning more every time they talked about the how bad the DRM, 24-hour check-in being real, etc. really was going to be.
 
I fail to see what The One offered as anti-consumer. Simply because it was a different way play and obtain your games doesn't make it anti-consumer. Your games would have been linked to your account. It'd be no different than how an iPod works or most other digital medium for that matter.

Except those iPod downloads are 99 cents. If I'm buying something for 60 bucks I'm entitled to the right to sell it to whoever I want.

Also when I take my iPad on trips where I'm without internet for weeks I can still play the game I paid for. So actually it was nothing alike as you've stated.
 
Do people forget that their gaming PC's are also a Microsoft product?

Difference being that Microsoft's influence(and profit) on PC gaming is pretty limited. As shown by their failure to try and force PC user to pay for Live and later the total failure of Games for Windows as well.
 
The basics of how game licensing worked was available for anyone to read 5 months before launch. (and is still available even after the policies were removed). Is it because they didn't have 100% rock solid details on every single thing? Is that even a realistic expectation for something that is still 5 months from being released?
As far as I know that's all we got as far as details go, after quite a few false starts and misdirections and empty regurgitated PR QAs, before they reversed course with the 180's. So we never got to see or understand the extent and breadth of their vision (that was so cool, we have been vaguely assured so often since) before they discontinued it.

They've acted like they're hiding something while all the while assuring us this thing that never saw the light of day was going to be great, because, I don't even know why.

Even the family sharing is still to this day mysterious, with people believing it was anything from one hour trials to giving 10 other people access to your games as if they were borrowing the box of your shelf.

None of this, even to this day has seemed straight-forward. Not since the reveal.
 
Difference being that Microsoft's influence(and profit) on PC gaming is pretty limited. As shown by their failure to try and force PC user to pay for Live and later the total failure of Games for Windows as well.

Not just that, but um... my gaming PC is not made by Microsoft at all. The only thing on my PC that is Microsoft is Windows and even that is optional.
 
Because you could use Family Sharing for any other time. :P

Gift to actually GIVE the game away, Family Sharing to... er share.

Again why do you think MS could somehow convince publishers to allow sharing with 10 people when they wouldn't even let people on PS3 share with 4?

Before you say it was because the MS system was going to get rid of used games and that extra revenue would have appeased the publishers enough to allow this, let me remind you that the PS3 sharing issue only concerned digital games which made used copies a nonissue already.
 
Valve is readying a solution if things get too severe.
Yeah, this. The roles Microsoft plays for PC and Xbox are very different, but if things really do get too screwed up with 8 or 9 (though it looks like they're receptive to complaints) Valve's preparing an out. And to expand on my point of playing different roles, well, on Xbox they're basically running a closed garden, while for PC they pretty much just set up gardens for you to do whatever the hell you want. And we end up treating Valve more like the platformer owner than Microsoft despite using their OS (though given Gabe Newell came from Microsoft I guess it sort of fits.)
Again why do you think MS could somehow convince publishers to allow sharing with 10 people when they wouldn't even let people on PS3 share with 4?

Before you say it was because the MS system was going to get rid of used games and that extra revenue would have appeased the publishers enough to allow this, let me remind you that the PS3 sharing issue only concerned digital games which made used copies a nonissue already.
Well, with the XB1 only one person could play at a time, but opening it up to TEN people rather than, say, two or three still left the issue there and possibly made it worse by officially condoning it with full priced retail games. Given the way cboat commented on the rumor it seemed possible it'd be a really shitty version of a PS+ trial instead, in which case it really was a huge loss for no real gain.
 
I never really understood this particular criticism. Obviously, whether one actually liked the policies or not is a personal thing, so I'm definitely not saying people have to think their proposed ideas were awesome or anything but...how were they not upfront?

The basics of how game licensing worked was available for anyone to read 5 months before launch. (and is still available even after the policies were removed). Is it because they didn't have 100% rock solid details on every single thing? Is that even a realistic expectation for something that is still 5 months from being released?

How do we differentiate between "here's the basic points, but the product is still under development so more details will be released later" and "they weren't upfront about anything!"

It's a step up from the zero time only thing with DRMed content that's tied to accounts on other services :P

At the risk of digging old circular arguments, you'd have to look at the comments made by MS execs between announcement and when those documents finally appeared on their website some three weeks later. Even then, there are so many questions on the specifics that that single web page raises that to this day have never been addressed.

I very clearly remember the half-truths, inference and outright bs (ie: later contradicted) from MS execs about how their new 'vision' would actually work. I believe they were being deliberately vague at that point because they knew if the ugly truth would be an incredibly unpopular story.

They never actually did explain how family sharing would work, instead choosing to remove the plan in toto along with their draconian DRM, claiming that one wouldn't work without the other. What made it more eyebrow raising is that they then went all pursed lip about the specifics of what was planned, rather choosing to wax romantic about how awesome it could have been if not for the shallow minded vision of their retarded customers.
 
Not just that, but um... my gaming PC is not made by Microsoft at all. The only thing on my PC that is Microsoft is Windows and even that is optional.

Really... DirectX??? .Net???

MS has a bigger influence on your gaming than you think. Just sayin... running from the Xbox One to a PC is not running from Microsoft. It's running to a different Microsoft consumer model.
 
I was greatly offended by what I perceived to be extreme arrogance from my partner, who told me recently they were only with me for my money.

Firstly I was offended by the their behaviour, for being what I felt were extremely hostile and then further by comments from them in the aftermath. Dipping into my wallet during nearly all of the dates we went on after arguing was further salt in the wound for me.

I get on with people, and enjoy their company usually, but the first argument soured me against my partner so much that I have sworn I will never speak to them again.

Now this brings me to an ongoing argument that I am having with a friend. He thinks I'm stupid for not getting back with my ex because I will be missing out on all the fantastic time together because of what he sees as much to do about nothing. He defends them by saying that "At least they were upfront about it" and he feels that I should feel more outraged by another ex for "taking me on the same great dates over and over again"

What say you on this GAF? Am I wrong to hold onto this hatred? Do you think my other ex's transgressions are on the same scale as the more recent?

.
 
Because you could use Family Sharing for any other time. :P

Gift to actually GIVE the game away, Family Sharing to... er share.

The whole Family Sharing shit should never be in an argument over the XBO ever again as it was extremely vague on how it would actually work.
 
I'm still boycotting Microsoft for killing PC support and closing Ensemble Studios. The 360's RRoD issues, their lack of games that aren't shooters, and their DRM stance earlier this year with the XBO just further cemented my dislike for them in the gaming industry.

So, I don't think so, OP.
 
Well, with the XB1 only one person could play at a time, but opening it up to TEN people rather than, say, two or three still left the issue there and possibly made it worse by officially condoning it with full priced retail games. Given the way cboat commented on the rumor it seemed possible it'd be a really shitty version of a PS+ trial instead, in which case it really was a huge loss for no real gain.

Except I think most of the defenders of MS's original policy don't believe it was this way. They think it was going to be some kind of paradise where everyone just gets to play everyone else's games unrestricted.
 
Forgiven, but not forgotten. Gotta watch them closely in case they try to pull this shit off again

This is where I'm at as well. But not only that, I have to keep watch for new stuff they're focusing on or supporting (microtransactions and possible privacy issues via Kinect). I'm only looking at one exclusive it's got and that's incomplete as of now (KI), so I can be very patient.
 
Really... DirectX??? .Net???

MS has a bigger influence on your gaming than you think. Just sayin... running from the Xbox One to a PC is not running from Microsoft. It's running to a different Microsoft consumer model.

Ah I forgot about those. What about people who play on Macs. Just saying everyone's gaming PC is "a Microsoft product" is still not correct at all.
 
Funny thing about all the game sharing stuff is that it would have probably just been a more convenient method of doing something you can already technically do now on the Xbox One.

Person 1 buys games on their account. They can play their games no matter where they're logged in.

But if Person 2-10 wants to play Person 1's games, they have to login as Person 1, and then set their Xbox One to be the "primary" console. So if Person 2 does this, Person 2 can now play Person 1's games at any time, even if they're offline. Person 1 can still play when they're online.

If Person 3 wants to play a game, they have to login as Person 1, set their Xbox One to be the "primary" console (remember, this can now be done at any time). Now Person 2 is kicked off, and Person 3 can play Person 1's games at any time, even if they're offline.

Of course, you would only ever want to do this with trusted people (like, say, family), since it involves giving out your login information. But I wager that the family sharing plan was just a way to do all of this more easily, without having to give out login information. You would have just added Person 2-10 to your "family", and all of this would have been automated. Only 2 people could play a game at any given time, the "owner" and the "moocher", and the moocher would have to be online. Which, again, is pretty close to how the Xbox One (and I think PS4?) already work.

And if the moocher tries to go offline and play the game indefinitely...that's where the 60 minute timer comes in.

That's not the same as "hey, I can fill up a 10 player multiplayer lobby with 1 copy of this game!" That was definitely not a possibility, lol. The above scenario seems most likely based on all available evidence, but hey, 5 months before launch speculation and all that.

NullPointer said:
As far as I know that's all we got as far as details go, after quite a few false starts and misdirections and empty regurgitated PR QAs, before they reversed course with the 180's. So we never got to see or understand the extent and breadth of their vision (that was so cool, we have been vaguely assured so often since) before they discontinued it.

They've acted like they're hiding something while all the while assuring us this thing that never saw the light of day was going to be great, because, I don't even know why.

Even the family sharing is still to this day mysterious, with people believing it was anything from one hour trials to giving 10 other people access to your games as if they were borrowing the box of your shelf.

None of this, even to this day has seemed straight-forward. Not since the reveal.

Well yes, but what you've just described is "not everything is 100% finalized when the console is still under production and 5 months from release". I guess I don't see that the same as "they were not upfront about it!", which implies some sort of weird malice. Not being upfront implies there was some trickery involved in getting you to spend money on something, and then pulling the complete opposite thing after they already have your money. If not having 100% solid details 5 months before the launch of a product is considered "not being upfront" then the creators of pretty much every product ever made has never been "upfront", lol.

I do think that DRM in general is a confusing topic, and isn't straightforward, which is why it's like explaining a joke: once you have to describe it, you've already lost. But again, I don't see that as the same as "not being upfront". See that Killer Instinct thread recently where some people apparently still don't understand how the Xbox 360 DRM has worked for the past 8 years...
 
Even the family sharing is still to this day mysterious, with people believing it was anything from one hour trials to giving 10 other people access to your games as if they were borrowing the box of your shelf.

It's not mysterious at all, they confirmed on multiple occasions what it would have been. What "people believed" or to this day refuse to believe is another thing entirely.
 
I'm the same. I also used to own a 360 and I'm still bitter about how they just dropped 1st party support for it past around 2010.

Oh and how they've destroyed rare and killed the PGR series.

I will never support them with the xbone and they can't be trusted. Just look at the mess that Forza is on it for a preview of their "vision" for the future of gaming.

Anti-consumerism at its finest.

This is kind of my feelings about it. By the time the Xbone announcement came around it just seemed almost comical.

The shift in Microsofts focus in the preceeding couple of years soured me towards the Xbone more than their bullshit DRM policies did. They were just the steam on the turd.
 
I do think that DRM in general is a confusing topic, and isn't straightforward, which is why it's like explaining a joke: once you have to describe it, you've already lost. But again, I don't see that as the same as "not being upfront". See that Killer Instinct thread recently where some people apparently still don't understand how the Xbox 360 DRM has worked for the past 8 years...
DRM isn't a confusing topic for MS though, as they've been on the very forefront of it, across all of their technologies.

The idea that they didn't have a solid vision, much less the details of this DRM and the sharing system so close to launch is something I just honestly don't believe.

It's not mysterious at all, they confirmed on multiple occasions what it would have been. What "people believed" or to this day refuse to believe is another thing entirely.
I guess I missed it. Did I black out again?

What year is this?
 
It's not mysterious at all, they confirmed on multiple occasions what it would have been. What "people believed" or to this day refuse to believe is another thing entirely.

'Confirmed' after the whole 180. They could have also confirmed it would have also give out blowjobs while you play. But because we the players weren't ready for it, boo hoo.

There is no way to know what the sharing plan would have been like.
 
The DRM was fine. I honestly which it went through so I had the family program.

That said, the way MS handled the ordeal was awful.

You're not in the wrong to have a bad taste in your mouth, but I think you as well as many others aren't looking at the good things MS has done. It's like holding onto the Sony account hacking a few years ago. At some point you gotta let go.
 
It wasn't arrogance.This is the problem here, and if people would educate themselves, or at least be open to accepting facts, and not so focused on making everything about them, maybe they'd learn something, stop embarrassing themselves and actually grow. I am completely fucking fed-up with this notion that Microsoft was trying to screw gamers. The 24 hour check-in was not an attempt to "screw gamers" or any such thing. People really need to get over that, and start dealing with facts objectively, and not letting their imaginations steer them toward subjective, and false reasoning. The check-in was to ensure there was no such thing as digital piracy taking place. That's it! Really, that's all it was, nothing else. Microsoft doesn't hate you, they weren't trying to screw you (they need your money, screwing you over is NOT in their best interests) and they weren't trying to control you, or punish you. They simply tried to usher in, and pioneer the digital age of gaming on consoles, albeit they got their message across a bit sloppily. They came up with a method to prevent digital piracy that didn't go over too well with gamers. But I've asked countless people to come up with a better alternative to what Microsoft offered, and to this date NO ONE has been able to come up with a better way of implementing digital DRM. And I honestly, and openly welcome anyone to try, because maybe if people have a better idea of doing this, Microsoft can adopt it and we can get to that digital point without any sacrifices.

Give it a rest now, please.

Corporate PR 101 guidebook.
 
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