I think it would be far more attractive if they kept it free as a selling point. Just because the others are holding the online you already pay for hostage, it does not mean that they should run with the same scam.
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WSJ: Nintendo Begins Distributing Software Kit for NX (Console + Handheld units)
- Thread starter killercow
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I think it would be far more attractive if they kept it free as a selling point. Just because the others are holding the online you already pay for hostage, it does not mean that they should run with the same scam.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Sony has nothing to worry about there. You can't get that kind of power in a mobile device in 2016. Not unless it's essentially one of those '80s brick cell phones, and those things were massive!
There's no doubt that it's based on newer tech than PS4 but it's still not specific in what that means. It's not like Intel doesn't focus development on only their high-end chips; they could be making refinements to a new Atom processor and that could be considered "impressive" and "cutting edge" simply because it is based on smaller silicon or what have you. We don't even know the baseline the people who've seen the demo are referring to as it being impressive; to them something on the level of PC TR2013 could be impressive.
It's not unrealistic to come under the impression that the current emulated/simulated NX environment is just unoptimized for PCs, which is why even high-end ones would have trouble running speed-accurate simulations. My guess is the NX console will be roughly 20-30% more powerful than PS4, but that isn't going to suddenly make the PS4 seem completely inadequate just like how the PS4 doesn't suddenly make the XBO inadequate. And in any case, that power will be there more for third parties b/c Nintendo's own games have gone into a direction where technical power only matters up to a point, and artistic choices make up otherwise brute force technical prowess. Super Mario Galaxy 3 isn't going to need an i7-level and Titan combination to look next-gen; it could get by on half of that and still look great b/c of art direction, just like the Wii games for their time.
I've had some more time to think about it, and recently saw Youtuber Adam Koralik's Neo Geo X video. Granted that system's just a retro emulator (maybe the most faithful one I've seen up to date though regards design accuracy), and its concept isn't executed perfectly, but it's been dawning on me how a company like Nintendo could perfect that approach, and maybe that's what they're actually doing with the NX. It would make complete sense: the handheld can be its own thing if players want it to be, as can the console, but for the more power-hungry the handheld and console can be docked together to combine their capabilities. It's not even that far removed from the idea of hardware add-ons from the 16-bit gen like the FX-carts on SNES, or the 32X for Genesis, but in this case it'd be something serious and provided Day One. Basically, you could remove a part of the handheld casing to reveal the board that'd need to slide into a port in the front of the system (like a ZIP disk bay).
The console itself would still work without the handheld, and vice-versa, just that it would only be at fuller capability utilizing the handheld's power in addition to its own. There's not much reason why this can't be feasible; the technology is there, the processes are there and most importantly it's a concept that's already been proven to work in the past, albeit more cumbersome with those examples. And most people who buy Nintendo consoles usually get the handhelds anyway. As long as the handheld were something around $150 and such, and the console itself no more than $200-$250, we could be talking about something that, combined, is a good deal stronger than a PS4 at only $400.
I think a subscription service to get games on a monthly basis is a great idea, but I don't think putting online play behind a paywall is a good idea.
$5 a month to get a couple of older Nintendo games, and the occasional newer title? If they offered a decent selection of games, I'd probably think about it.
Zombegoast
Member
I think people are ignoring the fact that both chips are on the Xb1 and PS4 cost $100-110. It's not like Nintendo is making Cell 2.0 to beat a notebook CPU nor would they put so much ram that they don't know what to do with.
Yeah, I am okay with a service like that. Just leave the online I already pay for out of the deal.
Would be something to see ninty come out with leading tech hardware, will be nice for ninty gamers for their games. But the more interesting thing will be if they step into the modern real world of online functionality, get over the fear of mean people over the internet tubes.
I was going to say I wonder how third parties will react, but then I remembered they had power and sales numbers on their side in the past and 3rd parties still ignored them lol.
As far as people talking about how Sony or MS respond, they won't react at all. Their paths are forged at this point, and I'm suspecting they're both 5 year lives for their current machines this time. I'm sure there's less R&D recoup compared to the past considering the hardware we have in our houses from both.
I was going to say I wonder how third parties will react, but then I remembered they had power and sales numbers on their side in the past and 3rd parties still ignored them lol.
As far as people talking about how Sony or MS respond, they won't react at all. Their paths are forged at this point, and I'm suspecting they're both 5 year lives for their current machines this time. I'm sure there's less R&D recoup compared to the past considering the hardware we have in our houses from both.
If NX is really going to be a platform of multiple devices that (at least partially) share the same library they absolutely need an account based online infrastructure (mainly for keeping the platforms synchronized e.g. with cloud saves)
Smiles and Cries
Member
I would rather eat crow than believing something like that is affordable and coming from Nintendo.
Bullshit
Gladly eat crow
Father_Brain
Banned
There is no question that Nintendo will finally be adopting a cross-platform, account-based online infrastructure. Iwata was pretty unambiguous about that.
How well it will work in practice, and how feature-complete it'll be, are separate questions.
There is nothing there to convince me, as it sounds like what websites claimed and wrote about concerning previous consoles before they released. We have subjective opinions on what constitutes amazing graphics, if these reports are legitimate. Devkits are not representative of final hardware (as stated in a post you quoted), and "chips" do more than pump out pixels to a screen.
If Nintendo currently need to simply make more profit, they have no reason to make the most powerful machine, graphically, since the majority of consumers these days couldn't care less if a game competes visually with Uncharted 4. If they made the system super-powerful it'd be entirely from their desire to do so, and a massive risk, and they shouldn't put risks in something as played out as the "graphics war" right now. And they probably don't want to make games at that scale of fidelity. Nintendo isn't obligated to make games that appeal to core gamers, though they likely still will.
Nintendo would be literally killing themselves to be releasing a standard system that tries to compete graphically right now, because it's right in the middle of the lifetime of PS4 and Xbox One. If it tries to be those, it could never have hope to succeed if they only start by next year, no matter the approach. This is why I say they will have an initially questionable gimmick.
Anyway, I feel no reason to trust an internet mail exchange or some vague impressions yet. These are my views on it, and I'm just hoping that people don't - again - expect Nintendo to be making a graphics powerhouse. I don't see it.
Smiles and Cries
Member
They are going to need a paid service
Would be shocked if they continue to eat the cost of servers
just like keeping backwards compatibility was a selling point for the wii u?
charging for online is just following market trends. make that money, nintendo. all the nintendo fanboys will pay anything for their mario kart/smash bros/splatoon online fix.
also, consider this: I remember reading that at launch, PS4 was losing money at every console sold ($399). However, if the purchaser of a PS4 also purchased a $50 PS+ subscription, they were making money on each console sold.
I think if Nintendo did something similar (launch with a $299 console at a slight loss, PS4 powered or better, with a $50 annual charge to use online), it would work out very well for them.
Personally I think they should keep basic online play free....but have a yearly charge for those who want voice chat/party chat etc.
That way they keep online safe and free for the younger audience, while the older/core gamer who wants fully functioned online (ala playstation/xbox) has to pay for it.
I think Nintendo needs to come up with some sort of paid service, but I hope it doesn't include online play.
Free games monthly/more deals and sales? Sure. Miiverse++, including exclusive features? Sure. More points per purchase for whatever their new Club Nintendo service is? Sure. But I do feel that online play is something that everyone should be able to partake in.
I'll accept it if that isn't the case; that is the nature of business. But I hope we can get a few more years of free online play.
Free games monthly/more deals and sales? Sure. Miiverse++, including exclusive features? Sure. More points per purchase for whatever their new Club Nintendo service is? Sure. But I do feel that online play is something that everyone should be able to partake in.
I'll accept it if that isn't the case; that is the nature of business. But I hope we can get a few more years of free online play.
Oh, I get why they might want to. But that does not negate the fact that having to pay for online that I already pay for in a game that I also paid for is complete bullshit. Yes, it is indeed 'the market trend', though.
If they charge for online, there has to be additional benefits like what PS4/XBONE are doing. Maybe a "Virtual Console Vault" or something to compete with the free monthly games.
Nintendo are going to struggle to establish sustainable online communities for multiplayer games without excluding people who are unwilling to pay a subscription fee.
This is not the case for PS4/Xbox One.
Edit: This wouldn't be the case if Nintendo achieve a massive install base, but that's some time away for NX, and it would be hard to remove access to free multiplayer for a console that launched with it.
This is not the case for PS4/Xbox One.
Edit: This wouldn't be the case if Nintendo achieve a massive install base, but that's some time away for NX, and it would be hard to remove access to free multiplayer for a console that launched with it.
Hey, Nintendo enjoys trying to excessively ease people into things. Maybe their multiplayer games come with a free week or month.
that would be cool, but I get the feeling that everyone would just do that and find ways around not having the other functions.
charge everyone, enforce parental restrictions. make the "MUTE OTHER PLAYERS" option BOLD AND APPARENT during the check out. it's on the stupid parents if their kid gets called a "dumb bitch" while playing a match of splatoon.
yeah, exactly. with Nintendo's back catalog, I think they can easily provide a more bang for your buck "here's some free games every month" subscription service than Playstation or Xbox.
Fourth Storm
Member
Both of these are very likely, and kind of what I was trying to say in a previous post about the framerate saying more about the current state of whatever sandbox or virtual machine they are currently shipping to devs.
Still, devs seem impressed, and as referenced, there likely is a polygon counter and other demo statistics that devs can use to assess the hardware target. Again, I don't think it will exceed or completely match PS4 in all areas, but I'm starting to feel like it may be in the ballpark. I know we're playing a dangerous game here, though.
Maybe NX is running a fury nano with 4gb of hbm? That'd be pretty dope, but would mean Nintendo would have to sell NX for a significant loss.
Lupin the Third
Member
When does Zen launch?
NeonZ
Member
Although that was the case for the PSP, the PSVita's support seems to be mostly due to Sony's strong 3rd party relationships in general. Note how Japan is transitioning from PS3/Vita ports to PS4//Vita ports in spite of all those being completely different machines.
Those systems all were treated as different systems too, released in vastly different launch windows, with the portable coming significantly later in both cases in order to approach the console with a more affordable price. If the NX is just the same as those, you're basically saying that Nintendo is bundling two dev kits that have little relation to each other for no reason at all.
Nintendo obviously won't make a system knowing that it'll bomb, but they should be making a system expecting limited relevant 3rd party support, and solving their lack of ability of covering two separate ecosystems was one of the stated goals of the NX.
Obviously, they've talked about that before and failed to address it. Iwata has been commenting on software droughts and promising to solve them since the GameCube, after all. So, I guess it's possible that it's all just empty words and they'll make the same mistakes again, resulting in two 'NX' that are actually separate systems released close to each other with similar but different libraries cannibalizing each other while wasting development resources, resulting in empty schedules. I wouldn't call that a sound business choice though, but it seems to be a possible path for Nintendo after all of their mistakes in recent years.
Still, exactly due to those mistakes and how much it finally cost them, it seems possible they might be trying something different this time. By the point that a portable Mario Kart starts basically resembling the console ones with some different features and tracks, why not just consolidate everything into a single game? To hope for double dippers at the risk of damaging the brand? You might as well ask for them to turn Mario Kart into an annual series if that's your only point. They now have DLC for something like that.
That effort would be better spent in other games that could attract their own audiences too and expand both consoles' library variety, making them more appealing in general.
I think the level design revolve too much around enemies in this serie. And when you begin to ignore most of them on your way to the bosses, like speedruns have shown, there's not much going on barring some platforming strats here and there.
The opposite of metroid, where foes are cannon fodders and platforming obstacles to not dampen the focus on a more elaborate exploration and platforming.
I didn't really follow NX news(it's all so confusing! I'm really curious about it though!) but imo home and handheld will have same os and same chips families but with the home being more powerful than the handheld, simplifying a lot in this case developers could just make the game for the home console and then to obtain the handheld game they should just copy/paste on the handheld, scaling the assets and doing some other optimizations.
GhostTrick
Banned
That's the most likely scenario, hence why I dont buy the "more powerful than PS4" "too powerful for high end PCs" rumours. I expect NX console to be 1tflops at best, even lower.
Fair enough, but if we're talking about Nitnendo, you're asking most gamers to play where their friends are not regardless. In that case, getting the definitive version of the game vs getting the most inferior version on any platform counts for a good amount.
If we're talking about franchises Nintendo should invest in to from outside studios, I'd like to see them team up with Sega to make a new classic style Super Monkey Ball.
Also, they should try locking down some PC-only titles for their NX systems, advertising their consoles as the only consoles to play them on (as is currently the case with the PS4's hold on Rocket League). Getting games like Hearthstone & Overwatch (there are probably better examples) would provide something Sony and Microsoft don't, as well as showing how much their online services have matured and improved.
Also, they should try locking down some PC-only titles for their NX systems, advertising their consoles as the only consoles to play them on (as is currently the case with the PS4's hold on Rocket League). Getting games like Hearthstone & Overwatch (there are probably better examples) would provide something Sony and Microsoft don't, as well as showing how much their online services have matured and improved.
FLOPS don't mean jackshit across architectures and you know it.
But FourthStorm has the most logical breakdown, which I had mentioned previously but not with the same detail, that the kit demo is potential running Vulkan for which a bog-standard high-end PC would not be ready for or have the drivers for supporting properly. That leaves you with a demo that uses Vulkan, running on OpenGL.
That'll give you a lot of frame-rate hitches.
GhostTrick
Banned
You're right and yet, we're likely talking about an AMD GPU in both these devices. So... GCN architecture. As for the "troubles running on high end PC", yeah, Fourth_Storm is likely spot on. For the others, people are reading too much into that. Industry leading chips and such: All it will mean is recent chips, as ARMv8 and GCN AMD gpu or PowerVR 6 gpu.
Lady Siara
Member
I'll have to see the demo to believe it. I remember hearing the same thing about Wii U demos and having them whip this out on stage.
I don't think it would be wise for them to sell at $400 and up.Nintendo always launches at these weird periods in the middle of a console cycle so they end up being obsolete sooner. It's bizarre. Still, games look pretty good on the Wii U already so any extra bit of oomph should go a long way.
I don't think it would be wise for them to sell at $400 and up.
There seems to be an awful lack of synergy between PC and Nintendo games. If PC companies were interested in moving their games to console, they'll almost certainly do so on PS4/Xbone first.
MR ARCADE FOREVER
Member
I agree with that. If you want play older games buy the dam system for cheap and play the games on it. Why do people feel entitled to play older systems games on newer consoles?
FLOPS isn't just considerations of the GPU, though, you need to consider potential bottlenecks or lack-there-of (see... the X1) as well simple CPU IPC if you want to make that number meaningful.
Kissenkopf
Banned
Wat? They never released a console in the middle of a generation before.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
I'm personally starting to think it's very high, and just mentioned similar in a previous post even. The idea isn't far out there; consoles did this all the time in the 16-bit gen; granted not with handhelds and consoles but add-ons and consoles (or specialized carts with additional processors).
Again, most people who buy Nintendo consoles also buy their handhelds. Nintendo wants to push NX as a whole as a unity, in the hopes people get both the handheld and console. Somehow they need a way to make the console atleast noticeably more powerful than PS4, and still keep the entire package affordable. A console + handheld architecture where the handheld can connect directly with the console the way those specialized carts and add-on hardware did with SNES and Genesis, would solve all of that. DS-level pricing for the handheld, and a console no more than $250. Even on its own the console could be substantially powerful, maybe between an XBO and PS4. But connecting the handheld can boost power quite strongly, at least somewhere comfortably above PS4.
I'm willing to bet this is actually what the NX platform is going to be, in the most obvious sense. Would be 100% surprised and disappointed if this isn't the route they take. Like I said before, the tech is there now, and we've had generations of time to refine that kind of process that was popular in the 16-bit generation. Plus it'd just be really cool for a console to have a sort of expansion port you can hook the handheld in and get a power boost to satisfy those seeking it.
Technically the N64 did, when you consider it didn't have its first full year until well into the back half of 1997.
Oh I mean there would obviously have to be some courting from Nintendo's side, but it would be a nice ticked box for Reggie to have.
Such a shame, as the WiiU was the perfect console for Civilization
I would assume the handheld doesn't get stacked on the console, but works wirelessly. That's how I see Wii U BC happening. You need both handheld and home units.
I think BC does make sense if the system you are replacing has a huge install base, but not if you're talking about a system that will be lucky to break 15 million lifetime sales.
I think if the xbone for example launched with built in BC, it would have prevented a lot of people from switching to Ps4. It didn't work for the Wii U because the system is otherwise unappealing and a complete marketing failure.
I honestly don't expect a super powerful console. I have my expectations crazy low for NX this time around because I don't want to be dissapointed big time like on E3 this year. I just hope they can deliver and bring great stuff next year because right now Nintendo in general is becoming more and more irrelevant as each day pass by. MS and Sony dropping all kinds of attractive offers, price-drops, bundles and of course lot's and lot's of games prior to the holiday season while Nintendo is just there with nothing than a Mario Tennis game as "key title" for black friday. That is just depressing as heck
Lady Siara
Member
Read a bit and uh...yeah, you're right. My memory is not so great it seems!
James Scott
Banned
Going back to software a bit, people mention Zelda, Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, and Monster Hunter but there another title that might be pretty important in the future: Yokai Watch, and there might be a bit of a problem with that franchise in the west.
There are a lot of companies banking on the franchise taking off: Dsinwy, Hasbro, Nintendo, and Level-5 and they seem pretty confident that it'll be the next big thing. Nintendo themselves are investing quite a bit into it.
There seems to be an issue with the release schedule, though. If we're just getting the 1st game now, I imagine they will want to release each sequel once per year.
Which means Yokai Watch 2 in November 2016, 3 in 2017, and 4 in 2018. Will Yokai Watch 4 be an NX game? It could release a year after the NX handheld is out in Japan but the earliest it would come here is in 2018.
Level 5 might pull a Black/White 2 and release 4 on 3DS as well leaving the NX with no Yokai Watch game in the US until 2019 if they stick to the yearly release.
I guess they could do cross releases which would help.
Was just thinking back to Pokemon on the 3DS and how GF didn't care about supporting the system so they didn't release a game on it until after it recovered.
This could hurt the franchise which could be pretty big and hurt the adoption of NX handhelds
Do you guys think this is a problem or no?
There are a lot of companies banking on the franchise taking off: Dsinwy, Hasbro, Nintendo, and Level-5 and they seem pretty confident that it'll be the next big thing. Nintendo themselves are investing quite a bit into it.
There seems to be an issue with the release schedule, though. If we're just getting the 1st game now, I imagine they will want to release each sequel once per year.
Which means Yokai Watch 2 in November 2016, 3 in 2017, and 4 in 2018. Will Yokai Watch 4 be an NX game? It could release a year after the NX handheld is out in Japan but the earliest it would come here is in 2018.
Level 5 might pull a Black/White 2 and release 4 on 3DS as well leaving the NX with no Yokai Watch game in the US until 2019 if they stick to the yearly release.
I guess they could do cross releases which would help.
Was just thinking back to Pokemon on the 3DS and how GF didn't care about supporting the system so they didn't release a game on it until after it recovered.
This could hurt the franchise which could be pretty big and hurt the adoption of NX handhelds
Do you guys think this is a problem or no?
Wouldn't the SDK need to contain the drivers for whatever Nintendo's API is for NX so that devs can start coding to it?
Right now the first priority (and most important thing in the short run) is making sure Yokai is a success in the west. I'm confident it will do fine, but not sure about the next big thing. If it does well in the west, I think they'll want the west to catch up quickly, meaning we get too much Yokai in a short amount of time. Say Yokai Watch 2 in August/September 2016, 3 Summer 2017, and by then they should be close enough to when 4 releases that it won't be a big issue.
I've also been wondering if Yokai Watch 3 will be cross-gen with NX. It did get an odd delay to summer 2016 when it was supposed to come out Winter 2015. If it's not cross-gen, Yokai 3.5 could be cross-gen, and then Nintendo would have an easier time moving the western Yokai fanbase to NX. But that's all speculation on my part based on nothing concrete.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
No, I don't think wireless would work for the type of potential we're talking here. It would still be slower than directly connecting the handheld to a physical port on the console, preferably from the front. Just remove a plastic panel over the handheld to expose a bit of the PCB, slot that into a connector, and it'd be good to go.
That said, there would still be a form of wireless connectivity, just that it would serve a purpose closer to what the tablet does for Wii U and not, say, what the FX-enhanced SNES carts, Sega CD or 32X did for their respective systems.
EDIT: I'll try and articulate better what I mean here with a write up I'll post tomorrow, hopefully with some conceptual illustrations. Hey, we can dream can't we x3?
PdotMichael
Banned
Even a worst case console like the WiiU was capable of selling more than 5 million Mario Kart games. There is still a large audience that wants dedicated console games of Nintendo games. That it was also released 3 years after Mario Kart 7 for the 3DS also helped.
That are all the things which wouldn't happen with the one game for all systems release format.
With the NX handheld and console closer than ever. Nintendo doesn't need to go through all the drawbacks of a shared library of such different systems but can still have synergy effects if the games itself can work as handheld/console game. We have seen it for the last 10 years how it can be done.
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