They already say the next console will absorb Wii U's architecture.
Can't remember the exact quote/context but it seems like BC will be happening to some extent.
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WSJ: Nintendo Begins Distributing Software Kit for NX (Console + Handheld units)
- Thread starter killercow
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They already say the next console will absorb Wii U's architecture.
Can't remember the exact quote/context but it seems like BC will be happening to some extent.
I'm one of the biggest supporters of BC you'll ever find, but I agree. It's time. Especially because if NX turns out to be everything it's rumored to be, then it's the perfect starting point for future proof "true" BC in whatever the new Virtual Console will be. Every Nintendo game ever (save for any that require unsupported hardware) in my digital library forever moving forward, and on all devices I own. If they need to sacrifice one gen of Wii U BC and start fresh to achieve that, then that's fine. Those games will end up on the VC eventually anyway. And it will be good for them to step into the 21st century as you said.
Not sure, but I imagine if it's software emulation then it's likely the system is powerful enough to run it and play.
Hardware emulation would hinder things, raise the price and the system would likely not be that powerful to keep the price as low as possible.
EndlessFloydian
Member
^ Regarding Wii U BC, this is why Nintendo should get through doing at least a few more HD remasters, that way BC isn't needed.
I know Iwata said NX will absorb Wii U architecture, but does that mean digital-Wii games on the eShop will still be available on the NX eShop? Sorry, not too tech savvy on these things.
I know Iwata said NX will absorb Wii U architecture, but does that mean digital-Wii games on the eShop will still be available on the NX eShop? Sorry, not too tech savvy on these things.
Possible. All current emulation being done on Wii U is being primed for their next systems. But everyone would hate to have to repurchase them or get another trickle. If there is no BC on NX, all future systems after are likely going to have it.
EDIT: I think Wii games through VC are just played through Wii mode. A proper emulator will likely have to be built.
I shouldn't have said 100% but StreetPass, GPS, AR are minor features that doesn't required or utilized in most games. For games that absolutely require it, it can stay exclusive on the handheld. The main benefit of this "one way" game sharing is that it doesn't hold back the console's graphical power while expanding it's gaming library.
Agent Unknown
Member
Right, we still don't know exactly what Iwata meant by that though (for all we know he could have mainly meant VC and eShop going forward with the accounts), who knows if that part has changed or will change at some point depending on the system's needs. Either way BC going forward should be a priority on the NX platform/OS, but trying to go backwards with at least some of the chips in order to make the MB compatible with the entire Wii U library seems risky and a potential costly mess.
Nostremitus
Member
Speculation time again.
IF they go high end with BC on the NX.
Console
CPU
Espresso ( probably still sitting on millions of these due to poor Wii U sales, pulls OS, voice chat, streaming, etc duties in NX mode, BC in Wii U mode)
Quad core ARM CPU in AMD APU (high clock)
GPU
AMD APU somewhere between 260 and 270 performance clocked low.
RAM
64MB eDram
8GB DDR4 or HBM
Handheld
CPU
Quad core ARM CPU in AMD APU (lower clock)
GPU
AMD APU <240 and clocked lower
RAM
64MB eDram
1 or 2GB HBM for power savings.
Games can be made to run on both handheld and console or they can push the console and have access to Espresso. They would be console exclusive.
Packaging could show different branding to differentiate between which version(s) of the system the game is compatible with.
IF they go high end with BC on the NX.
Console
CPU
Espresso ( probably still sitting on millions of these due to poor Wii U sales, pulls OS, voice chat, streaming, etc duties in NX mode, BC in Wii U mode)
Quad core ARM CPU in AMD APU (high clock)
GPU
AMD APU somewhere between 260 and 270 performance clocked low.
RAM
64MB eDram
8GB DDR4 or HBM
Handheld
CPU
Quad core ARM CPU in AMD APU (lower clock)
GPU
AMD APU <240 and clocked lower
RAM
64MB eDram
1 or 2GB HBM for power savings.
Games can be made to run on both handheld and console or they can push the console and have access to Espresso. They would be console exclusive.
Packaging could show different branding to differentiate between which version(s) of the system the game is compatible with.
If they can achieve robust Wii U (and presumably Wii or even Gamecube) backwards compatibility, whilst still switching over to a more modern architecture (presumably ARM or x86), that would be a real boon. Obviously the Wii U as a console was not appealing to a massive audience, but there's no denying it has an excellent library of exclusive games, games which would be an additional selling point to any successor, especially for folk who never played them first time around. If their processor vendor (most likely AMD imo) is able to provide components that support this, than that would be a big win.
The question in my mind is how they would handle discs. If the NX consoles use flash cartridges rather than discs, providing BC for eShop purchases would be easy, but not so for discs. Perhaps they could sell a USB disc drive, maybe even bundled with a couple of top tier Wii U games or a Gamepad. They do have Club Nintendo codes associated with NNIDs, it wouldn't be watertight, but maybe they could offer NX downloads for games based on this information.
Some kind of program where they partner with major games retailers to let people swap discs for eShop codes would be somewhat impractical and costly, but would also be a potential solution.
It's an interesting problem, but one competitive advantage Nintendo have over their competitors is decades worth of legacy, having produced interesting and worthwhile games in a range of prestigious series for decades. They've never quite capitalized on this as well as they could, and it would be great to see them pull this off now.
The question in my mind is how they would handle discs. If the NX consoles use flash cartridges rather than discs, providing BC for eShop purchases would be easy, but not so for discs. Perhaps they could sell a USB disc drive, maybe even bundled with a couple of top tier Wii U games or a Gamepad. They do have Club Nintendo codes associated with NNIDs, it wouldn't be watertight, but maybe they could offer NX downloads for games based on this information.
Some kind of program where they partner with major games retailers to let people swap discs for eShop codes would be somewhat impractical and costly, but would also be a potential solution.
It's an interesting problem, but one competitive advantage Nintendo have over their competitors is decades worth of legacy, having produced interesting and worthwhile games in a range of prestigious series for decades. They've never quite capitalized on this as well as they could, and it would be great to see them pull this off now.
My understanding was it was digital or you have to connect a Wii U to it, based off the patents. Depending on which remasters they do...if any, who knows what'd happen.
But they shouldn't have direct BC if it's a major cost hurdle
This certainly is an interesting time to be a Nintendo fan. And this certainly is a worthy follow-up to last week's Twilight Princess HD hype thread. Threads like this made me think that the Wii U (or project Cafe) could be a success and you're all doing it to me again for the NX. I hope you're right this time. Here's to industry-leading chips!
Supporting connecting a Wii U to it would be a good idea, but BC is probably a bigger deal for people who don't/didn't own a Wii U.
Although I suppose these people could just go all digital, the only reason you'd have a collection of discs to use would be if you already owned a Wii U.
Not really sure what the benefit of plugging a Wii U into a new console would be over just using the Wii U, mind.
The Wii U backwards compatibility issue is simple to resolve if they go without discs: disc returns. Use your Nintendo loyalty program sign-in on your Wii U, let the Wii U scan the disc, Nintendo gives you a mail-in label and you get your code for a download copy of it on Wii U and a tweaked version of the software that makes it playable on NX. If you don't send them the disc, the download copy is revoked within a certain number of days if they don't receive the disc.
And GameStop can't say boo about it, because there would be a run on used Wii U games, even as Nintendo is taking physical copies out of the wild.
They have to manufacture a reason to be disappointed if Nintendo hits the other high notes, so they can still furrow their brows and say how stupid Nintendo is.
I kid, I kid. But the fact that even sounds like something the press would do disappoints me.
When was the last time you saw Square Enix preemptively cover their ass for any reason?
You're right, there isn't one.
I think there's a few leagues of distinction between Sony's half-assed efforts here and what Nintendo appears to have geared up.
So entrenched that they're still making games for the previous-gen PlayStation. That speaks so much of their confidence in Sony's ability to sell their newest hardware, doesn't it?
We've seen them double-down on cross-gen, which actually works to Nintendo's advantage. "Oh, you have 2 teams working on different versions of the same game with different power envelopes? How about using those teams to a higher sales potential, with them both working on an NX title and requiring much less manpower to do so? And how about giving you a legit multi-plat option in both Japan and the rest of the world, to boot?"
Cross-gen has the potential to play right into Nintendo's hands. Almost like they PLANNED for it.
And I think multi-platform 3rd-party releases are what stopped the console market from cratering in the West like it did in Japan, but since Xbox is a non-entity there, it didn't have the same positive effect. A multi-platform console environment in Japan could be exactly what they need, and unfortunately for Sony, that doesn't bode well for them in Japan, since Japan doesn't stigmatize Nintendo's offerings like people do in the West.
The fighting game community would lose their collective minds if this happened.
It makes me want to see it happen.
Baba ruled out Nintendo platforms in the current development climate. Nothing saying the tune can't change, especially with the PS4's soft reception thus far.
Not really. Very different development environments, very different hardware sales numbers, very different performance expectations.
Of course something unexpected happens and it couldn't possibly have happened without an under-the-table money deal. *roll eyes*
Or initial hardware profits. If they have enough reason to suspect a decent fall in component costs, they could actually bite the bullet to earn some good will with consumers instead of due to sheer necessity like they did with the Wii U.
CDs and DVDs? Yeah. Blu-Rays have a very high rate of production failure, so the cost on them is higher.
Yeah, the savings in logistics, packaging and inventory management alone would make the benefits significantly higher.
And GameStop can't say boo about it, because there would be a run on used Wii U games, even as Nintendo is taking physical copies out of the wild.
They have to manufacture a reason to be disappointed if Nintendo hits the other high notes, so they can still furrow their brows and say how stupid Nintendo is.
I kid, I kid. But the fact that even sounds like something the press would do disappoints me.
When was the last time you saw Square Enix preemptively cover their ass for any reason?
You're right, there isn't one.
I think there's a few leagues of distinction between Sony's half-assed efforts here and what Nintendo appears to have geared up.
So entrenched that they're still making games for the previous-gen PlayStation. That speaks so much of their confidence in Sony's ability to sell their newest hardware, doesn't it?
We've seen them double-down on cross-gen, which actually works to Nintendo's advantage. "Oh, you have 2 teams working on different versions of the same game with different power envelopes? How about using those teams to a higher sales potential, with them both working on an NX title and requiring much less manpower to do so? And how about giving you a legit multi-plat option in both Japan and the rest of the world, to boot?"
Cross-gen has the potential to play right into Nintendo's hands. Almost like they PLANNED for it.
And I think multi-platform 3rd-party releases are what stopped the console market from cratering in the West like it did in Japan, but since Xbox is a non-entity there, it didn't have the same positive effect. A multi-platform console environment in Japan could be exactly what they need, and unfortunately for Sony, that doesn't bode well for them in Japan, since Japan doesn't stigmatize Nintendo's offerings like people do in the West.
The fighting game community would lose their collective minds if this happened.
It makes me want to see it happen.
Baba ruled out Nintendo platforms in the current development climate. Nothing saying the tune can't change, especially with the PS4's soft reception thus far.
Not really. Very different development environments, very different hardware sales numbers, very different performance expectations.
Of course something unexpected happens and it couldn't possibly have happened without an under-the-table money deal. *roll eyes*
Or initial hardware profits. If they have enough reason to suspect a decent fall in component costs, they could actually bite the bullet to earn some good will with consumers instead of due to sheer necessity like they did with the Wii U.
CDs and DVDs? Yeah. Blu-Rays have a very high rate of production failure, so the cost on them is higher.
Yeah, the savings in logistics, packaging and inventory management alone would make the benefits significantly higher.
That would be pretty convoluted and pretty expensive to set up. It would work but just setting up an infrastructure to handle that would be costly, that's why I suggested a solution piggy-backing onto an existing infrastructure.
I honestly don't like the sounds of that at all. I'm keeping my physical copies.
Pokemaniac
Member
Aside from the fact that Club Nintendo is already dead and would be missing a lot of data, "wouldn't be watertight" is a bit of an understatement. There was some pretty blatant abuse of the system.
I don't think I'd really expect anything for BC with discs aside from a USB disc drive. Anything else would probably be either cumbersome, or be Nintendo basically giving copies of the games away for free.
Hardware BC is pretty much a non-factor unless they come up with some miracle or are completely insane. But they'll probably do what Microsoft is doing with 360 BC and put them in their own wrappers for use on NX, IF IF IF they do it at all.
A potential legacy process if you have the same kind of Wii > Wii U app on Wii U and NX and make it a slow, agonizing process.
A potential legacy process if you have the same kind of Wii > Wii U app on Wii U and NX and make it a slow, agonizing process.
The service is dead, but the accounts were merged with NNID. Nintendo still have all the account data. Maybe just something like a heavy discount on buying the eShop versions of disc games you have registered could do the job.
I guess I do have games where I registered the club Nintendo code, then sold the game. Probably wouldn't be right to give me a download in those instances.
Not really a concern for me because 90% of my Wii U library is digital, but it would rule out Wii games that aren't currently (or later on) made available on the eShop.
I guess I do have games where I registered the club Nintendo code, then sold the game. Probably wouldn't be right to give me a download in those instances.
Not really a concern for me because 90% of my Wii U library is digital, but it would rule out Wii games that aren't currently (or later on) made available on the eShop.
Setting up call tags and having a return depot is something that already needs to be done for repair services. With this, they get a box, check the disc, compare against a database, done. Would take all of a minute at most to do per game in manpower.
In fact, setting up the return is something that any delivery company can fully automate in your backend servers with little to no trouble. All the consumer would do is make the call to pick it up or drop it at a depot with the label on it.
Then you can keep your Wii U, as well. Simple.
Pokemaniac
Member
The accounts weren't merged, they're just dead. I suspect Nintendo may still have the data lying around somewhere, but Club Nintendo is and always has been completely separate from NNID. The only point of interconnection was the eShop automatically registering digital games.
I think you kinda overestimate how organized Club Nintendo was. What we knew as Club Nintendo was actually no less than 3 entirely separate services. If it was possible to cleanly fold Club Nintendo into NNID, then it wouldn't be getting replaced right now.
fabricated backlash
Member
Not to mention that each Club Nintendo in Europe was locked to the respective subsidiary, so if you had a CN account in Italy and moved to Austria (like me) you were out of luck and they refused to transfer it to Nintendo of Austria.
Instead they just revoked my access and didn't let me sign on since 2 years ago. Best part was that I got a customer service reply 5 months after sending in my problem.
If this new service is going to be worth anything they have to make it global, or just another feature of any NNID to be worth anything. Just verify your NNID by an extra login (address required for shipping) and be done with it. Maybe call it an Ambassador program, or Loyalty program and that should be it.
Nostremitus
Member
What if they have two versions of the NX console, a standard without a disc drive and a deluxe with one.
One without a disc drive would be DOA, and depending on the price, so would the one with the disc drive.
But the thinking behind a cart slot instead of a disc drive is that it'd run cooler, make the box smaller, as well as reduce shipping costs.
Trevelyan9999
Banned
My guess is that Nintendo will lower the price of Wii U next year twice, once after they show NX and again when they launch NX. By that time Nintendo will need to clear out Wii U stock for NX devices. Either that or one big price drop to $199.
I predict early 2016 is the NX reveal, what it looks like, the features and maybe a few tech demos shown. Then E3 will be all games and holiday release date info.
I predict early 2016 is the NX reveal, what it looks like, the features and maybe a few tech demos shown. Then E3 will be all games and holiday release date info.
What if NX, if it's supposed to be a hybrid device, uses a game cart instead of a disc?
I see that as a death blow to most 3rd party games.
Not totally a death blow, but I see this as a major challenge since discs are inherently much cheaper and easier to produce right now. Plus if it will have a Wii U BC then chances are it will still retain the disc drive.
But with memory devices getting cheaper these days, it's not totally impossible and can be an overall improvement in power, thermal, unit price and form factor design if carts are used. I kinda lean on this just from the hardware design perspective, but I'm not optimistic that it will happen for this new hardware.
Just curious, why would it be bad if there was no disc drive if the games were on carts? Both devices using the same medium would be good. And memory cards are pretty cheap these days.
Graphics Horse
Member
People really think a handheld not using optical discs will be a 'death blow'?
I wonder if they might ship games on custom usb dongles, instead of taking up room with an internal card slot. Idea would be you copy the data to the system beforehand as an alternative to downloading.
I wonder if they might ship games on custom usb dongles, instead of taking up room with an internal card slot. Idea would be you copy the data to the system beforehand as an alternative to downloading.
Eh, it's not a massive difference in cost to produce, but when you're manufacturing 100s of millions of them it can make a big difference.
From what I've heard the difference might be about 50 cents.
i am thinking this is a pretty possible scenario if the library is the same across multiple form factors. i think the nx is aimed most squarely at developers in japan, and they haven't had any problems supporting devices that use game cards as a medium.
Stigma, not to mention the allure of BC without many hoops, assuming it's there.
It's not happening though, because it'd be a manufacturing disaster to do both.
DaSorcerer7
Member
So I guess early production starting fairly soon was accurate?
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/nintendo-nx-manufacturing-to-begin-in-october-repo/1100-6428596/
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/nintendo-nx-manufacturing-to-begin-in-october-repo/1100-6428596/
morthbound
Member
I don't think there's going to be as much cross platform games as some might think. I mean, you guys don't think Nintendo wants to sell different hardware to the same person? I feel this single NX OS platform is more of a cost cutting move.
The fact of the matter is that even though flash memory prices keep coming down it's still way more expensive then a blu ray disk. Even if Nintendo was able to offer flash memory cartridges at a dollar or two per cartridge the price of a blu ray disk is only going to be a few cents per disk. When you're talking about selling hundreds of thousands of units or millions of units the cost of carts is really going to add up vs the cost of disks. Are third part publishers going to be happy paying hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars extra for the storage medium of their games?
I don't they will drop the price a lot. Wouldn't help the new console's sales.
Its possible the news from july was a timeline for dev kits to maybe start getting made. They wont begin full fledged manufacturing until only a few months from release. Generally final hardware as far as CPU etc. only arrive 2-3 months ahead of launch
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Not nearly as cheap as optical discs, but for Nintendo they could save money on the home console parts and simplify distribution if they used the same medium for portable and home console. Even better if the portable relied on digital downloads mostly and retailers sold read only SD cards as game cartridges or something to keep retailers happy.
I cannot see going back to cartridges as a smart move for a home console though. A 64 GB SD card might be cheap now, especially if you want to install the games in a local drive and can save on the SD speed class ratings, but price per GB is nowhere near what you have on a cheap plastic optical disc now. If you go for a fast proprietary game ROM then you add the same inventory management, production and replication risk management, turnaround time, etc... you used to have when PSOne changed the rules of the game.
Sure they might like it if a person buys two pieces of hardware and they could make that a sensible option by offering cross-save and SKUs where both the stationary and mobile unit is packed into the box. But they need to be more or less self-sustained with software and through focusing all efforts on one family of systems everyone gets more games. So for this to work, really, the NX handheld and console needs to get the same games.
i think nintendo wants to sell as much software as possible, as that's what makes them money. they don't make a lot of money off of hardware, and the money they do make off of hardware is minimal compared to software they can sell. therefore the idea should be to reach as many people with their library as possible. this wasn't exactly feasible with technology in the past, but it might be possible now.
I think there's a danger in not making some exclusive to one or the other, particularly the console. You're not going to get many people onto the Console if the barrier to entry is far cheaper on the handheld, regardless of what the benefits are. Not to mention the danger in people calling out Nintendo on them not taking full advantage of superior hardware.
EndlessFloydian
Member
No, not really.
Graphics Horse
Member
Nintendo would love to be selling as many cards as they were when the DS was in its prime. Whether it's handheld or console is irreverent.
Ultra Nintendo Cube
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