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[Arkos]

I don't know squat about EU law, but look forward to the discussion.

Haha surprisingly first post nails it (for me)

Europe?
Why on Earth would I live there?

Flawless

This is all interesting, but I think ultimately

1. MS has some work around in mind
2. If they don't, they don't care

The main interesting thing seems more a matter of math regarding how well their work around will work, how much additional loss it might cause in foreign markets, all compared to how profitable those markets even are for them I the first place. They definitely seem prepared to take losses. If you don't like the Xbone, youve just gt to hope their calculations and predictions are off

(because there's nostoppingthistrain.gif at this point I think. MS can afford the lawyers to have thought about this by now)

 

[JWong]

They just won't release it in EU.

 

[Dizzy]

I hope it's so impossible to sell Xbox One in Europe that it's mired in shit for years and fails to sell more than a few thousand units. Japan's already done for them. So then everything will rest on the US recognizing how awful the console is.

Amir0x
Officially denutted

 

[Alx]

Obviously I'm not trying here. But they'll EULA it and get away with it. That's what corporations do. The only real power we have is to take our gaming elsewhere.

Nah, the EU basically stated that EULA had no legal value...
But I don't think the system proposed by MS is in contradiction with European law.

 

[Valkyria]

The thing is, MS will just EULA it.

"By playing Xbox One you are permitting Microsoft to break all these consumer rights and privacy protection laws pertaining to control of always on cameras and microphones, that you absolve Microsoft from any potential litigation class action or otherwise, relating to breaches of privacy etc etc etc and you're agreeing that anything purchased specifically for our game system is still in fact Microsoft's and not yours, cause we are just granting you permission to play it, not own it per se"

Obviously I'm not trying here. But they'll EULA it and get away with it. That's what corporations do. The only real power we have is to take our gaming elsewhere.

EULA's are not a legal binding in the UE. If it against the law, it doesn't matter if you accept it.

 

[i-Lo]

MS's defence for Kinect is simple: It doesn't relay data to an off site server and consequently all decision making, unless, otherwise explicitly stated, is made locally.

That said, I am NEVER fapping with its lenses pointed at me when I get the console a few years down the line.


As for used games, that's a really muddy water.

 

[maltrain]

Microsoft won't be able to control "second hand market" on Europe if the rumours are true. That's colusion. In fact, thinking about it... here in Chile consumer laws could affect them too, because it's a very important factor today with presidential elections this year...

 

[Polk]

The thing is, MS will just EULA it.

In short if EULA contradicts any law, it's not enforcable in that manner.

 

[RamzaIsCool]

Dunno about the illegality of these exact things. But what I do know is that if Sony and Microsoft are playing under one roof to push this shit thru our throats they would violate some serious laws. Cartel and antitrust authority would be suing and penalizing them to hell and back.

 

[Linkified]

What applies to a country, applies to the whole union.

And that is the idiotic nonsense of the EU....

 

[Biggzy]

Dunno about the illegality of these exact things. But what I do know is that if Sony and Microsoft are playing under one roof to push this shit thru our throats they would violate some serious laws. Cartel and antitrust authority would be suing and penalizing them to hell and back.

That is against the law in pretty much any country.

 

[LTWheels]

Please stop all the armchair lawyer stuff. EU law is highly specialised stuff to try and interpretate. Your talking about law that goes beyond a national level. It most likely wont fall foul of EU regulation. They probably have already consulted lawyers and would have already done enough to ensure compliance when designing the software.

If anything did fall foul, it would require someone to take Microsoft to court in their own national court. The national court then has to refer it to the ECJ. ECJ makes a decision. The national court has to then fit that decision within the structure of their own national courts. Even if a court case was brought sortly after launch, we may already be starting to think about looking to the next consoles before it's resolved. This also requires someone or a consumer group to actually want to pay the court fees and lawyer expenses in the first place.

 

[Alebrije]

Xbone do not cares , it is just for Murica...!!

 

[PaNaMa]

EULA's are not a legal binding in the UE. If it against the law, it doesn't matter if you accept it.

That's fantastic!

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

I get the feeling that the Kinect will be the only way you can log into your account. so yea this could get interesting.

 

[Phonomezer]

Pretty sure the giant "X" lights up on the new Kinect when it's being used.

 

[Sobriquet]

In order for to be in standby, it has to be on, and if there's no way to turn it off completely (e.g. disconnect the power to it), then it sounds like it would break that rule.

Wouldn't you be able to turn it off in system settings like the current Kinect?

 

[soulassssns]

Recent rumors explicitly say that the plan at the moment is to have no fee or restriction on selling used games. The exact nature of the authentication process is not finalized.

And yeah, the kinect is gonna be able to be turned off, dude.

I guess I can't blame everyone for taking these rumors so seriously when Penny Arcade and such outlets are doing so as well, but cmon. Don't flip your pancakes til we see what's in the batter.

Common sense? Gaf likes to scream fire before there is a fire sometimes.

 

[Duster]

The article below says that once a "rightholder" has sold their product they exhaust their exclusive distribution rights.
I suppose it all depends on how the word "exclusive" is interpreted.
Does this mean that Microsoft only allowing you to sell your games with certain approved partners is illegal? Or does the fact they allow you to use several different retailers mean it's not a monopoly even though they control the market?

I expect Microsoft's lawyers will say what they're doing is legal and it will take a ruling against them to stop it.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2012/07/04/curia-digital-distribution/

 

[we.are.the.armada]

Xbone do not cares , it is just for Murica...!!

I hear ya. That last thing we Americans need is another exemplification of such boorishness :/

 

[EvB]

Why should they? FIFA is played on PS3 in Europe.

You will have people that love ultimate team so much that they will buy the console that has it.

I also find the suggestion that nobody outside of the UK buys Xbox quite absurd.

I'd guess that PS3 sells out 30% more in the other european markets, but I bet EA see's that the Live infrastructure and the demographic that purchases Xbox products actually spend more money on digital purchases.
This is why they will be supporting it, because the potential for EA is massive.

Why would they want to chase after customers that don't generate them as much revenue?

 

[RoboPlato]

This is something I've been wondering about ever since the announcement. This could be the most intersting aspect of this whole thing.

 

[Always-honest]

It seems that every Xbox they sell outside of the US is just a bonus. They didn't seem too bothered with Europe.

 

[Biggzy]

Wouldn't you be able to turn it off in system settings like the current Kinect?

Lol. Good point actually, as Kinect draws its power from the Xbox.

 

[Chakan]

This laws are valid in all Europe? How's that?

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

obligatory

god I love our laws over here

 

[Biggzy]

obligatory

god I love our laws over here

So much for their agreement lol.

 

[soulassssns]

obligatory

god I love our laws over here

That is awesome. Most I was able to do was get a game removed from my steam library and credits added to my "wallet".

 

[Photolysis]

The thing is, MS will just EULA it.

EULAs mean pretty much fuck all, particularly in the UK and EU.

 

[Xun]

obligatory

god I love our laws over here

Brilliant.

I'd like to think the EU would do something, but I doubt it.

 

[Jallopy]

Does Europe come down on Apple and iOS digital sales? Google and the play stores digital sales? How is the Xbox one any different? You are buying a license to a game/app not a physical good.

If I'm buying a disc, it can be argued I'm buying a physical good...

 

[nubbe]

Microsoft don't care. They made an enemy of the EU a while ago and are still taking the piss through the appeals process last I heard.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case

The fines will not be distributed to the companies that lost income due to Microsoft practices. The money paid in fines to the European Court goes back into the EU budget.

EU will more than gladly go after Microsoft.

 

[Valkyria]

And that is the idiotic nonsense of the EU....

Actually is one of the few things that are good. Also the ability to live in any country inside the UE (many of the retired people from your country will agree).

 

[Biggzy]

Brilliant.

I'd like to think the EU would do something, but I doubt it.

The EU are actually quite pro consumer.

 

[Biker19]

EULAs mean pretty much fuck all, particularly in the UK and EU.

I sure wish that the country that I live in (America) were also pro-consumer & would also make anti-consumer practices such as preventing second-hand sales, etc. illegal like UK & Europe did, but sadly, they won't.

 

[i-Lo]

On the bright side some German news outlets have already expressed their concern over Kinect's function and consequent effect on privacy and security.

 

[AOC83]

You will have people that love ultimate team so much that they will buy the console that has it.

Ultimate Team is not Xbone exclusive.

 

[Aguirre]

would be hilarious if EU gets a non kinect required version of the xone

hilariously awesome you mean? i bet that happens! and we get the full kinect xbone

 

[Linkified]

Actually is one of the few things that are good. Also the ability to live in any country inside the UE (many of the retired people from your country will agree).

Actually it isn't hence the "one glove fits all" shouldn't be applicable to every country. Hence the EU decision to investigate tax breaks bullshit. Anyway EU won't have any impact with Xbox, PS4, etc.

 

[Biggzy]

On the bright side some German news outlets have already expressed their concern over Kinect's function and consequent effect on privacy and security.

We will have to wait and see what privacy features MS will enable people to use, if any.

 

[Radec]

Can the EU Law overrides any EULA conditions made by Microsoft on its products that the users agreed upon before using it ?

 

[EvB]

Did they say that it was exclusive forever? Seem so weird to drop a big part of their userbase (unless Microsoft payed the a lot of money to compensate).

I guess it's hard to know, it could literally be as simple as
"on average 360 users spend more on games and content"

and EA understand that the Live system fosters certain consumer purchasing habits and the gamers that are attracted to 360 actually generate more money, despite there being fewer of them.

EA have said that BF3 and Fifa are now their 2 biggest money spinners because of the Digital content, it will certainly be interesting to see if their new found strategic relationship will extend to BF.

For us sofa analysts it's very hard to know what is going on, we don't have access to all the sales data that they have. We really don't have the insight we think we have

 

[Ardenyal]

Should we hold our outrage until we have all bought our systems?

Can the EU Law overrides any EULA conditions made by Microsoft on its products that the users agreed upon before using it ?

If there is an EU law about the issue then it should override it. I have returned a couple PS3s after the 1 year warranty based on the minimum 2 year warranty thing set by EU... got free upgrades both times.

 

[Tylahedras]

So what you are saying is that I might want to import a system and buy games from the EU? Sounds like a good workaround.

 

[nubbe]

Can the EU Law overrides any EULA conditions made by Microsoft on its products that the users agreed upon before using it ?

A private agreement never suppressed national or federal law

EULA aren't even legal until they are tried on court

 

[Red Blaster]

obligatory

god I love our laws over here

shit i didn't know you could do that

i might put up with all the bad dentistry and move to the uk later in life

 

[Liha]

Can the EU Law overrides any EULA conditions made by Microsoft on its products that the users agreed upon before using it ?

Yes! The origin EULA after the battlefield 3 release was illegal and you could always return the game.

 

[Photolysis]

Can the EU Law overrides any EULA conditions made by Microsoft on its products that the users agreed upon before using it ?

The law always overrides EULAs. Depending on the jurisdiction the effects can vary from rendering the relevant term within the EULA null and void, to rendering the entire thing void.

I also know that under UK law at least, there are certain rights that cannot be signed away. For example, I cannot sign away my right to a refund or compensation in the event of a faulty product or service, and it's actually a crime for any company to do this because it misleads consumers over their rights.

 

[iNvid02]

shit i didn't know you could do that

i might put up with all the bad dentistry and move to the uk later in life

your fat ass would be welcome

 

[Corto]

They will pay a fine or make a deal with the EU Commission to postpone the fine for a mutually arranged time so they can ignore it altogether and continue with business as usual. It's just their M.O.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/technology/eu-fines-microsoft-over-browser.html?_r=0

For those interested the European Court ruling Press Release concerning used software resale rights:

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf