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[MYE]

getting wiped around by the EU law

EU should go apeshit on their asses
GO EU!

 

[syllogism]

Capital Records v. ReDigi, Inc is the case to watch in the US, assuming it gets appealed all the way. The district court ruled that prohibiting the resale of tracks bought from Itunes isn't against the first-sale doctrine.

 

[Dark-Cloudz]

I was just making a point that what ever you think about Digital distribution (I personally think resale rights should exist for these products), the EU law is not specific enough about them.

When it comes to physical games (not online passes which can be seen as extra/premium/subscription content) and the basic single player offline content, you cannot charge twice for it.

 

[Sendou]

Then those companies will bail from the European market and good luck with that and again the stupidity of EU law continues.

Hahahahaha bail out Europe? And did you just call pro-consumer laws stupid? Oh man you don't even know the kind of world we would have without them.

 

[DBT85]

So Steamworks disc games aren't being sold in the EU? Online passes for console games don't exist?

Alternatively, you can sell an XBONE disc for whatever you'd like. It's borderline valueless, though.

Regarding online passes, I think they can get away with those. If the game has any single player content then you are paying to access the online servers. It's still douchy, but I can see how they would get away with it.

That was the whole point behind online passes, if you want to use the online portion of the game and in doing so cost them money (to keep the servers running), you had to pay a fee. You can still play the single player game without having to do anything.

 

[Valkyria]

Perfect.

 

[Polk]

THey have been talking about this since 2009, yet I'm still seeing iphones with there own charging ports. Last report I've heard that they are going to let Apple keep their own unique ports as long as they package an USB convertor adapter with the iphones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_External_Power_Supply#Reference_to_USB_battery_charging_standard

 

[MYE]

Someone do a clever photoshop of this map as the world seen through Microsoft's eyes

 

[Deleted member 8095]

Is the Valve lawsuit still pending at this time? Thanks for the links by the way, it is pretty interesting.

 

[Dark-Cloudz]

That would be an interesting debate in court: are you paying $50 for plastic disc ( the vehicle for the game) therefore that is the only part you own? Or is the value in the software?

Looking at the consumer protection in the UK/EU and the way we go after anti consumer practices, it'd be an interesting debate/showdown!

 

[Biggzy]

It's such a murky area of law. Like previously said above even lawyers are not sure which way stuff is going to go and it all depends on what the ECJ is feeling at the time.

Are the discs even a physical good any more? If you read some of the interviewers the language they use is that the discs are just an installer for the digital licence. You are now purchasing a digital cd key. The information on the disc is just to help speed up the process. After it is installed the disc is no longer needed anymore. You can bin it. They lines between what is digital good and a physical goods are going to become even more blurred.

You have not been able to trade in PC games for years. Shops refuse to accept them because of the cd keys.

Which is why this is not the real issue. The real issue is the potential lack of competition and price setting, something the competion regualtors will come down on like a ton of bricks.

 

[DragonSworne]

Technically, Xbox One violates US laws as well.

 

[MYE]

edit: didn't know about the 560 million Euro fine for not including the browser choice in Windows for a couple months. Love it.

*tearrollingdownface*

Then those companies will bail from the European market and good luck with that and again the stupidity of EU law continues.

The FUCK?!

 

[RoninChaos]

Will definitely be interesting on both counts. Shame US law isn't exactly in favor of consumer advocacy. Oh well.

Gotta think about those job creators.

 

[AOC83]

 

[Deleted member 8095]

Technically, Xbox One violates US laws as well.

You can't just post that without saying why. I would actually like to know, not being sarcastic.

 

[Dark-Cloudz]

Then those companies will bail from the European market and good luck with that and again the stupidity of EU law continues.

This will never happen. Microsoft like money, even if it's less money.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Is the Valve lawsuit still pending at this time? Thanks for the links by the way, it is pretty interesting.

Yes. It's still on going. A lot of people expect the ECJ to rule in favour of the German consumer protection agency after the Oracle ruling (when it gets there).

Clearly you don't know what the fuck you're talking about... :rollseyes

 

[syllogism]

Is the Valve lawsuit still pending at this time? Thanks for the links by the way, it is pretty interesting.

They are being sued in a district court in Germany. It's likely going to take years for the case to reach the federal court and then perhaps 18+ months until we get a ECJ ruling, because the federal court would probably, again, refer the issue to ECJ. If they don't refer it to ECJ, the ruling will have little immediate impact on Steam in EU, Germany aside.

 

[TGO]

Time for a new movie MS?

 

[Prologue]

They know, they just don't care.

Queue in TDKR soundtrack.

 

[avaya]

Then those companies will bail from the European market and good luck with that and again the stupidity of EU law continues.

This a special special post. Very special.

 

[DragonSworne]

You can't just post that without saying why. I would actually like to know, not being sarcastic.

Sorry, I'm on my cell phone so I can't get into details.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_privacy

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

 

[oVerde]

I hope it's so impossible to sell Xbox One in Europe that it's mired in shit for years and fails to sell more than a few thousand units. Japan's already done for them. So then everything will rest on the US recognizing how awful the console is.

This is all assuming MS manages to sell an Xbone in Europe.

is anyone in GAF actually buying an XBox one?

Yes there will be people buying it, and lol to you guys.

Ms said you can resell and Kinect won't film/track on stand by/low power mode, can't understand this thread reactionaries.

 

[Polk]

Then those companies will bail from the European market and good luck with that and again the stupidity of EU law continues.

That would be suicide for any CEO.

 

[sakipon]

This a special special post. Very special.

Well, Linkified isn't the first or last gamer willing to give up their consumer rights, as sad as that is.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

This a special special post. Very special.

Who doesn't want to give up their consumer rights to support large corporations?

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Who doesn't want to give up their consumer rights to support large corporations?

Yep. Remember those corporations have our backs, bro. they wouldn't do anything to screw us over.

 

[SneakyStephan]

If MS was competing with apple they would be in a court room right now (I'm not complimenting Apple here, nor defending MS)

 

[hal9001]

Who thought that the saving grace for gamers may turn out to be the EU.

 

[Biker19]

Then those companies will bail from the European market and good luck with that and again the stupidity of EU law continues.

Then they'll risk losing out of a ton of money for trying to be so stubborn. And the law of supporting consumer's rights isn't dumb.

Technically, Xbox One violates US laws as well.

I wonder why Microsoft's been allowed to get away with it? Somebody needs to do something about it.

 

[gofreak]

. The exclusive right of distribution covered by a license is "exhausted on its first sale"

Sounds clear cut like the policy MS/MCV described would violate that. By what MS said and MCV described, MS does want to main exclusive control of distribution for the first sale, second, third etc.

Well, I don't know actually...maybe the ability to sell through retail will sidestep that, since it could be argued retail is controlling that redistribution, even if MS is getting a cut there?

 

[nubbe]

Who doesn't want to give up their consumer rights to support large corporations?

Doesn't the US supreme court, congress and senate do that on a daily basis?

 

[uuaschbaer]

There is still national law... It may be less efficient but at least it's more democratic : ).

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Then those companies will bail from the European market and good luck with that and again the stupidity of EU law continues.

Hahahahaha. The stupidity of these companies will prevent from entering the largest market on earth.

 

[2MF]

It's such a murky area of law. Like previously said above even lawyers are not sure which way stuff is going to go and it all depends on what the ECJ is feeling at the time.

Are the discs even a physical good any more? If you read some of the interviewers the language they use is that the discs are just an installer for the digital licence. You are now purchasing a digital cd key. The information on the disc is just to help speed up the process. After it is installed the disc is no longer needed anymore. You can bin it. They lines between what is digital good and a physical goods are going to become even more blurred.

You have not been able to trade in PC games for years. Shops refuse to accept them because of the cd keys.

It's not that murky. The only problem is that companies keep doing this while hoping they get away with it. Steam has been getting away with it so far, doesn't mean it will continue.

There was a ruling recently about Oracle's digital licenses, the court decided they should be sellable:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2012/07/04/curia-digital-distribution/

 

[G8D]

Ceebs to read the whole thread but I've been having this discussion offline/on other forums and it's in no way guaranteed that it'd lead to any kind of successful case.

Just a disclaimer: I am a 3rd year law student in Europe and have been studying, in part, competition law for the past year. I'm not trying to be an authority, I'm likely wrong on several things, rather I just want to discuss. What I say could easily be wrong, like.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on anything, I've only half heartedly been following the news.

1) I don't know anything about the webcam thing. Link to the law? It seems like the sort of thing that'd be likely in force in Europe so it could indeed be a stumbling block for MS.

2) Regarding this whole resale of software licence thing... I don't think MS will fall foul. By the quotes of the case everyone throws around you'd expect certain things to have happened. On iOS to my knowledge there is no way to transfer your licences for games/apps to others and yet Apple has faced no repercussions. MS themselves don't offer a way to trade XBLA games afaik and they've not had any issue with that.

I've heard reports that MS will be allowing some sort of 'marketplace' over Xbox Live through which you can sell licences for games you no longer wish to own. I'm not sure if this is true but if it is then MS are actually providing an infrastructure that complies with the Oracle ruling.

3) The point I want to make (it may have been made elsewhere in this thread) is on a point of competition law. The EU Commission and, subsequently, Courts may very well find that MS's conduct in regard to second hand sales is anti-consumer and anti-competition. If they have indeed come to agreements with publishers and 'official resellers' then these could be up for scrutiny. They could be held to be exclusionary and even be an example of price fixing depending on how it plays out. If these agreements can be seen to, by object or effect, impede competition in the single market then they may be subject to pay damages and alter their conduct.

Really only time will tell. It could be interesting.

Apologies if any of the above seems a bit of a ramble. I'm not proof reading it.

 

[Linkified]

Also, this is not a stupid law, I own the licence and I should be able to do whatever the hell I want with it, including reselling it or transferring it.

Who're you kidding? Faced with losing a significant chunk of their global business or fall in line with the regulators, these global multinational corporations are going to try to change the laws.

This is not going to happen. And the law isn't stupid.

And did you just call pro-consumer laws stupid? Oh man you don't even know the kind of world we would have without them.

This will never happen. Microsoft like money, even if it's less money.

This a special special post. Very special.

Who doesn't want to give up their consumer rights to support large corporations?

Yes you are probably right most companies wouldn't bail out of EU zone that was a poor choice of words on my behalf.

Consumers should be expected to trade physical media to whomever they want. Digitally, though, consumers know they can't trade/sell software licenses. I know that I can't trade/sell licenses so make my purchasing decisions accordingly. If we take it a step further the music industry would never allow the resell of music digitally on an iTunes for instance.

By allowing users to trade and sell - 'they' the Music/Film/Games industry would turn consumption of digital content to a subscription system then you wouldn't own a damn thing anyway. I personally would be more persuaded to have a system where in which I own the license where I only have to pay once to 'play' than pay a monthly fee to observe content on a server.

 

[stef t97]

I thought it was confirmed that there were modes that turned the camera off?

 

[Glorified G]

 

[kevinski]

Honestly, given how the EU treats Microsoft at times, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft did have to make changes to how Xbox One operates in Europe. That said, as silly as it may sound, I honestly feel that Microsoft would benefit greatly from making Xbox One exclusive to the U.S., unless it plans to seriously make all of these services available to other regions. Just call it Xbox U.S.A. and make it red, white and blue. Give game discounts to veterans. It'd sell well enough in the U.S. on those grounds alone to make up for lost sales from other territories when you consider the cost of trade and implementation in those other territories.

And no, I'm not completely serious in that I want any of this to happen. I hope everyone who wants Xbox One can buy and enjoy it. I'm just acknowledging the fact that - as much as I like Microsoft products - Microsoft really leaves other territories out in the cold in a lot of respects.

 

[test_account]

I guess it's hard to know, it could literally be as simple as
"on average 360 users spend more on games and content"

and EA understand that the Live system fosters certain consumer purchasing habits and the gamers that are attracted to 360 actually generate more money, despite there being fewer of them.

EA have said that BF3 and Fifa are now their 2 biggest money spinners because of the Digital content, it will certainly be interesting to see if their new found strategic relationship will extend to BF.

For us sofa analysts it's very hard to know what is going on, we don't have access to all the sales data that they have. We really don't have the insight we think we have

It seems that Ultimate Team is not exclusive afterall, just exclusive stuff for Ultimate Team, not the whole mode. Then it makes more sense. It would be strange to completely ignore a huge userbase of a whole mode. And like you say, those digital things make much money, so it would be even stranger to cut down on it

 

[soulassssns]

Someone do a clever photoshop of this map as the world seen through Microsoft's eyes

lol but we Americans think very highly of Australia and Canada for the most part. The rest of you on the other hand.....

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

The law always overrides EULAs. Depending on the jurisdiction the effects can vary from rendering the relevant term within the EULA null and void, to rendering the entire thing void.

I also know that under UK law at least, there are certain rights that cannot be signed away. For example, I cannot sign away my right to a refund or compensation in the event of a faulty product or service, and it's actually a crime for any company to do this because it misleads consumers over their rights.

Even beyond this, we have limiting principles that govern most contracts. I imagine it would be somewhat similar in other European jurisdictions given a lot of UK regulation on the matter derives from an EU directive. There's actually a move now to extend this to EULAs. Although they are usually unenforceable, they can still discourage the exercise of rights.

 

[DarkFlow]

the $108million that EA made purely from Fifa ultimate team in 2012 says otherwise.

I hear FIFA is also on PS and PC.

 

[G8D]

I hear FIFA is also on PS and PC.

I think Ultimate team is Xbox exclusive.

 

[AOC83]

I think Ultimate team is Xbox exclusive.

No, it´s not.

 

[robertsan21]

the Laws better work to stop this crazy shit that is Xbox one. I dont want it and so doesnt europe unless they change the anti consumer shit they are pulling.

 

[G8D]

No, it´s not.

A sorry I wasn't really paying attention to the sports part of the conference. The Xbox is receiving exclusive Ultimate Team content is all.

 

[Jindujun]

That PDF is dated from almost a year ago, has anyone gone after Apple or Steam yet?.

Not sure about the EU but in sweden someone got ahold of the agreement carriers have to sign to carry apple products and according to lawyers they might be in violation of swedish and european law.

http://www.dailytech.com/European+C...or+Anticompetitive+Contracts/article30188.htm