Samurai G0SU
Member
Weren't people saying back compat 360 was impossible on the one and if ever implemented would run those games like shit?
Well then. RonBurgundy.jpg
Well then. RonBurgundy.jpg
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Xbox Project Scorpio Announced - 6TFlops, 320GB/s - Fall 2017
- Thread starter wachie
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I feel that's an extremely generous read on the comments he was making, especially in the context that they were being made. He was effectively arguing against the idea of a Scorpio in the form that we now know exists. I don't want to duplicate the long line of posts that made up the prior discussion, but you can follow the quotes back and read through. More importantly...
...was effectively the argument being put forth in that thread, to which he was arguing against (hence the claim that it would need to also have ESRAM+DDR3 in order to play current XB1 games).
Dee Dah Dave
Member
They probably have to do a bit of tinkering but that's not emulation. Neither would Jag to Zen require emulation, it's the same instruction set. Still gonna be the gimpy Jag though, Sage is gonna have to eat his hat if he has any left!
Samurai G0SU
Member
Sage will just exit with his super move
Kage Bunshin no Jutsu
Yeah. At least Excavator CPU cores.
Chobel
Member
No idea, I'm not familiar with on the hypervisor OS works, but whatever the case there will use of some kind of code translation from one target architecture to another. That falls under emulation IMO.
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All I see is that he said it won't run natively if there isn't ESRAM+DDR3. He never said Scorpio can't do it at all.
Here's the qutes you posted
PeterLegend
Member
I'm anxious to see what looks better, GT Sport or Forza 7. I know Microsoft will have the better hardware but PD are wizards.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
Dead Rising 4(even though it leaked early) and State of Decay 2 were first announce at E3 2016.
Hawk269
Member
Do you really think the higher up people gave the Green light for the development and in short time production, marketing and all the related millions of dollars to bring Scorpio to market because they "want to make themselves feel better"???
Hawk269
Member
Ask Sony how that is working out for them!!! I have a PRO and I do enjoy it more than my previous PS4, but the weak Jaguar is definitely preventing it from truly using that powerful GPU.
Well yea, he never said Scorpio couldn't do it, because at the time he was arguing against the idea of a Scorpio (or PS4 Pro) period.
The point is that under the case of the code making managed calls being considered emulation, then that would already describe the current Xbox One also. Are the XB1 and XB1S emulating Xbox One games? This is still considered running an application natively. I made the comparison to mobile platforms in regards to how calls are managed, and how this lessens dependency on the specific hardware, and he disagreed with that comparison quite flatly for "real" games, despite it basically being what he's just suggested for the memory situation in this thread now.
LukasTaves
Member
What you are describing is interpreting, just in time/dynamic compiling or a direct instruction translation, not emulation, though these are often tools that emulators use.
However in the case of Scorpio running xbone games all it takes is to port the VM to the new architecture handling the system calls (specially esram) properly, it's not any more extra emulation on what even the xbone itself does to run those games.
12Dannu123
Member
I'm guessing for Sony it's much more complicated?
They coded their games to the metal. Which is basically a no no for BC
rokkerkory
Member
When do we think we're hear more on this baby?
CrimsonEclipse
Member
Never, because it's not even real.
statham
Member
But i just got a scorpio tattoo...
Smells of meat
Hawk269
Member
Beefier meat or just regular meat?
BTW...Don't be surprised is someone takes that "Smells of meat" and make a thread about it!!!
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
I was under the impression Scorpio would be running all Xbox One games via some form of emulation. Wasn't there job listings a while back that hinted at it?
That's a strange way to view my post. But yeah, a little bit? I mean, Scorpio entire existence is based on the Xbox One's inability to run Multiplatform games consistently at the same level as it's competitor.
By announcing the removal of generations - strongly hinting at 3 year upgrades, it means they can constantly claim to have "the strongest console" almost at all times. This has the flow on effect (in theory) of always being the best place to play multiplats, combined with perpetual backwards compatibility to keep people in the ecosystem.
If Xbox One had been the more powerful console back in 2013, no way Scorpio exists.
That's a strange way to view my post. But yeah, a little bit? I mean, Scorpio entire existence is based on the Xbox One's inability to run Multiplatform games consistently at the same level as it's competitor.
By announcing the removal of generations - strongly hinting at 3 year upgrades, it means they can constantly claim to have "the strongest console" almost at all times. This has the flow on effect (in theory) of always being the best place to play multiplats, combined with perpetual backwards compatibility to keep people in the ecosystem.
If Xbox One had been the more powerful console back in 2013, no way Scorpio exists.
That was clarified to be about the 360 emulator.
anothertech
Member
Chobel and I made the avatar bet of No Zen, vs SenjutsuSage and Leah of Yes Zen.I've already made a bet that it will absolutely be Zen. I forgot who I made it with, but if I check back my old posts I'm sure I'll find it.
Most certainly is, and probably a bigger one in the grand scheme of games development than would be the case for a notably more capable CPU.
Exciting stuff
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Yes, it would because games are becoming more expensive to make, so they wanted to A: give gamers as well as developers more capability without necessarily putting too much pressure on devs to design exclusively for those platforms, at least surely not right away in the case of Scorpio. and B. they needed a way to both make the upgraded systems a much better immediate value to consumers than is usually the case for a newer system, and they also needed to ensure that developers choosing to support the newer systems wouldn't mean they would also have to make immediate sacrifices to the quantity of people they could sell to.
Scorpio and PS4 Pro, regardless of how things played out in 2013, just make a lot of good business sense.
Chobel and I made the avatar bet of No Zen, vs SenjutsuSage and Leah of Yes Zen.
Exciting stuff
Haha can't wait!
CrimsonEclipse
Member
Looks like you done goofed son.
Fabtacular
Member
Can't believe I got tricked into reading five new pages of this thread.
Wish there was a mod toggle on threads like these that switched between "new info!" and "just the same speculating and bickering in circles."
Wish there was a mod toggle on threads like these that switched between "new info!" and "just the same speculating and bickering in circles."
rokkerkory
Member
demigod
Member
Chobel and I made the avatar bet of No Zen, vs SenjutsuSage and Leah of Yes Zen.
Exciting stuff
Wait i thought chobel took the game offer bet vs sage.
unapersson
Member
If there was new info it would be in a new thread, no new thread but new posts means new speculation.
Hey!! That was NEW bickering.
Crayon
Member
I asked Sony they said it's okay.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Its purpose is to play XBOX One games in 4k. A beefed up Jaguar, accompanied by a powerful 6TF GPU and 12 GB RAM, is enough to do that. And it's the cheapest option.
You can always hope for more, but for now Zen is a very, very unlikely choice, let alone Ryzen.
Darkstorne
Member
Exactly. It's not playing any exclusive games, so it only needs to run whatever an OG Xbone can but at native 4K (hence the powerful GPU). There's no point "future proofing" this because holding back next gen games by making them also run on Scorpio (3+ years old by that point) would suck for gamers and developers alike.
Scorpio is not a next-gen ready machine. It is a mid-gen 4K upgrade like the Pro, but Microsoft want to hit native 4K far more often than Sony does so they can objectively be the most powerful console and the best 4K console on the market, for the rest of this generation. There's no point adding a cutting edge CPU that will never be fully utilized and driving up costs.
And not forgeting the available bandwidth...Personally, that sounds like a bloody good system to me...As most have said, MS needs the games to justify...
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
I'm actually intrigued by this idea because of the surfacebook.
Could have the on the go tablet portion and a powerful dock like the keyboard for the surfacebook with the discrete GPU.
This would make sense if MS would still believe in generations.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Is that truly the case, or is that marketing? It seems like a commitment they could largely step back from between now and the start of the next traditional generation if it doesn't seem like it's going to go their way.
Of course you can emulate coding to the metal but it takes way more "power" to do so and Sony was even afraid of letting games coded for the vanilla PS4 run on a higher spec PS4.
That doesn't mean you don't have close hardware access on Xbox but it's not as close as Sony's approach which is why MS seems confident to run XBO games on Scorpio - they even solved that "issue" with 360, a completely different architecture with a completely different ISA.
Of course that could be marketing but I guess that the final specs of Scorpio might tell us what they are trying to achieve.
I don't want to muddy the discussion, I've talked about this several times now, perhaps even in this thread, I don't remember anymore. But it could be that there will never be a hard cut again for Xbox consoles. XBO(s) will fade out, then Scorpio will be the new XBO(s) and its successor will be what Scorpio is now.
Well that goes against what every dev has said who's had hands on with it.
Only as far as framerate goes. These SKUs are targeted at image quality improvement (4K TVs) primarily, and quite explicitly in Scorpio's case. Not so much frametime improvement.
For the purpose Microsoft has given Scorpio - XB1 games for 4K TVs - Jaguar would fit the bill.
Nothing Microsoft has said indicates a new software generation by the way. Quite explicitly the opposite. As far as XB1 games go - and Scorpio is, per MS messaging, a XB1 software machine - Jaguar is all that's needed.
From Spencer comments I've read, I'm also not entirely sure this 'gaming beyond generations' lark isn't just a completely nebulous phrase. From hard policy they've indicated around XB1 and Scorpio, the idea of a software generation doesn't seem to be going away any time soon, and beyond that it seems they're completely playing it by ear. There are certainly no hard commitments out there as far as I can see about Scorpio's relationship with any future software generation(s), so from a hardware point of view, they have all the wiggle room in the world to go with a Jaguar based system if they want/have to. It's possible Microsoft's next software generation will be 'back-dated' to support Scorpio at a baseline, but there's certainly no commitment about that, and it's not entirely in Microsoft's hands if that will be possible (even if they can go with a post-Jaguar design).
MS hasn't magically solved anything. 360 emulation is more or less like ps2 emulation on ps3. They emulate specifically every single game of 360, not the whole library.
And those chats about Zen on it have no sense. They have finalised the hardware built in 2016. I'd like to read more evidence about it than just hope or presuntion. The informations available are far from to lean to Zen. I'd be more than happy to have Zen on it but I don't see any concrete indication from anyone.
You know that the reason that they don't emulate the whole library isn't only a technical issue, don't you?
And of course it is solved for 360 - do you think there is no general approach for MS to get a 360 game to XBO? Like do you think for every game MS starts to write a new emulator? How many people do you think work on every game every time?
It's especially time consuming as it needs good testing. This is not a hobby emulator where people don't expect perfect emulation but on XBO they expect it because they paid for it on the Xbox platform once.
They also didn't emulate every PS2 game individually. There's a general purpose emulator that when used with custom firmware will run almost every PS2 game.
They didn't even really concern themselves with quality control for the releases either, as games like Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution were utterly destroyed by performance issues, which people like me then found out the hard way after having paid for it.
TheScarecrow101
Neo Member
Good point. The one thing coming from the developers who have talked about Scorpio has been that the system, for all they have seen/worked on is that it delivers what Microsoft wanted. A monster. I trust the devs to know what they can do with hardware when you see what some of the teams have done with games in this generation.
Bitch Pudding
Member
You still have to download the XBOX One edition of the XBOX360 game. It's not as simple as putting an XBOX360 disc into your XBOX One and start playing, using the game data on the disc. That's why not every XBOX360 game is BC on XBOX One, they have to slightly adapt every game before it gets approved for the BC programme.
As far as I understood Scorpio's approach, it's supposed to do exactly that: Insert any XBOX One disc and play the game. No specific download of a specific Scorpio edition or patch needed. It plays XBOX One games as they come, just like a PS4 Pro plays any PS4 game.
That said, this technical issue isn't a showstopper for Zen or Ryzen. Price is.
Yes, because for the billionth time: no game on the PS4 or XBO runs off a disc. None. As the 360 "containers" are to XBO a XBO game, it can't run off the disc, also it comes with a slimmed down version of the 360 os which of course also doesn't exist on the disc.
Why is not every game on the system? Because of licensing and how the games are re-packaged and they come with the emulator. The container combines the game, the emulator and the 360 os in one XBO executable.
And you still have to "download" the content from disc to disk as games don't "run" off the disc.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Come on, don't split hairs. Yes, the games have to be installed to the internal disK. (Well, DUH!).
But you still can run most if not all games (after installing them) without downloading any patch. That's what I meant with "using the game data on the disc". In the case of XBOX360 games, that isn't possible, you have to download the BC-enabled XBOX One edition of the game, and the game disC is basically nothing more than your key to being allowed to do so.
So, with regard to Scorpio, it is my understanding that it will be able to play any XBOX One game with the data from the disC, without having to install any patch or download additional / adapted files.
And my other point was that a different CPU generation shouldn't be a problem.
But you still can run most if not all games (after installing them) without downloading any patch. That's what I meant with "using the game data on the disc". In the case of XBOX360 games, that isn't possible, you have to download the BC-enabled XBOX One edition of the game, and the game disC is basically nothing more than your key to being allowed to do so.
So, with regard to Scorpio, it is my understanding that it will be able to play any XBOX One game with the data from the disC, without having to install any patch or download additional / adapted files.
And my other point was that a different CPU generation shouldn't be a problem.
I am not splitting hairs, I am using the correct technical terms.
Again, the current gen systems work as I said: You can't run games off disc. Every "app" for gameos has to be an XBO app to be executed. For 360 games this means you have a package containing the game, the emulator, the 360 os. How would you be able to play a game from disc then? It just doesn't work this way, at all.
Why both Sony and MS chose this way (yes, disc bandwith and latency might also be considered) we don't know but I guess it's also partially a security concern both had - another thing still unanswered to the whole packaging of games is why they need so big patches which exploded this gen. Might be relatet but off-topic.
The point still stands - it can only work in the way they are doing it currently because this is how games on gameos are to be executed.
That Scorpio will have the same gameos and won't need patches to run them is obvious.
MosquitoSmasher
Member
I stand corrected.
I was talking to a friend about Scorpio and just Xbox in general and he believes that Scorpio will be the last Xbox from MS. He claims MS even said this themselves a while ago that this would be their last console generation. Did they ever say this at all? In a way it's true, since Phil Spencer said generations are over for MS.
Bitch Pudding
Member
I stand corrected.
I was talking to a friend about Scorpio and just Xbox in general and he believes that Scorpio will be the last Xbox from MS. He claims MS even said this themselves a while ago that this would be their last console generation. Did they ever say this at all? In a way it's true, since Phil Spencer said generations are over for MS.
Nope. Nope. Nope.
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