Samurai G0SU
Member
Weren't people saying back compat 360 was impossible on the one and if ever implemented would run those games like shit?
Well then. RonBurgundy.jpg
Well then. RonBurgundy.jpg
Depends on how you define emulation. As far as I'm concerned, if there's translation to some code from one architecture to another (which from the look of it, it's exactly what's happening here), then that's some form of emulation.
Sure, but the most used memory management solution on Durango was something MS themselves built into the SDK, specifically because of ESRAM. MS could easily adjust it on their end for a Scorpio configuration.
Thing is if it was just an up clocked Jaguar CPU it would be more unbalanced than PS4 pro. Gotta hope for more.
Isn't memory management handled by the hypervisor with the Xbox One? Wouldn't Microsoft just need to build out the hypervisor to translate any existing ESRAM coding to work across whatever high-speed solution they have in the Scorpio?
I feel that's an extremely generous read on the comments he was making, especially in the context that they were being made. He was effectively arguing against the idea of a Scorpio in the form that we now know exists. I don't want to duplicate the long line of posts that made up the prior discussion, but you can follow the quotes back and read through. More importantly...
...was effectively the argument being put forth in that thread, to which he was arguing against (hence the claim that it would need to also have ESRAM+DDR3 in order to play current XB1 games).
Except the code base for the game, for this Xbox 1.5, would HAVE to be different if the APU is in anyway changed. Unless MS is planning to use an AMD CPU/GPU & eSRAM/DDR3, with the same bus configuration, then it has to have a code base written towards the machine it is running on. There is a lot more to this than just "its running on stronger hardware, game, unlock super-powers." Thats not how game development works.So, under this suggestion then... are you saying that the new model would be unable to natively run Xbox One games released so far?Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. UNLESS the new model was emulating the current XBO, which is a whole other thing altogether. The only way I see it working in this way would be through emulation. But emulation has a ton of its own issues.
I dont think it is 2 versions of the same game, Spencer said the UWA make sit work independent of the hardware. So.. and someone correct me if I am wrong, the same game disk goes in both machines and the software detects the console type and scales the fps, resolution, AA, etc... accordingly.It will never work like that, unless the stronger hardware is emulating the weaker machine. In order for the game to run natively on both machines, it would have to be two versions of the same game.
It's best to keep your expectations low. Look at last year's E3. They didn't announce one single new game, correct me if I'm wrong.
I've said numerous times that the price and specs on this console depend on entirely on whether Microsoft are playing the long or short game.
If they're playing the long game, then this will most definitely be a Zen based console and I'd wager the GPU will be more than the 6TF they've announced. Which also means they COULD potentially go slightly higher than $399. Again, only if they're paying the long game.
Short game would mean $399 or less, Jag based CPU and they simply want the moniker "most powerful console" to make themselves feel better. Then they'll just keep making a slightly more powerful version of whatever Sony releases to keep their nose in front.
I'm hoping for the long game because I feel it's smarter business wise long term. They can keep Scorpi as the base model for a longer time, continue dropping the price and newer versions come out but leave it on the market as the cheap entry point into the ecosystem. Similar to Apple and iPad 2.
I can't imagine a scenario where it's worth the trouble to get Zen in. A faster Jaguar would do everything they need it to do.
No idea, I'm not familiar with on the hypervisor OS works, but whatever the case there will use of some kind of code translation from one target architecture to another. That falls under emulation IMO.
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All I see is that he said it won't run natively if there isn't ESRAM+DDR3. He never said Scorpio can't do it at all.
Here's the qutes you posted
What you are describing is interpreting, just in time/dynamic compiling or a direct instruction translation, not emulation, though these are often tools that emulators use.No idea, I'm not familiar with on the hypervisor OS works, but whatever the case there will use of some kind of code translation from one target architecture to another. That falls under emulation IMO.
What you are describing is interpreting, just in time/dynamic compiling or a direct instruction translation, not emulation, though these are often tools that emulators use.
However in the case of Scorpio running xbone games all it takes is to port the VM to the new architecture handling the system calls (specially esram) properly, it's not any more extra emulation on what even the xbone itself does to run those games.
When do we think we're hear more on this baby?
But i just got a scorpio tattoo...Never, because it's not even real.
Stinkles is unwashed filth like the rest of us!
Smells of meat
Do you really think the higher up people gave the Green light for the development and in short time production, marketing and all the related millions of dollars to bring Scorpio to market because they "want to make themselves feel better"???
I was under the impression Scorpio would be running all Xbox One games via some form of emulation. Wasn't there job listings a while back that hinted at it?
Chobel and I made the avatar bet of No Zen, vs SenjutsuSage and Leah of Yes Zen.I've already made a bet that it will absolutely be Zen. I forgot who I made it with, but if I check back my old posts I'm sure I'll find it.
Most certainly is, and probably a bigger one in the grand scheme of games development than would be the case for a notably more capable CPU.
I was under the impression Scorpio would be running all Xbox One games via some form of emulation. Wasn't there job listings a while back that hinted at it?
That's a strange way to view my post. But yeah, a little bit? I mean, Scorpio entire existence is based on the Xbox One's inability to run Multiplatform games consistently at the same level as it's competitor.
By announcing the removal of generations - strongly hinting at 3 year upgrades, it means they can constantly claim to have "the strongest console" almost at all times. This has the flow on effect (in theory) of always being the best place to play multiplats, combined with perpetual backwards compatibility to keep people in the ecosystem.
If Xbox One had been the more powerful console back in 2013, no way Scorpio exists.
Chobel and I made the avatar bet of No Zen, vs SenjutsuSage and Leah of Yes Zen.
Exciting stuff
But i just got a scorpio tattoo...
Can't believe I got tricked into reading five new pages of this thread.
Wish there was a mod toggle on threads like these that switched between "new info!" and "just the same speculating and bickering in circles."
Chobel and I made the avatar bet of No Zen, vs SenjutsuSage and Leah of Yes Zen.
Exciting stuff
Can't believe I got tricked into reading five new pages of this thread.
Wish there was a mod toggle on threads like these that switched between "new info!" and "just the same speculating and bickering in circles."
Can't believe I got tricked into reading five new pages of this thread.
Wish there was a mod toggle on threads like these that switched between "new info!" and "just the same speculating and bickering in circles."
Ask Sony how that is working out for them!!! I have a PRO and I do enjoy it more than my previous PS4, but the weak Jaguar is definitely preventing it from truly using that powerful GPU.
Thing is if it was just an up clocked Jaguar CPU it would be more unbalanced than PS4 pro. Gotta hope for more.
Exactly. It's not playing any exclusive games, so it only needs to run whatever an OG Xbone can but at native 4K (hence the powerful GPU). There's no point "future proofing" this because holding back next gen games by making them also run on Scorpio (3+ years old by that point) would suck for gamers and developers alike.Its purpose is to play XBOX One games in 4k. A beefed up Jaguar, accompanied by a powerful 6TF GPU and 12 GB RAM, is enough to do that. And it's the cheapest option.
You can always hope for more, but for now Zen is a very, very unlikely choice, let alone Ryzen.
Its purpose is to play XBOX One games in 4k. A beefed up Jaguar, accompanied by a powerful 6TF GPU and 12 GB RAM, is enough to do that. And it's the cheapest option.
You can always hope for more, but for now Zen is a very, very unlikely choice, let alone Ryzen.
Xbox Switch
Exactly. It's not playing any exclusive games, so it only needs to run whatever an OG Xbone can but at native 4K (hence the powerful GPU). There's no point "future proofing" this because holding back next gen games by making them also run on Scorpio (3+ years old by that point) would suck for gamers and developers alike.
Scorpio is not a next-gen ready machine. It is a mid-gen 4K upgrade like the Pro, but Microsoft want to hit native 4K far more often than Sony does so they can objectively be the most powerful console and the best 4K console on the market, for the rest of this generation. There's no point adding a cutting edge CPU that will never be fully utilized and driving up costs.
This would make sense if MS would still believe in generations.
I'm guessing for Sony it's much more complicated?
They coded their games to the metal. Which is basically a no no for BC
Is that truly the case, or is that marketing? It seems like a commitment they could largely step back from between now and the start of the next traditional generation if it doesn't seem like it's going to go their way.
Well that goes against what every dev has said who's had hands on with it.Exactly. It's not playing any exclusive games, so it only needs to run whatever an OG Xbone can but at native 4K (hence the powerful GPU). There's no point "future proofing" this because holding back next gen games by making them also run on Scorpio (3+ years old by that point) would suck for gamers and developers alike.
Scorpio is not a next-gen ready machine. It is a mid-gen 4K upgrade like the Pro, but Microsoft want to hit native 4K far more often than Sony does so they can objectively be the most powerful console and the best 4K console on the market, for the rest of this generation. There's no point adding a cutting edge CPU that will never be fully utilized and driving up costs.
Ask Sony how that is working out for them!!! I have a PRO and I do enjoy it more than my previous PS4, but the weak Jaguar is definitely preventing it from truly using that powerful GPU.
MS hasn't magically solved anything. 360 emulation is more or less like ps2 emulation on ps3. They emulate specifically every single game of 360, not the whole library.Of course you can emulate coding to the metal but it takes way more "power" to do so and Sony was even afraid of letting games coded for the vanilla PS4 run on a higher spec PS4.
That doesn't mean you don't have close hardware access on Xbox but it's not as close as Sony's approach which is why MS seems confident to run XBO games on Scorpio - they even solved that "issue" with 360, a completely different architecture with a completely different ISA.
MS hasn't magically solved anything. 360 emulation is more or less like ps2 emulation on ps3. They emulate specifically every single game of 360, not the whole library.
You know that the reason that they don't emulate the whole library isn't only a technical issue, don't you?
And of course it is solved for 360 - do you think there is no general approach for MS to get a 360 game to XBO? Like do you think for every game MS starts to write a new emulator? How many people do you think work on every game every time?
It's especially time consuming as it needs good testing. This is not a hobby emulator where people don't expect perfect emulation but on XBO they expect it because they paid for it on the Xbox platform once.
Well that goes against what every dev has said who's had hands on with it.
Of course you can emulate coding to the metal but it takes way more "power" to do so and Sony was even afraid of letting games coded for the vanilla PS4 run on a higher spec PS4.
That doesn't mean you don't have close hardware access on Xbox but it's not as close as Sony's approach which is why MS seems confident to run XBO games on Scorpio - they even solved that "issue" with 360, a completely different architecture with a completely different ISA.
You still have to download the XBOX One edition of the XBOX360 game. It's not as simple as putting an XBOX360 disc into your XBOX One and start playing, using the game data on the disc. That's why not every XBOX360 game is BC on XBOX One, they have to slightly adapt every game before it gets approved for the BC programme.
As far as I understood Scorpio's approach, it's supposed to do exactly that: Insert any XBOX One disc and play the game. No specific download of a specific Scorpio edition or patch needed. It plays XBOX One games as they come, just like a PS4 Pro plays any PS4 game.
Come on, don't split hairs. Yes, the games have to be installed to the internal disK. (Well, DUH!).
But you still can run most if not all games (after installing them) without downloading any patch. That's what I meant with "using the game data on the disc". In the case of XBOX360 games, that isn't possible, you have to download the BC-enabled XBOX One edition of the game, and the game disC is basically nothing more than your key to being allowed to do so.
Dead Rising 4(even though it leaked early) and State of Decay 2 were first announce at E3 2016.
I stand corrected.
I was talking to a friend about Scorpio and just Xbox in general and he believes that Scorpio will be the last Xbox from MS. He claims MS even said this themselves a while ago that this would be their last console generation. Did they ever say this at all? In a way it's true, since Phil Spencer said generations are over for MS.