phantasmic_glaive
Member
Nah.. the PS4 would be the Toyota Camry and the Pro would be The Ford F-series.
Two of the best selling vehicles out there.
But, the Viper is cool to tho.
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XBOX Scorpio: DX12 Built Directly Into GPU
- Thread starter Space_nut
- Start date
Nah.. the PS4 would be the Toyota Camry and the Pro would be The Ford F-series.
Two of the best selling vehicles out there.
But, the Viper is cool to tho.
probably a long ways off if it ever comes out
DX12 needed to be released because of inefficiencies...
before DX12... DX11 was potentially considered the final DX iteration
Liabe Brave
Member
In many cases those are the same thing. Well-optimized software is very efficient on the hardware it runs on, thus demanding less of the hardware's power to achieve the same results. Or freeing up power to achieve better-than-usual results, as Forza does.
Salty Rice
Member
It would be a game changer.
LordOfChaos
Member
Most Xboxes have lived on a single generation of DX, so, likely, nothing. The Xbox One was unique because it launched with DX11 (a streamlined Xbox optimized version, but still), which wasn't low level enough, and so got an update to 12.
By the time DX13 rolls around the next box will reasonably be ready. DX12 should last a good long while though as it allows so much freedom.
geordiemp
Member
LOL, you drinking the DX12 cool aid.
I am sure I have said before, die shots will show its a standard Jaguar CPU pixel for pixel image likeness of the Ps4. I believe that every console has had a heavily customised Jaguar, so MS shoved DX 12 in there.....But But the Dx12 secret sauce lol
I predict the GPU and bandwidth will give lovely IQ, but CPU at + 10 % wont do MUCH for 30 FPS games. Lets come back to this thread when games are out...
If some 30 FPS games on Ps4 Pro are running at 60 on Scorpio I will stand corrected, but I seriously doubt it as if that was the case MS would have said how it makes the CPU much faster and can run games faster.......instead of the PR DX12 draw call vague wording.
If Scorpio could run Witcher 3 at 1080p60 I would pre-order it, I dont believe it for 1 millisecond and a 2.3 GHz Jaguar will be the turd around its neck, the same way 2.1 GHz jag is the turd around my Ps4 Pro's neck.
Here it was.
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...a-useful-reference.46956/page-10#post-1866698
So they went from using 3 cores, to .2ms on a single core.
I'm sure the results and applicability of these functions will vary though.
Kind of late on this, but they were talking about a whole lot more than draw call usage there. Culling and other scene processing etc. It's not really a good reference point for what draw call usage on its own was like, and how much draw-call cost might be there to be optimised away further by improvements in new hardware.
30fps to 60fps isn't my focus. I care about the actual visual fidelity. That Scorpio will be very much ahead of pro with 4K assets, better AF, 4K native res, more stable fps (either it be 30 or 60) and more
Being able to play a game 30fps or 60fps is a devs choice. But I tell you that the ForzaTech demo that ran 4K native, 60fps rock solid, DYNAMIC WEATHER, pc ultra settings using only 60%-88% of gpu resources says a lot. Add to that it was only a 2 day port with NO utilization of any Scorpio custom tech.
MarkMclovin
Member
This will be my 4K console.
I think I dodged a bullet nearly buying the PS4 Pro a few months back, especially with the fan noise issues, lack of Ultra HD drive and barely much difference in frame rates.
If the cost is the same as the Pro, it's a no brainer.
I think I dodged a bullet nearly buying the PS4 Pro a few months back, especially with the fan noise issues, lack of Ultra HD drive and barely much difference in frame rates.
If the cost is the same as the Pro, it's a no brainer.
geordiemp
Member
Yes Scorpio will have a 10 % faster CPU which will be the bottleneck, but my Ps4 pro is pretty stable on most games, you cant be more stable at a capped 30 FPS.
If Ps4 pro is running at potentially 40 FPS for example, and my point is Scorpio at 44 FPS is not worth it as both will be capped at 30.... Scorpio is not more STABLE, they are both SMOOTH equally.
Now a Ryzen with (is it 1.7 IPC) would run that game at a SMOOTH 60 FPS, its a shame we wont get a proper console CPU until maybe 2019 IMO
Also being able to play a game at 30 or 60 is often limited by console hardware - most 3rd party games that we get 30 on console are 60 on PC, so its NOT a dev choice, its JAGUAR is so damn inefficient. I admit scorpio will get rid of other bottlenecks, but Jag remains.
Also dont use racing games as a benchmark, Ps3 ran wipeout at 1080p60 in 2008, if you use such genres as a power indication it only leads to disappointment.
RDR2 I bet will be 30 on Pro and Scorpio and wont look much different until you zoom in close on the grass lol. I would be excited if console could do 1080p60 on such a game ...but FAT CHANCE !
I though they said that the directx instructions were embedded in a separate part calling it a GPU command processor
It is DF stated about 60 hardware improvements were made to the GPU
They're releasing more articles about this soon
Samurai G0SU
Member
So you're saying that the extra amount of CPU resource and draw call reduction will only give it a 4 FPS advantage?
Crazy that the Xbox one S vs the Xbox One sometimes has a 7+ FPS lead and it's not even a 10% increase.
It's ok he knows his stuff more than DF. Let him sleep he needs to be ok with his pro
how many games do have 7fps on XBOs vs vanilla XBO'
The increase on CPU for Scorpio vs PS4Pro is below 10%. How many CPU time does this DX12 dedicated hardware free?
If i am not mistaken in the vid yeasterray was mentioned hat in the best case, DX12 calls would use 40% of cpu, and this customization would allow, again in ideal conditions, reduce this by 50%, so that would mean en extra 20% cpu boost, a total of 1.3 cpu power vs PS4Pro.
Now, how can that mean 30 fps games can go up to 60? Only games fluctuating over 46fps would be able, in a ideal scenario, and considering this is 100% truh, reach 60 fps.
lol this reads like console warrior stuff.
dr_rus
Member
It's not a dumb question and it illustrates perfectly well why "moving" anything from DX to GPU is a bad idea in the first place (even if we disregard the fact that such moving is impossible in the first place).
We're at a second rather major update of DX12 with the 1703 launch, what makes you think that there won't be a third, fourth, fifth, etc? Version number doesn't mean much these days, it's how often the s/w is being updated. 1703 update, for example, is introducing a way of including new experimental features in DX without MS participation in this even, by just adding them to the API which is already in use (somewhat similar to GL/VK extensions).
So did ms and df lie about this or what ?
splattered
Member
So you're saying that the version of DX12 releasing with the Scorpio will be the ONLY version the system ever sees? Just because of where it's being implemented?
No version updates or major upgrades ever?
I dunno I kinda find it hard to believe they would lock themselves in like that...
CassidyIzABeast
Member
DX13 probably won't be out until 2025.
LordOfChaos
Member
Polaris's command processor was reprogrammable, likely there's enough slack space for updates to 12 for some time to come.
dr_rus
Member
I have no idea. What they've said makes no sense but that doesn't mean that there were no actual h/w changes to better align the Scorpio's GPU with Xbox APIs. They didn't say anything which can be deciphered into a solid technical data so we can only guess.
What I'm saying is that it's unlikely that whatever MS did for Scorpio is actually tying the Xbox h/w to the one API version they have currently running on Scorpio - and rather unlikely that they even did anything to the GCN h/w beyond what's already there in Polaris and/or Vega. They may have tweaked Xbox APIs to better suit the specific GCN revision used in Scorpio and that might've given them some CPU overhead reduction. This seems like the most possible scenario here.
CalamityPixel
Member
Now it actually is a Direct X Box
cartoon_soldier
Member
How soon?
LelouchZero
Member
You completely dismissed the limitations of the current gen console CPUs, as if it was fictitious.
I don't agree with the numbers in their post as we don't know for certain until we see how it performs in games but the Jaguar CPUs are a serious constraint in these systems, we're pretty much stuck with 30 fps console games for the entire generation in CPU intensive titles such as GTA 5 and probably the upcoming Red Dead Redemption 2.
Many 30 fps multi-platform console games can be enjoyed at 60+ fps on PCs thanks to their more powerful CPUs, offering game-changing experiences. We could have this on consoles too if they had more powerful CPUs, but unfortunately they don't.
They did mention there would be more over the next couple/few days yesterday...I believe. I'd love to see further detail on this stuff.
This is truth sauce.
Which developers?
I'd rather hear from devs that have actually worked on the hardware. 2nd hand opinions do nothing for me.
Not sure why you put dynamic weather all in caps or even mention it. If dynamic weather is on Scorpio, it will need to be on XBO as well. So something like that isn't possible because of some special sauce in Scorpio. It also wasn't running near 60% with ultra settings. It averaged around 88% and hit 100% at times.
I get you're excited about Scorpio, but that's no reason to spread falsehoods.
I bet you will be able to see a difference in RDR2. No reason to think both versions will look the same.
In the end, it's not like today's GPUs would be 100% compliant with DX12 anyways. If they could add in additional hardware to take some of the load off of the CPU, no reason not to do it.
Samurai G0SU
Member
I'm impatient and i want the video/article out now! haha even though they just released like 4 articles and 2 videos yesterday. lol
dreamcastfan
Member
Unless they patch it to do so.
Its jaguar with some customization. And smaller nm process.
It just added Blast Processing is all.
There is no way to tell at this time. We need to have a better idea of how demanding draw calls are on the CPU without the additional hardware.
dragonelite
Member
Don't expect huge improvements its a couple of specific Dx12 api calls if im not mistaken.
Also don't forget we are talking about couple of thousands instructions on a core that does multiple billions of instructions per second.
It might stabilize a game to 30fps if the cpu was constrained by calling d3d12 functions.
LordOfChaos
Member
Jaguar+ on that spectrum, definitely.
Reducing the rendering overhead by half != freeing up half the processor, DX12 already had an efficient renderer. Jaguar cores being what they are it may have been a larger proportion of their workload than a PC processor, but we're not bringing a 50% load down to 0, more like a fraction of the load down to half.
Nicety, but not a game changer, and not a performance doubler.
Thanks guys. With the talk of Xbox running on hypervisors a lot of predictions where that the CPU would have been upgraded for another and that it was an easy thing to do. I guess this all came primarily down to cost in the end (there was rumours of a another CPU for the pro as we'll but at an addition of 100 bucks onto the price?). They definitely going in for that sweet £399 IMHO
Only thing I can think of is a Metro2033 dev said they used a full Jag core for it:
Wasn't that on DX11 though? Also, it just sounds like it's improving something which the X1 was poor at, rather than it being something useful across all consoles.
LordOfChaos
Member
I think that was before it got DX12 at all, but that still brings up an interesting point that draw calls cost almost nothing on the PS4 already, from the 2013 hardware.
Maybe even with 12 the XBO was worse at that than GNM, which everything would indicate goes even lower than DX12 (not as perfectly portable accross hardware for instance).
Edit: Yeah it was in context of DX11
This sounds a lot like what MS just said, a few thousand cycles brought down to just 11 with a few keywords on the main processor.
Maybe Sony already had this?
geordiemp
Member
I picked those numbers just to illustrate my point, you know this. Anyway, Bookmark it, chips works will tell us allot as well when it comes on the CPU, and when games come to DF.... games will run the same frame rate wise IMO - I would need more facts before being gullible enough to think a Jaguar could perform well..
Got 2 Ps3, 2 360, 2 Ps4, 2 Ps4 Pro - all hooked up to 2 x 55 inch 4 K tv's on same wall..... and will buy 2 scorpio IF it can run games better....but hey keep your fanboy nonsense to yourself and keep fighting the good fight, this is not N4g. I did not get an Xb1 as 900p wass not acceptable to me.
I even said RDR2 will be better IQ on Scorpio, and if I put my reading glasses on and go 2 ft infront of my 55 inch I might be able to see it, if textures are higher quality that will probably be biggest difference (if Rockstar do it of course).
You can go and read my old posts on Neo a while back, I could not care less about the 4K or quality of pixels or 4.2 TF, I just wanted a console with a decent CPU, bandwidth and memory access that would be capable of Witcher 3 at 1080p60. Pro is not that console, NEITHER IS SCORPIO.
My point is that RDR2 will be solid 30 FPS on Scorpio and Pro is my understanding and no DX sectret sauce will cover up the crap CPU's, hence its not worth me changing over (I change between Sony and MS regularly over the years IF its worth the effort)
Dictator93
Member
I think that interview with the 4A games engine person was pre-DX12 on xb1 as well as "pre mono-driver". Their game's release on x1 did not use the mono-driver if I recall that interview correctly.
Looking at modern game releases on consoles, it is hard to say how draw call limited they actually are or whether or not CPU bottlenecks come in other areas. I cannot remember at the moment, but there was a presentation not too long ago discussing drawcalls on PS4/xb1 for a modern AAA game... it was around 3500. I thought that to be a bit low given how "low and to the metal" these consoles are.
I am pretty sure the AC Unity presentation goes over how they got around a lot of draw calls by switching their entire engine design for Anvil Next.
Looking at modern game releases on consoles, it is hard to say how draw call limited they actually are or whether or not CPU bottlenecks come in other areas. I cannot remember at the moment, but there was a presentation not too long ago discussing drawcalls on PS4/xb1 for a modern AAA game... it was around 3500. I thought that to be a bit low given how "low and to the metal" these consoles are.
I am pretty sure the AC Unity presentation goes over how they got around a lot of draw calls by switching their entire engine design for Anvil Next.
dragonelite
Member
That does sounds low.
Lets do some arithmetic let say a draw call takes 15k cycles.
3.500 * 15.000 = 52.500.000(52.5mhz) cycles for draw calls
One Xbox one core runs at 1.75Ghz(1750mhz)
52.5 / 1750 * 100% = 2.9% of a core cycles spent on draw calls.
No wonder those draw calls are hard to find in a profiler.
Edited: The draw calls can take hundreds of thousands of cycles apparently, so it more like 30~60% of the cycles of one core.
LordOfChaos
Member
So a 3% load cut in half, roughly...
For a single silicon feature that's actually not a bad boost, but definitely no game changer. It sounds like Sonys system already used a few cycles per draw calls with a few dwords too.
Liabe Brave
Member
It's pre-DX12, but it was on the "mono driver", as explicitly stated in the quote above.
In any case, it seems that DX12 implementation, and now the customized support in Scorpio, are just meant to shrink the API overhead to around the level PS4's API has already been at for years. No matter how effective this most recent plan, it sounds like it won't provide comparative advantage, but rather parity.
Leyasu
Banned
That's because it is
Do you have any links supporting this? Would be interested in reading about the APIs overhead.
Sniffynose
Member
Sounds really good, but just like everything the question is whether or not anyone actually makes use of the tech inside.
It's a shame the CPU side is pretty meh, but maybe with all the offloading it evens out.
Might be an excellent option for people not wanting to build a PC but want PC performance in games.
I honestly can't buy one though since I've built a PC recently and with Xbox exclusives like Forza Horizon 3 being on PC I already have the 4k options.
If this was a brand new generation then ya, I'd bite but knowing everything will just be graphical updates vs OG Xbox one it's not very appealing.
Kinda like the PS4 Pro it would be the ideal first time buyer's system, but it's being held back by the past hardware limitations since drastic changes can't be made between them.
It's a shame the CPU side is pretty meh, but maybe with all the offloading it evens out.
Might be an excellent option for people not wanting to build a PC but want PC performance in games.
I honestly can't buy one though since I've built a PC recently and with Xbox exclusives like Forza Horizon 3 being on PC I already have the 4k options.
If this was a brand new generation then ya, I'd bite but knowing everything will just be graphical updates vs OG Xbox one it's not very appealing.
Kinda like the PS4 Pro it would be the ideal first time buyer's system, but it's being held back by the past hardware limitations since drastic changes can't be made between them.