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[Rightisright]

You forgot what Zhuge said, though. XSX has higher BOM than PS5. RAM is cheaper in PS5 surely, APU is also cheaper in PS5. I'll bet that PS5 will be cheaper than XSX. Min.50 Max. 100$ in price difference. Btw. plus Sony produces some of their own materials as well ( cooling, some SSD stuff ).

Also the XSX BOM should be less as back in Feb when he tweeted that the general view was that the XSX APU was around the 400mm, while the actual size is only 360mm, well below what people were banking on when making their BOM predictions.
Both systems will have similar costs.

 

[Rightisright]

You're basically proving my point. Microsoft has always had more money in the bank than Sony, but they never capitalized on it. And it's not only until now that they're getting their shit together. Even then, there is uncertainty because just because your throw more money at development, that doesn't automatically make the games good. Most of Microsoft's 1st party studios need to establish a reputation first while most of Sony's studios have already established their reputations. The market isn't going to wait and throwing more money doesn't magically dilate time.

In addition, citing Microsoft's cash reserves is irrelevant since the company works on a division structure whereas Playstation is subsidiary. You would have a point if Xbox is a subsidiary and those cash reserves is the subsidiary's. However, that is not the case.

That's taking the negative view of it.
Obsidien are one of the best RPG devs out there. Playground make the best racing game in the market, Ninja Theory are high level devs, as shown by the melts from Sony fans when MS bought them. 343, The Coalition, Turn 10, Rare already have a track record. And it's not like all of Sony's studios are AAA quality. Media Molecule, Pixelopus, London Studio and Fowardworks are no bigger or better than InXile, Double Fine, Compulsion or Undead Labs.

 

[Zefros]

That's taking the negative view of it.
Obsidien are one of the best RPG devs out there. Playground make the best racing game in the market, Ninja Theory are high level devs, as shown by the melts from Sony fans when MS bought them. 343, The Coalition, Turn 10, Rare already have a track record. And it's not like all of Sony's studios are AAA quality. Media Molecule, Pixelopus, London Studio and Fowardworks are no bigger or better than InXile, Double Fine, Compulsion or Undead Labs.

Take out media molecule please , even if you don't like their games they still have a pretty amazing track record with both Little big planet 1+2 and dreams:

Meta for lbp 95, lbp 2 92 and dreams 89.

 

[longdi]

520 to 499
is easier than
450 to 399

450 to 499
is easier than
450 to 399

 

[Kenpachii]

Microsoft will launch at whatever sony prices there box. They will not ever let them walk away again.
And a 2,28ghz GPU with 5,5gb ssd modules yea they aint coming cheap.

from phil:

When we saw the public disclosure, I felt even better about the choices that we made on our platform. And I kind of expected that I would. The hardware team...that did... Xbox One X...I have a lot of confidence in them. If I give them the time and the targets to go hit... I just believe in their ability to... create.

I feel good about the price we'll be able to get to. I feel good about the price and performance capabilities that we have with Xbox Series X. I feel incredibly strong about the overall package... We think it's a winning plan... We're going to make sure we stay agile on our pricing.

 

[Rightisright]

From Sony's point of view, if they launch at say 499 and MS,do the same, does anyone think people who have a PS4 and are in the Sony ecosystem, won't still get a PS5? Sony only have to worry if they are more expensive.

 

[ethomaz]

What about the audio and I/O portions of the silicon that Sony have put into the PS5? I assume that is some of the reason the PS5 does not have the larger GPU of the XSX.

maybe it is a chiplet design and I’m overestimating but I think they’ll cost similar to each other.

It is small and already counted in the cost of the APU.

 

[Deeper Underground]

Yes, MS is going to try and undercut PS5 and then turn around and sell Lockhart for $299? Phil Spencer can say all he wants, but last thing MS wants to do is lose a ton of cash on XSX when they are already under the microscope of the MS board and investors. They didn’t just get a blank check to run wild with.

 

[prag16]

It'll be a mistake for either of them to launch at $499. If PS4 had launched at that number, its sales arc may have gone very differently.

 

[Neo_game]

PS4 die size: 348 mm^2, 0 MB ESRAM, 18 CU, $100 cost
XBO die size: 362 mm^2, 32 MB ESRAM, 12 CU, $110 cost

PS5 die size: 3xx mm^2, 72 MB ESRAM, 36 CU, $120 cost
XSX die size: 360 mm^2, 0 MB ESRAM, 52 CU, $110 cost

You are a fool if you think you can just cut the die size by the relative number of CUs. There's a very good chance that the PS5 APU is larger than the XSX APU because of ESRAM. The questions is why does PS5 even need ESRAM. I suppose it's because raytracing was an afterthought. You need high memory bandwidth for raytracing and their original memory setup is not sufficient. So they add 72 MB of very fast ESRAM to process the rays. Same way that Microsoft needed to reach higher bandwidth on Xbox One.

Is this a exclusive April 1 post ? I saw the GDC talk and I do not remember any talk about PS5 esram.

Other than the custom I/O and storage of PS5. Xbox has higher BOM for sure as most people expect. PS5 form factor, unique cooling probably is more as Xbox has no design whatsoever. Having said that I think Sony would want to sell PS5 for 500$ as well.

 

[K.N.W.]

Happy April fools day to you too! This is a CPU graph

Navi10 has 1.2V vcore and you need 1.2V to manualy oc it in 2100-2150mhz range (gpu draws 250W by itself after oc)
AMD set Navi 10 at 1.2V for 1800-2000mhz stock clocks.

RDNA2 is said to be more power efficient than old cards, we'll see how it works out

 

[it_wasn't_me]

Also the XSX BOM should be less as back in Feb when he tweeted that the general view was that the XSX APU was around the 400mm, while the actual size is only 360mm, well below what people were banking on when making their BOM predictions.
Both systems will have similar costs.

If XSX can have a smaller APU than what rumors said, then PS5 can have even smaller APU, hm?

 

[ZywyPL]

Microsoft will launch at whatever sony prices there box. They will not ever let them walk away again.

I'm not so sure about that, he never said it directly, I feel it's just people hearing what they want to hear and spreading misinformation further. Maybe he really meant exactly that, but what if he meant they will have Lockhart to backup the price battle? He says about decisions, strategy, he already announced "family" of Scarlett devices long time ago, so I personally feel they will sandwich the PS5 price with two different XB models.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

I think they are neck and neck cost wise, and his tweets show that.
His high end would be allowing price blowouts on RAM, issues with 7+nm yields etc.

It's not a neck and neck if he said that XSX's BOM cost is higher than PS5.

 

[Kenpachii]

It's not a neck and neck if he said that XSX's BOM cost is higher than PS5.

Who's he that pedo kid from resetera?, wouldn't even touch any material this guy posted by a mile.

I'm not so sure about that, he never said it directly, I feel it's just people hearing what they want to hear and spreading misinformation further. Maybe he really meant exactly that, but what if he meant they will have Lockhart to backup the price battle? He says about decisions, strategy, he already announced "family" of Scarlett devices long time ago, so I personally feel they will sandwich the PS5 price with two different XB models.

He addressed the price issue from xbox one so he knows its a issue, he also addressed the power problem. It's pretty obvious they going to price it competitively. Did he straight up said so no, because how could he? he doesn't even know the PS5 price.

Personally i hope sony gets some spanking this gen so we will be seeing more of there games on PC, the exclusive bullshit needs to stop. And for the PS5 owners it will result in even more games at the end of the day. And maybe if they are lucky it will keep microsoft into the console space to keep it relevant.

 

[Rightisright]

If XSX can have a smaller APU than what rumors said, then PS5 can have even smaller APU, hm?

Sure, why not.

 

[Rightisright]

It's not a neck and neck if he said that XSX's BOM cost is higher than PS5.

460 vs 450. Neck and neck.

 

[darkinstinct]

It's not a neck and neck if he said that XSX's BOM cost is higher than PS5.

He said that when everybody assumed that XSX APU was 402 mm2. We now know that it's 360 mm2.

 

[Yoboman]

MS is in a far better financial position than Sony to discount their console.
Getting off to a good start is important at a console launch. MS learnt a lot of lessons with the Xbone, one being that a $100 dearer was a bad thing. Phil said they won't be beaten out on power or price this gen. He followed up on point 1, and I don't doubt they will on point 2.

MS have lost 3 generations in a row without much to show for it and are coming off a massive flop. Theres always the risk MS will pull the whole division if they launch another losing console that is also losing money on every unit sold

 

[FranXico]

They didn’t just get a blank check to run wild with.

It kind of sounds like they did though.

 

[FranXico]

MS have lost 3 generations in a row without much to show for it and are coming off a massive flop. Theres always the risk MS will pull the whole division if they launch another losing console that is also losing money on every unit sold

If that was to happen, it would have been this gen. If they are still around, that means they are being supported.

 

[Yoboman]

If that was to happen, it would have been this gen. If they are still around, that means they are being supported.

They almost did leave if not for Phil Spencer fighting for it

A few months later, Spencer took over as head of Xbox. Whatever jubilation he felt was short-lived; a few weeks into the job, he got a call from Satya Nadella... 'I don't actually know a whole lot about why we're in gaming,' Nadella told him... Many developers who had worked on the Xbox One felt let down by Microsoft's big vision; it was, as some told Spencer, not in line with 'the soul' of what Xbox was. 'Satya was transparent that there could be a future where gaming isn't a business that Microsoft should be in,' Spencer told me... He looked at where Xbox had failed, and how the brand could be saved — if at all. When he finally called Nadella back, it was to say this: 'If we're going to stay in the gaming space, then let's make sure we're all-in. The last thing I wanted to do was run the gaming organization here as kind of an afterthought of the company and kind of half-in, half-out. Let's go fix who we are.'

Another failure isn't in the cards for them. They are first and foremost an OS company. If they continue to fail and lose money at it, its only a matter of time until someone asks again "why are we even in gaming?"

 

[Lone Wolf]

MS have lost 3 generations in a row without much to show for it and are coming off a massive flop. Theres always the risk MS will pull the whole division if they launch another losing console that is also losing money on every unit sold

It’s not a “massive flop”, Xbox one has made more money than the OG Xbox and Xbox 360 did.

 

[Hostile_18]

Not according to Cerny. He gave the reason for that size. Plus, the cost is in the controller part of it, not the actual memory size.

What's the reason if not cost? I must of missed it.

 

[Rightisright]

What's the reason if not cost? I must of missed it.

“To reach our bandwidth target of 5 gigabytes a second, we ended up with a 12 channel interface,” he explained. “Eight channels wouldn’t be enough. The resulting bandwidth we have achieved is actually five and a half gigabytes a second,” he added. And then came the unexpected part. “With 12 channel interface, the most natural size that emerges for an SSD is 825GB,”

 

[Rightisright]

MS have lost 3 generations in a row without much to show for it and are coming off a massive flop. Theres always the risk MS will pull the whole division if they launch another losing console that is also losing money on every unit sold

Nah no risk of it. They have gone hard for this generation. Not only that but MS has a shit ton of income coming in from the PC gaming world that Sony now wants to get their hands on.
Sony was in that much trouble that in 2014 they were given a 78% chance of going bankrupt in the next two years. They sold a shit ton of assets off to try and reduce their debt. Their phone division is nearly dead, compact cameras are dead, they killed of their laptop division, Chinese companies like TCL and Hisence are killing their margins in the TV world, their car audio sucks balls and I could go on. PlayStation is their biggest profit stream, so they better hope and pray they dont have another PS3 on their hands or they could well shut up shop.

 

[Hostile_18]

“To reach our bandwidth target of 5 gigabytes a second, we ended up with a 12 channel interface,” he explained. “Eight channels wouldn’t be enough. The resulting bandwidth we have achieved is actually five and a half gigabytes a second,” he added. And then came the unexpected part. “With 12 channel interface, the most natural size that emerges for an SSD is 825GB,”

Its above my head a little bit I must admit. I had no idea a spec could have a preferred hardrive size. What is the optimal PS4 hardrive size? I put 2 tb in it without even thinking about the effect in performance.

Does this mean if we increase the PS5 SSD it might have a negative effect on performance?

 

[darkinstinct]

Is this a exclusive April 1 post ? I saw the GDC talk and I do not remember any talk about PS5 esram.

Other than the custom I/O and storage of PS5. Xbox has higher BOM for sure as most people expect. PS5 form factor, unique cooling probably is more as Xbox has no design whatsoever. Having said that I think Sony would want to sell PS5 for 500$ as well.

We even had a thread about it:

PS5 Large on-chip SRAM pool why is it being ignored?

www.neogaf.com

Its above my head a little bit I must admit. I had no idea a spec could have a preferred hardrive size. What is the optimal PS4 hardrive size? I put 2 tb in it without even thinking about the effect in performance.

Does this mean if we increase the PS5 SSD it might have a negative effect on performance?

No, it just means that the next step up would be 1.65 TB.

 

[darkinstinct]

They almost did leave if not for Phil Spencer fighting for it



Another failure isn't in the cards for them. They are first and foremost an OS company. If they continue to fail and lose money at it, its only a matter of time until someone asks again "why are we even in gaming?"

LOL, OS revenue is like 17 % of Microsoft's overall revenue. They are a cloud company first and foremost. And they made sure that their gaming efforts are driven by cloud services, like Azure for PS Now, for xCloud, Azure Playfab, Xbox Live, ... They even made sure that the XSX hardware could be used for other cloud/machine learning purposes.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

460 vs 450. Neck and neck.

What if XSX BOM is 520$?

 

[it_wasn't_me]

He said that when everybody assumed that XSX APU was 402 mm2. We now know that it's 360 mm2.

Then PS5 APU must be smaller than that.

 

[darkinstinct]

Then PS5 APU must be smaller than that.

No, because it has 72 MB ESRAM. Just like XBO APU was larger than PS4 APU despite being 40 % less powerful, the same thing can happen again.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

No, because it has 72 MB ESRAM. Just like XBO APU was larger than PS4 APU despite being 40 % less powerful, the same thing can happen again.

Xbox fan, is this a joke? How do you know it's 72 ESRAM?

 

[it_wasn't_me]

PS4 die size: 348 mm^2, 0 MB ESRAM, 18 CU, $100 cost
XBO die size: 362 mm^2, 32 MB ESRAM, 12 CU, $110 cost

PS5 die size: 3xx mm^2, 72 MB ESRAM, 36 CU, $120 cost
XSX die size: 360 mm^2, 0 MB ESRAM, 52 CU, $110 cost

You are a fool if you think you can just cut the die size by the relative number of CUs. There's a very good chance that the PS5 APU is larger than the XSX APU because of ESRAM. The questions is why does PS5 even need ESRAM. I suppose it's because raytracing was an afterthought. You need high memory bandwidth for raytracing and their original memory setup is not sufficient. So they add 72 MB of very fast ESRAM to process the rays. Same way that Microsoft needed to reach higher bandwidth on Xbox One.

Sony uses DRAM for their SSD controller (that's why it can be so fast), Microsoft doesn't. DRAM prices exploded this year. That's easily $7.50 more for the Sony SSD. They also need to use NAND that is good for the sustained high speeds, that's another $10 they have to spend more on their SSD. It doesn't help that NAND prices also went up and that the high quality NAND Sony uses is in limited supply.

We absolutely do know. AMD sells designs. That's why they have customers, because unlike Nvidia they actually sell the complete APU design and retain no rights. They get a fixed sum for the contract and get paid for every APU ordered. How powerful the APU is has nothing to do with how much it costs, it's just a different design. Just like with Xbox One Microsoft had other priorities than Sony, but overall they went for a comparable transistor budget. Just Sony spent it on CUs, Microsoft on ESRAM. Now they have reversed the roles.

Naaaah! You didn't ignored the ESRAM for PS5, but you ignored it for XSX.

There are customisations to the CPU core - specifically for security, power and performance, and with 76MB of SRAM across the entire SoC, it's reasonable to assume that the gigantic L3 cache found in desktop Zen 2 chips has been somewhat reduced.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs

So, there is a very, very good chance that PS5 still have a smaller APU than XSX.

 

[Yoboman]

LOL, OS revenue is like 17 % of Microsoft's overall revenue. They are a cloud company first and foremost. And they made sure that their gaming efforts are driven by cloud services, like Azure for PS Now, for xCloud, Azure Playfab, Xbox Live, ... They even made sure that the XSX hardware could be used for other cloud/machine learning purposes.

They are not a Cloud company first as and foremost but it is their major growth driver and that has nothing to do with Cloud services for gaming I can assure you

 

[Yoboman]

Nah no risk of it. They have gone hard for this generation. Not only that but MS has a shit ton of income coming in from the PC gaming world that Sony now wants to get their hands on.
Sony was in that much trouble that in 2014 they were given a 78% chance of going bankrupt in the next two years. They sold a shit ton of assets off to try and reduce their debt. Their phone division is nearly dead, compact cameras are dead, they killed of their laptop division, Chinese companies like TCL and Hisence are killing their margins in the TV world, their car audio sucks balls and I could go on. PlayStation is their biggest profit stream, so they better hope and pray they dont have another PS3 on their hands or they could well shut up shop.

Sony has way more gaming revenue coming in than MS does in console and PC gaming combined. Besides the point though. Companies don't support dead weight on their profit line for no reason, Xbox has to prove it is profitable and successful for MS just as Playstation does for Sony or heads will roll in either company. MS having a bigger bank account doesn't offer any security besides the company as a whole being able to weather a failure - that doesn't mean they'd be willing to continue to do it though. Especially when MS are far less reliant on having a success and would have far more investors saying just get rid of it if its fails

 

[Trogdor1123]

How accurate were Bom predictions for last generation?

 

[darkinstinct]

Naaaah! You didn't ignored the ESRAM for PS5, but you ignored it for XSX.



https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs

So, there is a very, very good chance that PS5 still have a smaller APU than XSX.

Thanks, first time I read that. In that case, yes, the PS5 APU should be cheaper.

 

[Deeper Underground]

Nah no risk of it. They have gone hard for this generation. Not only that but MS has a shit ton of income coming in from the PC gaming world that Sony now wants to get their hands on.
Sony was in that much trouble that in 2014 they were given a 78% chance of going bankrupt in the next two years. They sold a shit ton of assets off to try and reduce their debt. Their phone division is nearly dead, compact cameras are dead, they killed of their laptop division, Chinese companies like TCL and Hisence are killing their margins in the TV world, their car audio sucks balls and I could go on. PlayStation is their biggest profit stream, so they better hope and pray they dont have another PS3 on their hands or they could well shut up shop.

And I’ve officially gotten tired of reading your nonsense.

 

[LittleBusters]

Apparently there are many people who think Sony has some magic supply-chain fu that will enable them to undercut XSX. Good luck with that.

 

[LittleBusters]

LOL, OS revenue is like 17 % of Microsoft's overall revenue. They are a cloud company first and foremost. And they made sure that their gaming efforts are driven by cloud services, like Azure for PS Now, for xCloud, Azure Playfab, Xbox Live, ... They even made sure that the XSX hardware could be used for other cloud/machine learning purposes.

Yes, this. Sony is set up with gaming such that their entire fortune revolves around Playstation sales. Microsoft gaming has several components, one of which is being spun up(Project xCloud) which could be a multi-billion $ business in a few years. I don't think Phil Spencer is so deluded to think XBox will ever sell 100 million units in a generation. He knows that it's going to be a combination of:

XBox hardware + XBox Game Pass for PC + xCloud + 1st party games on Steam + accessories

Short term, Sony will still make 2x revenue of MS Gaming, but 5 years from now I could see MS catching up to achieve parity. By 2030, MS Gaming will be #1.

 

[Ascend]

Yes, this. Sony is set up with gaming such that their entire fortune revolves around Playstation sales. Microsoft gaming has several components, one of which is being spun up(Project xCloud) which could be a multi-billion $ business in a few years. I don't think Phil Spencer is so deluded to think XBox will ever sell 100 million units in a generation. He knows that it's going to be a combination of:

XBox hardware + XBox Game Pass for PC + xCloud + 1st party games on Steam + accessories

Short term, Sony will still make 2x revenue of MS Gaming, but 5 years from now I could see MS catching up to achieve parity. By 2030, MS Gaming will be #1.

I mostly agree. But the XBox Hardware sales will most likely be at a loss for them. The hardware is a means to push their other services that are profitable.

 

[Jigsaah]

This might deserve it's own thread...but somebody else will need to do it. I'm at work (from home).



sorry if old.

TLDW....leaked by Canadian retailer that PS5 will be $600 canadian...bout $400 Dollars US.

 

[LittleBusters]

I mostly agree. But the XBox Hardware sales will most likely be at a loss for them. The hardware is a means to push their other services that are profitable.

Console hardware will be sold at a loss for both MS & Sony. Obviously it's the shaver blade scenario, all the money is in the games. Whoever can have a bigger attach rate will make more money on that side of things.

However there are many other components:

XBox Live Gold
Project xCloud
XBox All Access
Xbox Game Pass(Xbox or PC)
premium accessories like XBox Design Labs, Elite Controller, Adaptive Controller
1st party sales on Steam, EPIC or Windows Store

It'll be interesting to see if Microsoft can bring XBox Live Gold to PC. Game Pass is already there, and all those premium accessories will work with PC. Other possibilities for Microsoft are a hand-held Switch competitor and VR device. You see, it seems to me as though Sony has completely blown their wad, but Microsoft has many, many bullets to fire. So if I were a betting man, I'd bet on Sony short-term, but MS in 5/10 years.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Weren't some of the apu size comparisons going around having ps5 at 250mm? Don't know their source, but if true that'd be significantly cheaper than series x 360mm.

 

[thismeinteil]

I think Sony is going to try to hit $399, again. They don't mind taking a loss on HW, as they always do. And considering it would be a $50-$75 loss, that would probably be 100% acceptable to them. Nowhere near the $200+ they lost on PS3.

MS, on the other hand, have shown this gen that they don't want to lose money on HW. $499 for both machines at launch. I see XSX launching for $499-$549, with MS touting how powerful it is as the reason it is so expensive.

If there is a $100+ price difference, this is when MS will move ahead with Lockhart, pricing it at $299-$349. Of course, an increase of 150% for $50-$100 more is definitely worth choosing the PS5 over the Lockhart. An 18% increase is not worth an extra $100.

 

[Rightisright]

And I’ve officially gotten tired of reading your nonsense.

Oh dear.

 

[bhunachicken]

I think Sony is going to try to hit $399, again.

£399 for a 10TF* machine with 16GB RAM**, a 825GB*** SSD, a Tempest audio engine****, and lashings of PS4***** games? Bargain. I'll buy one over that XSX tower thingy, that I suspect will be expensive as heck, noisy as heck, and have fewer good games as heck.

* - More or less.
** - Not 100% confirmed, as we don't know how hungry the OS is.
*** - Less whatever the OS gobbles up.
**** - Whatever one of those is.
***** - 90% of them, at any rate.

 

[RaySoft]

Only because something is faster/better than something else, it doesnt have to be more expensive.
Sony just customized the SSD for what they need. I/O and custom controller embedded inside the APU.. The nand chips they use are nothing more than regular chips.
The "magic" is done in the controller and I/O. A std. M2 comes with controller and logic to support the nand's, but Sony's solution don't need that since they have it all in the APU.
The PS5 is engineered to bring you the most bang for $399 bucks.

 

[Neo_game]

We even had a thread about it:

PS5 fortunately or unfortunately is not having any special 72mb esram lol. Only custom I/O controller and faster SSD are probably little expensive than Microsoft. Microsoft even mentioned that Xbox have xxx many billion transistors which I am sure is more than PS5 chip and expensive as well. Your 400$ Xbox dream is not going to come true either. lol. I do not think even PS5 will be 400.