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Yoshio Sakamoto and the future of Metroid

Yes. The comparison with Lucas is one I've made myself. When a franchise is at that top tier of acclamation, and its creator comes back and drops a turd of an entry on it, it begs the question of who was responsible for the quality of the earlier entries. Neither games nor movies are one man creations, not even close, and even someone in complete control can have a trusted associate to bounce ideas off of to see if they're good ones. Then, later on, they think they don't need that, and you get an Other M.

Sakamoto was the director of very small teams that made the earlier games. I'm pretty sure he had significant imput. Maybe the question you, and many others, should be asking yourselves, is how much BLAME should Sakamoto get for Other M, when at the time it was one of their biggest, most expensive projects ever, with three different companies working on the game together.
 

Jebusman

Banned
As far as story goes, Metroid works better when you discover it yourself. Metroid Prime did this right. Super Metroid also presented a superb story with a much more subtle way. The problem in OtherM story wasn't only that it was crap, it was also the way it was presented to us. Like a movie.

As for Zero Suit, i think its just an excuse to make Samus another sexy female protagonist for the 15 year old boys.

Which is why I said a focus on story doesn't have to be a problem, but it does have to be done right. You can still have a story driven Metroid game that isn't as "in your face exposition filled" as Other M was.

And looking at the Zero Suit that way is only taking into account it's most recent depictions, rather than how it made sense in Zero Mission.

Running around with nothing but bike shorts and a handgun doesn't make much practical sense compared to what is likely a full body suit designed for dealing with the elements, basic protection, etc. etc.
 

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
Sakamoto needs to be taken off the series, he doesn't understand how to make Metroid anymore. Other M would have been a good game if It weren't for Sakamoto's stupid ideas (like not using the nunchuck/the terrible story).

He is too invested in the Samus character to realise that his 'vision' of her ruined the game.

Also if they are going to keep voice acting and more dense plots for future games, they need to let Treehouse change the script as much as they want. Having a clumsy, exposition-laden Japanese script translated so directly, was severely detrimental to the game.
 

nkarafo

Member
Which is why I said a focus on story doesn't have to be a problem, but it does have to be done right. You can still have a story driven Metroid game that isn't as "in your face exposition filled" as Other M was.
To that i can agree.
 

Mael

Member
Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141625867 said:
I dont know why people keep saying Other M has plot inconsistencies with the other Metroid games. Those were actually explained.
By saying that stuffs that happened is really how Other M portrays it.
Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141625867 said:
Sakamoto also didnt say the Prime games were non-canon.
It's wildly inconsistent, he's the sole writer behind Other M.
By making Other M and Prime incompatible he's basically saying that they're really not cannon.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141625867 said:
People also need to stop calling the more linear Metroid games "not metroid"
There are two kinds of Metroid. PInball Metroid and Action Metroid
There are two types of Action Metroid, more linear-ish DeadSpace feeling Metroid and Super Metroid. The only Metroid game thats NOT Metroid is Prime Hunters. Which is a multiplayer only game as far as Im concerned.
Metroid 1 and Metroid 2 gave birth to two types of Metroid. Other M is the later kind.

Well yeah, Metroid fusion is the later kind and Other M is basically a remake of Metroid Fusion (in the same way that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid 1).


Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141625867 said:
Other M has one major issue in terms of narrative ( which the more unsavory parts can actually be explained via the own games story if you pay attention. People's interpretation of the game is THEIR interpretation. No matter how flawed it may be, they own it. But dont ftry to push it as fact.)

1 Major issue?
And our interpretation of the game's story?
The game leave NO room for any interpretation at all, they made sure of that with the copious amount of cutscenes.
There's no subtlety or anything, everything is to be taken at face value.
Don't piss on our cake and claim it's raining either.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141625867 said:
In general the worst part of Other M is the complete lack of exploration. Which was replaced with "Find the pixel while you hunt". Despite being linear-ish Metroid 2 and Fusion have exploration in them. The second worst part of Other M is the fact the game has no map. If it had that and more sequence breaking it'd be

Oh no.
The worst part is certainly the fact that it put Metroid in the limbo state it is where we don't even know what's coming next since it was so unpopular.
After that it would be a mix between the controls, lack of exploration, music, story and a bunch of other things.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141625867 said:
Agile Samus is Best Samus. If Retro ever makes another Metroid game, I implore you, leave Tank Samus behind.

Tank Samus is a limitation of the GC controller anyway where 1 analog stick was barely usable so it was unreliable to have camera controlled by it.
It's still miles ahead of the horrible thing we got in Other M.
Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141625867 said:
And get better model designers, she looks like an ugly blonde American in all the Prime Games. Other M samus isnt that great either.

Who cares? In Metroid you spend most of your time in a suit anyway.
The suit is the thing that should get the attention to details, they shat the bag with the current design but at least Samus is more feminine now!

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141625867 said:
Metroid Other M tried to do something no game has ever done before. It seems that Itagaki's Devils Third will carry on that mantle of merging first person shooting and 3rd person action in a seamless fashion.
?
Did I miss all the other 3D games that successfully did just that?
Making character action games in 3D isn't rocket science or the philosopher stone.
We were probably closer to having a 3D action platformer with Mario Sunshine than we ever were with the unwieldy 'let's base our 3D action game on a NES controller' idiocy.
 
As far as story goes, Metroid works better when you discover it yourself. Metroid Prime did this right. Super Metroid also presented a superb story with a much more subtle way. The problem in OtherM story wasn't only that it was crap, it was also the way it was presented to us. Like a movie.

As for Zero Suit, i think its just an excuse to make Samus another sexy female protagonist for the 15 year old boys.

The Zero Suit is a pressurized body suit to protect the body. Scuba Divers and Astronauts wear them. Samus didnt need it to be "sexy" she was wearing combat underwear in the first game we played.

We only see it for all of 10 minutes in Zero Mission. The only reason people know about it is Smash Bros
 

Mael

Member
I would think the best route would be a traditional Prime for console, and a traditional Metroid for hand held.

That's what we got when Prime was the risky project.
2 concurrent Metroid games, that way if one failed the other could still be there to ensure something would be coming.

How I hoped we would have gotten that for Other M...
 

Jebusman

Banned
I still don't get why they didn't stick more closely to the manga for it's adaption of the backstory.

Hell, it would still be a great thing to use. The tutorial section could be her training to use the power suit under the guidance of Old Bird.

Edit: I now realized my dream Metroid game involves a piece by piece adaption of the manga for the first half of the game, then a remade/reimagined full 3D Metroid 1 remake for the second half.
 

nkarafo

Member
I don't want Sakamoto near Metroid anymore. The guy has lost it. OtherM was a travesty. Retro has to handle the franchise from now on.
 

Dimmle

Member
I loved Other M. Really enjoyed the game.

image.php
 
By saying that stuffs that happened is really how Other M portrays it.

It's wildly inconsistent, he's the sole writer behind Other M.
By making Other M and Prime incompatible he's basically saying that they're really not cannon.



Well yeah, Metroid fusion is the later kind and Other M is basically a remake of Metroid Fusion (in the same way that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid 1).




1 Major issue?
And our interpretation of the game's story?
The game leave NO room for any interpretation at all, they made sure of that with the copious amount of cutscenes.
There's no subtlety or anything, everything is to be taken at face value.
Don't piss on our cake and claim it's raining either.



Oh no.
The worst part is certainly the fact that it put Metroid in the limbo state it is where we don't even know what's coming next since it was so unpopular.
After that it would be a mix between the controls, lack of exploration, music, story and a bunch of other things.



Tank Samus is a limitation of the GC controller anyway where 1 analog stick was barely usable so it was unreliable to have camera controlled by it.
It's still miles ahead of the horrible thing we got in Other M.


Who cares? In Metroid you spend most of your time in a suit anyway.
The suit is the thing that should get the attention to details, they shat the bag with the current design but at least Samus is more feminine now!


?
Did I miss all the other 3D games that successfully did just that?
Making character action games in 3D isn't rocket science or the philosopher stone.
We were probably closer to having a 3D action platformer with Mario Sunshine than we ever were with the unwieldy 'let's base our 3D action game on a NES controller' idiocy.

But thats my point. Other M doesnt contradict Prime at all. Yeah its presented quite poorly and ameteurish, but the story isnt contradictory at all. You do realize that Movies themselves can be interpreted in MANY different ways right?

People tend to have selective memory when playing Other M and they continue to regurgitate about how its inconsistent because of one person's interpretation, who unfortunately didnt pay attention to the details.

Metroid Other M has first person combat but 3rd person movement and melee combat. That's what I meant. Devil's Third is trying to take that style and add a sense of heightened mobility to that. Like a Ninja.

The only other game that does that is Kid Icarus uprising ( when you go in first person mode)
 

Mael

Member
I still don't get why they didn't stick more closely to the manga for it's adaption of the backstory.

Hell, it would still be a great thing to use. The tutorial section could be her training to use the power suit under the guidance of Old Bird.

That's was actually for the best (because to begin with the manga isn't very good at all), most of the world don't even know of its existence so making it a prerequisite would be...unwise.
On top of that the game's narrative was already a mess, no need to complicate it further.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141629920 said:
But thats my point. Other M doesnt contradict Prime at all. Yeah its presented quite poorly and ameteurish, but the story isnt contradictory at all. You do realize that Movies themselves can be interpreted in MANY different ways right?

Yes it does.
When Samus says that Other M is the 1rst time she did a joint mission with the GF it's in total contradiction with Metroid Prime 3 where you play a joint mission with the GF.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141629920 said:
People tend to have selective memory when playing Other M and they continue to regurgitate about how its inconsistent because of one person's interpretation, who unfortunately didnt pay attention to the details.

I didn't say it was internally consistent (although it woudl certainly not surprise me....and that sequence for Sector Zero points to the other way).
It's inconsistent with the rest of the franchise.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141629920 said:
Metroid Other M has first person combat but 3rd person movement and melee combat. That's what I meant. Devil's Third is trying to take that style and add a sense of heightened mobility to that. Like a Ninja.

Other M had 1rst person SHOOTING with 3rd person movement....and barely melee combat (there's nothing outside finishing move, so yeah).
And if Devil's Third is trying to do what Other M was doing control wise...it's going to be shit.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141629920 said:
The only other game that does that is Kid Icarus uprising ( when you go in first person mode)
I'm lost, in what way is KI:U anything but a classic 3rd person shooter?
You control the aiming, at times when the camera is too close to the character, the character disappear but it never goes in 1rst person view.
 

KingJ2002

Member
Nintendo should just make a traditional Metroid Game that can be played in the 1st or 3rd person... similar to what rockstar did with Grand Theft Auto.
 
I don't want Sakamoto near Metroid anymore. The guy has lost it. OtherM was a travesty. Retro has to handle the franchise from now on.

Dooming Retro to Metroid is a travesty.

Let them do their own thing. Lets leave Metroid in Miyamoto's hands.

I hope Next Level games gets to do a horror game next. They're really good at it.

Well that's just uncalled for.

You cant fix bad genes. There's crap in your food. Stop eating corn and engorged meat from dairy cows.
 
Nintendo should just make a traditional Metroid Game that can be played in the 1st or 3rd person... similar to what rockstar did with Grand Theft Auto.

Nah that'd be a mess design wise. If anything they should get the Endless Ocean guys at Arika to make a Metroid game with Itagaki handling the combat.
 

nkarafo

Member
Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141630565 said:
Lets leave Metroid in Miyamoto's hands.
I trust Miyamoto.

Sakamoto, not anymore. He just want's to create his wifu. And be the next big story teller, maybe he is jelly of Kojima. And make a hollywood movie.
 

Shikamaru Ninja

任天堂 の 忍者
Sakamoto needs to be taken off the series, he doesn't understand how to make Metroid anymore. Other M would have been a good game if It weren't for Sakamoto's stupid ideas (like not using the nunchuck/the terrible story).

That's just not fair and rather crude. The whole point of Metroid: Other M, was Sakamoto wanted to make a high technology side-scrolling classic Metroid game. The impetus behind this, was the the Wii brought a resurgence to cross-pad games that were reaching expanded audiences and selling boatloads thanks to their simplified familiar controls.

Hayashi and Sakamoto's "compromise" is an exact mirroring of how the execution between the companies involved failed the project. Hayashi wanted the game to control in a 3D space instead. The two settled on 3D control with a classic grip. If they were going to do nunchuk controls, they might as well be making Prime 4, and they already lose the original target audience in Japan that Sakamoto was pandering.

It was a lose lose situation.
 

nkarafo

Member
Sakamoto also said in one of his interviews that he made OtherM more accessible for the casual gamers.

I just don't want this guy near Metroid anymore.
 

Mael

Member
Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141630565 said:
You cant fix bad genes. There's crap in your food. Stop eating corn and engorged meat from dairy cows.

You haven't seen an American outside your TV, have you?
 
The day Other M was announced was the day I decided to buy a Wii. Thankfully I bought Metroid Prime Trilogy to warm up to it, because in the end, I hated Other M and absolutely loved Metroid Prime Trilogy.

I know Samus characterization is the worst part of Other M, but I didn't like the gameplay either. The action was too slow and boring, and I found the whole first-person view that forced you to stop moving in order to fire missiles to be one of the worst ideas ever seen in a video game. It still puzzles me how this idea survived the development stages and made it into the final game.

I'm very open-minded about the next Metroid. I would love to see a third-person 3D Metroid game. I've been playing Darksiders 2 lately, and while I'm finding the game only OK, it constantly makes me wonder how wonderful it could be if it were a Metroid game.

After three excellent Metroid Prime games, I'm a bit tired of the FPS stuff, but I would still be very excited about it. A 2,5D Metroid game could also turn out great, considering how good Retro has proven to be with 2,5D DKCR games. I would even welcome a game with Other M style, as long as the action is actually good.

The only thing I'm not excited about is seeing Sakamoto at the helm. I love Super Metroid, but I don't like the way he treats storytelling. I even disliked Fusion, which most of you like, because it was so story-driven and linear.
 

Jebusman

Banned
That's was actually for the best (because to begin with the manga isn't very good at all), most of the world don't even know of its existence so making it a prerequisite would be...unwise.
On top of that the game's narrative was already a mess, no need to complicate it further.

I would say that the best part of that manga is giving a clear and concise backstory to Samus herself, along with the Chozo race. It falls apart a bit as it goes on, but I think it makes a better intro and backstory than Other M managed to piece together: "I'm a rebel, oh please notice me Adam-senpai".
 

Jezan

Member
Metroid: Other M can best be described as a disappointing polarizing game that resulted from a clumsy development process. Some great ideas, and some bad ideas. Mostly bad execution by the four entities involved (Nintendo SPD | English Localization Team | Team Ninja | D-Rockets). It's a mediocre game that is equally victim of internet hyperbole . Nothing is okay.. it's either the best or the worst ever.

I would think the best route would be a traditional Prime for console, and a traditional Metroid for hand held.
English locallization team? Why them?
 

Toxi

Banned
If they were going to do nunchuk controls, they might as well be making Prime 4, and they already lose the original target audience in Japan that Sakamoto was pandering.
Why would analog control make it Prime 4? There are plenty of other Wii games with analog control.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141630565 said:
You cant fix bad genes. There's crap in your food. Stop eating corn and engorged meat from dairy cows.
wat
 
The faults of Other M's English localization were the faults of Sakamoto, considering he pressured them to keep it as close to his original ideas as possible, including snuffing out any attempts to use better wording for "The Baby" and called for Samus's English voice to be the monotone it was.

Fun fact, he was also responsible for the game's horrid "soundtrack" when he told the composer to make something like a modern film soundtrack when earlier attempts apparently sounded more like Metroid. He also genuinely asked the team, "Why is Samus purple?" and came up with the terrible pink glow Gravity "Suit."

"Why is Samus purple." This is from the guy who made Super Metroid.
 

Marow

Member
I should really play Other M soon enough. Besides Metroid II, it's the only game in the series I haven't played. It would be interesting to experience it and form my own opinion about it. It definitely seems iffy, but it would still be interesting to see what Sakamoto's vision is like.

Now, the question is whether or not it will look terrible on an HDTV, but that's another problem entirely.
 

Jebusman

Banned
English locallization team? Why them?

The localization was bad. And the voice actor for Samus phoned in her performance hard. Either that or Sakamoto thought that a character doesn't need more than a single tone of voice. I don't blame her given what she had to work with thanks to the localization, but it was a bad problem making a worse problem.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141630565 said:
You cant fix bad genes. There's crap in your food. Stop eating corn and engorged meat from dairy cows.

Lol wut.

Next you're going to tell me it's all the milk and estrogen or something.
 

Mael

Member
That's just not fair and rather crude. The whole point of Metroid: Other M, was Sakamoto wanted to make a high technology side-scrolling classic Metroid game. The impetus behind this, was the the Wii brought a resurgence to cross-pad games that were reaching expanded audiences and selling boatloads thanks to their simplified familiar controls.

There's some fundamental misunderstanding of the Wii between Japan and the rest of the world it seems.
The Expanded audience was never going to be interested in something like Metroid, not even Mario Galaxy managed to reach the audience of NSMB games!

Hayashi and Sakamoto's "compromise" is an exact mirroring of how the execution between the companies involved failed the project. Hayashi wanted the game to control in a 3D space instead. The two settled on 3D control with a classic grip. If they were going to do nunchuk controls, they might as well be making Prime 4, and they already lose the original target audience in Japan that Sakamoto was pandering.

The thing is the game was a single player game to begin, EVERY single Wii owners had a nunchuck (that's why it was packed in).
The expended audience could have made sense of the Wii+nunchuck and the part of the audience that wouldn't would never have wanted to play (let alone buy) somethng like Metroid.

It was a lose lose situation.
Well one could argue we ended with the worst of both world...
 
Why would analog control make it Prime 4?


wat

Well the other games had it? But you dont really need it.



There's a reason Zuckerberg grows his own food and kills his meat. Most of the stuff you get in a supermarket is compromised somehow. Our way of living has ruined the potency of the world's soil. Moringa Olefiena can still tap into the soil and get the most nutrients out of it. They use it to fight malnutrition in Africa. It can grow in the sandiest of soils.
 

Mael

Member
Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141631399 said:
You are what you eat.

Pay attention to your surrounding the next time you go to Dollywood and you'll see what I mean.

You mean the people I see at work, at the gym or at Walmart?
I'd say if you can't find attractive people in America, you're not looking at all.
Seriously it's more than 300 million people we're talking here.

I would say that the best part of that manga is giving a clear and concise backstory to Samus herself, along with the Chozo race. It falls apart a bit as it goes on, but I think it makes a better intro and backstory than Other M managed to piece together: "I'm a rebel, oh please notice me Adam-senpai".

Ok actually I agree here.

The voice actor for Samus phoned in her performance hard. Either that or Sakamoto thought that a character doesn't need more than a single tone of voice. I don't blame her given what she had to work with thanks to the localization, but it was a bad problem making a worse problem.
Last I heard she had Sakamoto breathing down her neck the whole time to make sure she did everything the way he wanted :/.
Can't really blame her there.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141632803 said:
Well the other games had it? But you dont really need it.

You have analog control in Mario Galaxy and digital in 3D World, is 3D World actually closer to NSMB or something while I wasn't looking?
 

Toxi

Banned
Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141632803 said:
Well the other games had it? But you dont really need it.
It's a 3D action game. Generally, 3D action games use analog control for extra precision and freedom of movement.

Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141632803 said:
There's a reason Zuckerberg grows his own food and kills his meat. Most of the stuff you get in a supermarket is compromised somehow. Our way of living has ruined the potency of the world's soil. Moringa Olefiena can still tap into the soil and get the most nutrients out of it. They use it to fight malnutrition in Africa. It can grow in the sandiest of soils.
wat
 

Jebusman

Banned
Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141632803 said:
There's a reason Zuckerberg grows his own food and kills his meat. Most of the stuff you get in a supermarket is compromised somehow. Our way of living has ruined the potency of the world's soil. Moringa Olefiena can still tap into the soil and get the most nutrients out of it. They use it to fight malnutrition in Africa. It can grow in the sandiest of soils.

There is a time and a place for this discussion.

It is not here.
 
Indeed. Metroid 2 is great.

I like to replay all the metroid games in chronological order via the timeline.

You should all watch the Gametrailers retrospective on the series

http://www.gametrailers.com/full-ep...es-metroid-retrospective--complete-collection

I love the series. So I'd hate a reboot.

I need to know what happens after fusion like I need to know what happens after Zelda 2.

Its time for Ganondorf to die and for Demise to infect someone else.

There is a time and a place for this discussion.

It is not here.

I know. There's no need for everyone to ask the same question about my opinion on ugly blonde gonks.


ANYWAY. Sakamoto himself said he was done with Metroid so you all can rest easy. He's too busy with Rythym Tengoku and Tomodachi Life. His team was recently shuffled around. I hear he is working on a secret new project over at SPD.
 
Edit: Guys, I know that he did Super Metroid too. If he tried to make a new 2D game with a minimalistic story then I'd be all for it.

I think this is a very real possibility. I completely agree with OP, I mostly enjoyed Other M, although it was bad compared to other Metroid games, and if you care about the overall canon (which I definitely do not). I really don't think Sakamoto should be punished for his worst output when we all know what he is capable of at his best. He's also an important figure inside Nintendo, and has been heavily involved with successful series like Wario Ware and Tomodachi Life, so I don't think he's going anywhere. He was recently promoted to SPD in 2013.
 

NotLiquid

Member
Yatōkiri_Kilgharrah;141625867 said:
And get better model designers, she looks like an ugly blonde American in all the Prime Games.

This might be hard for some to swallow but you do realize that the original iteration of unmasked Samus in Prime is the closest, most accurate depiction of the original Samus that was based off of the Super Metroid player guide, right? She's supposed to be a well built, athletic person.

I can't really complain about the modern look of Samus because I much prefer that kind of art design but the original Prime kept it pretty close to what Samus was originally supposed to look like.

And even so, Prime 3 changed it up to the Zero Suit everyone prefers so clearly Retro already did something there.
 

Marow

Member
You should rather play Metroid 2.
Yeah! It looks really special. I'm a bit scared by the lack of color (on 3DS) and map, though. Been hoping for some sort of remake one day, but I guess it'll never happen. Hopefully it won't be too confusing to navigate.
 

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
That's just not fair and rather crude. The whole point of Metroid: Other M, was Sakamoto wanted to make a high technology side-scrolling classic Metroid game. The impetus behind this, was the the Wii brought a resurgence to cross-pad games that were reaching expanded audiences and selling boatloads thanks to their simplified familiar controls.

Hayashi and Sakamoto's "compromise" is an exact mirroring of how the execution between the companies involved failed the project. Hayashi wanted the game to control in a 3D space instead. The two settled on 3D control with a classic grip. If they were going to do nunchuk controls, they might as well be making Prime 4, and they already lose the original target audience in Japan that Sakamoto was pandering.

It was a lose lose situation.

Even with the messy controls, the structure of the game was still poor. Extremely linear and with very limited scope to explore. As a game director Sakamoto completely failed, the characterisation of Samus is all wrong, the game is clunky and basic and is exactly what I would expect from Sakamoto on a modern console. The signs were all there with Fusion, except the GBA tech reigned in his more George Lucas-ish tendencies.

He should stick to WarioWare, Tomodachi and Rhythm Heaven, I don't think he understands why people despite Other M (which was still an average game, just a terrible Metroid).

The faults of Other M's English localization were the faults of Sakamoto, considering he pressured them to keep it as close to his original ideas as possible, including snuffing out any attempts to use better wording for "The Baby" and called for Samus's English voice to be the monotone it was.

The voice was absolutely fine, it's just Samus had far too much dialogue, most of which was terrible. Those monologues were absolutely terrible and the whole script was just too Japanese. It's pretty much exactly the situation with George Lucas and Star Wars, he created it but he doesn't understand what made the old ones good.
 
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