Support NeoGAF

[border]

"My massive failure was offset by some other success!"

Because that's what coprorations absolutely love - seeing profits eaten away by frivolous vanity projects with marginal appeal.

Of course the lackluster sales of Shenmue resulted in executives keeping tigheter reins on Suzuki.

 

[Krejlooc]

Thanks for allowing Shenmue to tarnish Virtua Fighter Yu. Good work.

"My massive failure was offset by some other success!"

Because that's what coprorations absolutely love - seeing profits are eaten up by frivolous vanity projects with marginal appeal.

"My massive failure that begat my massive success was offset by my massive success that owes its conception to my massive failure!"

Also: LOL repeating the line that Shenmue was a "massive failure."

Of course the lackluster sales of Shenmue resulted in executives keeping tigheter reins on Suzuki.

Shenmue sold over 1 million copies.

 

[sörine]

That did beat out the Genesis version, didn't it? 4 is the first one then where all of the home console releases were good.

That's insane, Saturn VF2 was a marvel in it's day and somehow looked better than anything on PS1 at the time too. It was probably the most logic defyingly good port we've seen in the series considering how much of a mess Saturn's architecture was.

I'll give you that VF1 was a crap port, and VF3 on DC was so much less that it should've been, but VF2 was unquestionably a great port.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

People love to talk shit about the Genesis port of Virtua Fighter 2... but it's actually pretty good if you play it, you know, like an actual Virtua Fighter game.

Same with Virtua Fighter Animation, actually. Although that's way, way less extensive.

Don't allow nostalgia to cloud you TOO much. I have Virtua Fighter on Megadrive. It's good for what it is. That's probably as complimentary as you can be.

 

[Krejlooc]

Don't allow nostalgia to cloud you TOO much. I have Virtua Fighter on Megadrive. It's good for what it is. That's probably as complimentary as you can be.

I played the game like last week.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I played the game like last week.

Yeah and like I said, it's good for what it is. A port on a console that has no right to have a port of Virtua Fighter on it. So in that context, yeah, it's good.

 

[Spaghetti]

"My massive failure was offset by some other success!"

Because that's what coprorations absolutely love - seeing profits are eaten away by frivolous vanity projects with marginal appeal.

Of course the lackluster sales of Shenmue resulted in executives keeping tigheter reins on Suzuki.

1 million+ sales on an unpopular console isn't what i'd call lacklustre

 

[R10Neymarfan]

Alright then Shenmue 1 & 2 HD for PC/PS4 plus VF5 port to PC to pay for Shenmue 3 further then

 

[Krejlooc]

Alright then Shenmue 1 & 2 HD for PC/PS4 plus VF5 port to PC to pay for Shenmue 3 further then

I have a feeling that, when Sega ever does announce Shenmue 1 and 2 HD, it'll be an extremely tricky situation for them. Undoubtedly it'll look like a poor cash grab, which will seem even poorer when you consider that this is a cash grab that they've turned their back to for the last 14 years. And I doubt with every fiber of my being that any money that an HD port makes would ever go to YS.net for Shenmue 3's development.

Shame on Sega for how they treated Yu Suzuki and Shenmue.

 

[Oblivion]

I call shenanigans. Didn't Shenmue cost like five hundred times more than any of those games?

Seems like he's trying to make the case that it won't be such a risk for Shenmue 3.

 

[border]

Also: LOL repeating the line that Shenmue was a "massive failure."

Shenmue sold over 1 million copies.

If the game is such a success then why are we now deducting profits from Virtua Fighter's balance sheet to write off Shenmue's development costs? Shouldn't a successful game be one that is self-sustaining?

 

[TemplaerDude]

This thread confuses me. What point are you trying to make?

 

[Krejlooc]

I call shenanigans. Didn't Shenmue cost like five hundred times more than any of those games?

Shenmue 1 and 2, plus 2 saturn versions, cost $47 million to make. You really don't think Sega's amusement division, which was historically their profit maker, could cover that cost? Really? Arcade games during those time brought in crazy amounts of money.

Seems like he's trying to make the case that it won't be such a risk for Shenmue 3.

...that makes no sense. He doesn't have Virtua Fighter to fall back on anymore, and he made these comments before people knew Shenmue III was even coming.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I have a feeling that, when Sega ever does announce Shenmue 1 and 2 HD, it'll be an extremely tricky situation for them. Undoubtedly it'll look like a poor cash grab, which will seem even poorer when you consider that this is a cash grab that they've turned their back to for the last 14 years. And I doubt with every fiber of my being that any money that an HD port makes would ever go to YS.net for Shenmue 3's development.

Shame on Sega for how they treated Yu Suzuki and Shenmue.

Shame on Sega for how they've treated the majority of their IPs. Growing up as a genuine immature Sega fanboy, there'll forever be this hollowness inside me because of Sega. When I was younger I always blamed external factors on Sega's failures because I was too young and too immature to really see and understand what was really happening.

As I've gotten older and realised that is was all 99% Sega's own fault, it's kinda soul destroying.

 

[Krejlooc]

If the game is such a success then why are we now deducting profits from Virtua Fighter's balance sheet to write off Shenmue's development costs?

Because:

Most of Shenmues budget went to the creation of tools and engines that Sega would have used in the future. Shenmue's budget was basically Sega building a foundation for future games that never got used.

In that instance, Shenmue was supposed to be a loss to make money in the future.

But people concentrate on Shenmue, claming it's the reason Sega went under. Like Shenmue killed Sega, essentially. That clearly isn't the case, when the guy behind Shenmue had other enormous profit earning projects.

And because Shenmue and Virtua Fighter are intrinsically linked. Both games were conceptualized at the same time. Shenmue and Virtua Fighter are like sister series.

 

[Aki-at]

Even if Shenmue cost 10 times as much for SEGA, between Virtua Fighter 1, 2, Outrun, Space Harrier and Afterburner (Amongst others) Suzuki still provided more money than he lost for SEGA. Keep in mind aswell SEGA's arcade dominance was a reason the console losses didn't hurt the company even more and Suzuki was largely responsible for that.

 

[Krejlooc]

Even if Shenmue cost 10 times as much for SEGA, between Virtua Fighter 1, 2, Outrun, Space Harrier and Afterburner (Amongst others) Suzuki still provided more money than he lost for SEGA. Keep in mind aswell SEGA's arcade dominance was a reason the console losses didn't hurt the company even more and Suzuki was largely responsible for that.

Yu Suzuki was responsible for Sega's highest profit earner ever, and the most profitable arcade game of all time: Daytona USA.

 

[EricB]

I have a feeling that, when Sega ever does announce Shenmue 1 and 2 HD, it'll be an extremely tricky situation for them. Undoubtedly it'll look like a poor cash grab, which will seem even poorer when you consider that this is a cash grab that they've turned their back to for the last 14 years. And I doubt with every fiber of my being that any money that an HD port makes would ever go to YS.net for Shenmue 3's development.

Shame on Sega for how they treated Yu Suzuki and Shenmue.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret: everything that any company has done ever is a "cash grab." That is kind of the point of operating a business. The only thing that matters is how said company handles public relations so as to minimize the nerd rage that might result by perceived slights in the handling of sacred material (see Mighty No. 9 for an example of how not to do this).

As for profits going to YS.net; of course that wouldn't happen for the same reason as above. SEGA is not operating a charity and if they wanted to fund Shenmue III then they would have funded Shenmue III.

 

[Krejlooc]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret: everything that any company has done ever is a "cash grab."

This isn't remotely true, and I'm the CEO of a corporation. There are projects you purposely lose money on for other benefits.

 

[EricB]

This isn't remotely true, and I'm the CEO of a corporation. There are projects you purposely lose money on for other benefits.

Benefits which undoubtedly lead to additional profits in the future. Of course, I'm sure there are exceptions but to say that it isn't remotely true is ridiculous.

 

[_Ryo_]

"My massive failure was offset by some other success!"

Because that's what coprorations absolutely love - seeing profits eaten away by frivolous vanity projects with marginal appeal.

Of course the lackluster sales of Shenmue resulted in executives keeping tigheter reins on Suzuki.

Why do people keep saying this? Shenmue sold really well. Over a million copies, I believe.

 

[Krejlooc]

Benefits which undoubtedly lead to additional profits

Which makes them NOT a cash grab, but a mind-share earner.

 

[Surta]

Why do people keep saying this? Shenmue sold really well. Over a million copies, I believe.

Yes, at least 1.2 million. And that Shenmue 2 didn't sell as well was due to the Dreamcast's demise and questionable business decisions (not releasing Shenmue 2 for Dreamcast in the US).

 

[Gestault]

This isn't remotely true, and I'm the CEO of a corporation. There are projects you purposely lose money on for other benefits.

Absolutely. It's the whole concept behind investments. And if you can make a product out of an R&D process that already needs to happen, all the better.

 

[Some Nobody]

Sega just did a song and dance about actually "trying" on console again. Verendus said VF6 was happening. Seeing this I had to connect those dots. I was never a big VF fan but I'm tired of 2.5/2D fighters so let's get some variety.

 

[_Ryo_]

Yes, at least 1.2 million. And that Shenmue 2 didn't sell as well was due to the Dreamcast's demise and questionable business decisions (not releasing Shenmue 2 for Dreamcast in the US).

Peter Moore still receives my ire. Releasing SII on OG Xbox with no Shenmue 1 port and only that awful Shenmue the movie shit. ugh.

His donation to S3 doesn't really make it sting any less.

 

[EricB]

Which makes them NOT a cash grab, but a mind-share earner.

We're arguing semantics here so I'll concede.

I still think SEGA has an opportunity to sneak out HD versions and ride on the good vibes created by the announcement of Shenmue III. However, I do agree that they have a very limited window. Given recent decisions made by SEGA, I doubt they have the business acumen to feel out the proper timing.

 

[Oblivion]

Shenmue 1 and 2, plus 2 saturn versions, cost $47 million to make. You really don't think Sega's amusement division, which was historically their profit maker, could cover that cost? Really? Arcade games during those time brought in crazy amounts of money.

1) How much of that $47 mil is in 2015 dollars?
2) Wait, where are you getting that $47 million figure from? I've always heard Shenmue 1 alone was at least $70 million.

 

[indigo-cyclops]

Nobody plays Virtua Fighter doe.

On a serious note, that was then, this is now, a new VF game making a good buck back for SEGA is unknown at this point.
Tekken and the upcoming Pokken are more than likely to be bigger highlights in the arcade fighting scene in Japan.

Then again we are getting a new BB game, so wtf yeah maybe a new VF could do bring in a good profit for SEGA, but looking at the current market...

They should pull a DoA Last Round with VF and watch the moola roll in.

The quote is meant to show that even tho Shenmue cost SEGA a lot over it's development it managed to get it back. Alas, game development. Especially when doing something as groundbreaking as Shenmue.

 

[Krejlooc]

1) How much of that $47 mil is in 2015 dollars?

About $59 million. Daytona USA alone brought in over $150 million in profit over its lifetime.

2) Wait, where are you getting that $47 million figure from? I've always heard Shenmue 1 alone was at least $70 million.

From Yu Suzuki himself at GDC 2011.

 

[TheSpoiler]

If VF wants to be successful worldwide, it's going to need some work.

- A very detailed tutorial mode. Talkin' VF4 EVO level as a starting point. The better it is, the more people will stick with a game that looks daunting, but really isn't.

- A console release not staggered so far from the arcade release. That was stupid.

- Sega has to put in work trying to promote the game worldwide. Pools, incentives, whatever. Capcom does it.

- A huge training mode. Allow people to account for most variables.

It could work, it just needs some time and effort.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Yu should kickstart virtua fighter 6 to recoup the shenmue 3 budget

 

[MikeMyers]

What SHOULD happen, if we lived in a just world, is that Namco and Tecmo would cross over with Sega, and we'd get Fighters Megamix 2 - Virtua Fighter vs Tekken vs Dead or Alive.

We don't live in a just world, unfortunately.

Also, outrun 3. And Daytona USA 3.

I'd be down for just VF vs DOA. Throw in the guy from Shinobi to be be a rival to Ninja Gaiden.

 

[entremet]

I think people are looking through console only glasses.

Arcades are/were super profitable for SEGA.

 

[Krejlooc]

Throw in the guy from Shinobi to be be a rival to Ninja Gaiden.

1988 me is crying. Joe Musashi. Ryu Hayabusa.

 

[Aki-at]

Yu Suzuki was responsible for Sega's highest profit earner ever, and the most profitable arcade game of all time: Daytona USA.

I don't think he was directly involved in development, just happened to be producer because he was the head of AM2. But he did greenlit the project, furthermore, both the head of SEGA's consumer division and arcade division were guys who worked under him. If nothing else, he helped nurture key talents for the company, his legacy is a lot more than just some games but the people he parted his experience to.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

If the game is such a success then why are we now deducting profits from Virtua Fighter's balance sheet to write off Shenmue's development costs? Shouldn't a successful game be one that is self-sustaining?

Because the Dreamcast only sold ten million consoles. There was no way for Shenmue to make a profit unless it had like a 75% attach rate. A game that was not a pack-in (ok, they had a Shenmue pack-in in japan but it's extremely rare) selling a million copies when only 10 million systems existed is not bad at all. The problem is that Sega dropped the ball when it came to selling consoles.

 

[MikeMyers]

1988 me is crying. Joe Musashi. Ryu Hayabusa.

I always wondered did AM2 actually help work on DOA5 or did they just give Team Ninja approval to use VF characters?

 

[Eolz]

What SHOULD happen, if we lived in a just world, is that Namco and Tecmo would cross over with Sega, and we'd get Fighters Megamix 2 - Virtua Fighter vs Tekken vs Dead or Alive.

Err... No thanks.

Then how about making a Virtua Fighter 6 to recoup the losses on a Shenmue 1 & 2 HD collection?

Now I can get behind this!

Sega just did a song and dance about actually "trying" on console again. Verendus said VF6 was happening. Seeing this I had to connect those dots. I was never a big VF fan but I'm tired of 2.5/2D fighters so let's get some variety.

Yep, was going to talk about this Verendus rumor and Sega's recent statements too. There has been a recent popularity surge for fighting games again too, so it'd make sense to capitalize on this.

If VF wants to be successful worldwide, it's going to need some work.

- A very detailed tutorial mode. Talkin' VF4 EVO level as a starting point. The better it is, the more people will stick with a game that looks daunting, but really isn't.

- A console release not staggered so far from the arcade release. That was stupid.

- Sega has to put in work trying to promote the game worldwide. Pools, incentives, whatever. Capcom does it.

- A huge training mode. Allow people to account for most variables.

It could work, it just needs some time and effort.

No.
See, I agree on your points, I just don't agree on the fact that this would suddenly make VF successful worldwide. This is a game that is recognized for being deeper and more difficult than your typical 3D fighter (in fact DOA is probably the closest thing in terms of systems, while being obviously more accessible).
Changing the focus/systems of VF would make it lose its fanbase, and making it more accessible wouldn't make it more successful as well, since the fighting game market is a bit more crowded than before, still sells copies mostly depending on fanbases, and it isn't a "huge" name anymore. Would a random guy see "Virtua Fighter 6" in stores and digitally, based on reputation and promises alone? I think not.


edit:

I always wondered did AM2 actually help work on DOA5 or did they just give Team Ninja approval to use VF characters?

http://venturebeat.com/2014/11/16/b...aking-in-dead-or-alive-5-last-round-part-2/2/ first question of the page, interview from 2014. They helped.

 

[Krejlooc]

I don't think he was directly involved in development, just happened to be producer because he was the head of AM2. But he did greenlit the project, furthermore, both the head of SEGA's consumer division and arcade division were guys who worked under him. If nothing else, he helped nurture key talents for the company, his legacy is a lot more than just some games but the people he parted his experience to.

He definitely was involved in at least some part of Daytona USA's development - it was Sega's first texture mapped 3D game using Lockheed's technology that Yu Suzuki himself worked on. In fact, that's likely why he didn't direct Daytona USA in the first place - he was busy in 1993 designing the Model 2 board's texture mapping units, which were developed in tandem with Daytona USA.

He was also busy in 1993 developing this little idea that would eventually become this thing we know as shenmue...

 

[Saikyo]

Seems like he's trying to make the case that it won't be such a risk for Shenmue 3.

...except it was news from January, way before the kickstarter announcement.

 

[MikeMyers]

http://venturebeat.com/2014/11/16/b...aking-in-dead-or-alive-5-last-round-part-2/2/ first question of the page, interview from 2014. They helped.

Thanks. Checking out this interview now.

 

[lupinko]

I don't think he was directly involved in development, just happened to be producer because he was the head of AM2. But he did greenlit the project, furthermore, both the head of SEGA's consumer division and arcade division were guys who worked under him. If nothing else, he helped nurture key talents for the company, his legacy is a lot more than just some games but the people he parted his experience to.

Yes, because Daytona USA was actually Nagoshi's game.

Also Yu Suzuki's last run on VF was with 4FT.

He had nothing to do with 5 and its title updates.

Sega for fighting games at the moment is content with Frenchbread's anime fighters and Arc System Works' Guilty Gear (AC+R and Xrd) to help drive their current Nesica-like arcade download service. DOA5 is on the same service.

I mentioned this in the tekken thread, but VF has historically been a graphical showpiece for new Sega hardware. But with the current trends in download services (the modern take on SNK's MVS), and the configurations of Sega's current Ringedge line of arcade boards. It's a bit of a head scratcher right now where VF6 fits in. Also the last update announced was another revision of Final Showdown in arcades, which was awhile back.

For fighting games, unless you are Bamco, those no longer get anymore dedicated hardware and cabinets.

 

[Spaghetti]

If the game is such a success then why are we now deducting profits from Virtua Fighter's balance sheet to write off Shenmue's development costs? Shouldn't a successful game be one that is self-sustaining?

see my post about shenmue being an investment in a series rather than on a game by game basis. shenmue may eventually have been a profitable venture if the legs weren't cut out from under it when sega pulled the plug on the dreamcast and relegated the north american version to the xbox. shenmue's problem was never outright sales, it was simply the consoles it found itself on.

also, vf and shenmue shared a lot of technology in terms of motion capture assets. shenmue's conception even started when yu suzuki took a research trip to china for vf. both series are joined at the hip in a lot of ways. it's not unreasonable for sega to be fine taking some profit away from its arcade megahit to finance something more interesting and ambitious for consoles.

 

[Krejlooc]

but VF has historically been a graphical showpiece for new Sega hardware

Maybe for VF3, but most of the hardware VF ran on typically was shown off with other games primarily. Model 1's showcase was Virtua Racing. Model 2's showcase was Daytona USA. The Naomi 2 wasn't really a new board, it was an upgrade to the Naomi, which itself was an upgrade to the dreamcast. The Lindbergh was kicked off with HOTD4 and then had a bevvy of games like Afterburner Climax before getting VF5.

also, vf and shenmue shared a lot of technology in terms of motion capture assets. shenmue's conception even started when yu suzuki took a research trip to china for vf. both series are joined at the hip in a lot of ways. it's not unreasonable for sega to be fine taking some profit away from its arcade megahit to finance something more interesting and ambitious for consoles.

Not to mention this is historically how hollywood has operated - ambitious auteur titles are propped up by profits of mainstream successes. Martin Scorsese is like the epitome of this. This is the way it should work, and has worked for decades in hollywood.

 

[ReBurn]

Am I crazy but that doesn't sound like a good thing, don't you want all your products to turn some kind profit?

Sometimes it's good to invest in a loss leader to build brand recognition and drive portfolio diversity and future earnings potential. Companies take losses on products all the time because they lead to sales of other stuff that makes money. I'm not saying that Shenmue was a loss leader, just that sometimes it makes sense in the big picture.

That said, there's probably no way a project like Shenmue would receive a greenlight today if it required building all new infrastructure to support it like it did back then. Suzuki must be so happy that Unreal Engine exists, because without something like that he'd probably never be able to pull it off.

 

[Aki-at]

He definitely was involved in at least some part of Daytona USA's development - it was Sega's first texture mapped 3D game using Lockheed's technology that Yu Suzuki himself worked on. In fact, that's likely why he didn't direct Daytona USA in the first place - he was busy in 1993 designing the Model 2 board's texture mapping units, which were developed in tandem with Daytona USA.

He was also busy in 1993 developing this little idea that would eventually become this thing we know as shenmue...

Oh yeah he was involved in the tech, no doubt about that, but the actual game idea and development wasn't something he was participating in. But he was still essential to SEGA's 3D games being successful.

Yes, because Daytona USA was actually Nagoshi's game.

I thought as much but I can never find any direct credits, just some odd interviews here and there that talks about how the game came to be.

 

[protomouse]

It may have made sense for Sega anno 2000 to take on loss projects like Shenmue. I don't think it necessarily makes sense for them to do so today. On the other hand, the economics of Shenmue are quite interesting. I think that kind of game was just a bit too ahead of its time, and will have a much better chance of being profitable today - when even those awful Quantic Dream games can sell millions on a single platform (I believe Heavy Rain grossed upwards $100M).

 

[akilshohen]

That's because the last VF game was released 5 years ago and didn't get a home port until 2 years later that was a digital download only title. Hard to cultivate an audience like that.

At it's height, Virtua Fighter was one of the most popular fighting game franchises around.

I'm lost. Weren't there 3 home versions of VF5?

 

[Y2Kev]

The phrasing implies that VF3 and VF4 paid for VF3 and VF4. The "profits" from VF3 and VF4 reflect revenues - costs, so they paid for themselves.