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[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

I'm lost. Weren't there 3 home versions of VF5?

The latest version (Final Showdown) was released 5 years ago which I think is what he was trying to say. VF 5 vanilla was released 9 years ago. Both of these things make me feel old.

 

[Squire]

I want them to make VF6, but how the games performed, what 15(?) years ago isn't really any sort of argument for making another. Market has shifted multiple times over.

 

[Renekton]

I thought it was meant to be a dreamcast-pusher so they willingly took a loss on that.

One thing that bugged me. Arcade boards used to have specs far outstripping home devices at the time, like the AM3. Nowadays they use celeries and budgetvidia so arcades look like PS2 era throwbacks.

 

[Krejlooc]

I'm lost. Weren't there 3 home versions of VF5?

There was vanilla VF5, which was originally released in 2006, which released without online play early in the PS3's lifeline when it was really struggling in 2007. This was followed up very shortly after with a quiet release of Virtua Fighter 5 Online on the Xbox 360. The PS3 version never got an online update.

Right as Virtua Fighter 5 Online was releasing on the 360, Virtua Fighter 5R was releasing in the arcades. Virtua Fighter 5R never got a home port.

Then Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown was released in 2010. It didn't get a home port until 2012 on the Xbox 360 and PS3 as DD titles.

The phrasing implies that VF3 and VF4 paid for VF3 and VF4. The "profits" from VF3 and VF4 reflect revenues - costs, so they paid for themselves.

No, the phrasing is directly related to the cost of Shenmue:

Asked if he thinks Shenmue losing money hurt his ability to make deals, Suzuki acknowledges that Sega took a loss on the game but says the company "easily recouped" Shenmue's development budget with profits from Virtua Fighter 3 and 4 — two other games he worked on alongside Shenmue — so he doesn't think that's the case.

This is not saying Virtua Fighter 3 and 4 made as much money as Shenmue cost to make. It is saying the losses Sega made with Shenmue were recouped from VF3 and VF4's profits.

Profit already factors out development cost.

 

[oneida]

as a side note, those interested in VF should know there's a 3 day tournament in NYC in 2 weeks.
trailer...
VF3 vanilla? it'll be there
VF4FT? yup
5R? you bet

should be really great. last year was amazing, more people coming this year. some attendees have been playing since VF1.

 

[Jaeger]

I would love a VF6.

 

[MrCunningham]

That did beat out the Genesis version, didn't it? 4 is the first one then where all of the home console releases were good.

The Genesis version was released about a year later, but yeah. But the VF2 port for the Saturn actually played a little better than its arcade counterpart and ran at a smooth 60FPS (though interlaced) and at a resolution of 708x480. It was missing the polygon environments of the original, and of course the models weren't ad detailed as the Model 2 game, but everything else was there. I remember logging so many countless hours with this game on my Saturn. It was a fantastic port and oe of the best reasons to own a Saturn back in the day.

Virtua Fighter 1 on the Saturn was pretty botched and had weird AI issues and buggy graphics that resulted in pop-in. But there was a second version released on the Saturn called Virtua Fighter Remix that resolves those issues and even adds additional textures to the characters. There was also a solid port on the 32X, which actually played better than the original Sega Saturn port, even though the models were very low poly.

Virtua Fighter 3TB on the Dreamcast was not a bad port, but it was also not arcade perfect and did have some issues with slowdown.

Maybe VF4 was one of the first arcade accurate home ports of Virtua Fighter on a console, but it was not the first good one on a console.

 

[hamchan]

So Jeff Gerstmann was right. Make VF6 instead of Shenmue 3.

 

[MrCunningham]

So Jeff Gerstmann was right. Make VF6 instead of Shenmue 3.

I would love to see both, myself. But I think you just have to just give Shenmue 3 to Yu. Let the man get this game out of his system and give him some closure on the series.

 

[Y2Kev]

There was vanilla VF5, which was originally released in 2006, which released without online play early in the PS3's lifeline when it was really struggling in 2007. This was followed up very shortly after with a quiet release of Virtua Fighter 5 Online on the Xbox 360. The PS3 version never got an online update.

Right as Virtua Fighter 5 Online was releasing on the 360, Virtua Fighter 5R was releasing in the arcades. Virtua Fighter 5R never got a home port.

Then Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown was released in 2010. It didn't get a home port until 2012 on the Xbox 360 and PS3 as DD titles.



No, the phrasing is directly related to the cost of Shenmue:

No no, somebody asked what paid for VF3 and VF4. I'm saying VF3 and VF4 paid for VF3 and VF4 AND recouped the loss on Shenmue.

 

[oneida]

The Genesis version was released about a year later, but yeah. But the VF2 port for the Saturn actually played a little better than its arcade counterpart and ran at a smooth 60FPS (though interlaced) and at a resolution of 708x480. It was missing the polygon environments of the original, and of course the models weren't ad detailed as the Model 2 game, but everything else was there. I remember logging so many countless hours with this game on my Saturn. It was a fantastic port and oe of the best reasons to own a Saturn back in the day.

Virtua Fighter 1 on the Saturn was pretty botched and had weird AI issues and buggy graphics that resulted in pop-in. But there was a second version released on the Saturn called Virtua Fighter Remix that resolves those issues and even adds additional textures to the characters. There was also a solid port on the 32X, which actually played better than the Saturn port even though the models were very low poly.

Virtua Fighter 3TB on the Dreamcast was not a bad port, but it was also not arcade perfect and did have some issues with slowdown.

Maybe VF4 was one of the first arcade accurate home ports of Virtua Fighter on a console, but it was not the first good one on a console.

VF4 on PS2 saw more dramatic visual compromises than 3tb did on Dreamcast. Vanilla in particular looked much worse than arcade and had horrendous load times.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Most of Shenmues budget went to the creation of tools and engines that Sega would have used in the future. Shenmue's budget was basically Sega building a foundation for future games that never got used.

In that instance, Shenmue was supposed to be a loss to make money in the future.

But people concentrate on Shenmue, claming it's the reason Sega went under. Like Shenmue killed Sega, essentially. That clearly isn't the case, when the guy behind Shenmue had other enormous profit earning projects.

Kinda like how Konami will squander Fox Engine and the revelations that Kojima cost too much will be perpetuated in the future... but probably a bit less blatant/mean spirited, and I doubt MGS5 can "fail" in any way other than how Square considered Tomb Raider reboot a failure.

 

[MrCunningham]

VF4 on PS2 saw more dramatic visual compromises than 3tb did on Dreamcast. Vanilla in particular looked much worse than arcade and had horrendous load times.

OK, to be honest I have never seen a VF4 machine or have ever played the arcade cabinet. I always assumed that the PS2 was pretty accurate >< . I really need to play that version of the game again.

VF3:TB was not that bad of a port, it did have slowdown during some of the fly bys of the ring, but it always ran at a solid 60 in game.

 

[Krejlooc]

No no, somebody asked what paid for VF3 and VF4. I'm saying VF3 and VF4 paid for VF3 and VF4 AND recouped the loss on Shenmue.

Ah, my mistake, I thought you misinterpreted the quote.

 

[Krejlooc]

VF3:TB was not that bad of a port, it did have slowdown during some of the fly bys of the ring, but it always ran at a solid 60 in game.

It felt like an enormous let down, however, after the absolutely stellar VF2 saturn port and then Fighter's Megamix. It just felt very bare bones... it lacked a versus mode all together, as an example!

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

Isn't the KI/DOA model working well for both companies? I can't see any reason why Virtua Fighter couldn't do just as well as those games. It's still spoken of fondly in any fighting game circle. If they're worried about poisoning the well, don't put a 6 at the end. Call it VF Online or VF Freeplay.

It's such a core IP. Every game has been acclaimed. Fighting game are doing better then they've done in a while right now. Hell, I was garbage at VF, and I still would spend money on a new one.

 

[Karak]

I personally think if any game could be a competitive game in both todays normal market but also the Esports arena it would be a VF game. I mean...damn

 

[Krejlooc]

I personally think if any game could be a competitive game in both todays normal market but also the Esports arena it would be a VF game. I mean...damn

I like how Yu Suzuki talks about Tekken and DOA compared to Virtua Fighter. Paraphrasing, in his words - Virtua Fighter was his attempt at making a simulation. DOA and Tekken are more like entertainment products. He thinks both have a market and likes both styles very much.

Thinking about Virtua Fighter as a sim just makes sense in my head, given the goals of the game.

 

[Soltype]

I like how Yu Suzuki talks about Tekken and DOA compared to Virtua Fighter. Paraphrasing, in his words - Virtua Fighter was his attempt at making a simulation. DOA and Tekken are more like entertainment products. He thinks both have a market and likes both styles very much.

Thinking about Virtua Fighter as a sim just makes sense in my head, given the goals of the game.

Well it being a sim explains the skill ceiling and the user base.We need VF though to counter balance all the nonsense that's in almost every fighter today.It seems like all the fgs have jumped the shark.

 

[Krejlooc]

Well it being a sim explains the skill ceiling and the user base.We need VF though to counter balance all the nonsense that's in almost every fighter today.It seems like all the fgs have jumped the shark.

Now, granted, I'm in no way an expert player, but I've been playing the series since VF1 first hit the arcades and, while the skill ceiling is indeed very high, I think that angle gets sort of over played. VF is a game that's easy to pick up and play, IMO, but extremely difficult to master. you don't have to be amazing to have fun playing the game unless you're playing someone who is just way way good.

The best compliment I can give VF as a series, however, is that you always get better the more time you put in, guaranteed.

 

[Soltype]

Now, granted, I'm in no way an expert player, but I've been playing the series since VF1 first hit the arcades and, while the skill ceiling is indeed very high, I think that angle gets sort of over played. VF is a game that's easy to pick up and play, IMO, but extremely difficult to master. you don't have to be amazing to have fun playing the game unless you're playing someone who is just way way good.

The best compliment I can give VF as a series, however, is that you always get better the more time you put in, guaranteed.

Yeah people do exaggerate it's difficulty, it's not daunting until you try to move up, but it's a very steep climb to top.

 

[MrCunningham]

It felt like an enormous let down, however, after the absolutely stellar VF2 saturn port and then Fighter's Megamix. It just felt very bare bones... it lacked a versus mode all together, as an example!

Yeah its bare bones features were pretty bad. I don't know why, but early Model 3 Dreamcast ports like VF3:TB and Sega Rally 2 were quite disappointing. Sega Rally 2 was the first game I bought for my Dreamcast and I was so sad to see its inconstant framerate.

Yeah people do exaggerate it's difficulty, it's not daunting until you try to move up, but it's a very steep climb to top.

Yeah, the series is more about learning curve than difficulty. They all use a simple three button layout, guard punch and kick, and the games are pretty button masher friendly. But to actually learn how to play the game, it does take a lot of study.

 

[dreamcastmaster]

They brought the most important parts of VF3 home already:

I would much rather have FMM2... or maybe for footage of the supposedly "almost complete" port of VF3 to the Saturn.

VF3 on Saturn It was 100% finished. Someone really should ask Yu to release some footage and screens.

 

[Krejlooc]

VF3 on Saturn It was 100% finished. Someone really should ask Yu to release some footage and screens.

I know Yakumo over at Assembler says as much, and that he saw it running behind closed doors, but I'm guessing it was "100% finished" in the same way Star Fox 2 was "100% finished." Which is to say, yes, they were done, but not not actually ready to go gold.

I'm so curious what it would have looked or played like. Unlike VF3 on the dreamcast, VF3 on the saturn was actually handled by AM2. And this was after all they'd learned doing VF2, then Fighters Megamix, then Shenmue. I'd imagine that, by the time VF3 rolled around, they could probably have made that baby sing like no one else.

It's insane that not a single screenshot of this widely talked about version has ever surfaced, outside of those obviously fake renders a while back.

 

[MikeMyers]

VF3 probably should have come out on the Saturn in Japan. System did alright there and VF3 could have helped keep it alive for a while.

 

[kunonabi]

as a side note, those interested in VF should know there's a 3 day tournament in NYC in 2 weeks.
trailer...
VF3 vanilla? it'll be there
VF4FT? yup
5R? you bet

should be really great. last year was amazing, more people coming this year. some attendees have been playing since VF1.

Man, I really need to watch this as those are my two favorite VFs. I really wish there was more VF3 info online than there is.

 

[Krejlooc]

VF3 probably should have come out on the Saturn in Japan. System did alright there and VF3 could have helped keep it alive for a while.

They felt, given the enormous popularity it had in japan at the time, that releasing it for the system they were abandoning would confuse customers. They moved it to the dreamcast hoping the fanbase would move with it.

 

[flipswitch]

I haven't owned that many fighting games, but VF4 on PS2 had an insane amount of depth and I would regard it as the best I've ever played.Kumite mode.

 

[MikeMyers]

They felt, given the enormous popularity it had in japan at the time, that releasing it for the system they were abandoning would confuse customers. They moved it to the dreamcast hoping the fanbase would move with it.

Ah.

It was a shame about the Dreamcast port though. Seems like more people were going with Soul Calibur or even Dead or Alive 2 over Sega's own fighter.

 

[Forkball]

I never played 5, but I loved 4. I only played a bit of 3 though. IF ONLY THERE WAS SOME WAY TO PUT THESE GAMES ON CURRENT CONSOLES/PC.

 

[ChamplooJones]

as a side note, those interested in VF should know there's a 3 day tournament in NYC in 2 weeks.
trailer...
VF3 vanilla? it'll be there
VF4FT? yup
5R? you bet

should be really great. last year was amazing, more people coming this year. some attendees have been playing since VF1.

Dope trailer.

 

[HueyFreeman]

What SHOULD happen, if we lived in a just world, is that Namco and Tecmo would cross over with Sega, and we'd get Fighters Megamix 2 - Virtua Fighter vs Tekken vs Dead or Alive.

We don't live in a just world, unfortunately.

Also, outrun 3. And Daytona USA 3.

No way man - keep those second rate fighters out of my VF.

I haven't owned that many fighting games, but VF4 on PS2 had an insane amount of depth and I would regard it as the best I've ever played.Kumite mode.

Yup. In particular if we're talking about VF4 Evo which is the best fighting game ever made.

 

[alstein]

I'll buy a PS4 or Xbone for VF6. Honestly the only thing that would make me want a new console. I'm sure the countless VF players out there would too.

It's pretty much the only thing that would get me to buy a console.

VF5 did have some nonsense in it, especially R and FS.

VF6 done with the online bells and whistles of SF5 and better customization would do very well.

 

[AmyS]

Very nice video of Virtua Fighter 4 version C - Actual NAOMI 2 hardware and YT 720p60.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdh-Ue1we9k

 

[MikeMyers]

I enjoy all the VF's, but I think 2 was the pinnacle of the series for me.

 

[Rymuth]

No no, somebody asked what paid for VF3 and VF4. I'm saying VF3 and VF4 paid for VF3 and VF4 AND recouped the loss on Shenmue.

I have a name, you know.

 

[cireza]

Virtua Fighter 2 on Saturn was a godlike port. The kind of port that we have not seen often in gaming history. Released pretty close to the arcade game, yet unbelievably close to the arcade and making smart use of the hardware (= Saturn).

Virtua Fighter 5, available almost at launch on PS3 (in Europe) was another amazing early port. Released at a time where the market was not into fighting games at all. Really glad that Sega took the risk back then. Of course, the later Final Showdown port is technically better.

 

[oneida]

I enjoy all the VF's, but I think 2 was the pinnacle of the series for me.

I have fond memories of playing 2 as a kid, and it's still fun to play, but the movelists aren't as interesting as they would get in 3, and it's hard to go back to VF without evade.

4EVO is undoubtedly the best VF game in terms of content, and lots of people find it to be the most competitively rewarding too.

I think 5FS is my favorite to play competitively. Movement is so good in that game and all the characters are great.

 

[Trojan X]

That did beat out the Genesis version, didn't it? 4 is the first one then where all of the home console releases were good.

Madness talk. You don't know your history, my friend.

All versions for VF were awesome. VF3 was the only version that was barebone to the arcade though but, baring the PAL version due to speed, the conversion was still solid and amazing.

 

[Trojan X]

1) How much of that $47 mil is in 2015 dollars?
2) Wait, where are you getting that $47 million figure from? I've always heard Shenmue 1 alone was at least $70 million.

I will settle this once and for all. Please communicate this to everyone so this will never be questioned again.

ENTIRE Shenmue (1 & 2) Project = Approximately $70 million.

Here is the breakdown:

• Shenmue 1 development
• Many parts of Shenmue 2's development
• Shenmue series R&D
• Some of Shenmue 3's character models development
• Shenmue's Sega Saturn R&D
• Shenmue's Sega Saturn development
• Shenmue's Dreamcast graphics engine R&D
• Shenmue 1, 2 & 3 Music creation, composition & creation cost (they use full orchestra, and there are tons and tons of tracks & songs they are yet to use)

Cost - $47 million

• Shenmue 1 worldwide marketing

Cost = $23 million


Proof?

• Years of interviews and public statement from Yu Suzuki, Medias and SEGA.

Where did the $70 million big mentioning came from?

• Blame SEGA West (Europe & America). They wanted to use the total costing as a form of PR to increase customer acquisition and interest. It worked to a degree but from a long term and general point of view, it created confusion and damaged credibility in the long run.

Now circulate and move on. Shenmue entire project, though very ambitious or a stretch, the spending was ok when compared to other games.

 

[border]

Not to mention this is historically how hollywood has operated - ambitious auteur titles are propped up by profits of mainstream successes. Martin Scorsese is like the epitome of this. This is the way it should work, and has worked for decades in hollywood.

Hollywood's ambitious auteur titles typically do not command Guinness record setting budgets. When massive budgets are approved, they are typically not chalked up as an R&D expense.....most films are still expected to be profitable on their own two feet.

it's not unreasonable for sega to be fine taking some profit away from its arcade megahit to finance something more interesting and ambitious for consoles.

I think Suzuki here is just trying to justify his legacy in a fair way.....at the end of the day, he made more money than he lost and that's a decent way to look at it.

It's clear though that Sega was not really fine with writing off Shenmue, given that they never gave him any large-scope projects after that. The game is Suzuki's Heaven's Gate, if we are to continue the Hollywood metaphor.

 

[petran79]

flyer mentions 40.000 VF3 arcade cabs sold worldwide

Assuming one unit costs 1000 $, that would be 40 million
Even more than VF4 PS2 sales!

 

[oneida]

flyer mentions 40.000 VF3 arcade cabs sold worldwide

Assuming one unit costs 1000 $, that would be 40 million
Even more than VF4 PS2 sales!

console port had a nearly 1:1 attach rate at dreamcast launch in Japan

 

[kinn]

Great thread Krejlooc. Did not know this!

Most of Shenmues budget went to the creation of tools and engines that Sega would have used in the future. Shenmue's budget was basically Sega building a foundation for future games that never got used.

In that instance, Shenmue was supposed to be a loss to make money in the future.

But people concentrate on Shenmue, claming it's the reason Sega went under. Like Shenmue killed Sega, essentially. That clearly isn't the case, when the guy behind Shenmue had other enormous profit earning projects.

This hurts. The guy is a legend. Why did Sega sideline him? Seems like he wasn't allowed to make anything after. There was that great Ferrari 355, Sega TV racer (was he involved?), and some cancelled touch screen shooter? How come Nagaoshi became the "main man" it seems at Sega and not Yu?

They brought the most important parts of VF3 home already:

I would much rather have FMM2... or maybe for footage of the supposedly "almost complete" port of VF3 to the Saturn.

I know Yakumo over at Assembler says as much, and that he saw it running behind closed doors, but I'm guessing it was "100% finished" in the same way Star Fox 2 was "100% finished." Which is to say, yes, they were done, but not not actually ready to go gold.

I'm so curious what it would have looked or played like. Unlike VF3 on the dreamcast, VF3 on the saturn was actually handled by AM2. And this was after all they'd learned doing VF2, then Fighters Megamix, then Shenmue. I'd imagine that, by the time VF3 rolled around, they could probably have made that baby sing like no one else.

It's insane that not a single screenshot of this widely talked about version has ever surfaced, outside of those obviously fake renders a while back.

I would love to see this. Just something about seeing hardware punching above it weight. I remember reading somewhere that there were infact 2 versions that were developed for the Saturn?

 

[MikeMyers]

I have fond memories of playing 2 as a kid, and it's still fun to play, but the movelists aren't as interesting as they would get in 3, and it's hard to go back to VF without evade.

4EVO is undoubtedly the best VF game in terms of content, and lots of people find it to be the most competitively rewarding too.

I think 5FS is my favorite to play competitively. Movement is so good in that game and all the characters are great.

4EVO is indeed a classic. Too bad my PS3 could play PS2 games.

 

[MrCunningham]

I would love to see this. Just something about seeing hardware punching above it weight. I remember reading somewhere that there were infact 2 versions that were developed for the Saturn?

I remember rumors about one version of the game using the 4MB RAM cart. I wonder if that was true? There already was one 3D fighter on the Saturn that used the cartridge, which was Final Fight Revenge.

 

[Krejlooc]

I remember rumors about one version of the game using the 4MB RAM cart. I wonder if that was true? There already was one 3D fighter on the Saturn that used the cartridge, which was Final Fight Revenge.

Final Fight Revenge came out in July 1999, well after the Dreamcast port of VF3 had been out.

 

[NolbertoS]

If you're in America, maybe. My understanding was that they were huge earners in Japanese arcades and very popular over there.

In the US and Canada in the early 2000's, Virtua Fighter and Striker were top arcade earners here. I remember people spending hours lining up to play at Virtua Fighter 2. Virtua Striker was also popular. I was king of my local arcade beat hundreds of challengers at Virtua Striker. Man I would kill for a Virtua Fighter and Striker on PS4/Xbone

 

[Zantetsuken]

I tried so hard to master Akira and his counters. Tough.

 

[Celine]

I think people are looking through console only glasses.

Arcades are/were super profitable for SEGA.

console port had a nearly 1:1 attach rate at dreamcast launch in Japan

VF3 TB sell-through between Japan and US was roughly 400K.