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[Elephant]

Symmetra's language could be explained by her upbringing, with the English language being considered an "Elite" language in India. It's extremely popular for the rich to send their children to English speaking schools.

Although born in poverty, Symmetra was taken on by the Vishkar Corporation at a relatively young age. It seems feasible that they would push English as a first language.

Edit: I do like it when characters use their native language. But it's worth noting that English is a universal language. The language of business. A lot of children from around the world can already speak English pretty damn well by the time Little Johnny picks up his French dictionary for the first time.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Wait, what? How?

The train of thought is that the Gerudo had a Champion representative possess one out of four divine beasts along with the other non-hylian, non-shiekah races. Though in this case, I don't think it's fair to say Gerudo are being lumped with the "non-human" races based on the context of how the races were chosen to gain though beasts, as Link, a Hylian, is also a Champion alongside the other four.

This is also not accounting for the fact that the last time any of these races were concerned as "guardians" was around Ocarina of Time when all of them sans Rito had a representation within the Seven Sages (With Zelda and Rauru as the hylian representatives and Impa as the Sheikah representative).

 

[MåndagSöndag]

Is there no end to this ridiculousness.

A game should not have to represent anything.

 

[Charles Brandon]

So according to Nintendo, Arabs are down there with the fish and even rocks smh.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

I think you're deliberately avoiding their point.

Also, you'll find out that 99% of entertainment features stereotypes, they're hugely helpful for building narrative and characters without destroying the pacing of said entertainment product.

The issue is not stereotypes per se. The really fundamental thing is those stereotypes shouldn't be offensive or degrading for those involved. And I honestly can't see anything offensive here, especially since the Gerudo is the most interesting tribe in BOTW as far as characters/diversity/quests/setting goes.
Honestly, I think it's well written, but to each his own I guess.

Their point is that Zelda should be exempt from this article because of its roots in fantasy. I rebuked that claim because Zelda, regardless, is yet another example of brown people being stereotyped with cherrypicked images of Middle East cultures. Does that make it offensive in the context of the game by itself? No. But things aren't in a vacuum. When taking Zelda and the other examples together, there's a clear pattern of stereotypying brown identities to be magical desert people in video games.

That's been my point from the beginning and why I also think it's not nearly the same thing to be bringing in European and East Asian, specifically Japanese, cultural depictions into the conversation because there's already a lot of different types of media out there that represents those groups

 

[Leezard]

The voice actor choices are really odd...

Torbjörn's voice actor isn't even Swedish!

Is Reinhardt's voice actor German? I don't hear him speak German at all in the game!

So odd.

It's a damn shame that some characters are allowed to speak their native languages but Torbjörn isn't. Make him speak Swedish all day.

 

[Candescence]

Concerning Naboris, honestly, the camel makes a lot more sense than Vah Ruta, a fucking elephant associated with water/lakes/rivers and a race of fish people. I think the development team was much more interested in the question of "which animal has at least both a tangential connection to the biome/element for that area and the form with the most interesting gameplay opportunities?"

Naboris is a camel because it's the desert-associated species that a form that could provide the most interesting gameplay opportunities. Similar reason for the other three Divine Beasts. And frankly, I'm happy that went that route, all three dungeons are far more unique and memorable that way, even if people will gripe about stereotypes and representation as a result, but I honestly think even then I think it's practically a non-issue.


I mean, I maybe see where they're coming from with the Gerudo, but the Gerudo in general in BOTW are memorable and amazing in their own right, IMO, so I'm happy to overlook that issue this time.

Edit: Also, it would be nice for more characters in Overwatch to speak their native language, though Symmetra speaking English kinda makes sense since English is big in India, and Elephant points out she was practically raised by the Vishkar Corporation, who probably emphasise English over other languages and probably don't give a shit about Indian culture because they're dickheads.

 

[BossDarkseid]

Symmetra's language could be explained by her upbringing, with the English language being considered an "Elite" language in India. It's extremely popular for the rich to send their children to English speaking schools.

Although born in poverty, Symmetra was taken on by the Vishkar Corporation at a relatively young age. It seems feasible that they would push English as a first language.

Edit: I do like it when characters use their native language. But it's worth noting that English is a universal language. The language of business. A lot of children from around the world can already speak English pretty damn well by the time Little Johnny picks up his French dictionary for the first time.

I'd be surprised if we don't get any VA lines in Hindi for Symmetra later this year, considering one of the recent leaks about OW (that also included the Moon Base) suggested we were getting a New Zealand map and a Utopia (city in India) Map, for Roadhog and Symmetra respectively. They said that wherever possible they like to get VAs who can speak both their characters native language and English, but in the case of say Johnny Cruz for Lucio sometimes they get someone who just embodies the character so much you look at it in a different way.

 

[Sarek]

Did you even read the article or? Cherrypicking the cool stuff from each individual culture and not giving it the nuance it deserves leads to bastardized forms of "diversity."

Cherrypicking the cool stuff is also the reason most people travel to see other countries. So I guess tourism is also racist now.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

I'm Romanian and the only depiction of a Romanian I can think of in video games is Vamp from MGS and Dracula from Castlevania, but I don't really mind and I don't think anyone does. I think it's really awesome that they depict Vlad Tepes in such ways, even if it's the only thing we're known for, especially since Vlad Tepes is from my region.

Another cool one was in Hotel Transylvania when Dracula was clueless how villagers like me looked since he hadn't stepped out of his castle in a long time, so he dressed them in traditional Aradian and Maramuresean clothing, which was again very cool to see since I wore those on multiple occasions, but by your definition it would be a bad representation and a mishmash of cultures since they mixed some elements from clothing of other regions.

Your examples are just as valid as the writer. Do you take personal issue with how Romanians are depicted? No. But that doesn't it any less disappointing to see your people represented that way.

Eastern Europeans are another subject entirely and your specific culture not getting the representation it deserves is shameful as well. That doesn't make the premise of the article any less true, if anything, you can apply the same arguments he's been using to yours and it'd still ring true.

Cherrypicking the cool stuff is also the reason most people travel to see other countries. So I guess tourism is also racist now.

No it doesn't and neither does eating sushi make you racist. Not the same thing and I'm not even going to give this the time of day

 

[DemWalls]

Wonder what they'd think of Hearts of Stone's Zerrikanian (Arab) characters.

 

[patapuf]

Their point is that Zelda should be exempt from this article because of its roots in fantasy. I rebuked that claim because Zelda, regardless, is yet another example of brown people being stereotyped with cherrypicked images of Middle East cultures. Does that make it offensive in the context of the game by itself? No. But things aren't in a vacuum. When taking Zelda and the other examples together, there's a clear pattern of stereotypying brown identities to be magical desert people in video games.

That's been my point from the beginning and why I also think it's not nearly the same thing to be bringing in European and East Asian, specifically Japanese, cultural depictions into the conversation because there's already a lot of different types of media out there that represents those groups

I feel these arguments always ignore the culture that comes out from these countries.

Maybe it's because i'm from a small country, but cultural representation not rooted in cliches is almost entirely what we produce on our own. And even then...

It's not like India or the Middle East struggle to produce lot's of culture. Especially India.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

I feel these arguments always ignore the culture that comes out from these countries.

Maybe it's because i'm from a small country, but cultural representation not rooted in cliches is almost entirely what we produce on our own. And even then...

It's not like India or the Middle East struggle to produce lot's of culture. Especially India.

I'm a brown POC myself and I surround myself with a lot of brown people in my daily life. Navigating my life in the US makes it really difficult for me to see the type of media that people that live in my native country would otherwise. I constantly bring up the soft power of Japan, Western Europe, and the behemoth that is the USA up because of this. I'm not readily exposed to media that portrays people like me non-stereotypically and it would be nice to see brown POC evolve from magical desert folk into something else entirely. Brown desert folk can continue to exist in fantasy settings, sure, but there could be more than just that.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Fantasy franchises have always been about taking vague amalgamations of real-world cultures and making a "new" one from it. Hell, even in BotW you have the distinctly east-Asian Shiekah tribe, the Hawaian (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) inspired Lurelin Village and the very much Anglo-Saxon inspired Hylians, the races that don't have a direct real-life inspiration are fish, birds, and rocks. I won't go as far as saying it isn't an issue because as a British White guy I'm not exactly qualified, but I would say that positive, imperfect representation is better than none.

Honestly, I'm not even sure you can make an argument about representation of real life peoples and cultures by looking at a fictional "non-earth" fantasy world as an example.

I honestly think the writer does a disservice to to his point by using an example of a fictional, non-earth world, whose people and cultures are entirely defined by the rules that the writer/creator themselves define. I mean, what is your point in using Hyrule as an example? Hyrule isn't representing Earth peoples and cultures well enough? Well, clearly they aren't peoples and cultures of earth, they're peoples and cultures of Hyrule... His example makes no sense.

It's a shame really, because I do think this is a worthwhile discussion to have. I would have picked on games like Assassin's Creed: Origins, whose MC speaks with "generic Hollywood-African accent #252535", instead of actually putting the effort in to try to emulate a real-life regional Egyptian accent. On the flip side, we can be thankful that the MC is black... so there's some progress there to be celebrated at least.

 

[Macchiato]

They aren't. IDK if you guys played BotW but the Champions are Link, Urbosa, Daruk, Revali and Mipha, Zelda is their "commander", Link is the one who wields the Master Sword, Zelda has

Spoiler

the Triforce

and the others pilot the Divine Beasts. The Korok, for example, are another non human race but they don't pilot anything. The Sheikah handle the Divine Beast and Guardian maintenance and development.

The train of thought is that the Gerudo had a Champion representative possess one out of four divine beasts along with the other non-hylian, non-shiekah races. Though in this case, I don't think it's fair to say Gerudo are being lumped with the "non-human" races based on the context of how the races were chosen to gain though beasts, as Link, a Hylian, is also a Champion alongside the other four.

This is also not accounting for the fact that the last time any of these races were concerned as "guardians" was around Ocarina of Time when all of them sans Rito had a representation within the Seven Sages (With Zelda and Rauru as the hylian representatives and Impa as the Sheikah representative).

Yeah that sounds like they reached waay up their butt for that point then.

I don't know, I'm really all for re-evaluating how we represent women and minorities in all media (being both myself), but with this hot take I can't feel like it's about finding an issue with a (largely well done) fictional brown populace.

 

[Lupercal]

The things people get worked up about these days.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I honestly don't know how to communicate these issues to the wider gaming audience. You use specific games as an example, and people get butthurt that their favorite game got criticized. You don't use an example and just speak in generalities, and people just don't even pay attention.

 

[Kinyou]

Or Dragon Age has writing chops to back it up.

It takes elements and imagery from real cultures just as much as any other fantasy media. There's really nothing special about the writing.

 

[wandering]

Wait, what? How?

Is it really that difficult to see how the Gerudo are treated more like the Rito, Gorons, and Zora than they are the Hylians and Sheikah?

 

[watershed]

I'm a brown POC myself and I surround myself with a lot of brown people in my daily life. Navigating my life in the US makes it really difficult for me to see the type of media that people that live in my native country would otherwise. I constantly bring up the soft power of Japan, Western Europe, and the behemoth that is the USA up because of this. I'm not readily exposed to media that portrays people like me non-stereotypically and it would be nice to see brown POC evolve from magical desert folk into something else entirely. Brown desert folk can continue to exist in fantasy settings, sure, but there could be more than just that.

I think BOTW does a genuinely decent effort of representing brown people. Outside of the being rooted in a cultural stereotype of brown people, the actual Gerudo are diverse and complex in many ways. And there is Lurelin Village which is themed after Pacific Island and Southeast Asian cultures. I think there are also many brown Hylians and at least 1 brown skinned Sheikah. And most importantly, none of the Gerudo are stereotypical brown villain tropes or jokes.

 

[Majukun]

I honestly don't know how to communicate these issues to the wider gaming audience. You use specific games as an example, and people get butthurt that their favorite game got criticized. You don't use an example and just speak in generalities, and people just don't even pay attention.

oh, reducing any kind of problem with the article with "fan of the games being butthurt", an oldie but goldie move sir, well done.

 

[B.O.O.M]

The things people get worked up about these days.

I disagree. Having a discussion doesn't necessarily mean people are worked up. It's healthy to have these topics out in the open.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Ah yes, Said. Orientalism. To Attest that a fantasy game uses culturally rooted tropes to make it's fiction relatable is stating the obvious.
The thing that puzzles me is how so many think that using tropes is instantly a bad thing, when in fact it's just one tool of storytelling.

The Gerudo are some of the best fictional people I've seen so far. They incorporate different tropes, yes. But they create a very unique whole, that elevates itself over the singular influences. So yeah I absolutely disagree with the article.

 

[Necro900]

That's been my point from the beginning and why I also think it's not nearly the same thing to be bringing in European and East Asian, specifically Japanese, cultural depictions into the conversation because there's already a lot of different types of media out there that represents those groups

And how exactly are you writing off talking about representation of said parts of the world? Are there really different types of good representation for each nationality that you could think of in those regions? You mean that's it for them, they achieved perfect representation and now we focus on "brown people"?

Not to start any kind of contest about "who's worse represented", but I strive to find an italian character that is not unnecessarily noisy/weird/ill mannered/speaking gibberish/ a gigolo/a mafia member in fiction (both games and movies), for instance. Now this is quite offensive and degrading. Some people even see mafia-related stuff as glamorous thanks to fiction, and I can't count the times I've been asked ridiculous question about knowing people from the mafia and such.

My point is every minority gets unfortunately stereotyped to a degree. Should we aim for a better and non-offensive representation? Yes.
To get back OT, is this a case of offensive representation? I don't think so. I'd go as far to say that it's the best characterized race in the whole game. But then again, I guess it's not for me to decide.

 

[Kamina]

Nintendo doesn't even want Gerudo to represent current middle peastern/arabic traits but to partly look like something from 1.000 years back.
Just as all other human races in the game are taken influences from all kinds of sources.

 

[Majukun]

Is it really that difficult to see how the Gerudo are treated more like the Rito, Gorons, and Zora than they are the Hylians and Sheikah?

yes?

hylians ans sheikans are linked because,well,they are in the lore of the game..i mean the sheikah are basically a shadow trive that serves the royal family of hyrule..they are as physically distinct as the gerudo,with their white hair and all, but they have way more interactions than the gerudo,that live in isolation in the desert and only really leave it when in search of a mate, since even commerce,one of the most prominent form of sustenance of the gerudo is still performed inside the desert in the near oasis

 

[AmayaPapaya]

The Gerudo, without a doubt, are meant to seem exotic. They are a race of only muscular, and tall Women, with dark skin, and bright Red Hair. I think the Middle Eastern influence is meant to increase this feeling, even more. Is that necessarily bad? I loved the Gerudo in Breath of the Wild, and we live in a world where artistic liberties on women, and middle east culture is simply nonexistent. Besides, people in the Middle East being portrayed as exotic is a breath of fresh air, given today's day and age. There is definitely more good than bad., even if using a culture is not the most politically correct thing to do on the planet. I want to see the Gerudo in every Zelda game, post Breath of the Wild, because they were just so well realized and unique. Hopefully Nintendo can work out the kinks, because we desperately need positive Middle Eastern representation.

Also, the Camel thing is stretching it. The Divine Beasts don't represent the people that use them, but the land they are used on. How does an elephant or lizard match the fish and rock people? It's also worth mentioning the Divine Beast the Ruto use, while being a bird, is designed nothing like the Ruto. A camel is the most obvious thing to choose for a desert, and a great artistic choice, IMO.

 

[Painguy]

This thread is funny.

"Well the Sheikah are based on Jomon, Edo, and Meiji Japan!"

"There are lots of things about the Gerudo that aren't Middle Eastern!"

The fact that you can point to specific Japanese cultural touchstones in the Sheikah while the Gerudo are just vaguely garbed in a Disney-esque Middle East aesthetic is pretty much the issue at hand...

I'm Iranian which the article's author also happens to be. Read the whole article. Agree about the COD thing. That was a fuck up, but the overwatch, sonic, and zelda thing is srsly stretching.

These are fantasy settings. It shouldn't matter that they are a mish mash of different cultures. That makes it cooler. I would figure that's the whole point. It's good to have your work grounded in some sort of reality. If people have a hard time discerning between a fantasy culture and a real one then it's the idiots fault for not being able to make that distinction. As an Iranian I was actually disappointed at the removal of the star and crescent designs, and the allah akbar chants in the fire temple. I thought it was super dope to have my part of my culture represented in a fantasy world. It certainly added to the immersion factor. (A very important reason why designers draw upon reality)

Also, of course the gerudo were represented as thieves. Their king was the literal incarnation of evil. No matter how low key ganondorf tries to be about that evil stuff with the kingdom of hyrule, some of that bad joo joo is gonna show up and turn peeps off. lol. Also always loved how Gerudos are an all female middle eastern society. It's like turning the male centered middle eastern society upside down. Pretty funny if you ask me. Not progressive, not disrespectful, just cheeky and cool.

Also with regards to the Aladdin thing. For a good chunk of time China had a large Islamic population. The story of Aladdin is not out of place at all even though the character is Chinese.

I can point out even more things.
Din is arabic, which common refers to law of the land.
The Sheikah is derived from sheik whihc is commonly used to refer to nobles and stuff.

This kinda leads to my point. Even the author is making slight hiccups with these cultural details. You can't and shouldn't expect everyone to be aware of these things, and even if they are, that shouldn't stop you from creating new things. It's ok to take liberties to create a new world. That's why we have Disney's Aladdin. That's a great piece of media.

I have no issue with video games trying to send a positive message and be progressive.
However, in those other games that's not the point. The designers are just trying to ground their work in some form of reality in order to form a basis, and make something new. Things that lack some form of grounded basis generally end up being a turn off in entertainment. It's not the job of these forms of video games to adhere to some impractical strict cultural sensitivity code. If a game tries to send a message like "All middle eastern throw rocks, and blow everything up" Then yeah, that's a big fucking issue. Shit like that shouldn't get a pass.

I am curious as to where others on this forum draw the line.

For example, if a startup created a new microprocessor with an instruction set architecture called "ISIS"(incredibly simple instruction set), and advertised it as having "explosive performance", even that wouldn't bother me. In this situation however, I understand why this is an issue, and why such a product deserves to fail or why the designers should make an attempt to correct their mistake.

Idk tho. That's just me. TBH i'd be pretty upset if I heard the camel beast was removed/changed because people like rye got upset Nintendo didn't decide to fully and corectly represent middle eastern culture. Nintendo, Sega, and Blizzard didn't fail to represent anything. They succeeded in representing a fake fantasy culture.

 

[wandering]

yes?

hylians ans sheikans are linked because,well,they are in the lore of the game..i mean the sheikah are basically a shadow trive that serves the royal family of hyrule..they are as physically distinct as the gerudo,with their white hair and all, but they have way more interactions than the gerudo,that live in isolation in the desert and only really leave it when in search of a mate, since even commerce,one of the most prominent form of sustenance of the gerudo is still performed inside the desert in the near oasis

None of what you just said came close to refuting my point...

 

[MCD]

The silly thing about Overwatch is the lack of Arabic language in the settings. You would think they will localize it with all these Arabic references and characters but nope.

 

[Death Penalty]

The Gerudo don't seem like that great of an example to me because fantasy settings constantly draw inspiration from real world cultures without meaning to parallel or represent those cultures. The Gerudo are not Middle-Eastern and they are not intended to represent them, any more than you could say the fair-skinned Hylians with their castles are European analogues. Like, Tolkien's elves take a ton of Germanic influence, for instance. I really wouldn't want fantasy to stop taking influence from the real world, even when that influence can get a little tropey.

The article's point is extremely valid despite this, though.

 

[GhostTrick]

All of you are missing the point I've been trying to make. It's not just Zelda. It's not the responisibility of Nintendo to solve all of this by making Zelda an alll-encompassing game. That's not the point. The point is that Brown representation in gaming is basic, stereotypical, and appropriated. Zelda is just another game that can be used as an example of exotization and bastarding Brown cultures in its game. There aren't many games that don't do this. It's just strikingly perplexing to me how almost every time a Brown person or culture is shown in a game they gotta immediately be from the magical desert.

There are brown people in Zelda games. And not only Gerudos. You should play Wind Waker for instance.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I honestly don't know how to communicate these issues to the wider gaming audience. You use specific games as an example, and people get butthurt that their favorite game got criticized. You don't use an example and just speak in generalities, and people just don't even pay attention.

My issue here is with the specific example in question. It makes no sense.

In an argument about ethnic representation in videogames, the writer entirely undermines his point by choosing an example of a fictional, non-earth world, which isn't even trying to represent earth-based peoples and cultures.

I mean, if this opinion piece was merely a commentary about the use of stereotypes in fictional gaming worlds and chose BoTW as an example, I'd be saying it's a worthwhile piece of commentary/criticism.

In relation, however, to the issue of representation of real-world cultures and peoples in videogames, choosing to examine a non-real-world gameworld is simply a waste of everyone's time and misses the point entirely.

My point is, the Gerudo people don't exist in the mind of the creator to represent real-world cultures. They may indeed be influenced by real-world peoples (and there's some value in discussing those parallels), but they are not real-world peoples, and thus are pretty irrelevant to the discussion of representation.

There are so many other games which display a much more problematic example of representation, which would have provided the writer a much stronger basis for his criticism, that would have driven home his point and (hopefully) got creators thinking enough to seek change moving forwards. The example in this article, however, feels like a contrivance and is likely only going to result in seeing most readers dismiss the article and its premise entirely (which is counter-productive).

 

[Majukun]

None of what you just said came close to refuting my point...

you said that they are treated differently from sheikan and hylian, i just highlighted how hylian and sheikan are supposed to be seen as in close connection compared to the other tribes of hyrule, whenever they are a different race altogether or just another tribe of humans,like the gerudo are.

and if you want the final proof of that,they regularly mate with hylians and whatever ethnic group the people from the fisher village are supposed to be, so they are all the same race.

going back with your first post about the gerudo being "lumped" with the non human races..it's more like sheikah and hylians are in closer connection than the rest

 

[GhostTrick]

Except the Gerudo are lumped in with the "non-human" races, rather than with the Hylians and Sheikah.

Mmh, no ? They only interact with Hylians.

 

[Red Arremer]

Symmetra is definitely not a bad representation of India, even though she doesn't speak one of the many Indian languages. That might possibly be because the voice actress Anjali Bhimani, while of Indian heritage, was born in the US and thus might not be able to speak Hindi. Or, if she is, the character of Symmetra was born in Hyderabad, and with the many different languages of India, it's very possible that Anjali does not speak Urdu or Telugu, and rather another language of the region her parents are from.
Furthermore, there are plenty of characters in the game that do not speak the language of their respective home nation, such as Torbjörn, Reinhardt, Zenyatta, Lucio and Pharah, and Mercy's voice actress speaks German not with a Swiss dialect, but with one from Germany.
If anything, I have to really commend Blizzard for trying to write dialogue in the characters' native language and find voice actors who are able to do so. That is above and beyond anything that most other developers, or even media creators in general do, and they even go out of their way to generally try and hire voice actors who are from the respective nation. There's some exceptions of course, but I still think that they've been doing a good job.

That said, Symmetra has a lot of very cool animations that are heavily influenced by traditional Indian dances and hand gestures. India also seems to be a technological powerhouse in the world of Overwatch, with Vishkar being one of the most powerful corporations in the world, and there is datamined info that

Spoiler

there might be a map coming up that is located in the city of Utopaea that was constructed and is maintained by Vishkar

.

Furthermore, ME also is represented in the game. There are 2 characters from Egypt, and while Pharah does not speak Egyptian, her mother Ana does, and two maps are located in Egypt. There also is the map of Oasis which is placed in Iraq and, much like India seems to be, is a technological marvel, governed by scientists. The founders of the city also have Arabic names by the way, as well as Arabic texts on posters and the like.
These maps look incredibly pretty, and while they are fictional locations, Blizzard did a great job in representing the culture's architecture with a lick of futuristic design.


So honestly, I really don't see the criticism here in regards to Overwatch. ME/SA are not badly represented in Overwatch at all, while there ARE cultures that aren't represented at all (South East Asia for instance) and just because she doesn't speak Hindi, Telugu or Urdu doesn't make Symmetra a "vague brown stereotype", and I also feel like it's kind of an insult to Anjali Bhimani as a performer for the character to imply that this is the case.

 

[patapuf]

I'm a brown POC myself and I surround myself with a lot of brown people in my daily life. Navigating my life in the US makes it really difficult for me to see the type of media that people that live in my native country would otherwise. I constantly bring up the soft power of Japan, Western Europe, and the behemoth that is the USA up because of this. I'm not readily exposed to media that portrays people like me non-stereotypically and it would be nice to see brown POC evolve from magical desert folk into something else entirely. Brown desert folk can continue to exist in fantasy settings, sure, but there could be more than just that.

Right, this i understand.

I was more hung up on the Gerudo somehow being a "bastardisation" of middle eastern culture merely because of borrowed imagery.

 

[Macchiato]

Is it really that difficult to see how the Gerudo are treated more like the Rito, Gorons, and Zora than they are the Hylians and Sheikah?

Yeah, tbh it is. The only way that it could be possibly construed is that the 4 champions besides Link are from each race accept Sheikah, but Link is a Champion and also Hylian, and the Sheikah are more researchers rather than fighters.

Also I'd venture to say the Rito and Gorons and Zora aren't really treated as "non-human" in anything but appearance and abilities.

This is just a massive reach.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

I'm a brown POC myself and I surround myself with a lot of brown people in my daily life. Navigating my life in the US makes it really difficult for me to see the type of media that people that live in my native country would otherwise. I constantly bring up the soft power of Japan, Western Europe, and the behemoth that is the USA up because of this. I'm not readily exposed to media that portrays people like me non-stereotypically and it would be nice to see brown POC evolve from magical desert folk into something else entirely. Brown desert folk can continue to exist in fantasy settings, sure, but there could be more than just that.

So your solution would be what, make them a new kind of animal tribe like the zora and ruto? Gerudo are their own thing with long noses, green eyes and red hair. They dont even look like any discernable human race.
Shit, they only have one man born every hundred years or whatever, which is just something completely different and not comparable to reality in any sense.

Its relateable in real world biology for desert dwelling people to have darker skin, so im wondering what your solution really would be if humans (or close to human) lived in such an environment?

 

[Metal B]

Isn't it odd to you how one of the only times Brown people are represented in gaming is to depict stereotypes of said cultures?

Why? Your skill color tells a lot about the environment, your ancestors have to life in for a long period of time. So if you have people, who life in the desert for generations, they will adapt to the sun. Also the middle-east culture was not only able to survive in one of the worst condition on earth, but also create big empires and advancement in science and culture. Why shouldn't authors not use there concepts as guidelines in creating fictive deserts based races and societies?

Also, of course the gerudo were represented as thieves. Their king was the literal incarnation of evil. No matter how low key ganondorf tries to be about that evil stuff with the kingdom of hyrule, some of that bad joo joo is gonna show up and turn peeps off. lol.

What i really loved about the Gerudo in BotW, is their understanding about their connection to Ganondorf. Urbosa tells Link about the legend, that Ganon was once a Gerudo. This background makes them feel even more responsible to help fight him then any other race in Hyrule. As a german i can completely understand and highly respect this line of thinking.

 

[Shadoken]

Representation in video games is, slowly, improving, but the industry still seems to have a particularly tough time with Middle Eastern and South Asian countries. Even Overwatch, which features one of the most diverse roster lineups in gaming history, struggles when it comes to Symmetra, an Indian hero who, oddly, never speaks what should be her native language.

What exactly is wrong with this? There are many people here in Indian cities( Especially the South ) who only speak English and can barely speak their native language. Its because there are so many languages in India that many people converse almost entirely in English , since not everyone might be fluent in a common regional language. I feel like these guys just make points based on whatever they assume.

 

[Blues1990]

The voice actor choices are really odd...

Torbjörn's voice actor isn't even Swedish!

Is Reinhardt's voice actor German? I don't hear him speak German at all in the game!

So odd.

TL;DR - Vocal Performance > Authenticity.

The developers did brought this up during a GDC panel, where they did try their best with securing voice actors/actresses that can speak dual languages of the character. Ultimately, they would rather find a voice actor/actress that can sell the performance and get the guttural of the character, rather than making sure Torbjorn's voice actor is Sweedish and his ‘ch’ often becomes ‘sh’.

In the case for Reinhardt's voice actor, he admitted that Rein's mannerisms and vocal quirks are heavily inspired by his German father, who was a "serious man but was capable of great joy and had a silly side that most never saw". He basically taken his own experiences of his pop and incorporated into the character, which I honestly think is pretty cool. (And it's not like Reinhardt is deprived. He says "Wonderful" & "This is awesome!" in German, though this only happens in the voting menu post-game.)

Junkrat's voice actor (Christopher L. Parson) isn't even from Australia, and I'm pretty sure that Mandarin isn't his second language. But he is able to convey the strange, wonderful bundle of wiry muscle and explosives that is the character at the core, and Junkrat does say a number of Australian slang in his dialogue.

 

[ZiZ]

This weird 1001 Arabian Nights theme that people immediately think of when they think middle eastern culture is off-putting. The middle east is huge, it has some of the oldest civilizations, it was the bridge between the east and the west. There are forests, beaches and snowy mountains in the middle east. There were hundreds of cultures.

 

[sephi22]

Garbage mic.com and their bullshit nontroversy peddling again. Alongside such hits as 'Injustice 2 is sexist because all the females are low tier' and 'SF is racist coz evil palette swaps have darker skin'. I wish this clickbait would be banned here, but thisisneogaf.gif

" Symmetra, an Indian hero who, oddly, never speaks what should be her native language."
It's almost like there are young people in India, especially upper middle class ones in metropolitan cities that exclusively speak English, rather than their regional tongue. It could also be that in a country with many religions and hundreds of languages, you could have kids, Christian or otherwise, that grew up in English speaking households. It's not like English is one of the official languages of India or anything.

Please speak about Iranian representation if you'd like Rye Khosravi. Let the Indians speak for themselves. Symmetra is one of the best Indian characters in recent memory, if not ever. She doesn't need to be a walking stereotype like Dhalsim or some shit. "Oh look I'm symmetra I speak Hindi and eat curry". You can pick up on her accent while she speaks and she has traditional Indian dances in her emotes.

Can't speak about Zelda and the ME experience coz I'm not ME and haven't played Zelda.

 

[Metal B]

What exactly is wrong with this? There are many people here in Indian cities( Especially the South ) who only speak English and can barely speak their native language. Its because there are so many languages in India that many people converse almost entirely in English , since not everyone might be fluent in a common regional language. I feel like these guys just make points based on whatever they assume.

You could say, he has a stereotypical view of India, since he believes all Indian speak only Indian.

 

[Red Arremer]

What exactly is wrong with this? There are many people here in Indian cities( Especially the South ) who only speak English and can barely speak their native language. Its because there are so many languages in India that many people converse almost entirely in English , since not everyone might be fluent in a common regional language. I feel like these guys just make points based on whatever they assume.

Out of curiosity, do you know if that is the case in Hyderabad?

 

[Shadoken]

Out of curiosity, do you know if that is the case in Hyderabad?

Yes very true. I have many friends from there who can barely speak their native tongue. You grow up in an English medium school and everything you are taught is in English. At best you would know enough of you native language just to do basic stuff like call the cab or buy groceries.

But even most Cab drivers and people are grocery stores would know English , So unless you want to go to the village for some odd reason ( Which most city dwellers rarely do ) There really is not much reason to learn your native language.

You could say, he has a stereotypical view of India, since he believes all Indian speak only Indian.

Lmao... Well thats one way to write an article.

Lets call out game devs for their stereotypical portrayal of a certain group of people , by saying that they arent the same as OUR Stereotypical view of the people.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes very true. I have many friends from there who can barely speak their native tongue. You grow up in an English medium school and everything you are taught is in English. At best you would know enough of you native language just to do basic stuff like call the cab or buy groceries.

But even most Cab drivers and people are grocery stores would know English , So unless you want to go to the village for some odd reason ( Which most city dwellers rarely do ) There really is not much reason to learn your native language.

Thanks for the response.
That makes Symmetra not speaking anything but English even more plausible, given the fact she was taken by Vishkar when she was very small and raised to be an architect and representative of the corporation.

 

[psychowave]

Garbage mic.com and their bullshit nontroversy peddling again. Alongside such hits as 'Injustice 2 is sexist because all the females are low tier' and 'SF is racist coz evil palette swaps have darker skin'. I wish this clickbait would be banned here, but thisisneogaf.gif

Mic.com didn't invent criticism of making every evil character dark-skinned, I've seen that criticism leveled at Disney and cartoons in general for decades. Too bad video games are so immature a medium that they can't handle this level of basic criticism.

Also not every news you disagree with are clickbait.

 

[GhostTrick]

This weird 1001 Arabian Nights theme that people immediately think of when they think middle eastern culture is off-putting. The middle east is huge, it has some of the oldest civilizations, it was the bridge between the east and the west. There are forests, beaches and snowy mountains in the middle east. There were hundreds of cultures.

Yeah speaking of which...They should also stop with the "arabian culture = middle east". Cause there's a whole lot of countries in Maghreb too.