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[IrrelevantNotch]

So you're agreeing with me that his motivations are incredibly stupid?

Yep, good thing he didn't merge with Groose, then we wouldn't get these awesome tales of greed... and arrogance!

 

[EmCeeGramr]

You are fucking hopeless.

EDIT: Merging with Groose over "his dark feelings" or "unrequited love" would have been the dumbest bullshit that sounds like the plot for XxXSephitroth420XxX's Naruto fanfiction. Groose had already gotten over that long before the Demise fight. That was the whole point of his character arc. Having him fall to teenage wangst and thus be the origin of one of the most powerful beings in the Zelda universe is as dumb as Darth Vader's origin being the result of a whiny teenager not trusting in space-age obstetrics.

 

[nckillthegrimace]

Your post is funny because it infers any Zelda villian has a logical reason for being evil.

edit: Oh, nevermind, it seems you've devised your own reason for Ganondorfs motives. Unsupported by any official sources.

Admittedly, it has been a long time since I've played Wind Waker, but I think I have it right. In Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf wants power and gets it. In Wind Waker, Ganondorf just wants Hyrule back. Before the final battle, he even explicitly states that he will not harm Link or Zelda; he just needs to use their pieces of the Triforce to make his wish. So he goes from someone who plunges the world into darkness to a guy who wants Hyrule back and won't even harm the reincarnation of the kid who made his whole scheme necessary to begin with. That's a pretty big shift, and if that doesn't speak to some sort of weariness, then I don't know what does. Certainly both include some degree of desire to have something that isn't his, but there's a big difference between wanting something because someone else has it and wanting something because it doesn't exist anymore and you miss it.

 

[Lunar15]

And either way, having no motivation is better than shoehorning some random goofy (but extremely loveable) character into his backstory. Whoever referenced the star wars prequels was dead-on.

Also, did anyone else notice that this game was pretty much The Minish Cap, story wise?

1. Link and Zelda are childhood friends

2. There's a bazaar in the town

3. Semi-Flamboyant villian who is not Ganondorf

4. Zelda's father is present in the game, and he sends link out to help her

5. The "origin story" of one the game's staples. TMC: Link's hat, SS: Master Sword (and everything else lols)

6. You forge an important sword used later on in other games

I mean, of course this makes sense, they both had the same director. But you can definitely feel the overtones from The Minish Cap in SS's story.

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

You are fucking hopeless.

EDIT: Merging with Groose over "his dark feelings" or "unrequited love" would have been the dumbest bullshit that sounds like the plot for XxXSephitroth420XxX's Naruto fanfiction. Groose had already gotten over that long before the Demise fight. That was the whole point of his character arc. Having him fall to teenage wangst and thus be the origin of one of the most powerful beings in the Zelda universe is as dumb as Darth Vader's origin being the result of a whiny teenager not trusting in space-age obstetrics.

Ahahahaha. Totally dude. Can't have love stories getting in the way of our awesome greed stories... and arrogance!

Admittedly, it has been a long time since I've played Wind Waker, but I think I have it right. In Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf wants power and gets it. In Wind Waker, Ganondorf just wants Hyrule back. Before the final battle, he even explicitly states that he will not harm Link or Zelda; he just needs to use their pieces of the Triforce to make his wish. So he goes from someone who plunges the world into darkness to a guy who wants Hyrule back and won't even harm the reincarnation of the kid who made his whole scheme necessary to begin with. That's a pretty big shift, and if that doesn't speak to some sort of weariness, then I don't know what does. Certainly both include some degree of desire to have something that isn't his, but there's a big difference between wanting something because someone else has it and wanting something because it doesn't exist anymore and you miss it.

Then why did I stab my sword into his head at the end of the game?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Ahahahaha. Totally dude. Can't have love stories getting in the way of our awesome greed stories... and arrogance!

What the hell are you even talking about? Are you literally insane?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

"A character is consumed by hubris and destroyed because they are too irrational to see their own downfall coming."

IrrelevantNotch: WHAT IS THIS RIDICULOUS NON-MOTIVE BULLSHIT, WHERE IS THE TEENAGE LOVE DRAMA RESULTING IN ANIME POWERUPS

 

[nckillthegrimace]

Then why did I stab my sword into his head at the end of the game?

He says all of that stuff about sparing you before the king totally ruins his plan forever. Then he attacks you in a rage and you stab him in the face.

 

[Gummb]

I think that would have ruined Groose's character arc and retroactively destroyed Ganondorf's. Making Ganondorf into Groose is like some Kojima-level retcon bullshit. No, it's worse. It's like George Lucas explaining Darth Vader and Boba Fett with the Star Wars prequels. In this proposed version of events, instead of being the wicked man from the desert who grew weary because he's the only constant in an unending cycle of legend, he would be a guy who felt bad because a girl didn't like him enough and then a magic bad man ate him.

Hey Ganondorf, why did you plunge the world into unending darkness and suffering?

Because Link made fun of my hair.

I agree, and I also agree with your previous post.

I like you! <3

[EDIT] it's been a while since I reloaded this page, lol

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

He says all of that stuff about sparing you before the king totally ruins his plan forever. Then he attacks you in a rage and you stab him in the face.

Wait. So an old man ruins his plans, and in retaliation he decides to harm an eleven year old boy? And why are his plans ruined forever, couldn't he just reassemble the triforce?

 

[Professor Beef]

Wait. So an old man ruins his plans, and in retaliation he decides to harm an eleven year old boy?

...Are you actually this dense, or is it an act?

EDIT: He can't just reassemble the Triforce because the pieces went away a la DBZ and the dragonballs.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

It would have been way cooler if instead of a simple timeless story that all ages and cultures can understand, like a boy with a destiny chasing after a girl (what is this, preschool? why would he chase after her, that's ridiculous and makes no sense), Skyward Sword had been about Link cutting himself out of guilt over Zelda's death and the blood merges with Demise and then Dark Link is formed and Dark Link is wearing some sweet Nomura fashion and they have a fight to the death where they both die but their chi energy opens up a portal to the Twilight Realm and god fucking damn it

Wait. So an old man ruins his plans, and in retaliation he decides to harm an eleven year old boy?

If you remember, the king wished for "a future" for Tetra and Link and for Hyrule to forever be flooded. Right before Ganondorf attacks you, he even says something like "Well we'll see how much your precious Triforce is really worth!" because he's trying to kill you (and prevent the king's wish from happening) out of spite over losing his own wish.

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

...Are you actually this dense, or is it an act?

EDIT: He can't just reassemble the Triforce because the pieces went away a la DBZ and the dragonballs.

You mean the dragonballs that were constantly reassembled throughout the shows series? Ah yes, how could I be so dumb.

If you remember, the king wished for "a future" for Tetra and Link and for Hyrule to forever be flooded. Right before Ganondorf attacks you, he even says something like "Well we'll see how much your precious Triforce is really worth!" because he's trying to kill you (and prevent the king's wish from happening) out of spite over losing his own wish.

I read the ending dialogue, he doesn't say anything about Hyrule being flooded forever. Just that it be flooded. Ganondorf retaliates to the kings actions by trying to kill an eleven year old. This is stupid, but, oh wait -- arrogance. Now its not stupid, I guess.

 

[Gummb]

"A character is consumed by hubris and destroyed because they are too irrational to see their own downfall coming."

IrrelevantNotch: WHAT IS THIS RIDICULOUS NON-MOTIVE BULLSHIT, WHERE IS THE TEENAGE LOVE DRAMA RESULTING IN ANIME POWERUPS

damn, I like you too

 

[EmCeeGramr]

You mean the dragonballs that were constantly reassembled throughout the shows series? Ah yes, how could I be so dumb.

you're now arguing that... okay I'm not even sure what you're arguing, but to follow your line of logic over the last page, it's that zelda villains never have motivations, and then that simple motivations are ridiculous and bad by default, and eventually this ends up with "ganondorf can't have motivations because of how dragonballs work in the cartoon series dragonball"

I read the ending dialogue, he doesn't say anything about Hyrule being flooded forever. Just that it be flooded. Ganondorf retaliates to the kings actions by trying to kill an eleven year old. This is stupid, but, oh wait -- arrogance. Now its cool again.

How the hell does Ganondorf being evil somehow invalidate his character? Are you even reading what you're typing?

 

[nckillthegrimace]

Instructor Owlan looks like Ansem so Nintendo might as well go whole hog and copy the rest of Nomura's design sensibilities.

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

you're now arguing that... okay I'm not even sure what you're arguing, but to follow your line of logic over the last page, it's that zelda villains never have motivations, and then that simple motivations are ridiculous and bad by default, and eventually this ends up with "ganondorf can't have motivations because of how dragonballs work in the cartoon series dragonball"

You're a weird guy, you know that? You seem to have superimposed this argument onto me so that you could rant about anime or whatever. All I said was that their motivations were/are stupid, and they are. You can argue against that if you want, or you can continue ranting against your made-up easily defeatable, internet opponent

 

[Professor Beef]

I read the ending dialogue, he doesn't say anything about Hyrule being flooded forever. Just that it be flooded. Ganondorf retaliates to the kings actions by trying to kill an eleven year old. This is stupid, but, oh wait -- arrogance. Now its not stupid, I guess.

...WHAT THE HELL AM I READING

 

[EmCeeGramr]

You're a weird guy, you know that? You seem to have superimposed this argument onto me so that you could rant about anime or whatever. All I said was that their motivations were/are stupid, and they are. You can argue against that if you want, or you can continue ranting against your made-up easily defeatable, internet opponent

I think the irony meter just fucking exploded.

You said that they didn't have motivations, and when motives were prevented you said "that's stupid because it is," with no argument at all, and started pretending that I worshiped those motives when all I did was say that they were there. Then you went on about how a villain can't have motivations if they do irrational or evil things, and tried to somehow use the rules of an anime to prove that.

 

[Gummb]

you're now arguing that... okay I'm not even sure what you're arguing, but to follow your line of logic over the last page, it's that zelda villains never have motivations, and then that simple motivations are ridiculous and bad by default, and eventually this ends up with "ganondorf can't have motivations because of how dragonballs work in the cartoon series dragonball"



How the hell does Ganondorf being evil somehow invalidate his character? Are you even reading what you're typing?

Don't forget that this is all wrapped up in the argument that Ganondorf's true motivation should be because the original Link was best friends with Zelda.

0_0

Now it makes sense why Ganondorf always steals Zelda away! He wasn't looking for the Triforce at all, he just wanted more time with Zelda and another opportunity to kill Link!

GROOOOOOSEE!! you bastard!

*goes to find mindblown.gif*

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

I think the irony meter just fucking exploded.

You said that they didn't have motivations, and when motives were prevented you said "that's stupid because it is," with no argument at all, and started pretending that I worshiped those motives when all I did was say that they were there.

Oh, I did huh? Well then why don't you quote the post where I said that.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Oh, I did huh? Well then why don't you quote the post where I said that.

Your post is funny because it infers any Zelda villian has a logical reason for being evil.

edit: Oh, nevermind, it seems you've devised your own reasons for Ganondorfs motives. Unsupported by any official sources.

OOPS

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

OOPS

Its funny because you can't actually read properly.

edit. I'll give you a hint. It starts with an L.

edit 2. Fuck I wish I could avatar quote.

 

[mdtauk]

The King actually wished for Hyrule to be washed away and for Link and Zelda to have a future, and to find their own land to settle in.

Its a way to wash away the past, its legacy and baggage. The Triforce is no more, and the land Tetra and Link founded is where Spirit Tracks takes place.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Okay, you are definitely trolling at this point. This, the necro-bump to troll the other thread. Not bothering with you anymore, when it's this obvious it's not even funny.

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

Okay, you are definitely trolling at this point. This, the necro-bump to troll the other thread. Not bothering with you anymore, when it's this obvious it's not even funny.

Translation: I lost. boo ho

 

[rpmurphy]

OOPS

It's really pointless to argue with him when the only thing he does is to read the first part of a sentence and respond to only that.

 

[Gummb]

It's ok guys, he's an irrelevant notch.

doh...

 

[Laughing Banana]

I think the real villains here is the old gods who created Triforce to begin with. Creating an object that can give anything and everything possible for the sake of "hope"? Pssshhhh. An object with that kind of power WILL undoubtedly create chaos and bloodshed amongst those wishing to obtain its power.

And giving the Triforce of Power to Ganondorf as some sort of a twisted, sick divine "prank"?

I can see that if one day they ever decide to end the Legend of Zelda series (yeah right, but bear with me a bit), then the final story should be Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf seeking to destroy the seemingly inescapable perpetual motion of destiny that bound them together. Destroying Triforce, even, or perhaps destroying Triforce's creators O_O

Just a random thought.

Oh, and Skyward Sword's Link is confirmed to be the most badass and most able swordsman of all Link--I mean, for the embodiment of evil itself praising him "You've fought unlike any demon or man I've ever seen".... that's just incredibly badass.

 

[Fat Goron]

>>>>> lame figure skating

Now I want Ghirahim to dance with Bayonetta.... =(

 

[mdtauk]

And giving the Triforce of Power to Ganondorf as some sort of a twisted, sick divine "prank"?

You do realise the Gods did not give him the Triforce of Power. When Link went back in time at the end of Ocarina of Time, the Triforce had separated already, that is why Link and Zelda both had pieces of the Triforce in Twilight Princess.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Finished the game. Nintendo sure are terrible story-tellers, Groose was a highlight but he wasn't particularly anything special, just an actual realistically emotional character in a world of cardboard cutouts.

Fi was just not a character for the entire game long, despite being there at all times as your companion, she and Link never share any laughs or moments of reflection. And then at the end you're supposed to feel bad about this void of personality sleeping forever? Oh no, who will be there to tell me what percentage likelyhood that this Boss Door has a fucking boss behind it. To think the last game had a genuinely great character like Midna is crazy.

Theres so much shit that the game never does anything with either. Like the birds, what you'd assume are the games entire motif, are just there. You get one paired up with you mystically from a certain age, where do they come from, why is Link's 'the best most awesome crimson one'? Outside of learning some spin-attack (unless you can do this attack 10 times Link, I will somehow force you to unlearn it), to fuck up some whale parasites, your trusty steed you've been mates with forever never does anything of note in the game.

Even worse of course is the suggestion at the end that Link and Zelda create Hyrule down on the surface. What does this mean for all future Link and Zelda re-incarnations? The Legend of Incest.

 

[Chao]

Finished the game. Nintendo sure are terrible story-tellers, Groose was a highlight but he wasn't particularly anything special, just an actual realistically emotional character in a world of cardboard cutouts.

Fi was just not a character for the entire game long, despite being there at all times as your companion, she and Link never share any laughs or moments of reflection. And then at the end you're supposed to feel bad about this void of personality sleeping forever? Oh no, who will be there to tell me what percentage likelyhood that this Boss Door has a fucking boss behind it. To think the last game had a genuinely great character like Midna is crazy.

Theres so much shit that the game never does anything with either. Like the birds, what you'd assume are the games entire motif, are just there. You get one paired up with you mystically from a certain age, where do they come from, why is Link's 'the best most awesome crimson one'? Outside of learning some spin-attack (unless you can do this attack 10 times Link, I will somehow force you to unlearn it), to fuck up some whale parasites, your trusty steed you've been mates with forever never does anything of note in the game.

Even worse of course is the suggestion at the end that Link and Zelda create Hyrule down on the surface. What does this mean for all future Link and Zelda re-incarnations? The Legend of Incest.

Totally agreed. They are totally incapable of writing a story. As you said, they introduce so much stuff and then they do absolutely nothing with it for the rest of the game (birds, Zelda/Link romance, Groose's friends, The academy, the water race I don't even remember their name, Grahim...) . In fact, there's only like 2 or 3 instances in the whole game where the story progresses: the slow ass beginning, a few hours later and somewhere near the end.

 

[Anth0ny]

Finished the game. Nintendo sure are terrible story-tellers, Groose was a highlight but he wasn't particularly anything special, just an actual realistically emotional character in a world of cardboard cutouts.

So true. I love how everyone is raving over Groose. I guess that's what happens when you have a character with an arc, relative to every other boring ass character.

Majora's Mask, on the other hand...

 

[Tuck]

Yes, and those reasons are ridiculous.

His motivations, mentioned in the Wind Waker, were a lot better than 'Random evil demon reborn into every Zelda villain just cause.' or 'Groose can't get over the fact that Zelda likes Link better.'

Groose being evil would have been fucking stupid. Fan-fiction levels of bad.

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

Finished the game. Nintendo sure are terrible story-tellers, Groose was a highlight but he wasn't particularly anything special, just an actual realistically emotional character in a world of cardboard cutouts.

I'd like to disagree for 30 points.

 

[Lunar15]

Oh hey, got another one: The love letter quest reminded me of Link's Awakening when you have to bring the love letter from the Goat to Mr. Write.

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

His motivations, mentioned in the Wind Waker, were a lot better than 'Random evil demon reborn into every Zelda villain just cause.' or 'Groose can't get over the fact that Zelda likes Link better.'

Groose being evil would have been fucking stupid. Fan-fiction levels of bad.

I don't know. If he's the same Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time that would mean by the beginning of the game he would be hundreds if not thousands of years old. You'd think time might weather him a little, but nope, can't get ever my windy childhood.

And about Groose, I think he's a genuinely great character, not just when compared to the characters that surround him. He's just so... groostifying.

edit- Why does everyone think I want Groose to be evil? I just wanted him to be unwillingly absorbed into Demise's being.

 

[RPGCrazied]

Demise looks like Akuma from Street Fighter to me, lol.

Anyways, I beat the game with 45hours. Love th scene at the end with the Master Sword being put in the pedestal. Makes you want to play OoT. Also, I thought Gannodorf was suppose to get a mention or at least a clue how he fits in the time line? Don't think I caught that if they did.

 

[Caelus]

Silent Realm is like the Dark World, it's a parallel world of Hyrule and houses the Triforce. I think the Silent Realm is the Sacred Realm.

 

[Caelus]

Majora's Mask, on the other hand...

To be honest, the only characters I felt emotional towards in MM were Skull Kid's victims and Skull Kid himself. I'm not that far- only the third dungeon- so maybe I haven't met a lot of characters, but the people in Clock Town are like Skyloft in which they have a lot of personality.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Demise looks like Akuma from Street Fighter to me, lol.

Anyways, I beat the game with 45hours. Love th scene at the end with the Master Sword being put in the pedestal. Makes you want to play OoT. Also, I thought Gannodorf was suppose to get a mention or at least a clue how he fits in the time line? Don't think I caught that if they did.

I thought of Akuma the second I saw him. Any way. Demise curses your bloodline by telling you his hatred will live on forever. "An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind." So that's obviously Ganon. Why they didn't just call him Ganon is pretty dumb since there was zero point outside of change for changes sake. If I start calling milk lemonade, it's still just milk.

Loved the game though. If they had cut out 10 or so hours of fluff it would have been my favorite Zelda game. Fuck that back tracking leading to dungeon four.

 

[jonno394]

Well, everything that came out of this game in regards to the story I can dig.

I always liked the line in Twilight Princess about Ganondorf having the power of the triforce by some divine prank. Knowing now that he has some semblance of Demise in his character, it makes sense why he received it as well as why he, Link and Zelda will always have their destines intertwined. It slightly does away with the threat Ganondorf made in OOT about the descendants of Link and Zelda as we now know their bond was created long before then.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

I wish Demise didn't have such a lame name. I'm glad that we have an origin for Ganondorf now though, the multiple Ganon theory is basically confirmed.

 

[Caelus]

I thought of Akuma the second I saw him. Any way. Demise curses your bloodline by telling you his hatred will live on forever. "An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind." So that's obviously Ganon. Why they didn't just call him Ganon is pretty dumb since there was zero point outside of change for changes sake. If I start calling milk lemonade, it's still just milk.

Other villans like Malladus, Bellum or any other villan intertwined with Link and Zelda could be attributed to this curse. Also I don't think actively referencing the name of this reincarnation would have made for good dialogue.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

Other villans like Malladus, Bellum or any other villan intertwined with Link and Zelda could be attributed to this curse. Also I don't think actively referencing the name of this reincarnation would have made for good dialogue.

It makes much more sense for it to be Ganondorf. Hell, the same Link that fought Bellum also fought Ganondorf.

 

[jonno394]

Other villans like Malladus, Bellum or any other villan intertwined with Link and Zelda could be attributed to this curse. Also I don't think actively referencing the name of this reincarnation would have made for good dialogue.

Yes, in SS it was said that Demise was the source of all monsters, so the hatred in characters like Vaati can also be attributed to him.

 

[Caelus]

It makes much more sense for it to be Ganondorf. Hell, the same Link that fought Bellum also fought Ganondorf.

I also think it's obvious that it's Ganondorf, since Ganondorf is always the villan when Link and Zelda are together (except for ST, but Zelda was technically dead ) But it would be cool if they used that to explain other villans as well.

Demise is basically the Satan of the Zelda world.

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

To be honest, the only characters I felt emotional towards in MM were Skull Kid's victims and Skull Kid himself. I'm not that far- only the third dungeon- so maybe I haven't met a lot of characters, but the people in Clock Town are like Skyloft in which they have a lot of personality.

Uh...Isn't there only like 4 dungeons in Majoras Mask?

 

[Caelus]

Uh...Isn't there only like 4 dungeons in Majoras Mask?

Yes. But I'm literally standing at the entrance of the third dungeon, I haven't completed it. And I haven't done all of the sidequests, although I met all the characters.