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Drama Zoe Quinn #meToo / Alec Holowka suicide -- Update: Article questions ZQ's account of events (link in OP)

Clear

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Feb 2, 2009
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It's insane how fragile these people act. I'm a man and I've been working in games for a long time. I've dealt with *much* worse than either Scott or Albertine are detailing here, and probably just about everyone in the industry has. Everything they're describing is fairly standard interpersonal drama that comes from working on a project for a long time with a small team.

Was Alec difficult to work with sometimes? I don't know, maybe. Scott and Albertine seem to think so, and that's fair enough, I guess. But it's also none of my business. It's no one's business except theirs. I've dealt with tons of difficult coworkers. To other people, I've probably *been* that difficult coworker. I do my best, but I'm not perfect, and no one is. We're all human. We all get frustrated and have personality clashes sometimes.

One thing that I think is telling about Zoe, Scott, and Albertine's accounts is that they all reference Alec getting frustrated with them. They each attempt to use this as a cudgel, as if him being frustrated with them indicates some sort of huge, glaring character flaw on his part. Not one of them turns that lens inward and wonders if maybe his frustration was valid, and what *they* could have done. Ironically, they're attacking him for expressing his own feelings of frustration... in their own essays expressing their frustration.

Even taking these accounts entirely at face value, the worst thing Benson and Watson can level at Holowka is that he was moody, occasionally aloof, and occasionally rude (and in Benson's case, he seems frustrated that Alec pushed him to work almost-standard hour work days, which is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard). Watson alleges that he made some kind of romantic advance on her and then stopped when she told him not to. I'm not saying these are good qualities. I'm sure Holowka was no saint; that much, I believe. But they're not crimes, either. If anything, they're fairly mundane. Many of these things, in one form or another, are probably things they themselves have done to others.

If the mood struck me, I could write similar petty diatribes about lots of my old bosses and coworkers (many of whom have been women, for whatever that's worth). I'm not going to, because I'm an adult, I handled my own shit, and I recognize that other people have their own problems and they don't need to hear about my interpersonal drama from years ago. I also recognize that there are two sides to every story, and that even my old coworkers who annoyed me don't deserve to have their every failing blasted onto the internet for total strangers to see.

I'd never heard of a lot of these people before this, so I don't particularly have a dog in this fight. I'd like to think I've approached it with an open mind. But every single time one of them has written more on the subject, I've become less and less convinced that they're victims. They don't sound brave or beaten-down. They sound entitled. I wish them all the best. I get that they're probably dealing with a lot of heavy shit right now, and that there are also a lot of assholes on the internet who want to attack them for it. That's not okay. But neither is enabling them.
This. So fucking much.

The absence of anything close to reflection/recognition of responsibility for his own feelings and actions is what made Benson's screed so insufferable. It was just heaping blame on a dead man for everything, although quite obviously and specifically the derailment of their own "career".

Its something you see a lot in these sort of things, the "victim" laying the blame for every subsequent career misfortune at the door of the alleged abuser, then asserting that they have no ulterior motive but #metoo solidarity in airing this dirty laundry years after the fact. It seems to me they make a stronger case for them being the one enacting a vendetta than their victimizer.
 

Rya.Reisender

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It's insane how fragile these people act. I'm a man and I've been working in games for a long time.
Yeah, I feel like that's how many game devs including me feel about all of this.

I could also tell plenty of stories about very talented but also crazy developers I've worked together with. I'd say about 80% of the devs I considered talented enough to work with had at least one major character flaw. Hell, even I'd admit I've got major personality flaws myself.

But you don't see me go around every time one of the devs get accused of something and say "Oh yeah, he's pretty crazy, those accussations are probably true". Because that's kind of nonsensical to me.

There's no perfect human and I'm sure at least most of you if not all are aware of at least one person that doesn't like you and could potentially talk negatively about you. That really doesn't mean anything.

Also most of the time even the accusations I'm reading are not even all that bad even if they were true. Like the "He didn't want to work together/talk with me anymore after I denied his advances". Certainly that's a pretty shitty situation, but you can also look at it from the other viewpoint: "Do you want to work together with someone you love, but that doesn't return the feelings?"

People fight and things happen not everybody is happy with, all the time. Why does something so normal, have to turn into a big drama and even pushes someone to suicide?
 

Scopa

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Oct 27, 2017
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Every human on Earth that has been employed and has age and experience has worked with someone they thought was an arsehole at some point. It isn’t limited to game dev or tech. It isn’t new. It isn’t unique. It isn’t special.

Except of course of the special snowflake variety.
 

ellias

Banned
Sep 12, 2019
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blah blah blah

So either Zoe Quinn, Watson, Benson, and for that matter Holowka's own family are lying as part of a massive feminazi/SJW conspiracy and just about every gaming website on the planet is in on it, or maybe, just maybe, the allegations are at least partially true.

blah blah blah
Remember a few years ago when 20+ articles decrying the 'white male gamer' came out from practically every gaming 'journalism' website all within 2 days? That makes this option, where the industry is still a far left echo chamber who circle the wagons when one of their own is called out, the most likely scenario. Zoe Quinn is an ugly (we've all seen the nudes, with some of us throwing up afterwards) evil, lying, cunty bitch, and anybody who ever defends her, in any way shape or form, is the most pathetic beta cuck soy fucknut this planet has ever seen.
 

Teslerum

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Nov 29, 2018
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Every human on Earth that has been employed and has age and experience has worked with someone they thought was an arsehole at some point. It isn’t limited to game dev or tech. It isn’t new. It isn’t unique. It isn’t special.

Except of course of the special snowflake variety.
Adding to that that every human was a bit of an arsehole themselves at times. Oftentimes to a point where you call each other *bad words *gasp*. And then you work together the next week because you got over it.

Of course, self-reflection and overcoming differences is a hard thing indeed.
 
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MagnesG

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Probably weren't ready enough to even properly survive in the market without being mentally scarred. Or any kinds of jobs really. Maybe when started to work on their own or being a boss themselves would they understand, there's no sunshine in a working team. You've got to be a bitch like normal person sometimes, to stay sane.
 

Knivess

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Sep 10, 2019
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Yeah, I feel like that's how many game devs including me feel about all of this.

I could also tell plenty of stories about very talented but also crazy developers I've worked together with. I'd say about 80% of the devs I considered talented enough to work with had at least one major character flaw. Hell, even I'd admit I've got major personality flaws myself.

But you don't see me go around every time one of the devs get accused of something and say "Oh yeah, he's pretty crazy, those accussations are probably true". Because that's kind of nonsensical to me.

There's no perfect human and I'm sure at least most of you if not all are aware of at least one person that doesn't like you and could potentially talk negatively about you. That really doesn't mean anything.

Also most of the time even the accusations I'm reading are not even all that bad even if they were true. Like the "He didn't want to work together/talk with me anymore after I denied his advances". Certainly that's a pretty shitty situation, but you can also look at it from the other viewpoint: "Do you want to work together with someone you love, but that doesn't return the feelings?"

People fight and things happen not everybody is happy with, all the time. Why does something so normal, have to turn into a big drama and even pushes someone to suicide?
It's good to know their accounts aren't representative of most in game development. I don't work in the games industry and these repeated "Woe is me" stories we keep getting from guys like this risk people losing respect for the industry as a whole. I can't even begin to explain how the quivering, self-pitying post Benson made would go down in my industry. This is the real world, life can be tough but as long as people aren't actually committing crimes or breaking employment laws then you just gotta learn to deal with it as an adult.
 

TLZ

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Every human on Earth that has been employed and has age and experience has worked with someone they thought was an arsehole at some point. It isn’t limited to game dev or tech. It isn’t new. It isn’t unique. It isn’t special.

Except of course of the special snowflake variety.
Every single company I worked in had many assholes and jerks. All of them except one had asshole backstabbing bosses and colleagues. Work turns people into cunts.
 

DeepEnigma

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Dec 3, 2013
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This new game the expanded team was working on sounds like it could have been really good, it's too bad they had such poor communication and started throwing themselves under the buss for petty grievances they kept bottled up for a long time. I don't think this project will ever be continued even if they wanted it to be, even from their stories meant to paint him in a bad light, Alec seems the most important to the team being able to actually code and all and being a really talented composer.



I wouldn't say everyone , but there are names that keep popping up constantly who live in the same town as her and constantly promote her grifts but never hold her accountable. Recently found this article about her failed kickstarter game which is never happening ( she recently removed the game from her bio) . They all promoted the game but no one wrote an article how or why the production of this game fell appart.


Same with Crash Override Network (CON). They all heaped praise on it so Quinn can get donations , but they never followed up on the leaked chat logs, how it fell apart, how all the employees started backstabbing each other and forming cliques within cliques. Since no journalist wrote about it , this was all I could find

Ironic that nobody, nobody is writing articles about this Kickstarter scam. Bunch of posers in the "media".
 
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Hecaton117

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After anonymous allegations were made against Alexis Kennedy (Cultist Simulator) his fiance Lottie Bevan (Cultist Simulator) put up an article about cancel culture http://weatherfactory.biz/blood-sport-call-out-culture-from-the-other-side/

I'd consider this article pretty relevant to the current topic considering how it deals with allegations that spread like wildfire through Twitter and its effects. I think this article is good enough that it could probably use its own thread but I'll quote some relevant parts here.

Call-outs are a Catch-22 said:
Imagine someone says you did something bad on Twitter. It’s being retweeted left, right and centre, lots of people are joining in, you’re getting nasty comments from total strangers, and people are saying things like:

  • “Lots of people are saying this! It must be true!”
  • “This guy’s a liar!”
  • “He deliberately does good stuff, to cover up his bad stuff!”


Think about how you’d defend yourself in that situation. Firstly, there’s a pipeline problem. Twitter preferences single messages that are shared by lots of people. It’s a spotlight on a darkened stage. It’s terrible at getting messages out to viral claims about you which have been shared by thousands of people. That would be lighting up the whole stage at once. So even if you have something that utterly proves you’re innocent, it’s very hard to get that in front of everyone unless you can get even more retweets than the allegations did. #metoo is a powerful motivator and you probably won’t.

Secondly, someone’s called you a liar! That means anything you say is probably a lie.

Thirdly, people are happy to believe allegations against you even if you’ve behaved well in the past. The trope that abusers deliberately do good things to cover up their bad acts erases all the reputation you’ve built up over the years not being an asshole. By doing good stuff, you’re engaging in classic asshole behaviour, which only proves you’re more guilty than you were in the first place. There’s no ‘win’ here for an accused person: it’s immediately and irrevocably a fail state.

Modern systems of justice – and I’m talking proper justice, like juries, judges, the law – often fail women because they put the burden of proof on the accuser. This means successfully punishing people for things like sexual assault is difficult, because by the very nature of the offense – usually committed in private, between two people – there isn’t a whole bunch of evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused did the thing the accuser says they did. This is shitty, and it needs to change. But it’s tipped towards the defendant deliberately: Blackstone’s ratio, the idea that “it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”, is a vital founding principle of modern justice.

Call-out culture is the opposite. It thinks it’s better that ten innocents are brought down than one guilty person escapes. It’s designed from the ground up to remove people’s ability to defend themselves. It isn’t justice. It’s a lynch mob.
Call-outs Erase Women said:
Ironically, the only absolute that seems to be true is that there are no absolutes. The world isn’t black and white. But one of the most common responses to a #metoo Twitter shaming is the rallying cry to ‘believe women’. One woman says one thing and she must, she must, be right. I look forward to #metoo revelations from Ivanka Trump.

‘Believe women’ only makes sense if you think – if you really, genuinely think – that women are perfect and could never be misinformed, make mistakes, or be vindictive. People subscribing to ‘believe women’ must not know a single woman in the history of their lives who has ever done something wrong. I’m a big ol’ feminist who runs (well, used to run) a bunch of well-intentioned women in games initiatives because women are amazing. But I know just as many flawed women as I do flawed men. ‘Believe women’ is a weird gender absolute that doesn’t engage with the real world and therefore doesn’t help.

The experience I’ve gone through in the last month is a good case study. Three women of good standing have said one thing. I and Alexis’s ex-wife of ten years, two other women of good standing, have said something else. How can we reconcile Believing Women here? In this Twitter shaming – and I suspect in many others – dissenting voices were happily ignored. Those women shouldn’t be believed. They’re bad actors. Misled by men. Working for the Other Side, like some emotionally compromised Uruk-hai. But believe those first women for sure.

Call-outs silence and erase women who say the world is more complicated than a catchphrase. Call-outs silence and erase anyone who doesn’t play along. Movements which rely on absolutes, repress criticism and seek to erase people who disagree with them tend not to be the best movements in the end.

The ability to discount female voices which aren’t saying the right thing is a rather convenient safeguard. It’s a rather convenient way of silencing women who don’t agree with a very contentious way of enacting social justice. Silencing women doesn’t seem like a particularly good outcome for a progressive feminist social movement.

Junior women joining the industry will be led by the culture and systems we set up to manage the very many and very real wrongs done to women by men. Teaching them that the solution is making a stink on social media is infantilising, dangerous and unhelpful. It will discourage them from making real, practical and actionable changes to this industry, under the misapprehension that the fix has already been found. We are ruining women’s chances at a fair and equal existence in games before they even get here.
There is more contained in the article, including paragraphs on "whisper networks" and the contrast between justice that seeks to reform and call-out culture's confusion on its end goal.
 

Durask

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Feb 6, 2012
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‘Believe women’ only makes sense if you think – if you really, genuinely think – that women are perfect and could never be misinformed, make mistakes, or be vindictive. People subscribing to ‘believe women’ must not know a single woman in the history of their lives who has ever done something wrong. I’m a big ol’ feminist who runs (well, used to run) a bunch of well-intentioned women in games initiatives because women are amazing. But I know just as many flawed women as I do flawed men. ‘Believe women’ is a weird gender absolute that doesn’t engage with the real world and therefore doesn’t help.
Advocates of "believe women" clearly stated that collateral damage is acceptable. Something like "all men should tremble in fear".


There will be some innocent victims in this fight against Fascist agents. We are launching a major attack on the Enemy; let there be no resentment if we bump someone with an elbow. Better that ten innocent people should suffer than one spy get away. When you chop wood, chips fly.
 

Kokonoe

Banned
Dec 2, 2011
14,574
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She had better back that accusation with evidence. I think the Vic Mignogna case should have been a signal to all those wannabe grifters out there that crying wolf about sexual crimes doesn't work when you actually get to court. If I were in this devs' shoes, I'd stay quiet and wait until the need for a lawyer arises.
Vic? Dude is getting destroyed in court and he's the plaintiff! Judge even gave him one last shot out of pity. I fully expect everything to blow up in Vic's face after this final mediation.
 

MisterHero

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Jul 24, 2007
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Hi GAF. It's been a while.

The events over the last few weeks have been infuriating. I can't even think about videogames anymore because there's too much bullshit in the world, and was considering retiring my internet forum persona for both near and far future out of sheer disgust. However, these events all intersected different areas of my life, so I felt the need to express my outrage without certain *cough* reprisals. Last thing before starting, I want to thank everyone running GAF for having a place to talk without being politically stunted in any direction.

I don't care how "complicit" Zoe Quinn is in Alec Holowka's death. I will presume everything she and others have claimed is authentic for a couple reasons: 1) victims need to be heard, and 2) we need to discuss how shittily the truth has been handled.

Disputing my first point: presuming their claims are not exagerations or outright fabrications, we can safely conclude Alec Holowka was not well. That means MAYBE he MAY not have been responsible for behavior that said 'victims' portrayed as being irrational. Even he did all those things, they were not coming from his right mind.

Secondly, again presuming that everything they claimed was fact, we are handling everything we know in shitty ways. While it's not the cause of my outrage, it very much embodies it. A certain WIRED article used Holowka's suicide as a platform to attack mental illness [in men, specifically].

Before I continue, let's recall Etika's suicide. In the aftermath, everyone was like, "We need to recognize the signs and listen more!!".

The problem with that is whenever this shit happens, PEOPLE MAKE THE CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO NOT LISTEN.

The WIRED article suggests that men historically use mental illness as an excuse for bad behavior. That may be true sometimes, but true mental illness causes people to think and do completely irrational things. While it's true those things can still result in people getting hurt, those actions and motivations remain irrational.

What can be rationally observed are the actions taken to deprive the accused of their jobs, their community, their friends, family, and general outlook on life. People with no diagnosis and of "good moral authority" deciding what mentally ill people should suffer through.

The article suggests that because some men are fucking liars that all mentally ill [READ: RENDERED IRRATIONAL] men should hold themselves up to some higher whatever standard. They don't deserve to be listened to, even as they are at death's door, because they are white and a man and presumably straight. This is just childish and IMO is the premiere argument against cancel culture. Wokeness is good until you're not woke enough.

I acknowledge that people can claim illness to excuse bad behavior, but I cannot stress this enough: You do NOT want to lie about being mentally ill. I'm not an expert but I have some experience. The initial treatment fucked me up. Even when medication was better portioned and I began to feel better, I felt like parts of my mind were missing. Eventually I had to give up meds for several reasons, mostly because I couldn't afford them.

I am lucky enough that I could straighten my thought processes out in reasonable time. I started a gym membership a few months ago. I'm trying to find my own place. Maybe hold 2 jobs and maybe return to art as a hobby. I want to try learn game coding or a second language as well, even if I'm not a natural to either and might fail. I'm not bragging about what I can possibly accomplish, but I am optimistic about trying different things in the future. There's so many things we can do if we allow ourselves to see past our failures.

I fucking laugh at the idea that Zoe Quinn works at DC and Marvel. The comics divisions are IP farms for business people who've set themselves up to be thousands of times more profitable than any current writer or artist. She's getting played.

Comics are my favorite medium because (theoretically) anyone can put their ideas to pen and paper. Besides literature itself, comics are the one of the most democratized methods of expression we have. And panels are more fun than just words. To me, comics are the best opportunity to express either personal truths or social truths and 99% of cape comics do not offer either. I've come to hate them and woke pop culture. The ability to create exists for everyone.

In conclusion, anyone who has any part in the events or resulting in that article can eat a dick.
 

Tesseract

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Dec 7, 2008
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you are gonna presume everything those psycho bitches claimed is authentic because victims deserve to be heard?



victimhood culture is the fucking worst, i hope everyone involved is metaphorically buried in their own blood
 
Last edited:

ZombieFred

Member
Mar 4, 2010
3,159
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Hi GAF. It's been a while.

The events over the last few weeks have been infuriating. I can't even think about videogames anymore because there's too much bullshit in the world, and was considering retiring my internet forum persona for both near and far future out of sheer disgust. However, these events all intersected different areas of my life, so I felt the need to express my outrage without certain *cough* reprisals. Last thing before starting, I want to thank everyone running GAF for having a place to talk without being politically stunted in any direction.

I don't care how "complicit" Zoe Quinn is in Alec Holowka's death. I will presume everything she and others have claimed is authentic for a couple reasons: 1) victims need to be heard, and 2) we need to discuss how shittily the truth has been handled.

Disputing my first point: presuming their claims are not exagerations or outright fabrications, we can safely conclude Alec Holowka was not well. That means MAYBE he MAY not have been responsible for behavior that said 'victims' portrayed as being irrational. Even he did all those things, they were not coming from his right mind.

Secondly, again presuming that everything they claimed was fact, we are handling everything we know in shitty ways. While it's not the cause of my outrage, it very much embodies it. A certain WIRED article used Holowka's suicide as a platform to attack mental illness [in men, specifically].

Before I continue, let's recall Etika's suicide. In the aftermath, everyone was like, "We need to recognize the signs and listen more!!".

The problem with that is whenever this shit happens, PEOPLE MAKE THE CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO NOT LISTEN.

The WIRED article suggests that men historically use mental illness as an excuse for bad behavior. That may be true sometimes, but true mental illness causes people to think and do completely irrational things. While it's true those things can still result in people getting hurt, those actions and motivations remain irrational.

What can be rationally observed are the actions taken to deprive the accused of their jobs, their community, their friends, family, and general outlook on life. People with no diagnosis and of "good moral authority" deciding what mentally ill people should suffer through.

The article suggests that because some men are fucking liars that all mentally ill [READ: RENDERED IRRATIONAL] men should hold themselves up to some higher whatever standard. They don't deserve to be listened to, even as they are at death's door, because they are white and a man and presumably straight. This is just childish and IMO is the premiere argument against cancel culture. Wokeness is good until you're not woke enough.

I acknowledge that people can claim illness to excuse bad behavior, but I cannot stress this enough: You do NOT want to lie about being mentally ill. I'm not an expert but I have some experience. The initial treatment fucked me up. Even when medication was better portioned and I began to feel better, I felt like parts of my mind were missing. Eventually I had to give up meds for several reasons, mostly because I couldn't afford them.

I am lucky enough that I could straighten my thought processes out in reasonable time. I started a gym membership a few months ago. I'm trying to find my own place. Maybe hold 2 jobs and maybe return to art as a hobby. I want to try learn game coding or a second language as well, even if I'm not a natural to either and might fail. I'm not bragging about what I can possibly accomplish, but I am optimistic about trying different things in the future. There's so many things we can do if we allow ourselves to see past our failures.

I fucking laugh at the idea that Zoe Quinn works at DC and Marvel. The comics divisions are IP farms for business people who've set themselves up to be thousands of times more profitable than any current writer or artist. She's getting played.

Comics are my favorite medium because (theoretically) anyone can put their ideas to pen and paper. Besides literature itself, comics are the one of the most democratized methods of expression we have. And panels are more fun than just words. To me, comics are the best opportunity to express either personal truths or social truths and 99% of cape comics do not offer either. I've come to hate them and woke pop culture. The ability to create exists for everyone.

In conclusion, anyone who has any part in the events or resulting in that article can eat a dick.
Thank you writing this. Life is not static or black and white like how people easily wish to express on the internet and cry wolf. You are not alone on having to conquer your own demons and wish to be better as a person and grow with the singular wish to be happy and understand the meaning of your own journey in adulthood.

You are a good man, I can tell that the instant from reading your post.

And this is why this event that has occurred and everything as a whole has shown how terribly wrong things are happening with the gaming online social circle, and why places like with reset era and the disillusion on the deep layers on how it operates is unsustainable.

Like anything, the truth comes out eventually and nothing stays in the dark forever. We can only try to be honest and do our best in any shape or form to try and be better and do well.

I always say that no one would should ashamed on enjoying video games and should ignore all these bombardments to try and pretend to be something they are not and why they are not allowed to be happy.

Nice to see an older face back here :) x
 
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marquimvfs

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Jul 25, 2014
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Well, speaking without sarcasm, I can only conclude that Zoey is mentally ill. Maybe some kind of narcissistic personality disorder, or something like that, along with depression. She lives to create fuz amongst the gamer crowd and seems to pay more attention to the ones that disagree to her than to the white knights that run to protect her. I'm not saying that she's lying on all that, even because Holowka was clearly on some issues by itself, after all, he committed suicide, but, to me, seems like she is more a co-author than a victim on all this.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
May 30, 2004
23,356
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Hi GAF. It's been a while.

The events over the last few weeks have been infuriating. I can't even think about videogames anymore because there's too much bullshit in the world, and was considering retiring my internet forum persona for both near and far future out of sheer disgust. However, these events all intersected different areas of my life, so I felt the need to express my outrage without certain *cough* reprisals. Last thing before starting, I want to thank everyone running GAF for having a place to talk without being politically stunted in any direction.
Heya MH. Been a while, yeah.

I don't care how "complicit" Zoe Quinn is in Alec Holowka's death. I will presume everything she and others have claimed is authentic for a couple reasons: 1) victims need to be heard, and 2) we need to discuss how shittily the truth has been handled.
This is a dangerous perspective that will inevitably be used to exploit you. Credibility matters. Plausibility matters. Evidence matters. History matters. Everyone is capable of lying, and all the more so when they know no one will evaluate their statements critically. Never turn your critical faculties off like this because you think it's the moral position. Always use your brain. That's the only way to strive for moral decency: search for the truth.
 

Knivess

Neo Member
Sep 10, 2019
32
83
125
Hi GAF. It's been a while.

The events over the last few weeks have been infuriating. I can't even think about videogames anymore because there's too much bullshit in the world, and was considering retiring my internet forum persona for both near and far future out of sheer disgust. However, these events all intersected different areas of my life, so I felt the need to express my outrage without certain *cough* reprisals. Last thing before starting, I want to thank everyone running GAF for having a place to talk without being politically stunted in any direction.

I don't care how "complicit" Zoe Quinn is in Alec Holowka's death. I will presume everything she and others have claimed is authentic for a couple reasons: 1) victims need to be heard, and 2) we need to discuss how shittily the truth has been handled.

Disputing my first point: presuming their claims are not exagerations or outright fabrications, we can safely conclude Alec Holowka was not well. That means MAYBE he MAY not have been responsible for behavior that said 'victims' portrayed as being irrational. Even he did all those things, they were not coming from his right mind.

Secondly, again presuming that everything they claimed was fact, we are handling everything we know in shitty ways. While it's not the cause of my outrage, it very much embodies it. A certain WIRED article used Holowka's suicide as a platform to attack mental illness [in men, specifically].

Before I continue, let's recall Etika's suicide. In the aftermath, everyone was like, "We need to recognize the signs and listen more!!".

The problem with that is whenever this shit happens, PEOPLE MAKE THE CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO NOT LISTEN.

The WIRED article suggests that men historically use mental illness as an excuse for bad behavior. That may be true sometimes, but true mental illness causes people to think and do completely irrational things. While it's true those things can still result in people getting hurt, those actions and motivations remain irrational.

What can be rationally observed are the actions taken to deprive the accused of their jobs, their community, their friends, family, and general outlook on life. People with no diagnosis and of "good moral authority" deciding what mentally ill people should suffer through.

The article suggests that because some men are fucking liars that all mentally ill [READ: RENDERED IRRATIONAL] men should hold themselves up to some higher whatever standard. They don't deserve to be listened to, even as they are at death's door, because they are white and a man and presumably straight. This is just childish and IMO is the premiere argument against cancel culture. Wokeness is good until you're not woke enough.

I acknowledge that people can claim illness to excuse bad behavior, but I cannot stress this enough: You do NOT want to lie about being mentally ill. I'm not an expert but I have some experience. The initial treatment fucked me up. Even when medication was better portioned and I began to feel better, I felt like parts of my mind were missing. Eventually I had to give up meds for several reasons, mostly because I couldn't afford them.

I am lucky enough that I could straighten my thought processes out in reasonable time. I started a gym membership a few months ago. I'm trying to find my own place. Maybe hold 2 jobs and maybe return to art as a hobby. I want to try learn game coding or a second language as well, even if I'm not a natural to either and might fail. I'm not bragging about what I can possibly accomplish, but I am optimistic about trying different things in the future. There's so many things we can do if we allow ourselves to see past our failures.

I fucking laugh at the idea that Zoe Quinn works at DC and Marvel. The comics divisions are IP farms for business people who've set themselves up to be thousands of times more profitable than any current writer or artist. She's getting played.

Comics are my favorite medium because (theoretically) anyone can put their ideas to pen and paper. Besides literature itself, comics are the one of the most democratized methods of expression we have. And panels are more fun than just words. To me, comics are the best opportunity to express either personal truths or social truths and 99% of cape comics do not offer either. I've come to hate them and woke pop culture. The ability to create exists for everyone.

In conclusion, anyone who has any part in the events or resulting in that article can eat a dick.
Hi, I agree with most of your post and it’s good to hear another reasoned perspective on the matter.

I don't care how "complicit" Zoe Quinn is in Alec Holowka's death. I will presume everything she and others have claimed is authentic for a couple reasons: 1) victims need to be heard, and 2) we need to discuss how shittily the truth has been handled.
Whilst victims do need to be heard, her credibility on this matter is what determines whether or not she is a victim. To me, strong evidence suggests that she isn’t.

Victims need to be heard but pathological liars and manipulators need to be called out.
 

ruvikx

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I don't care how "complicit" Zoe Quinn is in Alec Holowka's death. I will presume everything she and others have claimed is authentic for a couple reasons: 1) victims need to be heard, and 2) we need to discuss how shittily the truth has been handled.
This isn't how "justice" works. You can't just blindly trust people, especially when personal interests & vendettas are involved. It's at best naïve & at worse something far more sinister (i.e. tacitly encouraging an environment of fear & terror whereby a Damocles sword in the form of unsubstantiated "sexual assault" accusations destroy men in the western world). That's why there's a pushback against people like Quinn, i.e. a huge amount of us don't want to live in that world.

Zoe Quinn's past dubious behavior has also been well documented & despite the fact she has disqualified herself from even being taken seriously from minute one with her bandwagon jumping "metoo" accusation (because she's a proven liar, scammer & manipulator), it's not even the main point, i.e. the point is a form of due process must be observed & people can't just run around pointing fingers & screaming "guilty!" at whomever because they want to believe it's true. That's route A to mob rule, witch hunts & a savage, backwards barbaric system. I get some far-leftist extremist types want that (i.e. insofar as they're the ones pulling the pitchfork mob strings on social media), but as for me? They can fuck off.
 

Rya.Reisender

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I agree that it kind of doesn't matter if the accussations are true or not in regards to the fact that it's apparently possible to ruin anyone's life at will and driving the less stable ones to suicide without even involving the court, and actually getting away with it. This is just wrong no matter how you look at it.

Victims need to heard, but I don't really see the need of victims to be heard by all humanity. If being heard involved blindly trusting everything that person says, then wouldn't your family and closest friends suffice? If being heard meant being listened to and taken seriously, wouldn't the police / law enforcement be sufficient?

I personally would sign a law against publically accusing someone of something any time. It shouldn't even go public at all until the court decides the person is guilty imo.

Obviously when you got raped, then took a shower, then waited several years without saying anything, it's basically impossible to ever proof it. I get that. But maybe you should just realize you messed up and try to go on with your life rather than striving for revenge. Ruining someone's life without court involvement at all is simply not a good solution. Getting victims to immediately go to the police and not feel ashamed about it is a good solution.
 
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MisterHero

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Thanks for the responses guys.

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek regarding that first point and Ms. Quinn. I don't believe her accounts will ever be complete given all the stuff I've read. Everything she's done is gross and I won't go further than that. I'll let her work (and lack thereof) speak for itself.

And when I said 'victims should be heard', that also includes Mr. Holowka, except he can't speak and I'm skeptical of what his sister said.

Overall, what happened between them is none of my business. But when it mutates into a crusade dismissing mens' mental health or hijacking whatever creators want to create, then they have forced me to utterly disagree. Maybe it's too late for this specific case, but cancel culture intentionally bypassing law enforcement and whatever lawful protections for the accused and mentally ill is shitty and needs to be stopped.

Anyhoo I've been lurking for ages and now I look forward to shooting the shit about games, movies, whatever. Dunno if I'll post much but I do enjoy reading your guys' candid reactions to different things.
 

AntiCap

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And when I said 'victims should be heard', that also includes Mr. Holowka, except he can't speak and I'm skeptical of what his sister said.
Aye, a lot of people seem to forget that you can give someone the benefit of the doubt without stripping it from everyone else.

It's not about assuming everything someone says is 100% factual. It just means assuming they're speaking in good faith.

Although I think it's safe to say at this stage that Quinn doesn't have the best track record for good faith.
 

ROMhack

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I often like to think what would happen if the person getting leveled criticism at wasn't on social media or whatever.

Like, how would they even know that people were talking shit about them? How much of it actually cease to matter from the shit talkers themselves?

Random point but it seems like a lot of the politics of cancel culture is mutually participatory in nature, especially when it's about individuals, not businesses.
 
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Arimer

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As much as I despise that ugly freak bitch, I still think it was Alex' own decision to commit suicide.
ultimately Yes, The person is responsible for their own decision. But Zoe did set plenty of things into action that would push them too it, possibly to the point of being the straw that broke the camels back. In a matter of days she ruined his reputation, His livelihood, his friendships, etc. So you take someone that you know is already broken and you push them towards the edge then act blameless when they jump I just don't buy it. It's like the girl that texted the guy to get back in the truck.

I also can't ignore the hypocrisy in all the rules Zoe has tried to play by in her own life. If you criticize her it's harassment, if more than 1 person tweets her it's dog piling and a hate campaign. Anything said about her is rumors based on that hate. Yet when she does it All those rules go out the window. She depersoned him and did it thoroughly using that groups political ideology to help push him to the edge while screaming jump. And now that he did they want to act innocent.
 
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Knivess

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As much as I despise that ugly freak bitch
As much as i understand anger towards her i really can't overstate how comments like that just give her ammunition. Something else to point to, to say the evil gamers are out to get her again.

I still think it was Alex' own decision to commit suicide.
It was, but that doesn't exempt her from slander and false accusations at the very least even if we take his suicidal tendencies out of the equation. Thats still a serious crime.
 
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MacReady13

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If you want a reason as to why you're banned it's fairly simple. A lot of the staff are irl friends with Quiin. Here's a video from before the gamergate thing:


It's that simple. They'll probably believe Quinn for the rest of time because they've actually met her and believe her at her word. Look, I've gone into depth in several long-winded posts about why I believe Quinn's a liar and why I think I have good evidence of that but I haven't fucking met her. Who knows, as a drinking buddy, for instance, she might actually be good company. I don't fucking know her.

Anyway you need not have any fear of being banned here for expressing that opinion. Believe me many here have said a lot worse here about Zoe Quinn.... or Chelsea Van Valkenburg... or Locke Valentine in the last few weeks.
It's funny how sites like the one in the video above react negatively towards "gamers", yet those people are the stereotypical gamers in terms of looks and the way they talk.
I gave up on GB years ago. Sick of their bullshit. Plus, I couldn't handle how negatively and overly sarcastic they were towards almost every fucking game! We get it- you're the "cool" gamers. You hate everything mainstream. But fucking hell, if I had to hear that fat fucker 1 more time say how awful Yoshi's Island was (it definitely isn't) I was ready to puke. Plus, they refused to cover Kingdom Come Deliverance because of Vavra's "problematic" beliefs and his approval of GamerGate...
 

XVision84

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The activity in this thread is dying down and so too is media coverage of all this. I can't believe she's actually getting away with all this without even attempting to address the inconsistencies in her statements.

Very sad.
 

Dthomp

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The activity in this thread is dying down and so too is media coverage of all this. I can't believe she's actually getting away with all this without even attempting to address the inconsistencies in her statements.

Very sad.
She has nothing to gain from talking about this anymore. She was pretty much gone from most eyes, and more importantly broke. This nonsense likely tripled or quadrupled her patreon money from simply calling herself a victim. She got the two things she craves 1)Attention and 2)Money
 
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zenspider

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The point of the call-out culture IS the sadistic joy of destroying someone. It's not a bug, it is a feature.
This is kind of the thing here. In all these condemnations about Alec, it seems every one he was actually confronted with, he took on and sought help.

But that's not the point though is it?

The other throughline is the (I hate how cool the term sounds) "whisper network". Here's the thing: you're not doing anyone any favors not telling them their problems. If everyone is seemingly fine with someone's behavior why would they change it?

All politics aside, this combination of fear of direct confrontation (innthis case, appealling to the authority of the internet-facing "public"), and the utter lack of compassion are a toxic cocktail.

Cancel culture doesn't wants these people to become better, they want them out of their way.
 

nkarafo

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The activity in this thread is dying down and so too is media coverage of all this. I can't believe she's actually getting away with all this without even attempting to address the inconsistencies in her statements.

Very sad.
This was known from the beginning.
 
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AntiCap

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The activity in this thread is dying down and so too is media coverage of all this. I can't believe she's actually getting away with all this without even attempting to address the inconsistencies in her statements.

Very sad.
I think the best we can hope for is that enough people will eventually be inoculated against her brand of bullshit to the point that when someone says 'Have you heard about X? Turns out they abused Y', the response will be 'No I haven't heard, but I wasn't there, and you weren't either, so shut the fuck up.'

The Post Millennial have another article on the way, but unless it's literally incriminating then probably nothing will come of it, other than further ruining Zoe Quinn's SEO.
 

Knivess

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But the police are part of the white male patriarchy and totally BIASED!

That's their truth, until their targets counter-attacks with any sort of physical ferocity. They'd be the first to beg for the patriarchal police.
Makes you wonder, how long is it gonna be until one of these targets of theirs, rather than disappearing or committing suicide decides to take the accuser out with them. They're so quick to disregard law and order, but law and order was created in the first place to protect vulnerable people like them. A world of martial law would not go well for them.
 
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Heya MH. Been a while, yeah.



This is a dangerous perspective that will inevitably be used to exploit you. Credibility matters. Plausibility matters. Evidence matters. History matters. Everyone is capable of lying, and all the more so when they know no one will evaluate their statements critically. Never turn your critical faculties off like this because you think it's the moral position. Always use your brain. That's the only way to strive for moral decency: search for the truth.
Nail.
Hammer.
BANG!
 
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