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Zombies. Steam key kerfuffle; dev waffles on Steam keys for past purchasers, drama
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
Rather than have DetectiveGAF make this a big thing, this is me (would've been pretty easy to find). I've posted a few times in this thread and made my points already. Since he chose to give out keys, I'd rather not perpetuate the situation any more.
Is this a GAF member?
I wouldn't mind hearing some of those defenses.
Nubian Star
Member
Funchameleon
Banned
I like how instead of believing him wrt the bundles offering steam keys without his consent we chose to bare the teeth of GAMER JUSTICE and made sure he knew his career was on the line. If this is how we treat indie developers I'd hate to work anywhere near CS for a AAA developer/publisher. God damn.
Messofanego
Banned
Wouldn't a AAA developer be easier to avoid this, since you're not putting yourself out there as much and are just a cog in the machine? Don't get to have much of an online presence or need to, since the publisher will help sell your game, the marketing, and social media contacts.
Funchameleon
Banned
This place has ended careers.
.
Maybe it's because several indie developers in this very thread (including the OP) have indicated how it's most likely that he gave his consent.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
You monsters.
charlequin
Banned
People behave in an extremely terrible and immoral way towards customer service in every industry, in every context, because most people have been victimized by faceless bureaucracy and are bad at reminding themselves that customer service people are, in fact, people. It's pretty awful but not in any particular way specific to gaming.
I definitely feel bad for this guy for the assuredly disproportionate harassment that he got for this, though I don't have any real sympathy for him on his original decision -- handing out Steam keys is both SOP at all these bundles and an objectively smart business practice, so I don't have a lot of patience for the bullshit excuses people make up to justify not doing it.
chrominance
Member
The Spacebase DF-9 prototype from Amnesia Fortnight 2012 wasn't a paid beta. It's really not the same thing at all. There was no inherent promise that any of the prototypes would even lead to a full game, let alone that you would be given a copy of any of them if they made it to production. (Though maybe that's your point?)
I was almost empathizing with the guy mentioning not really wanting to hand out thousands of keys to various bundle sites without a 1:1 way to verify, to a reasonable degree of certainty, who those keys were going to. But when he backed out on even giving out keys to people who purchased the game from his own site because REASONS!!! that's when I think he deserves everything he got.
One does wonder if this is the case, though. Are unscrupulous bundle people promising Steam keys for games despite their developers' plans to the contrary?
Narpas Sword0
Member
If they were misrepresenting his game he had plenty of time to do something about it as soon as it happened. Then he could have given out one day's worth of keys due to the error and called it a day.
Yep. You get what you pay for. If you pay for a beta/prototype you get a beta/prototype unless specifically stated otherwise. So if he was selling the game as-is. thats all you should expect to get (bug fixes are expected to be free, but content updates aren't).
Looks like the steam keys in the IGS sale wasn't part of the IGS<->dev deal , so in this specific sale it is probably IGS's fault.
But it also looks like the dev promised to give steam keys elsewhere (the FAQ and steam forum posts). Though some of them seem to mention that he will do that if he can identify the buyers, which he can't.
Anyway,from the PR perspective, he handled this poorly.
If this was true then why was he asking for a list of customers of the bundles before handing over Steam keys? All he should've said from the beginning was "My contracts with these bundles never included Steam keys and they lied to their customers". There's a reason he didn't start with that.
I'm not sure that makes sense. Even though in an ideal world, I think the opposite would be true, in this world I certainly hold indie devs to a far higher level of ethical standards than, for example, EA. It's more or less accepted that EA is a scummy company full of scummy people. The only reason people tolerate them is because they have no choice. There are a lot of scummy people and companies with a lot of money. And they use that money to buy other companies and in general spread their influence. If you want to boycott EA, for instance, it's practically equivalent to boycotting gaming in general since they're bound to eventually dip their fingers into multiple titles you may be interested in. However, a single indie dev can be hurt (or, as a corollary - helped) far more by consumer resentment or appeal. For an example of the latter I, and I know many others, may purchase multiple copies of an indie game to gift simply because you think the dev deserves it and know it'd really help them - yet I'd be unlikely to ever purchase multiple copies of an Atlus game, for instance, even though I think they're a top notch company - such small scale gestures cost me much more than it helps them and not just in the literal sense.
There's a lot of evidence that he's not correct about the bundles, whether he's intentionally lying or just mistaken. And if the bundles were promising steam keys without his consent, why are we only hearing about it now? And not when they started doing it and people started buying the game? I have a hard time believing he never went to the website to see the game on sale.
And he's being incredibly hostile to his paying customers, calling them "scumbags" and implying they are cheap asses for not wanting to pay another $4 after already buying the game. You don't see most people who at least want to appear to value their customers openly calling them names.
Well, there's prior evidence that he offered steam keys to people who bought the game from his website (someone quoted the FAQ, which is no longer there). I'm also curious why he was talking about wanting the list of customers from the bundle sites if he never said he would give out steam keys in the first place. At first his answer seemed to be, "Well, I was going to, but I couldn't get the information I wanted so I'm not anymore." Then it was "I was never going to."
Team Filler
Member
There's a lot of information dug up in this thread that already points towards him not being on the level with regards to what transpired, but even without that he still called many of his customers "scumbags", and that is a mind-bogglingly stupid thing to do when you're almost entirely reliant on positive word-of-mouth getting your game out to the masses.
He should've already known better. At least now he does for the future.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Seriously though, this must be a joke.
Is the scam some kind of high concept art piece in action? Is this Shia Lebouf?
Funchameleon
Banned
Sorry, made the point very poorly. We don't know for sure what his intentions were and he has essentially been bullied into giving untold numbers of steam keys away before anyone knew for sure what was going on. It's about disproportionate treatment of a potentially struggling indie dev, even given his less than saintly intent. It's a rough and over-saturated industry if you aren't one of the few that strikes big.
Did I miss something in the first post? Because the way I read it, there's no actual proof that he's lying (I don't really know how Greenlight works, so maybe I am missing something because of that). For all I know he could very well not have known about what the publisher of the bundles offered. I'm not saying that's the case, I'm just saying I'd like to know all the facts before I start calling someone a "scumbag" and accusing them of intentionally deceiving people in this way.
If this sends a message to other indie devs on Greenlight that they can't simply brush off/break promises to the userbase that got them to Steam in the first place, then that's a very good thing, disproportionate or no.
He hasn't been bullied into anything. He made the statement yesterday that current owners of the game would not be getting a Steam key because of the extra levels he was going to add to the game, and that bundle purchasers would also not be getting a key because bundle websites would not hand over sensitive information.
Now, he claims something completely different- he never made promises to bundle sites or anyone else, and that the scumbags (i.e. his current customers) have won, and they'll get their damn keys.
Whether you're a AAA major publisher like EA or an indie dev, you are held to the same standards as everyone else in treating your customers with respect.
As mentioned above, his first excuse was that he could not give bundle purchasers any keys because he didn't have the information needed to give them out. Then later he claimed he never promised bundle purchasers keys to begin with.
That was partly true with IndieGameStand. It seems to be false with other bundles that specifically state that keys would be given, something that the developer has to specifically activate/request.
Fixed
This is becoming quite common, minus the canceling of the promise:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=764246
I feel like greenlight should have a policy against it, but we all know greenlight has several issues.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=764246
I feel like greenlight should have a policy against it, but we all know greenlight has several issues.
Nealand Liquor
Member
Has anyone stopped to think that maybe he is regular guy like you and me, and just fucked up a bit?
Maybe he didn't think about how many keys he'd have to give away and msybe he freaked out and panicked when confronted with the number?
I dunno about you but I've fucked up before, I've acted like an unintentional asshole when not thinking, I've over thought situations before and made piss poor decisions because of it.
I'm not saying what he said and how he acted was correct, but maybe he doesn't deserve to be tarred and feathered this time.
Maybe he didn't think about how many keys he'd have to give away and msybe he freaked out and panicked when confronted with the number?
I dunno about you but I've fucked up before, I've acted like an unintentional asshole when not thinking, I've over thought situations before and made piss poor decisions because of it.
I'm not saying what he said and how he acted was correct, but maybe he doesn't deserve to be tarred and feathered this time.
Team Filler
Member
Regular guys (and gals) try to swindle and cheat people all the time, why should he get a pass in this instance? Because internet justice is swift and loud? Ridiculous.
He not only went back on what was originally promised, but then he proceeded to change his story, and when called out on that, insult his customers. Hilarious that anybody would defend this.
He not only went back on what was originally promised, but then he proceeded to change his story, and when called out on that, insult his customers. Hilarious that anybody would defend this.
runnin_blue
Banned
I'm not defending this guy but I find it interesting that indie devs becoming exasperated with their customer base seems to be more prevalent as time goes on.
First Phil Fish, then Depression Quest, then the Flappy Bird guy and now this and I'm sure there's probably heaps more instances.
Maybe it is a product of them being more accessible and/or indebted to their audience.
Even so, I agree that this guy is being an ass by not wanting to honour his promises but if I was in an indie's shoes, I'm sure there would be quite a few internet trolls that I'd want to punch in the face. So I can kind of understand his rude comments. We aren't privy to what kind of comments he's had to put up with after all.
First Phil Fish, then Depression Quest, then the Flappy Bird guy and now this and I'm sure there's probably heaps more instances.
Maybe it is a product of them being more accessible and/or indebted to their audience.
Even so, I agree that this guy is being an ass by not wanting to honour his promises but if I was in an indie's shoes, I'm sure there would be quite a few internet trolls that I'd want to punch in the face. So I can kind of understand his rude comments. We aren't privy to what kind of comments he's had to put up with after all.
Well this begs the question.
Is he going to include the updated version he has been working on? Or is he just going to distribute the outdated version?
Context tweet, he references his game as the older version, 'Zombies.'
I like how this guy has the gall to use the word "scumbags."
SteveWinwood
Member
I don't understand why he's fighting so hard to make a poor business decision.
Here's a hint bud. How many people bought those bundles? Thousands? Steam has millions of users. If your game is good you'll have sales regardless of how many people you gave keys to (to a game they already own!).
All he's doing is pissing people off and making bad press.
Here's a hint bud. How many people bought those bundles? Thousands? Steam has millions of users. If your game is good you'll have sales regardless of how many people you gave keys to (to a game they already own!).
All he's doing is pissing people off and making bad press.
charlequin
Banned
It beggars meaning to suggest that a businessperson being asked to deal fairly with his customers and live up to promises made by him or made in his name by business partners is "bullying" of any stripe.
Which is probably why I and most people in this conversation have only advocated that he give out keys and not that his life be ruined, his house burned down, his children given to aliens, etc.?
What do these completely different situations have to do with each other? Especially what does the situation with Depression Quest, where a creator put her game on Steam Greenlight and was harassed and threatened for it, have to do with anything else we're talking about here?
Not sure if posted but... This is from groupees
Email from dev
Groupees response
Email from dev
Groupees response
tnks for cleaning it upHere. I cleaned it up so there's less repeated:
Edit: restored missing img
Quadraphonic
Member
FYI:
The Steam key generation is laughably simple.
You go into a form in Steamworks. You enter a number for how many keys you want generated and a little string to remind you what those keys are for. And POOF! Your keys are generated. No fees. No questions asked.
See his email? NOVEMBER 2012 saying he'd give out keys. Sorry, just because you improved the game over the last year doesn't mean you get to change the rules.
The Steam key generation is laughably simple.
You go into a form in Steamworks. You enter a number for how many keys you want generated and a little string to remind you what those keys are for. And POOF! Your keys are generated. No fees. No questions asked.
That dude is fucked.Not sure if posted but... This is from groupees
Email from dev
See his email? NOVEMBER 2012 saying he'd give out keys. Sorry, just because you improved the game over the last year doesn't mean you get to change the rules.
charlequin
Banned
nobody can read that shit bro
Reuploaded. I'm on mobile so I can't tell if there was any improvement
8 X 11 Printer Paper
Member
Good now.
Quadraphonic
Member
Here. I cleaned it up so there's less repeated:
Edit: restored missing img
Edit: restored missing img
I think you just described NeoGAF in a single post. I'm impressed!
This sarcasm is why I hate NeoGAF. And every other message board, where sarcasm is used. This is the reason why I don't visit message boards at all.