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Kotaku: Sony is working on a ‘PS4.5; briefing devs on plans for a more powerful PS4

V

-VipeR

Banned
I have discussed this to death in this in this thread :
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=194724020&highlight=#post194724020

Basically :


This will not split the market , nor screw current adopters.
From a business point of view this is actually a good idea. Look at phones and tablet. People buy them every year or two.


Have two consoles available . base model and PS4 elite.

PS4 Elite would run every base model game at 1080p/60fps with better Anti-Aliasing, (or 1080p/very stable 30fps with better graphics and anti aliasing for heavy games like witcher 3).
That would be the standard, No game is allowed to run below that, and every game released to the base ps4 must support this feature. (should be easy from a developing point of view). No game will ever only release on the elite.

So a stronger GPU/CPU with more RAM, and a possible bigger SSHD Drive.

Remember Bloodborne ? I'm playing it right now, Superb game, but it runs 30fps and it has jaggies all over the place. Image playing that game on your ps4 at 60fps with better anti aliasing (less jaggies) . you can play uncharted 4 at 60fps. Fallout4 ps4 at 60fps with better anti-aliasing.

Yes Sony is making a lot of money with the ps4, but releasing an elite version would only make them more money. Everyone who was going to buy a PS4 in 2016 can still buy it. Everyone who owns it can still play his games like nothing happened.

But enthusiasts ps4 gamers can now trade in their base ps4 for an elite one. High PC gamers who hate jaggies and low fps and want to play uncharted 4/bloodborne and the likes of ps4 exclusives, can now buy a PS4 elite.

This can also benefit PSVR games, and make them run better.

And it would allow for a longer lifespan for the ps4. PS5 released 5 years after the ps4 is not gonna have a significant jump. Thus the best time for a ps4 elite is halfway though the lifecycle. So 2016 or 2017 (since they have PSVR in 2016)

This whole thing can also act as an experiment for a possible two SKUs PS5 launch in the future (base and an elite) .

.
 
F

foolishoptimist

Member
onQ123 said:
If price is the reason that you was getting PSVR why would you buy another PS4 that you don't really need just because it's there?

If the higher specs isn't making you go for the PC VR sets why would the higher specs make you get a new PS4?

You was gonna get PSVR over OR & Vive because it's cheaper then building a PC for VR but all of a sudden because Sony release PS4.5 you feel like you have to have it & now you have the money to choose from buying a PS4.5 + PSVR or building a PC + buying OR?
Click to expand...

The scenario I suggested is a hypothetical. In reality, I'm not a PC gamer. I have a decent laptop, but not decent enough, and you can't upgrade them.

But the impact here does kind of depend on how it's communicated, and we have no idea how Sony would approach it. Sony have so far been communicating that PS4 is perfectly capable of VR at those lower specs. Introducing a PS4.5 with improved VR performance undermines that messaging. Maybe the PS4 isn't capable enough. Am I going to be unable to play certain games without upgrading?

Even ignoring this PS4.5 rumor, you still have lots of people in the VR threads questioning whether PSVR is going to be PS2 quality, and then suggesting Sony isn't going to support it like other peripherals.

This rumor introduces the question of PS4+PSVR#1 support over PS4.5+PSVR#1.
 
T

TheXbox

Member
-VipeR said:
I have discussed this to death in this in this thread :
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=194724020&highlight=#post194724020

Basically :


This will not split the market , nor screw current adopters.
From a business point of view this is actually a good idea. Look at phones and tablet. People buy them every year or two.


Have two consoles available . base model and PS4 elite.

PS4 Elite would run every base model game at 1080p/60fps with better Anti-Aliasing, (or 1080p/very stable 30fps with better graphics and anti aliasing for heavy games like witcher 3).
That would be the standard, No game is allowed to run below that, and every game released to the base ps4 must support this feature. (should be easy from a developing point of view). No game will ever only release on the elite.

So a stronger GPU/CPU with more RAM, and a possible bigger SSHD Drive.

Remember Bloodborne ? I'm playing it right now, Superb game, but it runs 30fps and it has jaggies all over the place. Image playing that game on your ps4 at 60fps with better anti aliasing (less jaggies) . you can play uncharted 4 at 60fps. Fallout4 ps4 at 60fps with better anti-aliasing.

Yes Sony is making a lot of money with the ps4, but releasing an elite version would only make them more money. Everyone who was going to buy a PS4 in 2016 can still buy it. Everyone who owns it can still play his games like nothing happened.

But enthusiasts ps4 gamers can now trade in their base ps4 for an elite one. High PC gamers who hate jaggies and low fps and want to play uncharted 4/bloodborne and the likes of ps4 exclusives, can now buy a PS4 elite.

This can also benefit PSVR games, and make them run better.

And it would allow for a longer lifespan for the ps4. PS5 released 5 years after the ps4 is not gonna have a significant jump. Thus the best time for a ps4 elite is halfway though the lifecycle. So 2016 or 2017 (since they have PSVR in 2016)

This whole thing can also act as an experiment for a possible two SKUs PS5 launch in the future (base and an elite) .

.
Click to expand...
This is going to force devs to optimise for a second console. What do publishers stand to gain from releasing two versions of the same game at the same price, only incurring a greater cost? I suppose the closer these consoles get to PC architecture, the more feasible this becomes, but how feasible is it now? Especially if those strict standards you outlined were enforced. And might those standards for the Elite SKU de-incentivize devs from optimizing games to run at 1080/60 on the old SKU?
 
I

Ishida

Banned
You guys seriously believe that a new PS4 model will be released this year, and that such model will run all previous games at flawless 1080p / 60fps?

Really?

Even if such a massive hardware upgrade was released, all the previous games would need to be patched in order to take advantage of the new hardware. How many developers do you think would actually work on such patches?
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
TheXbox said:
This is going to force devs to optimise for a second console. What do publishers stand to gain from releasing two versions of the same game at the same price, only incurring a greater cost? I suppose the closer these consoles get to PC architecture, the more feasible this becomes, but how feasible is it now? Especially if those strict standards you outlined were enforced. And might those standards for the Elite SKU de-incentivize devs from optimizing games to run at 1080/60 on the old SKU?
Click to expand...

It wouldn't really be two versions. Same version runs on both. The higher end model might have a couple of tweaks like better shadows, less pop in, faster load times but I expect those to be minimal, if utilized at all. The main difference will be however this handles 4k output.

Ishida said:
You guys seriously believe that a new PS4 model will be released this year, and that such model will run all previous games at flawless 1080p / 60fps?

Really?

Even if such a massive hardware upgrade was released, all the previous games would need to be patched in order to take advantage of the new hardware. How many developers do you think would actually work on such patches?
Click to expand...

This is a part of the reason why I think that it's just some 4k upscaling combined with a small increase in CPU/GPU speed. Upscaling is OS level so games wouldn't need to be patched.
 
M

MogCakes

Member
TheXbox said:
This is going to force devs to optimise for a second console. What do publishers stand to gain from releasing two versions of the same game at the same price, only incurring a greater cost? I suppose the closer these consoles get to PC architecture, the more feasible this becomes, but how feasible is it now? Especially if those strict standards you outlined were enforced. And might those standards for the Elite SKU de-incentivize devs from optimizing games to run at 1080/60 on the old SKU?
Click to expand...

I think he means that all PS4 games will work on either system, just the beefier one will render better/have better FPS, possibly even some extra grass, how exciting! In all honesty, most of the hype surrounding the hypothetical 4.5 seems to be for nothing but better framerate and effects, which to me would be a worthless reason to introduce a half-step upgrade.

Ishida said:
Even if such a massive hardware upgrade was released, all the previous games would need to be patched in order to take advantage of the new hardware. How many developers do you think would actually work on such patches?
Click to expand...

I believe the prevailing argument is that games will simply scale on the better hardware. I don't claim to have the technical expertise of a game dev, but I have my doubts it's as simple as people are claiming, at least for existing PS4 games unless every game was designed to scale, which would mean every dev has been in on it from the start - which is also highly unlikely. Scale me back to the stone age if wrong.
 
O

Obliterator

Member
Patrick Klepek said:
Naw, Sony only told us they don't comment on rumors/speculation.
Click to expand...

Patrick you've been awesome talking with us in this thread and keeping us up to date. I know I speak for nearly everyone here when I say we appreciate it.

One quick question, if you are allowed to answer, do you think there will be a follow up story on this in the somewhat near future? Or too hard to tell atm?
 
G

gus-gus

Banned
Papacheeks said:
It's always been that way. And has yet to impact console sales.
Click to expand...

MogCakes said:
Trying to compete with PC GPU releases is a recipe for disaster, consoles should never attempt this.
Click to expand...

@mogcakes never said they should compete with gpus. Used it as an example of how fast tech is passing them,

@papacheeks if you are going to claim that show me stats that prove the rise in cost of creating a platform is not getting more expensive, while consumers continue to keep prices depressed. Please don't tell there is no impact, if things were going great for everyone they wouldn't look to do this, and generate more work and expense for everyone. There is a reason behind this. Companies don't go out of their way to make things more difficult for no reason. show me some stats, don't just talk.
 
O

onQ123

Member
That moment you realize that you been playing games on the APU this whole time & now they are about to add the discrete GPU & make your PS4 the CPU
ewoppowe.jpg
 
C

Crimson_Echidna

Banned
I do think Sony should go for the Playstation 4k as a name if this is the case.

Honestly, I welcome the idea of console upgrades instead of console cycles, especially given how poorly prepared companies were for this recent cycle.
 
B

BudokaiMR2

Member
Is this where Sony jumps the shark and makes PS4 development a pain for 3rd parties and small indie developers, thereby cementing the success of the NX for Nintendo?

No but really that would be amazing.
 
J

jabberwocker

Banned
Yeah this 4k talk is a bit premature. I think a solid 1080p 90fps max settings should be target here. The 90 fps for vr reasons. Most people dont have 4k tvs. Also 4k tvs really dont look much different than 1080p tvs at 8' away so there isnt much to gain. 4k shines on pc where you are 2-3 feet or projection where you are over 100". The TV space is in a really odd place here right now with 4k. So with that being said a 970ish gpu would probably be a sweet spot here.
 
P

Patrick Klepek

furiously molesting tim burton
Obliterator said:
Patrick you've been awesome talking with us in this thread and keeping us up to date. I know I speak for nearly everyone here when I say we appreciate it.

One quick question, if you are allowed to answer, do you think there will be a follow up story on this in the somewhat near future? Or too hard to tell atm?
Click to expand...

Hard to tell. Even though I've heard about this for a while, it's only at GDC that we felt comfortable pulling the trigger. That's how this always works--we're very careful. If I shared every whisper I heard, I'd sound a lot cooler.
 
D

DavidDesu

Member
If this does come to pass, I do wonder what the core impetus for the decision is. Had they heard talk of Microsoft going down this route so worked on their own implementation, was it a plan from the start, responding to consumers lust for the greatest specs etc.

I can't see Sony doing this completely as their own decision, it feels like a response to something. UNLESS it was the plan all along, to usher in a more iOS/Android style of system, with PlayStation as the OS, and the PS4 hardware facilitating the same range of games, with some added perks for those with the latest version of the hardware.

If it wasn't the plan all along is it really to counter Microsoft doing a similar thing?

I don't see Sony trying to battle against the PC gaming side of the equation. I think console players are for the most part not interested/priced out of PC gaming and console for them is where it's always going to be at, so whether PS4 lasts 8 years, or brings out an updated console in 4, those gamers will pick console regardless (though not incremental upgrades yearly like most phone models, I think that would just piss off 90% of the userbase).

Will be very curious to see how it all plays out if this is true, which sounds more and more likely. (Though I don't see 4K gaming as being the main draw of this system as it just won't really be possible for all but the most basic of indies).
 
O

onQ123

Member
DavidDesu said:
If this does come to pass, I do wonder what the core impetus for the decision is. Had they heard talk of Microsoft going down this route so worked on their own implementation, was it a plan from the start, responding to consumers lust for the greatest specs etc.

I can't see Sony doing this completely as their own decision, it feels like a response to something. UNLESS it was the plan all along, to usher in a more iOS/Android style of system, with PlayStation as the OS, and the PS4 hardware facilitating the same range of games, with some added perks for those with the latest version of the hardware.

If it wasn't the plan all along is it really to counter Microsoft doing a similar thing?

I don't see Sony trying to battle against the PC gaming side of the equation. I think console players are for the most part not interested/priced out of PC gaming and console for them is where it's always going to be at, so whether PS4 lasts 8 years, or brings out an updated console in 4, those gamers will pick console regardless (though not incremental upgrades yearly like most phone models, I think that would just piss off 90% of the userbase).

Will be very curious to see how it all plays out if this is true, which sounds more and more likely. (Though I don't see 4K gaming as being the main draw of this system as it just won't really be possible for all but the most basic of indies).
Click to expand...

4K!
 
B

biglittleps

Member
MogCakes said:
That is a future I am definitely NOT down for. You want even more power, go PC.
Click to expand...

PC is not a Plug and Play for casual gamers. Also PC can't play PS4 exclusives. The power PS4.5 provides is to make hardcore gamers happy who want more performance/visuals from PS4 exclusives and PS VR games mostly, and this can help them to stop people moving to PC for high performance in 3rd party games a little.
 
N

NZNova

Member
Cool, call it the Playstation 4D.

0023_4m3p.gif


Splitting the userbase has historically never worked really well but the current gen of consoles really could use a bit more juice.
 
P

PrimeRib_

Member
I don't see a split on games when it comes to framerate, as devs may fear having split users would negatively imbalance multiplayer gameplay. Probably what would happen instead is pushing PQ in some way with the new SKU.

All in all, I'm not certain why so many are vehemently against the idea. It would very likely, affect nothing to the quality of games in development. We've experienced years of multigen environments to know devs would develop for the largest denominator (install base) and that would be the Xbone/PS4 for a long time, despite any new SKU. This would very likely, only bring higher resolution quality to the environments that need it (4K, VR, etc).
 
M

MogCakes

Member
biglittleps said:
PC is not a Plug and Play for casual gamers. Also PC can't play PS4 exclusives. The power PS4.5 provides is to make hardcore gamers happy who want more performance/visuals from PS4 exclusives and PS VR games mostly, and this can help them to stop people moving to PC for high performance in 3rd party games a little.
Click to expand...

Mmm. I don't see the point then if it's just to satisfy the hardcore's power lust. It won't deter people from gaming on PC either if that's what they want to do, the power gap is still large.
 
F

family_guy

Member
AmyS said:
Don't forget there's a big difference in needed GPU performance between upscaling games to 4K (like Nvidia's Dynamic Super Resolution and AMD's equivalent) and actually rendering native 4K resolution.
Click to expand...

We don't really need consoles to upscale anything. The TV will do it anyway and often better.
 
O

Obliterator

Member
Patrick Klepek said:
Hard to tell. Even though I've heard about this for a while, it's only at GDC that we felt comfortable pulling the trigger. That's how this always works--we're very careful. If I shared every whisper I heard, I'd sound a lot cooler.
Click to expand...

I for sure can understand being cautious and waiting till you have more 100% locked in info, and its one of the things I really respect about the journalism you guys do. Thanks again man and I appreciate all the hard work you guys are doing over there.
 
A

Arkham

The Amiga Brotherhood
-VipeR said:
This will not split the market , nor screw current adopters.

Have two consoles available . base model and PS4 elite.

PS4 Elite would run every base model game at 1080p/60fps with better Anti-Aliasing, (or 1080p/very stable 30fps with better graphics and anti aliasing for heavy games like witcher 3).
.
Click to expand...

That splits the market. The best case scenario for everyone is the 4K-ready iteration that outputs games upscaled/uprendered/rendered to 4K (and media, streaming) while 1920x1080 HD stays the same for PS4OG owners. Sony is going to tread very lightly so as not to make its existing base feel like they're missing out while giving the relatively small 4K base an upgrade option.
 
David Ricardo

David Ricardo

Member
PrimeRib_ said:
I don't see a split on games when it comes to framerate, as devs may fear having split users would negatively imbalance multiplayer gameplay. Probably what would happen instead is pushing PQ in some way with the new SKU.

All in all, I'm not certain why so many are vehemently against the idea. It would very likely, affect nothing to the quality of games in development. We've experienced years of multigen environments to know devs would develop for the largest denominator (install base) and that would be the Xbone/PS4 for a long time, despite any new SKU. This would very likely, only bring higher resolution quality to the environments that need it (4K, VR, etc).
Click to expand...

If the PS4.5 is a PS4 with a 3tf gpu (that's a big if, I know),

Whenever XBO.5+PS4.5+PC>3tf surpasses XBO+PS4+PC<2.5tf users, developers are going to star concentrating their efforts in the former group. Even sooner, as those who are willing to spend more on hardware are probably the same users that buy a lot of games.

Sony adding a console of their own in the >3tf pack is accelerating the obsolescence of the PS4. Why would they help kill their best selling console in the last decade? I don't know.
 
Fredrik

Fredrik

Member
NewOrder79 said:
Damn makes me want to sell my ps4 now and just wait for the new one it's not like there are a ton of games for it.
Click to expand...
You're touching on the biggest problem with this upgrade. If the rumour is true PS4 might actually get an upgrade before all the first wave first party games are out.
That is bad, real bad.

An upgrade this early will only make people hesitate on being there day 1 on future Playstation models, because why buy it day 1 when you know there might be another console out even before the AAA first party games are released. Sony need to seriously step up their output of first party games if they're going to succeed in this mid-gen upgrade model imo.

Edit: I just think the launch lineup plus some filler HD/4K remasters and a few mid size first party games until year 3 won't cut it with this business model. If this is the norm then it's better to wait 3 years before buying a new Playstation, especially if the consoles are backwards compatible and old games might benefit from a future upgrade aswell.
If you want the best version, which many of us obviously do, just look at the FaceOff discussions, then why be there day 1 for an inferior version? Remember the "day 365" posts and bad sales of TR:RotTR on XB1? Maybe we'll see something similar here. "Day PS4.5" or "Day .5" :p
 
P

PrimeRib_

Member
David Ricardo said:
If the PS4.5 is a PS4 with a 3tf gpu (that's a big if, I know),

Whenever XBO.5+PS4.5+PC>3tf surpasses XBO+PS4+PC<2.5tf users, developers are going to star concentrating their efforts in the former group. Even sooner, as those who are willing to spend more on hardware are probably the same users that buy a lot of games.

Sony adding a console of their own in the >3tf pack is accelerating the obsolescence of the PS4. Why would they help kill their best selling console in the last decade? I don't know.
Click to expand...

It's not accelerating obsolescence but rather creating a new market. Even if only existing PS4 owners purchased the new PS4.5, it stands to reason these users would purchase accessories and software, which are larger revenue drivers for Sony. But they've probably determined (and I'd agree) the market can withstand fragmenting. They stand to attract more users into the PlayStation ecosphere with completely new users (think Xbox gamers looking for a beefier game machine w 4K capabilities) in addition to early adopters (like those launch day fanatics). Either way, Sony wins by increasing overall penetration of PlayStation brand.
 
D

Daft Punk

Banned
RoboPlato said:
It wouldn't really be two versions. Same version runs on both. The higher end model might have a couple of tweaks like better shadows, less pop in, faster load times but I expect those to be minimal, if utilized at all. The main difference will be however this handles 4k output
Click to expand...

This is what I think will happen and quite honestly, I'm not seeing too big of a deal outside of people throwing a hissy fit that their system is getting an upgrade. I didn't see people acting like this over the new 3DS. They just fell in line and bought it.
 
Fredrik

Fredrik

Member
Daft Punk said:
This is what I think will happen and quite honestly, I'm not seeing too big of a deal outside of people throwing a hissy fit that their system is getting an upgrade. I didn't see people acting like this over the new 3DS. They just fell in line and bought it.
Click to expand...
Oh there was lots of talk about the New 3DS upgrade, especially since it launched with an exclusive as well and how it basically forced us to upgrade way too early (which in hindsite was a bit premature since there has been so few N3DS exclusives, and few other games gained from the upgrade).
But it's obviously easier to accept something like this if the price is lower, I doubt that Sony will hit N3DS prices with PS4.5, it'll likely launch at €300 or higher.
 
D

Daft Punk

Banned
Fredrik said:
Oh there was lots of talk about the New 3DS upgrade, especially since it launched with an exclusive as well and how it basically forced us to upgrade way too early (which in hindsite was a bit premature since there has been so few N3DS exclusives, and few other games gained from the upgrade).
But it's obviously easier to accept something like this if the price is lower, I doubt that Sony will hit N3DS prices with PS4.5, it'll likely launch at €300 or higher.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I upgraded from my OG 3DS to a New 3DS XL for MH4 and after that poof! Nothing. Feel kinda like a horse's ass after that one. :/
 
A

Alchemy

Member
I love the "higher framerate" being an extra bell and whistle you can just throw onto a game, like it isn't going to completely fucking break a ton of games physics set up. It isn't a knob you dial up when you want, if a game isn't built to be variable framerate it will completely explode if you adjust it up or down. A shitload of console games aren't built for this, which is why in the case of some PC ports (Saints Row 2 as an example), they're completely broken.
 
Z

Zoetis

Banned
-VipeR said:
I have discussed this to death in this in this thread :
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=194724020&highlight=#post194724020

Basically :


This will not split the market , nor screw current adopters.
From a business point of view this is actually a good idea. Look at phones and tablet. People buy them every year or two.


Have two consoles available . base model and PS4 elite.

PS4 Elite would run every base model game at 1080p/60fps with better Anti-Aliasing, (or 1080p/very stable 30fps with better graphics and anti aliasing for heavy games like witcher 3).
That would be the standard, No game is allowed to run below that, and every game released to the base ps4 must support this feature. (should be easy from a developing point of view). No game will ever only release on the elite.

So a stronger GPU/CPU with more RAM, and a possible bigger SSHD Drive.

Remember Bloodborne ? I'm playing it right now, Superb game, but it runs 30fps and it has jaggies all over the place. Image playing that game on your ps4 at 60fps with better anti aliasing (less jaggies) . you can play uncharted 4 at 60fps. Fallout4 ps4 at 60fps with better anti-aliasing.

Yes Sony is making a lot of money with the ps4, but releasing an elite version would only make them more money. Everyone who was going to buy a PS4 in 2016 can still buy it. Everyone who owns it can still play his games like nothing happened.

But enthusiasts ps4 gamers can now trade in their base ps4 for an elite one. High PC gamers who hate jaggies and low fps and want to play uncharted 4/bloodborne and the likes of ps4 exclusives, can now buy a PS4 elite.

This can also benefit PSVR games, and make them run better.

And it would allow for a longer lifespan for the ps4. PS5 released 5 years after the ps4 is not gonna have a significant jump. Thus the best time for a ps4 elite is halfway though the lifecycle. So 2016 or 2017 (since they have PSVR in 2016)

This whole thing can also act as an experiment for a possible two SKUs PS5 launch in the future (base and an elite) .

.
Click to expand...


no, sorry

existing ps4 is and will stay the primary console for the coming expected years, all what this new ps4 system will do is run ps4 games in 4k, graphical assets will be the same across both systems. Will there be some enhancements here and there sure, but that's the point of having a 4k set.
 
bitbydeath

bitbydeath

Member
Zoetis said:
no, sorry

existing ps4 is and will stay the primary console for the coming expected years, all what this new ps4 system will do is run ps4 games in 4k, graphical assets will be the same across both systems. Will there be some enhancements here and there sure, but that's the point of having a 4k set.
Click to expand...

So just an upscale of AAA games then?
 
M

MCasey

Member
Zoetis said:
no, sorry

existing ps4 is and will stay the primary console for the coming expected years, all what this new ps4 system will do is run ps4 games in 4k, graphical assets will be the same across both systems. Will there be some enhancements here and there sure, but that's the point of having a 4k set.
Click to expand...

So will the new ps4 produce a better framerate as well as a higher resolution?
So basically if I run game A that is 1080p at 30fps....
If I put it in this new ps4...will it do 4K at 30fps?
Will games start giving you Pc type graphic customization options?

Thanks
 
Z

Zoetis

Banned
MCasey said:
So will the new ps4 produce a better framerate as well as a higher resolution?
So basically if I run game A that is 1080p at 30fps....
If I put it in this new ps4...will it do 4K at 30fps?
Will games start giving you Pc type graphic customization options?

Thanks
Click to expand...

basically, but no options this is still a console
 
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