man your jumps to conclusions. Do you think hardware is assembled the way that there's a gigantic mechanical switch that only the likes of Thor and Hulk can move so you can go down from 4K/30fps to FHD/60? How about you wait what DEVELOPERS choose with their games?
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Kotaku: Sony is working on a PS4.5; briefing devs on plans for a more powerful PS4
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
man your jumps to conclusions. Do you think hardware is assembled the way that there's a gigantic mechanical switch that only the likes of Thor and Hulk can move so you can go down from 4K/30fps to FHD/60? How about you wait what DEVELOPERS choose with their games?
An entirely new system doesn't make much sense IMHO.
As many of you pointed out already, the new system will be most likely only upscaling games to 4K. So my guess is that the new PS4 will be a little more powerful in order to get rid of that extra power boosting box that comes with PS VR. Also I bet that it will be including a UHD-Blu-ray-player since Sony is still lacking a dedicated player so far. This might be a smart move - like they did with the PS3 and BD.
As many of you pointed out already, the new system will be most likely only upscaling games to 4K. So my guess is that the new PS4 will be a little more powerful in order to get rid of that extra power boosting box that comes with PS VR. Also I bet that it will be including a UHD-Blu-ray-player since Sony is still lacking a dedicated player so far. This might be a smart move - like they did with the PS3 and BD.
Sanctuary
Member
DEVELOPERS typically choose the route of most likely to generate sales; which is almost always graphics at the cost of everything else if they can keep it around (dips) 30fps. You're never going to see consoles operating at 60fps+ at 4k regularly for at least another decade. If even then. Given the option to play games at 1080p/60 or 4k/30, they will almost exclusively pick the latter unless it's a fighting game. By the time a 4k/60 console could happen, they would just choose to go with 8k/30. You know, because most TV progamming is at 30fps, and games need to be TV for that epic "TV experience".
amstradcpc
Member
A console yes, but you still should have the option to choose 1080p or 4K. Would be ridiculous it would play games in a 1080p TV downscaling the 4K version with poorer frame rates than the original PS4.
So 1080p60 should be and option.
Sanctuary
Member
Yep, that would be great. Something like that would also tack on an additional cost for that option, which a great many consumers simply don't care about. That would hurt sales, which is what it's all about in the end anyway. That's what actual PCs are for. You can choose to pay for bigger and better, or stick with your baseline.
veggiesaurus
Member
That's basically supersampling, which would also look pretty darn nice on a 1080p TV.
Does the 4K come from more compute units or is it a custom DSP/Accelerator on the chip made just for rendering PS4 in 4K?
amstradcpc
Member
Do games have better frame rates when you use the lower resolutions now?
No, and is a pity, I still use to play in a 720p TV.
The success of a ps4+ depends solely on one thing: the price of the normal ps4. If when this thing releases a ps4 has a really mass market price, all this points become moot. Right now people are skeptic cause in their mindset ps4 is the console powerhouse with the best graphics on any console, the futuristic console as it will support virtual reality, but if sony keeps its price high enough not to start being considered the mass market console, a ps4+ will be met with skepticism and disapproval. If it becomes the cheap console, the console that anyone can afford, then its perception changes...
It will depend all on how ps4 changes in the next year and that has almost everything ti do with its price.
It will depend all on how ps4 changes in the next year and that has almost everything ti do with its price.
bitbydeath
Member
Do games have better frame rates when you use the lower resolutions now?
Cometcrash worked at 60fps when the similar setting on the PS3 was 720p, but 30fps when that setting was 1080p (or auto on a 1080p tv)
But they are using Kotaku as a source of that entry.
I mean, I am not saying that I do not believe Kotaku (I do not want to but that is different) because Microsoft has already mentioned something similar and Nintendo did it with New 3DS. But I wanted to clarify that.
Krisprolls
Banned
It could start a PS4 console war between CheaPS4 console warriors and PS4.5 fanboys.
Well maybe that's the answer.
Side note: what if Xbox go the route of higher spec Windows 10 devices that play Xbox One/WUP games with better graphics vs PS4.5 playing PS4 games at higher resolution?
Wouldn't these Windows 10 devices come out on top for the people who haven't moved on to 4K tvs yet?
thetester77
Member
I'd be happy if true only because I am using my 20th anniversary console and that would give me an excuse to buy a new one and put the anniversary back in the box.
If I had the normal ps4 like I used to from launch then I'd be less keen especially as I have pre ordered PSVR so I would fall into the category of having to choose one or the other.
Either release this the week after e3 or they have to wait till next year or they will cannabalise VR sales
If I had the normal ps4 like I used to from launch then I'd be less keen especially as I have pre ordered PSVR so I would fall into the category of having to choose one or the other.
Either release this the week after e3 or they have to wait till next year or they will cannabalise VR sales
dodgykebaab
Banned
It just goes to show how many people dont apply logical thinking in situations like this. Look at the facts people:
1) The ONLY source for this story is Kotaku. A site that industry players are avoiding. And they are the ones with the inside knowledge?
2) Kotaku is about to die and a story like this (with no other site talking about it) will generate huge traffic. Smells like a last ditch cash grab to me.
3) Considering, they have zero evidence, no patent plans have been filed, no new trademarks registered, nothing. But people think this is coming soon? Based on what? Kotaku "over hearing a conversation"? Are you all mad?!
4) Sonys history with this sort of thing doesn't support this story. The twin stick PSP never happened, instead they made a whole new Vita machine.
It just goes to show how many people dont apply logical thinking in situations like this. Look at the facts people:
1) The ONLY source for this story is Kotaku. A site that industry players are avoiding. And they are the ones with the inside knowledge?
2) Kotaku is about to die and a story like this (with no other site talking about it) will generate huge traffic. Smells like a last ditch cash grab to me.
3) Considering, they have zero evidence, no patent plans have been filed, no new trademarks registered, nothing. But people think this is coming soon? Based on what? Kotaku "over hearing a conversation"? Are you all mad?!
4) Sonys history with this sort of thing doesn't support this story. The twin stick PSP never happened, instead they made a whole new Vita machine.
Sony should have denied this rumour already, and it's been going for days. But they did not.
Also, it makes sense for Sony to make a more VR capable console for two reasons. Ensure games at 60fps without drops, and staying competitive.
We may dont know exactly what, but something is clearly happening.
bitbydeath
Member
It just goes to show how many people dont apply logical thinking in situations like this. Look at the facts people:
1) The ONLY source for this story is Kotaku. A site that industry players are avoiding. And they are the ones with the inside knowledge?
2) Kotaku is about to die and a story like this (with no other site talking about it) will generate huge traffic. Smells like a last ditch cash grab to me.
3) Considering, they have zero evidence, no patent plans have been filed, no new trademarks registered, nothing. But people think this is coming soon? Based on what? Kotaku "over hearing a conversation"? Are you all mad?!
4) Sonys history with this sort of thing doesn't support this story. The twin stick PSP never happened, instead they made a whole new Vita machine.
What new market would this be targeting?
dodgykebaab
Banned
1) why do Sony need to make a statement every time Kotaku invents a story? If they did they would get nothing else done
2) "Clearly happening"? No. Not a single piece of evidence supports it.
1) why do Sony need to make a statement every time Kotaku invents a story? If they did they would get nothing else done
2) "Clearly happening"? No. Not a single piece of evidence supports it.
Wrong. We have evidences, just not proofs.
dodgykebaab
Banned
Hear say is not evidence. A patent would be evidence, rabid scribblings on a blog counts for nothing.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Think about what's coming, "they" are skipping ATSC 2 (XML, Blu-ray codec, XTV with interactive Java and Javascript commercials) for ATSC 3 (HTML5, HEVC UHD Blu-ray codec with XTV interactive commercials); ATSC 3, UHD Blu-ray with Digital bridge and Vidipath in home media sharing
For the most part ATSC 3 (4K TV) will be about 4 times as many channels/6mhz RF band displaying 720P and 1080P and XTV as well as Cell Phones supporting ATSC 3, It's not about 4K programming. Every cell phone mandated by the FCC to support ATSC 3 (4K antenna TV) and many more channels as well as the delivery mechanism supporting: smaller antennas because of multiple synchronized cell Phone like towers for TV, Robust reception in moving vehicles and inside buildings as well as being able to watch a program in a car across multiple TV stations for hundreds of miles on a given TV Network. This is a game changer for broadcast TV and I can see what are now traditional Cable TV stations moving to Antenna TV.
There is a need for a cheap 4K to 1080P Media Hub which we thought was going to be a XBOX 361 or 22nm PS3 (supporting ATSC 2). It's looking like those are not coming so a PS4 needs to fill that role. I'd speculate a PS4 @ $249 and a PS4.5 at $499 sometime around 2018 when Korea plans to support the Olympics with 4K Antenna TV. (XB1 and PS4 confirmed to support 4K media and XB1 confirmed supporting UHD Blu-ray which implies the PS4 can also. An examination of the UHD Blu-ray drive requirements support only a firmware update needed to 2013 drives).
All cable cutters and most Cable TV customers will have a small Antenna for ATSC 3 by 2020. Cable TV plans to move to all IPTV by 2018 served by a cable modem. The FCC has mandated a Downloadable Security scheme to replace the Cable card that will go into effect late 2017 which the XB1 and PS4 can support. By about the end of 2016 middle of 2017, Combo ATSC 1&3 Network tuners will be available and soon after Cable will be delivering programming via IPTV from the cable modem. A Media Hub (PS4 - XB1) will consolidate NRT/DVR and provide an easy to use access to IPTV delivered from a cable modem and a Antenna TV Network tuner at the same time.
They = Consumer Electronics and Microsoft; Sony is first a CE company with Microsoft and Sony very involved in Digital TV and UPnP/DLNA for over 20 years.
1) why do Sony need to make a statement every time Kotaku invents a story? If they did they would get nothing else done
2) "Clearly happening"? No. Not a single piece of evidence supports it.
A lot of media have already jumped into this, and this rumour took a lot of force.
It would be stupid not to denial it ASAP.
Uh oh, thank you. I haven't read that.
Sony can say whatever they want that we would be in the same situation, there is no smoke without fire…
Ouch, I became a fully member of Neogaf because of this thread.
2 sites with a not so credible source..
amstradcpc
Member
Well, seems mid 2015 AMD won a new semi custom SOC contract (undisclosed if gaming oriented) claimed to start generating revenue in the end of 2016:
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/amds-q415-earnings-review-whats-in-store-for-2016-cm568703
New Semi-Custom Wins To Generate Revenue In The Latter Part of 2016; New Products To Help AMD Regain Its Server Market Share in 2017
AMD's Q4 2015 Enterprise, Embedded and Semi-Custom revenue declined 23% sequentially as the Semi-Custom sales decreased from their third quarter seasonal peak. Nevertheless, the company reported record annual Semi-Custom unit shipments, shipping more than 50 million Semi-Custom APU's in 2015. AMD expects the demand for gaming consoles to remain strong through 2016, and remains on track to generate additional revenue from new Semi-Custom business in the second half of 2016.
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/amds-q415-earnings-review-whats-in-store-for-2016-cm568703
New Semi-Custom Wins To Generate Revenue In The Latter Part of 2016; New Products To Help AMD Regain Its Server Market Share in 2017
AMD's Q4 2015 Enterprise, Embedded and Semi-Custom revenue declined 23% sequentially as the Semi-Custom sales decreased from their third quarter seasonal peak. Nevertheless, the company reported record annual Semi-Custom unit shipments, shipping more than 50 million Semi-Custom APU's in 2015. AMD expects the demand for gaming consoles to remain strong through 2016, and remains on track to generate additional revenue from new Semi-Custom business in the second half of 2016.
That tidbit referring to the NX strikes me as more likely.
Do games have better frame rates when you use the lower resolutions now?
I don't think the screen resolution is related to the internal rendering res. It would be nice if it was, or if devs put the option in games.
Graphics Horse
Member
The AMD thing was much debated in previous NX speculation threads, most were settled on it meaning AMD making an Arm based soc for Nintendo but I am beginning to doubt that.
AMD said one Arm design and one x86 with at least one being 'beyond gaming' which could mean a custom Arm server chip with the other being a console iteration.
AMD said one Arm design and one x86 with at least one being 'beyond gaming' which could mean a custom Arm server chip with the other being a console iteration.
The more I think about this, the less sense of some of these rumors make. These are the options I can think of:
1) Entirely new APU with Zen, Polaris, and HBM including a thunderbolt 3.0 port to allow future GPU enhancements. It goes without saying they'll include UHD Bluray and HDMI 2.0.
Pros:
A) Zen will automatically nullify all CPU Bound situations.
B) The Polaris GPU will allow them to clock higher, and offer a 2.5X gain in performance.
1080p 60 can be universal across the board for current PS4 titles.
4K 30 will be an option for single player games.
VR titles running 1080p 60 on legacy PS4's "could potentially" run 1080p90 on PS4.5.
C) HBM will destroy all bandwith "concerns" and help save money in the long term.
D) Thunderbolt 3.0 port allows future expansion of GPUs.
Cons:
A) Waiting on AMD, HBM, TSMC, and factory yields to - "get their shit together"
B) Potentially fracturing user base without strong policies in place to protect current PS4 owners.
C) Introduce a new console and blunder good will while PS4 is still on fire.
2) Redesigning existing architecture, upclocking, and modifying components to "ideologically" claim 4K support. Hence- Slim PS4 with same APU, modified HDMI port, upclocking GPU/CPU, UHD Bluray support.
Pros:
A) Existing APU means no R&D required. Aseembly lines don't have to change, and parts are all recycled from older units.,
B) Prior PS4 owners won't feel "shafted". This might be an ideological and stupid "pro" but some of the overreactions here might be tempered.
C) Higher clocks will give slight boosts in performance and help avoid any frame rate drops for a more consistent 1080p/60 experience.
Cons:
A) Cannibalize PSVR Sales by launching Fall of this year
B) Desensitize consumers to newer PlayStation models and future iterations.
C) Amost a negligble increase in performance.
D) Higher clocks might increase instability?
So it boils down to this- release early with a marginal upgrade OR release later with a machine that actually is a PS4.5 (AKA 2-6X power of PS4).
1) Entirely new APU with Zen, Polaris, and HBM including a thunderbolt 3.0 port to allow future GPU enhancements. It goes without saying they'll include UHD Bluray and HDMI 2.0.
Pros:
A) Zen will automatically nullify all CPU Bound situations.
B) The Polaris GPU will allow them to clock higher, and offer a 2.5X gain in performance.
1080p 60 can be universal across the board for current PS4 titles.
4K 30 will be an option for single player games.
VR titles running 1080p 60 on legacy PS4's "could potentially" run 1080p90 on PS4.5.
C) HBM will destroy all bandwith "concerns" and help save money in the long term.
D) Thunderbolt 3.0 port allows future expansion of GPUs.
Cons:
A) Waiting on AMD, HBM, TSMC, and factory yields to - "get their shit together"
B) Potentially fracturing user base without strong policies in place to protect current PS4 owners.
C) Introduce a new console and blunder good will while PS4 is still on fire.
2) Redesigning existing architecture, upclocking, and modifying components to "ideologically" claim 4K support. Hence- Slim PS4 with same APU, modified HDMI port, upclocking GPU/CPU, UHD Bluray support.
Pros:
A) Existing APU means no R&D required. Aseembly lines don't have to change, and parts are all recycled from older units.,
B) Prior PS4 owners won't feel "shafted". This might be an ideological and stupid "pro" but some of the overreactions here might be tempered.
C) Higher clocks will give slight boosts in performance and help avoid any frame rate drops for a more consistent 1080p/60 experience.
Cons:
A) Cannibalize PSVR Sales by launching Fall of this year
B) Desensitize consumers to newer PlayStation models and future iterations.
C) Amost a negligble increase in performance.
D) Higher clocks might increase instability?
So it boils down to this- release early with a marginal upgrade OR release later with a machine that actually is a PS4.5 (AKA 2-6X power of PS4).
amstradcpc
Member
But in 2014 AMD already had won two semi customs contracts, one ARM based (the one everybody thinks is for Nintendo) and one X86 based (rumored to be for APPLE).
jeff_rigby
Banned
There are rumors that one of the new AMD Semi-Custom APUs is for a iMAC replacing the combo Intel APU and AMD dGPU and equally strong rumors that a more powerful Intel APU is going to do the same.
I personally think AMD has already won this as they are the cheaper and equally powerful if it's a Zen Polaris or cheaper and equally powerful with 28nm using more efficient technology like in Carizzo provided the OS properly uses the GPGPU as a CPU which a custom Apple OS can do.
Gaming Console sales have already dipped, VR will not increase sales significantly but casual games and Vidipath/ATSC 3/UHD Blu-ray/Video Chat will vastly increase the sales starting with PS4 Firmware 4.0 this October. The VR software stack also uses the 4K media software stack.
PS3 + Firmware 5.0 = 8 = PS4 + Firmware 4.0
1) why do Sony need to make a statement every time Kotaku invents a story? If they did they would get nothing else done
2) "Clearly happening"? No. Not a single piece of evidence supports it.
Every time Kotaku invents a story? So, you are saying it's a common occurence? Do you have any examples for fabricated stories handy, preferably not something that is 5 years old?
You are saying that industry players avoid Kotaku, but you ignore that the reason Kotaku is blacklisted by Ubisoft and Bethesda is due to the leaks they posted.
Really?
jeff_rigby
Banned
100% agree. Very insightful. I'd already speculated that ZEN with the new Onion buss could emulate the PS3 Cell just like the XB1 Jaguar with it's Custom interface to SRAM cache can emulate the older Power PC in the Xbox 360.
So the logic above means the rumor is about a PS5 (Zen Polaris HBM about 2018) which can run PS4 software and named PS4.5 to allow uses to understand it runs PS4 software.
amstradcpc
Member
Yeah, see my post above. It was rumored to be one of the 2014 semi custom contracts. The subject here is another contract was signed in middle 2015 for a 2016 end production of the SOC.
Could they do a 16nm APU this year?
I note that the rumour refers to an upgraded GPU, but nothing about the CPU. If the revision is aimed at resolution and effects boosts, they might hold the CPU to its current form - perhaps a clock uptick - and spend the rest of the available silicon on the GPU.
So one option might be - a 16nm 300-400mm^2 die, same CPU as now, with perhaps a clock bump, the rest of the silicon spent on GPU. Tie that to a HBM interface. That could get them into the 2x-4x PS4 range. Would that be possible this year for $499?
(If it's 2017, which is more likely I guess, other avenues might unlock too. But a year of these rumours prior to release wouldn't be very helpful...)
amstradcpc
Member
It seems so:
http://wccftech.com/amd-14nm-cpu-apu-gpu-zen-arctic-islands-globalfoundries/
AMD Confirms 14nm CPUs, GPUs And APUs For 2016 Working Samples Delivered By Globalfoundries
Globalfoundries confirmed today that they have successfully qualified the 14LPP process and delivered working 14nm product samples to AMD. Both companies confirmed via a release issued to the press today that AMD will be introducing CPU, APU and GPU products next year based on Globalfoundries most advanced 14nm FinFET process technology dubbed 14LPP.
pixellated_man
Member
I largely feel the same way. Add to that my love for Sony first / second party games (ps3 was a better console for me than xbox 360 mainly because of this) and the fact that psvr is the cheapest high quality entry point into vr gaming aaaand my preference for physical media (resaleable, easy to share with family & friends, ownership) which all adds up to why I will stick around with console gaming. Iterative consoles doesn't change any of the things I've mentioned. In fact having a mid gen upgrade gives me the choice to keep up with technology better...although I would hate yearly or bi annnual upgrades. That would be too much. Even then, I'll just ignore the upgrades for a few years and only exchange my console when I feel it's worth it for me. You know, just like pc users do.
No, a PS5 would have games specifically made for it. If these things are to believed, PS4.5 won't. All games will be for PS4, but run at higher fidelity on ps4.5.