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80 killed in Nice, France terrorist attack: truck into crowd, gunfire,"Stay indoors"
- Thread starter Angel_DvA
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Wow
A number of things happened. For one, people are now actually able to read the scripture. This, much like the Reformation, has prompted lots of people to reject the interpreted teachings of the clergy and go back to 'the core', a core which is obviously much more violent than modern interpretations. Also, you can easily go online and find other cool people. One person becomes a console warrior, the other an Islam warrior.
But two events in the previous century have precipitated a major change.
Oil, making the backwards culture of insular desert people suddenly more loud and prevalent than the more cosmopolitan Muslims in Turkey and Bosnia.
And the Islamic Revolution in Iran. Much like Christianity during the Soviet times, religion has a way of channeling people against dictators. The strong and immutable visage of Khomeini had an incredible pull on Muslims everywhere who felt they were not where they were supposed to be (i.e. as chosen people of God to rule over the other peoples, instead of being bullied around by their leaders and the west). This inflamed the ancient Sunni/Shia schism, because a certain recently very rich country who felt themselves the seat of Sunni Islam, saw the Shia become much more popular and 'more Islamic' in the eyes of the common folk. This engendered a long cold war over who was the more hardcore of true Islam. And that got exported.
I think that if the US boycotts Iran for exporting terrorism, then we should be calling a spade a spade and ban Salafi Islam as a hate group.
Orthogonal
Member
You do realize that the Crusades was a Christian response after hundreds of years of Muslims invading and conquering Christian territory that they eventually fought and repelled them back to their own lands. It was very much a defensive effort.
You said it was archaic in the grand scheme of Christianity. If modern social liberalism is our standard for "archaicness", then Catholicism doesn't really stick out against its peers. It arguably actually does better than many, since (by necessity, being a huge entity sprawled across many changing societies) it tries to stay relatively "safe" and center in order to retain its stature.
Monocle
Member
Pretty much.
But don't forget: people can't figure out how to be good without religion. Without religion there is no absolute morality, or something.
BTW, wasn't there a poll that said that in the US atheists are trusted less than rapists? God damn, some people sure are dumb.
That's deep dude. Maybe when the next Rwanda or Darfur or invasion of Koweit happens we should let it unfolds and things will resolve peacefully on their own.
KonradLaw
Member
There's so many muslim people with migrant backgrounds in EU now that such attacks will soon become common place. It will only get worse, as each new generation is getting more and more radicalized. And every terror attack or even regular crime will just strenghten the hate against islam, which in turn will help radicalize even more people, thus creating a circle of bigger and bigger violence.
I'm selfishly glad that there's very few muslims in my country and even those who are here are in large part native european tatars and the population of muslims in Poland is projected to actually drop till 2030.
I'm selfishly glad that there's very few muslims in my country and even those who are here are in large part native european tatars and the population of muslims in Poland is projected to actually drop till 2030.
univariate
Banned
Is there a reason why you're asking me that? It has nothing to do with my post.
Night Angel
Member
Become liberals if not leave the religion entirely.
Get their families, friends to become more liberal.
Fight for separation of religion and politics.
Drag the radicals kicking and screaming into the 21st century?
If there were simple answers, religion in general wouldn't have been and continued to be such an obstacle for more liberal societies.
One of the big problems is that moderate and liberal sects don't have tons of support, unlike more conservative sects which have places like Saudi Arabia throwing hundreds of millions if not billions their way.
Monocle
Member
If history tells us one thing, it's that all human rights progress was won by passive resistance. That's a 100% true fact.
Don't try to verify it or anything.
You know what I did when I wasn't happy with how my religion handled equality for example? I left the religion. Are you allowed to do the same? Ever thought it might help? Enough people leaving will always make change happen.
If I recall correctly the US civil war that ended slavery was pretty peaceful.
Saudi money is responsible for a good chunk of it. They've been exporting Wahhabi ideology for decades.
Way to reinforce the stereotype of Poles being racist xenophobes.
Considering that's illegal in quite a few countries, good luck with that.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I don't think you can treat a religion like a political party.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
It's self-preservation to an extent. Devout Islamic beliefs are incompatible with secular Western societies.
Religion has nothing to do with racism, you're making yourself look silly. If integration hasn't worked in Europe, I don't think the guy is being racist for stating it.
This is not how things work. You need to be progressive from within.
Stereogatari
Banned
It's not THAT big of a worry. Most Muslim origin people only identify as Muslim as a form of identity. They don't take it seriously thankfully.
The worry is letting Extreme Islamist organisations get a foothold within Muslim neighbourhoods.
Turkish community has Imams that go through Turkish State training and all sermons are from the same source: The State. This means Turks are not at a risk of radicalisation because you can't just get an Islamist Exteemist organisation fuck things up. The State version of Islam in Turkey is soft and benign. The modern Christianity of Islam I'd call it lol.
Most other Muslim majority ethnic groups don't have this. So it's a free for all and Islamist Extremists get involved too. Usually from Saudi origin Wahhabism.
So this is how you solve the problem.
I think there is no one in this thread is denying that the Qu'ran can be interpreted in a way that is problematic. So what do we do now we know this?
Well I left the religion I was raised with too. My parents are Muslim. You however can't force people to leave. Which is the crux of the issue. I don't think people should have to leave their religion either. As you can imagine I have a lots of Muslim friends and they are well adjusted and are not homophobic either (I do think homophobia is still a major issue even among moderate Muslims).
Yeah it would be nice if that would happen, but how do you propose we make this happen.
I'll also point out that the one fighting Islamic extremist the hardest are Muslims and they are the ones that suffer the most. The Extremism in the west is incomparable to the shit that actually happens in Islamic countries.
At least in my country we have imams on TV talking how being gay shouldn't be allowed in our Nordic country. They also want sharia here. That doesn't seem compatible with our western values at all to me.
Really? Then please enlighten me, how effective have the been the Western methods of combating terror? Years of bombing AQ and then ISIS in Iraq and elsewhere have proven worthless.
FYI, the West has been sending tons of weaponry for the Saudis to combat the Houthis in Yemen, the Houthis were the most effective group in fighting AQ in Yemen, up until the Saudi intervention, now AQ is close to declaring its own Islamic state there.
Until you turn off the source of terror, the Saudi regime, you're not going to change anything, some other group will just take ISIS's place with their own Caliph or emir or whatever.
Benzychenz
Member
I'm going on a trip to Europe in a month and Nice is one of the places I'm visiting.
Hearing stories like this all the time is really freaking me out.
Hearing stories like this all the time is really freaking me out.
This. Modern Islam needs a secular and liberal reform movement. There needs to be a dialogue about the Islamists and fundamentalist Muslims that are the root of the ideologies fueling ISIS. Sticking our heads in the sand claiming that these attacks have nothing to do with Islam is what people are doing. No idea should be above criticism. Islamists and terrorists are taking an all too literal interpretation of the Koran. They are true believers in their eyes. And this is my problem with religion in general. That people can pick and choose which passages to agree/disagree with and ignore all the bad parts. It's silly.
KonradLaw
Member
In Europe it';s objectively better for a country to have low population of muslims. Every single country in EU has completely failed at integrating this group and lack of itegration breeds resentment from both sides as well as poverty for muslim, which in turn is perfect fuel to get people radicalized.
And considering this stereotype (alongside relative lack of wealth compared to Germany, UK or Sweden) is one of the thing that's keeping muslim migration out of Poland, maybe it's not such a bad thing such stereotype exists.
MistakenMobius
Member
Why?
It's true that frequency of Muslim terror attack is increasing with the augmentation of Muslim population in Europe.
It's a factual observation
Stereogatari
Banned
Devout Islam is literally the antithesis of the West. Think of all the stereotypical aspects of Western Culture. All haraam. Skepticism, enquiry, criticism, free expression, alcohol freely flowing, dancing, male and females together, female freedom.
Most Muslims I know are more Western than Muslim. But really their "Muslimness" is a form of identity and they don't take it seriously. If they took it seriously...
Pretty sure Isis have killed more Muslims than westerners, not sure why the media makes it out to be Islam vs the world.
We're on the same boat. I decided to cancel and just peace out for the rest of 2016 at home.
It's incredibly frustrating having to shoulder the blame. A lot of us hate terrorists just as much as you (not you obviously, but the people blaming us) ffs, I'm a muslim tourist from South East Asia, what the fuck do you expect me to do?
My 12 year old cousin and his little sister just got bullied for being muslim and were told to "go back to your country". They're not terrorists, they're children in Frozen costumes.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Except for unfortunate incidents like the Rhineland massacres, right? Please.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/muslims-are-not-a-race_b_8591660.html
You have a bigger chance being killed by your couch, don't worry.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
you have republicans/christians saying gay people shouldn't get married and transgendered people cant go to a bathroom they identify with.
seems to fit right in with "our western values" if you realize the hypocrisy of the statement.
My heart goes out to the victims and their families.wow you really are a bigot. A country is better the less Muslims in it? Maybe it's a good thing to be a xenophobe to keep the Muslims away? This is just astounding to read. Are you aware of what you are saying?
That is utterly ridiculous. I am Muslim, well-integrated, well-educated and I live in a Nordic country as well. Living in a western secular country and being a Muslim is not a problem whatsoever.
Now, there are surely some shitty imams thinking they live in 1910 Cairo, that doesn't mean that people listen to them.
And this sharia stuff is bs, always the same lie. "They want sharia in Sweden", well ask around.
See, this is the kind of hateful shit that people should be outraged of, not the critics on the concept of a religion. That's what is harmful, generalising hate for the people based on their religion, not the fact that that religion's concept are questioned.
Poland seems to be a good ground for bigots. I wonder if it has to do with the education or the Catholicism.
Burgess_101
Member
What a joke, are you reading the shit you are typing out? You want your country to be seen as racist/xenophobic because you are scared of muslims?
| Praxis |
Banned
I'm not sure how anyone can still deny that there are very real problems within this religion. Or at least not have to constantly state that not all Muslims are terrorists. We know that, the majority just want peaceful lives like anyone else, sadly the minority of this religion are one of the biggest issues we face when it comes to fanatics. They kill the innocent and enable other (right wing) fanatics to spread their hate.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Really, you're comparing that to widespread support for prison or the death penalty for homosexuality? And for Sharia law?
This might be the first time I have ever seen someone defend the Crusades.
KonradLaw
Member
Europe is too tolerant in this regard unfortunately. The fact that it allows radical imams to preach, it allows them to take over mosques and it allows damn Saudi Arabia to fund building new ones is completely crazy. Even if you have a moderate muslim population in a country if you let such imams roam free they can radicalize at least a part of that population.
I mean crap..the guys who did the Paris terror attacks just a year before were getting drunk, smoked weed etc. Which shows just how fast you can radicalize people if you know how.
Stereogatari
Banned
My country, Turkey, would be so much better with less Muslims. In Turkey the areas with less Muslims (well less religious Muslims, but I don't think of them as Muslim) are the best, most fun, most chill places.
MistakenMobius
Member
The US has Racial tension because you have a mono cultural society but multi ethnic.
We in Europe have a multi cultural society that leads to clash.
And it is not just Muslim, it's French speaking people in Wallonia, it is Catholic and Protestant in Northern Ireland. Our many regional identity that wants to break off.
You shouldn't see everything via your us centric view
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