• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Xbox Project Scorpio Announced - 6TFlops, 320GB/s - Fall 2017

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Liabe Brave

Member
blue_phazon said:
didn't they say supersampling was done by the hardware? it should be for any game that's above 1080p then
Click to expand...
Yes, but only patched games can go above 1080p. Supersampling thus will not be present for all games. In fact, because we're deep into the gen and the back catalog is sizeable, it will likely be years before even a bare majority of titles are downsampled.

JaggedSac said:
Would be easier to say that any game rendering above 1080p will have supersampling. This includes patched games and what will likely be the majority going forward, any newly released games.
Click to expand...
I think the only reasonable expectation for the pattern of Scorpio support--until we see otherwise--is that it will look very much like PS4 Pro support. That would mean most previously released titles will not be patched. Of those that are, the great majority will have higher-res and downsampling, but not all; a few devs will opt for increased effects at 1080p. For the first year at least, the majority of new games will not have support either. But that's mostly due to smaller-scale titles, and big retail releases generally will support Scorpio (with the occasional exception).
 
G

ganaconda

Member
Kssio_Aug said:
I think no one can tell you that just yet. Actually, there's not even a proper answer for those who OWNS a 4K TV. We will have to wait, so we can see what the console can do by itself, without patches, and how many devs will support their games with a proper patch.

Apparently the console will do some improvements without patches; which is great:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-project-scorpio-tech-revealed

But we also don't know how substantial those upgrades will be.
Click to expand...

I'm sure we don't have the full details yet, but we do know something about how unpatched games will see improvements based on the Eurogamer reveal.

1. "Boost Mode" like PS4 Pro except always turned on and using the full capabilities of the system whereas PS4 Pro only upclocked the CPU, upclocked half the GPU, and uses the additional memory bandwidth. The other half of the GPU is completely unused on the PS4 Pro in Boost Mode. As already mentioned, this leads to games sticking to to their target frame rate, running at much higher frame rates if frame rates are unlocked, and sticking to their maximum resolution if they are using a dynamic resolution system.

2. Faster load times. The extra 3 GB of RAM that is known to not be in use for an unpatched game is smartly used as a RAM drive. Also the faster CPU is utilized to improve this even further in addition to 50% more bandwidth from the HDD itself over the XB1's hard drive.

3. Automatic 16x AF implemented at a system level making for clearer textures.

4. Screen tearing eliminated. They are implementing a system level VSync like they do for XB1 on Xbox 360 BC games.

5. Better GameDVR. Higher quality screen captures, now at 1080P/60 instead of 720P/30. And the ability to go back frame by frame through a GameDVR clip to find the best screenshot you want from that clip. Scorpio games will record at 4K/60.

All of the above will apply to Xbox 360 BC games as well.

As far as the super sampling goes. That is done at a system level as well, but only for games that are running in a Scorpio 4k or high res (if not 4k) mode. If you're on a 1080P TV, the system will automatically do supersampling so the devs don't have to. This has actually been a problem on PS4 Pro as some devs have been lazy and decided not to implement supersampling.

To be clear, the system level supersampling is only done for games with a Scorpio high res mode or what you're calling patched. It wouldn't even make sense for it to supersample on old XB1 games that were not patched to have a Scorpio mode as there would not be a higher resolution to supersample from. The max any XB1 game targets is 1080P.
 
Kssio_Aug

Kssio_Aug

Member
ganaconda said:
I'm sure we don't have the full details yet, but we do know something about how unpatched games will see improvements based on the Eurogamer reveal.

1. "Boost Mode" like PS4 Pro except always turned on and using the full capabilities of the system whereas PS4 Pro only upclocked the CPU, upclocked half the GPU, and uses the additional memory bandwidth. The other half of the GPU is completely unused on the PS4 Pro in Boost Mode. As already mentioned, this leads to games sticking to to their target frame rate, running at much higher frame rates if frame rates are unlocked, and sticking to their maximum resolution if they are using a dynamic resolution system.

2. Faster load times. The extra 3 GB of RAM that is known to not be in use for an unpatched game is smartly used as a RAM drive. Also the faster CPU is utilized to improve this even further in addition to 50% more bandwidth from the HDD itself over the XB1's hard drive.

3. Automatic 16x AF implemented at a system level making for clearer textures.

4. Screen tearing eliminated. They are implementing a system level VSync like they do for XB1 on Xbox 360 BC games.

5. Better GameDVR. Higher quality screen captures, now at 1080P/60 instead of 720P/30. And the ability to go back frame by frame through a GameDVR clip to find the best screenshot you want from that clip. Scorpio games will record at 4K/60.

All of the above will apply to Xbox 360 BC games as well.

As far as the super sampling goes. That is done at a system level as well, but only for games that are running in a Scorpio 4k or high res (if not 4k) mode. If you're on a 1080P TV, the system will automatically do supersampling so the devs don't have to. This has actually been a problem on PS4 Pro as some devs have been lazy and decided not to implement supersampling.

To be clear, the system level supersampling is only done for games with a Scorpio high res mode or what you're calling patched. It wouldn't even make sense for it to supersample on old XB1 games that were not patched to have a Scorpio mode as there would not be a higher resolution to supersample from. The max any XB1 game targets is 1080P.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this summary! Scorpio seems to be an interesting hardware, let's hope for a good price so people can really find benefit in buying it, even with 1080p displays.
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
ganaconda said:
This has actually been a problem on PS4 Pro as some devs have been lazy and decided not to implement supersampling.
Click to expand...
I'm a bit suspicious what happened with supersample in Pro. First-party devs released it but late was asked to remove it.

I believe (or peharps hope) Sony asked to remove supersampling because they are working in a system level option (as Boost Mode) for all patched Pro games... if that is true it will probably be reveled at E3 with 5.00 firmware.
 
S

Synth

Member
ethomaz said:
I'm a bit suspicious what happened with supersample in Pro. First-party devs released it but late was asked to remove it.

I believe (or peharps hope) Sony asked to remove supersampling because they are working in a system level option (as Boost Mode) for all patched Pro games... if that is true it will probably be reveled at E3 with 5.00 firmware.
Click to expand...

Why would they have the option in a first party release like Horizon, if they were going around asking thrid-parties to pull the option out? That seems silly.

Even if it becomes an OS-level feature, the currently available options will just be redundant (unless the user specifically wants to opt for 1080p for that particular game). There's no harm in them being there.
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
Synth said:
Why would they have the option in a first party release like Horizon, if they were going around asking thrid-parties to pull the option out? That seems silly.

Even if it becomes an OS-level feature, the currently available options will just be redundant (unless the user specifically wants to opt for 1080p for that particular game). There's no harm in them being there.
Click to expand...
I don't know but not just one game released the Pro patch with supersample to remove it after few weeks.
 
A

Albert Penello

Member
ganaconda said:
I'm sure we don't have the full details yet, but we do know something about how unpatched games will see improvements based on the Eurogamer reveal.

1. "Boost Mode" like PS4 Pro except always turned on and using the full capabilities of the system whereas PS4 Pro only upclocked the CPU, upclocked half the GPU, and uses the additional memory bandwidth. The other half of the GPU is completely unused on the PS4 Pro in Boost Mode. As already mentioned, this leads to games sticking to to their target frame rate, running at much higher frame rates if frame rates are unlocked, and sticking to their maximum resolution if they are using a dynamic resolution system.

2. Faster load times. The extra 3 GB of RAM that is known to not be in use for an unpatched game is smartly used as a RAM drive. Also the faster CPU is utilized to improve this even further in addition to 50% more bandwidth from the HDD itself over the XB1's hard drive.

3. Automatic 16x AF implemented at a system level making for clearer textures.

4. Screen tearing eliminated. They are implementing a system level VSync like they do for XB1 on Xbox 360 BC games.

5. Better GameDVR. Higher quality screen captures, now at 1080P/60 instead of 720P/30. And the ability to go back frame by frame through a GameDVR clip to find the best screenshot you want from that clip. Scorpio games will record at 4K/60.

All of the above will apply to Xbox 360 BC games as well.

As far as the super sampling goes. That is done at a system level as well, but only for games that are running in a Scorpio 4k or high res (if not 4k) mode. If you're on a 1080P TV, the system will automatically do supersampling so the devs don't have to. This has actually been a problem on PS4 Pro as some devs have been lazy and decided not to implement supersampling.

To be clear, the system level supersampling is only done for games with a Scorpio high res mode or what you're calling patched. It wouldn't even make sense for it to supersample on old XB1 games that were not patched to have a Scorpio mode as there would not be a higher resolution to supersample from. The max any XB1 game targets is 1080P.
Click to expand...

This is all correct. Perhaps the biggest surprise (for me anyway) has been supersampling and how much better the game can look then native 1080. There was a good video on YouTube doing a bunch of comparisons at various resolutions.

But yes for those confused, supersampling (obviously) only works on games designed to be enhanced for Scorpio and running above 1080 get that feature.
 
T

Theorry

Member
Albert Penello said:
This is all correct. Perhaps the biggest surprise (for me anyway) has been supersampling and how much better the game can look then native 1080. There was a good video on YouTube doing a bunch of comparisons at various resolutions.

But yes for those confused, supersampling (obviously) only works on games designed to be enhanced for Scorpio and running above 1080 get that feature.
Click to expand...

So its done by the system automatically right? If a game has 4k res and you use on a 1080p it will supersample without work for the dev itself? I am sure it is. But he now you are here haha.
Because thats great for me as a 1080p monitor user still. Not planning on upgrading yet.
 
C

cakely

Member
Theorry said:
So its done by the system automatically right? If a game has 4k res and you use on a 1080p it will supersample without work for the dev itself? I am sure it is. But he now you are here haha.
Because thats great for me as a 1080p monitor user still. Not planning on upgrading yet.
Click to expand...

Yes, but as Albert says ... the game will need a Scorpio patch to run at resolutions above 1080p. Once the game has a patch, supersampling for 1080p displays will be handled automatically.

I wish this was a feature on the PS4 Pro. I hope there's a chance that it might get it.
 
G

GANGSTERKILLER

Member
Albert Penello said:
This is all correct. Perhaps the biggest surprise (for me anyway) has been supersampling and how much better the game can look then native 1080. There was a good video on YouTube doing a bunch of comparisons at various resolutions.

But yes for those confused, supersampling (obviously) only works on games designed to be enhanced for Scorpio and running above 1080 get that feature.
Click to expand...

Hey Albert, Scorpio is doing lots of things at a system level, that's great. But can you choose between resolution and framerate? Native 4K is really nice BUT if i can have 1080p with 60fps i will always go for the latter...

That is something my PS4 Pro doesn't provide right out of the gate. Only happens (not always!) when devs put effort in a "Pro" patch.
Rise of the Tomb Raider, Hitman and The Surge are showing how it's done.
 
B

blue_phazon

Member
GANGSTERKILLER said:
Hey Albert, Scorpio is doing lots of things at a system level, that's great. But can you choose between resolution and framerate? Native 4K is really nice BUT if i can have 1080p with 60fps i will always go for the latter...

That is something my PS4 Pro doesn't provide right out of the gate. Only happens (not always!) when devs put effort in a "Pro" patch.
Click to expand...

I think something like that will be up to the dev. You would probably have to choose a mode within the game itself.
 
SenjutsuSage

SenjutsuSage

Banned
I'm still wondering what new games are going to be there. Been so excited about Scorpio I've been purposely not gaming much at all on the current Xbox One, because I want to play everything on Scorpio, even my existing games.
 
L

Liabe Brave

Member
ganaconda said:
1. "Boost Mode" like PS4 Pro except always turned on and using the full capabilities of the system....
Click to expand...
Albert Penello said:
This is all correct.
Click to expand...
So have you changed the way this works? Because what was announced to Digital Foundry was that Scorpio will try to use its full capabilities on unpatched games. But, if there are unexpected issues due to the engine being tuned for prior Xbox Ones, Scorpio will turn off portions of the upgrade, or in the worst-case scenario turn off all upgrades, in order to restore proper function.

It was not explained whether this will be accomplished by a runtime profiler, or if there would be a global blacklist/"greylist" maintained by Microsoft via universal testing. But either way, this approach would mean that Scorpio's "boost mode" will not always be turned on or using the system's full capabilities.

So did you mistakenly say this was correct, or has the approach changed? Do you now plan to always use the full Scorpio capabilities, without analyzing whether they cause issues with legacy software?
 
D

Detective

Member
Albert Penello said:
This is all correct. Perhaps the biggest surprise (for me anyway) has been supersampling and how much better the game can look then native 1080. There was a good video on YouTube doing a bunch of comparisons at various resolutions.

But yes for those confused, supersampling (obviously) only works on games designed to be enhanced for Scorpio and running above 1080 get that feature.
Click to expand...

Hi Albert, So glad you could come here and give us more info . Can't wait to buy it.

Appreciate your feedback:)
 
G

gamz

Member
Albert Penello said:
This is all correct. Perhaps the biggest surprise (for me anyway) has been supersampling and how much better the game can look then native 1080. There was a good video on YouTube doing a bunch of comparisons at various resolutions.

But yes for those confused, supersampling (obviously) only works on games designed to be enhanced for Scorpio and running above 1080 get that feature.
Click to expand...

Thanks for any and all the information you provide. Really excited about the unveiling of this beast next Sunday.

Keep up the good work!
 
A

Albert Penello

Member
Liabe Brave said:
So have you changed the way this works? Because what was announced to Digital Foundry was that Scorpio will try to use its full capabilities on unpatched games. But, if there are unexpected issues due to the engine being tuned for prior Xbox Ones, Scorpio will turn off portions of the upgrade, or in the worst-case scenario turn off all upgrades, in order to restore proper function.

It was not explained whether this will be accomplished by a runtime profiler, or if there would be a global blacklist/"greylist" maintained by Microsoft via universal testing. But either way, this approach would mean that Scorpio's "boost mode" will not always be turned on or using the system's full capabilities.

So did you mistakenly say this was correct, or has the approach changed? Do you now plan to always use the full Scorpio capabilities, without analyzing whether they cause issues with legacy software?
Click to expand...

You're both right. The notion is correct - by default games can take advantage of Scorpio's additional performance, and if there is a problem we whitelist the game. I'm not aware of any games whitelisted so far.

So the approach is basically that every game will take advantage by default, and we'll intervene if there is a problem. But I felt in the spirit of his summary his post was correct.

Clearly most of you guys understand, but to be clear a game had to be built a certain way to get any advantage. Basically the games with variable Framerate or Resolution will see improvements, much like they did between Xbox One and Xbox One S.

Beyond that, we have the faster HDD + CPU to improve load times, AF, etc. which means, on the whole, games you already have on Xbox One should be better in some way on Scorpio.
 
A

Albert Penello

Member
GANGSTERKILLER said:
Hey Albert, Scorpio is doing lots of things at a system level, that's great. But can you choose between resolution and framerate? Native 4K is really nice BUT if i can have 1080p with 60fps i will always go for the latter...

That is something my PS4 Pro doesn't provide right out of the gate. Only happens (not always!) when devs put effort in a "Pro" patch.
Rise of the Tomb Raider, Hitman and The Surge are showing how it's done.
Click to expand...

This kind of choice will be up to developers to implement.
 
E

El_Chino

Member
Albert Penello said:
You're both right. The notion is correct - by default games can take advantage of Scorpio's additional performance, and if there is a problem we whitelist the game. I'm not aware of any games whitelisted so far.

So the approach is basically that every game will take advantage by default, and we'll intervene if there is a problem. But I felt in the spirit of his summary his post was correct.

Clearly most of you guys understand, but to be clear a game had to be built a certain way to get any advantage. Basically the games with variable Framerate or Resolution will see improvements, much like they did between Xbox One and Xbox One S.

Beyond that, we have the faster HDD + CPU to improve load times, AF, etc. which means, on the whole, games you already have on Xbox One should be better in some way on Scorpio.
Click to expand...
🤔
 
L

Liabe Brave

Member
Albert Penello said:
You're both right. The notion is correct - by default games can take advantage of Scorpio's additional performance, and if there is a problem we whitelist the game. I'm not aware of any games whitelisted so far.

So the approach is basically that every game will take advantage by default, and we'll intervene if there is a problem. But I felt in the spirit of his summary his post was correct.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for the clarification, makes sense.

So just to confirm, the way this is being handled is by running tests on games offline, and making "tailored performance profiles" for them on Scorpio if by chance they go wonky under full power? There's hundreds of Xbox One games that will need to be tested. How long do you currently expect this process to take? How often will you push blacklist updates out to players? Will the profiles start being bundled with all downloads or installations? Will you retest every unpatched game whenever there are performance patches to Scorpio that could change how they behave?

Sorry for the numerous questions, but this was an interesting aspect of compatibility that wasn't touched on very deeply in the initial reveal. I also suspect it won't take much time onstage prior to E3, since it's not a very sexy or photogenic topic. Just interested in how the approach will work, and thanks in advance for your time!
 
H

hanspampel

Banned
Albert Penello said:
[...]

Beyond that, we have the faster HDD + CPU to improve load times, AF, etc. which means, on the whole, games you already have on Xbox One should be better in some way on Scorpio.
Click to expand...

Faster HDD = 7,2000RPM instead of 5,400? or a faster SATA III interface instead of SATA II?
or even both?


possible option to swap the internal HDD?
or do i already ask to much and better come back to you in 1 week ;)
 
Sikamikanico

Sikamikanico

#1 Dad
Albert Penello said:
I totally am. Been attending reviews all week and there will be some cool stuff. Of course *I* would say that. We'll see what you guys think in a week :)
Click to expand...

Excellent stuff. I think it's evident that the majority feel that perhaps we know everything you guys are gonna show off already, so I'm intrigued to see if surprises are gonna be coming our way!

Thanks for the response.
 
A

Albert Penello

Member
Liabe Brave said:
Thank you very much for the clarification, makes sense.

So just to confirm, the way this is being handled is by running tests on games offline, and making "tailored performance profiles" for them on Scorpio if by chance they go wonky under full power? There's hundreds of Xbox One games that will need to be tested. How long do you currently expect this process to take? How often will you push blacklist updates out to players? Will the profiles start being bundled with all downloads or installations? Will you retest every unpatched game whenever there are performance patches to Scorpio that could change how they behave?

Sorry for the numerous questions, but this was an interesting aspect of compatibility that wasn't touched on very deeply in the initial reveal. I also suspect it won't take much time onstage prior to E3, since it's not a very sexy or photogenic topic. Just interested in how the approach will work, and thanks in advance for your time!
Click to expand...

This is probably not something we'll get into detail about in terms of how it works beyond what we said to DF. And I'm personally not that closely involved with the test team on how this is going to be implemented.

We have been testing continuously (even simulations) since before the chip was built. We talked a lot about how the SOC was built based on the needs of existing game code.

Xbox One S launch was a good test for SW resiliency and even that minor boost told us a lot. So our approach was to build a box where the games would run, and *if* we detect a problem we can allow the game to run without the extra power.
 
A

Albert Penello

Member
hanspampel said:
it's personally my biggest complain about xbox one
a windows pc with ssd feels so much faster and smoother. i just want that same experience on console, too

and every step in that direction is a good one
Click to expand...

I'm curious - do you have an external HDD connected? If not, give it a try.

We've tested a lot of HDD configurations, but on the whole, moving your games to an external HDD, and leave the internal for system resources, provides probably the best overall load time experience - even faster than an internal SSD in many cases.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

An Xbox VR headset is on the way, but it’s a ‘limited edition’ Meta Quest
40
2K
SmokedMeat replied
IGN: Phil Spencer Has Now Been Head of Xbox for 10 Years; We Look Back at His First Decade
Opinion Analysis 2 3
130
8K
ZehDon replied
Microsoft is increasing the price of Xbox Series X and Xbox Game Pass
11 12 13 14 15
741
46K
NeoIkaruGAF replied
  • Poll
How well do you believe Phil Spencer has handled Xbox from 2017-Present?
2 3 4 5 6
295
15K
Three replied
The State of Xbox Game Studios and Bethesda Softworks: A breakdown of all the Confirmed Projects, Leaks, and Rumors
Opinion News Rumor 2
84
10K
Ozriel replied
Top Bottom