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"Noob Friendly" Fighting game systems
- Thread starter Platy
- Start date
I honestly don't like it. As 236 214 41236 63214 412369874 632147896 actions are easy to do (okay maybe not the last two on a D-pad without shortcuts).
It's when playing charge characters where they're:
4(hold two seconds) 6(quick)4(quick)6(HOLD)PPP (like Guile's ultra in SSF4) that really do my head in and frustrate me.
As far as linking combos, I'll never be able to do that so it doesn't matter to me. I just wish they would stop adding ranked/online achievements to their games. So annoying, I don't give a shit about the online mode (as 99% of fighting game netcode sucks shit), so I shouldn't have to torture myself for the achievements there. (In before "LOL YOU SHOULDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ACHIEVEMENTS" achievement haters. Hatersgonnahate.gif)
It's when playing charge characters where they're:
4(hold two seconds) 6(quick)4(quick)6(HOLD)PPP (like Guile's ultra in SSF4) that really do my head in and frustrate me.
As far as linking combos, I'll never be able to do that so it doesn't matter to me. I just wish they would stop adding ranked/online achievements to their games. So annoying, I don't give a shit about the online mode (as 99% of fighting game netcode sucks shit), so I shouldn't have to torture myself for the achievements there. (In before "LOL YOU SHOULDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ACHIEVEMENTS" achievement haters. Hatersgonnahate.gif)
A Twisty Fluken
Member
Teknopathetic said:
You say this like it's a good thing.
Net_Wrecker
Member
Glix said:
When comparing a combo consisting of single buttons, and single directions compared to a combo using links and FADC into Ultra the former is significantly easier to get a hold on.
Akibastman
Member
Monroeski said:Can't be too noob friendly of a mode with all the names in Japanese.
Yeah, it should be "the blue fireball thing" "the one where he jumps and punch in the same time" and "that weird spinning kick move".
Teknopathetic
Member
"It's not lost on me. Again, my point was to take the emphasis OFF of HOW to do the move, and put it more on WHY you should do it, or WHEN. Instead of the input being complex because it's a powerful move, you use other drawbacks such as long start up animations, long whiff animations, and w/e else you can think of. There are ways to balance a move other than having the input be more complex."
These things are also taken into account when you consider their difficulty. The other aspects you mention can only work so far to balancing a move if you want to make moves that are unique enough to create different character playstyles. Should Ryu's Fireball and Zangief's SPD have the exact same difficulty to execute?
"I would rather the difficulty to execute be starting and landing the move then punching in the buttons."
See above, now you could potentially get into wonky balance issues.
These things are also taken into account when you consider their difficulty. The other aspects you mention can only work so far to balancing a move if you want to make moves that are unique enough to create different character playstyles. Should Ryu's Fireball and Zangief's SPD have the exact same difficulty to execute?
"I would rather the difficulty to execute be starting and landing the move then punching in the buttons."
See above, now you could potentially get into wonky balance issues.
To Far Away Times
Member
In some cases its a good thing. For example, you probably wouldn't want to be able to map a 360 command throw to a single button press.A Twisty Fluken said:
Teknopathetic
Member
"Which can also be conveyed with a shorter range, a slower start (which means more vulnerability) or less priority."
You're getting into areas where you could make moves worthless or way too good.
You're getting into areas where you could make moves worthless or way too good.
Teknopathetic
Member
"No, I'm just saying there's plenty of parameters that can be balanced if the developer wants to remove the barrier of entry given by complex button sequences."
And those parameters are balanced with the (not really) "complex button sequences" in mind to create a varied, balanced roster of play styles.
And those parameters are balanced with the (not really) "complex button sequences" in mind to create a varied, balanced roster of play styles.
Teknopathetic said:
What? The only time the input is used as a way to balance moves is, like, charge moves. Maybe spin moves. If you rely on the inputs to balance pretty much any other moves, you wind up with an extremely unbalanced game when players get good enough that it's no longer a hurdle. It's a way moves are balanced, but it's not the only way, or even the main way. Speed, power, range, and priority, among other things, are much larger factors in the way moves are balanced. Giving them all the same input might unbalance an existing fighting game, but a game built around that control scheme could work perfectly fine.
Again, you, as a fighting game fan, are unable to envision a fighting game not built in the 20-year-old Street Fighter mold.
Also, is it really so hard to use the goddamn quote function built into the fucking board? Wouldn't clicking "Quote" be faster than copy/pasting the post and manually sticking quotation marks around it?
Teknopathetic
Member
"What? The only time the input is used as a way to balance moves is, like, charge moves. Maybe spin moves."
Yes, Charge moves, and 360/720 moves. Which have their own set of pros and cons because of their difficulty and also helps create characters with different play styles. There are characters who have a strong focus on their charge and 360/720 moves, so why are you trying to downplay their importance or act like there are only a few?
"Again, you, as a fighting game fan, are unable to envision a fighting game not built in the 20-year-old Street Fighter mold."
Except I'm completely comfortable with the 3D fighting games like VF which aren't built in the 20-year-old street fighter mold at all. So drop that bullshit. Immediately.
"Which is a completely different topic, I was talking about moves being balanced around their difficulty of execution"
It's not a completely different topic at all. They go hand and hand.
Yes, Charge moves, and 360/720 moves. Which have their own set of pros and cons because of their difficulty and also helps create characters with different play styles. There are characters who have a strong focus on their charge and 360/720 moves, so why are you trying to downplay their importance or act like there are only a few?
"Again, you, as a fighting game fan, are unable to envision a fighting game not built in the 20-year-old Street Fighter mold."
Except I'm completely comfortable with the 3D fighting games like VF which aren't built in the 20-year-old street fighter mold at all. So drop that bullshit. Immediately.
"Which is a completely different topic, I was talking about moves being balanced around their difficulty of execution
"It's not a completely different topic at all. They go hand and hand.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Mr_Elysia said:
Better sales, if you've drank this gen's Kool-Aid.
6 month later and I am still struggling through BlazBlue. True that I don't practice every day (getting the PSP version so I can do that) But anyone who says Fighting games aren't as hard as people think of, is liar, especially as BlazBlue is regarded as Noob Frindly game compared to many fighting games out there.
Teknopathetic
Member
"6 month later and I am still struggling through BlazBlue. True that I don't practice every day (getting the PSP version so I can do that) But anyone who says Fighting games aren't as hard as people think of, is liar, especially as BlazBlue is regarded as Noob Frindly game compared to many fighting games out there."
What are you struggling with, exactly?
"In SFIV shortcuts eliminate said difficulty. It's still much harder to land an SPD than a fireball, based on properties alone."
Even with shortcuts there is a much higher potential of flubbing your SPD input than a fireball one, simply because there is more room for error.
What are you struggling with, exactly?
"In SFIV shortcuts eliminate said difficulty. It's still much harder to land an SPD than a fireball, based on properties alone."
Even with shortcuts there is a much higher potential of flubbing your SPD input than a fireball one, simply because there is more room for error.
Uh? No, they don't.Teknopathetic said:"Which is a completely different topic, I was talking about moves being balanced around their difficulty of execution
It's not a completely different topic at all. They go hand and hand.
Balancing is completely different from making the controls of each character feel more unique. You can have characters that play completely differently even if they share the same, simplified button presses, and has nothing to do with balancing (again, what I was arguing in the first place).
Back to basics is great! That is what makes SFIV so nice. I can play it like it is Street Fighter 2. I had not played a fighting game since Tekken 2 so I like it when they make some easy modes and tutorials for us casual players to play these games again. Otherwise the genre would just continue to shrink and eventually cater to a few tens of thousands of players. Folks who want to use all the advanced stuff can do that as well...so everybody wins.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Balancing is completely different from making the controls of each character feel more unique. You can have characters that play completely differently even if they share the same, simplified button presses, and has nothing to do with balancing (again, what I was arguing in the first place)."
You're completely not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not talking about the controls making each character feel more unique whatsoever. I'm talking about movesets and strategy. I'm saying there are plenty of moves that have harder inputs because they have a certain set of advantages that means that they shouldn't be as easy to do as a similar move that doesn't have those advantages. See: Guile's Sonic Boom vs. Ryu's Fireball.
Sure, you could just take away those advantages and give them the same motion, but now you've made two characters with the same playstyle.
You're completely not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not talking about the controls making each character feel more unique whatsoever. I'm talking about movesets and strategy. I'm saying there are plenty of moves that have harder inputs because they have a certain set of advantages that means that they shouldn't be as easy to do as a similar move that doesn't have those advantages. See: Guile's Sonic Boom vs. Ryu's Fireball.
Sure, you could just take away those advantages and give them the same motion, but now you've made two characters with the same playstyle.
Honestly,Skilletor said:
I don't even know what fadc means and I've played hours and hours of SFIV since it came out. Game is a lot of fun if you are only familiar with SFII and add in the super moves. Capcom did a good job allowing all levels of players to get into the game.
And what I said is that complex controls aren't the only way to make a move harder to execute. You can balance plenty of variables to achieve exactly that, if your goal is removing a potentially harsh barrier of entry.Teknopathetic said:
Making it all boil down exclusively to the complexity of button sequences is a very limited view imho.
Uhm, no. Their moves would still be different and behave differently, exactly like characters already sharing the same combinations to execute moves don't share the same playstyle.Teknopathetic said:
The prob I had with SSF4, wasn't really the really the execution of the special moves. It was the timing of combo's. It's so precise. For newbie to the SF series it's really hard to get into the combo system. Even the simple combo's. Sure you can practice, but honestly the game is so hard that practicing feels like a grind(you have to practice a lot). Failing a simple link combo and leads to excessive amounts to punishment online. Even if I get into a favourable position it was almost impossible for me to dish out a punishing combo. And if it failed it basically I was in a world of pain. The online community is great for seasoned players I guess, but for newbies it's hell. Honestly wasn't FADC supposed to be something hard to do, honestly I've see more people throw that thing out at will than people who can't.
Which explains why I like Soul Calibur. Simple and easy to execute combo's. Sure there are button mashers, but it's easy enough to counter. A beginner can easily find a few combo's he's comfortable with and work from there.
Which explains why I like Soul Calibur. Simple and easy to execute combo's. Sure there are button mashers, but it's easy enough to counter. A beginner can easily find a few combo's he's comfortable with and work from there.
Teknopathetic
Member
"And what I said is that complex controls aren't the only way to make a move harder to execute. You can balance plenty of variables to achieve exactly that, if your goal is removing a potentially harsh barrier of entry.
Making it all boil down exclusively to the complexity of button sequences is a very limited view imho."
"Uhm, no. Their moves would still be different and behave differently."
The problem with this is that now the move that retains its advantages and different behavior is noticeably better. Guile's sonic boom is capable of being much faster than Ryu's fireball and also much slower. Furthermore, Guile's sonic boom has very little recovery, meaning the instant his first sonic boom disappears, he can instantly throw another one (assuming a single button press input system). Ryu would lose a fireball fight every time. This isn't even getting into the versatility that having a really slow or really fast fireball gives.
Making it all boil down exclusively to the complexity of button sequences is a very limited view imho."
"Uhm, no. Their moves would still be different and behave differently."
The problem with this is that now the move that retains its advantages and different behavior is noticeably better. Guile's sonic boom is capable of being much faster than Ryu's fireball and also much slower. Furthermore, Guile's sonic boom has very little recovery, meaning the instant his first sonic boom disappears, he can instantly throw another one (assuming a single button press input system). Ryu would lose a fireball fight every time. This isn't even getting into the versatility that having a really slow or really fast fireball gives.
EYEL1NER
Member
The only thing I think a fighting game needs to make it noob-friendly is a practice/training mode that gives you button commands. A mode where it shows you a button command and you execute it, then it moves on to the next one. I think Soul Calibur and maybe DOA (and some other ones) had a demo of the move being executed by the AI so you could tell how quick it's pulled off and things like that is great.
Beyond that, I don't think they should do anything. I mean, if you want to get into fighting games, there are all kinds that have different styles and commands and whatnot. BB/GG, SF, VF, DBZ. I think a fighting game needs a noob mode as much as Rock Band needed the beginner mode, which is not at all. If you want to play the game, find one you can get a feel for and learn to play it. Where is the sense of accomplishment in the using the noob mode?
When I started playing RB/Guitar Hero games, I was disappointed when I was not that good and playing on easy difficulties. I could hear the music playing in the background but I wasn't playing along to it. I wasn't satisfied with it and I don't think anyone should be. You should always strive to get better. My buddy and I aren't THAT good at MvC2 and he is not as good as me, but he can go 4 and 25 against me and still wants to keep playing, because he wants to be better.
I'm absolutely horrible at GGXX and have been playing it for years, but thinking about it, I kind of want to pop it in right now and lose to EX I-No a couple times.
Beyond that, I don't think they should do anything. I mean, if you want to get into fighting games, there are all kinds that have different styles and commands and whatnot. BB/GG, SF, VF, DBZ. I think a fighting game needs a noob mode as much as Rock Band needed the beginner mode, which is not at all. If you want to play the game, find one you can get a feel for and learn to play it. Where is the sense of accomplishment in the using the noob mode?
When I started playing RB/Guitar Hero games, I was disappointed when I was not that good and playing on easy difficulties. I could hear the music playing in the background but I wasn't playing along to it. I wasn't satisfied with it and I don't think anyone should be. You should always strive to get better. My buddy and I aren't THAT good at MvC2 and he is not as good as me, but he can go 4 and 25 against me and still wants to keep playing, because he wants to be better.
I'm absolutely horrible at GGXX and have been playing it for years, but thinking about it, I kind of want to pop it in right now and lose to EX I-No a couple times.
Things like the easy mode in BlazBlue or other "noob friendly" systems don't bother me. If it helps you have more fun, then go for it. And if I lose against someone using the "noob-mode", then that's my own fault. It also makes for some pretty funny trash talking among my friends.
You can't really apply this concept to an existing game without changing the way it's balanced, of course. If SSF4 was conceived for simplified controls, then the Sonic Boom would - for example - have a bigger delay before starting (slowing it down and making Guile more vulnerable), and/or deal a different amount of damage.Teknopathetic said:
Guile would still play differently from Ryu, and still require skills beyond just spamming Sonic Booms all the time.
I think the only thing I'd really want changed in some fighters is the timing to do even some simpler combos. I just can't help but mash out something like cr. lp -> cr. lp -> cr. lp -> cr. mp -> HPcriminal upper with Cody in SSF4.
Things like 1 frame combos really limit my options in what characters I can play and do well with. I'd LOVE to play Cody, and be able to do his combos, but no matter how much practice I had put into him it just isn't clicking with me to land those punches into uppers consistently. However, playing Guile/Abel/Makoto are characters I have far less problems playing well and can do a lot of/almost all of their potential combos.
These easy mode control scheme's won't help noobie players win. A lot of practice really will, but hey it's great that they include this option. Just keep it the hell out of ranked online multiplayer. Blazblue Continuum Shift let it be used in ranked online, and some characters can actually really abuse this + add in some lag when you're playing a character like Hazama against the easy mode user and you have a great chance to lose due to monkey crap. :/
So yeah for me I'd just like to see the timings for linking things together get toned down, but of course always have a few characters remain who ARE still very technically hard to play AKA Crimson Viper. More options for games as time goes on is always a good thing if approached correctly.
Things like 1 frame combos really limit my options in what characters I can play and do well with. I'd LOVE to play Cody, and be able to do his combos, but no matter how much practice I had put into him it just isn't clicking with me to land those punches into uppers consistently. However, playing Guile/Abel/Makoto are characters I have far less problems playing well and can do a lot of/almost all of their potential combos.
These easy mode control scheme's won't help noobie players win. A lot of practice really will, but hey it's great that they include this option. Just keep it the hell out of ranked online multiplayer. Blazblue Continuum Shift let it be used in ranked online, and some characters can actually really abuse this + add in some lag when you're playing a character like Hazama against the easy mode user and you have a great chance to lose due to monkey crap. :/
So yeah for me I'd just like to see the timings for linking things together get toned down, but of course always have a few characters remain who ARE still very technically hard to play AKA Crimson Viper. More options for games as time goes on is always a good thing if approached correctly.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Teknopathetic said:
Your point about execution difficulty being a key part of the balance in current fighting systems is a good one, but I think that a fighting system could sustain the loss of that particular variable (i.e. move difficulty) and still come out well. So the people you are arguing with seem to have a reasonable point. Do you not agree with that? Do you think that move difficulty gradation is an essential/necessary part of making a good fighting system? Or is your argument more that sticking "simple" modes into games that are already balanced around move difficulty is not going to work well. I would probably agree with you there.
Teknopathetic
Member
"You can't really apply this concept to an existing game without changing the way it's balanced, of course. If SSF4 was conceived for simplified controls, then the Sonic Boom would - for example - have a bigger delay before starting (slowing it down and making Guile more vulnerable), and/or deal a different amount of damage."
A bigger start up delay creates quite a few problems and solves nothing. For example, a longer start up means guile can't really bait out a whiffed normal and punish with a sonic boom. A longer start up also means it's much easier to jump over and punish the sonic boom. Guile is a character whose strategy revolves around his using sonic booms to control his opponent and force them to make mistakes (like jumping over a sonic boom) and punishing them. Also, with a longer start up, how would Guile combo into his sonic boom? You would have to change the properties of his normals which causes even more balancing problems. And Guile's Sonic Boom already deals a different (less) amount of damage.
"Your point about execution difficulty being a key part of the balance in current fighting systems is a good one, but I think that a fighting system could sustain the loss of that particular variable (i.e. move difficulty) and still come out well. So the people you are arguing with seem to have a reasonable point. Do you not agree with that? Do you think that move difficulty gradation is an essential/necessary part of making a good fighting system? Or is your argument more that sticking "simple" modes into games that are already balanced around move difficulty is not going to work well. I would probably agree with you there."
The latter. There are already fighting games (VF, Tekken) that have fairly simple inputs for a majority of the characters moves. There are a handful of QCF/DP/etc. moves and just frames, but for every character that has some, you're talking 3-4 moves out of a list of 60-70+. I'm curious to hear what the people who are suggesting simple inputs think of VF/Tekken, because it sounds like those two would be games they would prefer.
A bigger start up delay creates quite a few problems and solves nothing. For example, a longer start up means guile can't really bait out a whiffed normal and punish with a sonic boom. A longer start up also means it's much easier to jump over and punish the sonic boom. Guile is a character whose strategy revolves around his using sonic booms to control his opponent and force them to make mistakes (like jumping over a sonic boom) and punishing them. Also, with a longer start up, how would Guile combo into his sonic boom? You would have to change the properties of his normals which causes even more balancing problems. And Guile's Sonic Boom already deals a different (less) amount of damage.
"Your point about execution difficulty being a key part of the balance in current fighting systems is a good one, but I think that a fighting system could sustain the loss of that particular variable (i.e. move difficulty) and still come out well. So the people you are arguing with seem to have a reasonable point. Do you not agree with that? Do you think that move difficulty gradation is an essential/necessary part of making a good fighting system? Or is your argument more that sticking "simple" modes into games that are already balanced around move difficulty is not going to work well. I would probably agree with you there."
The latter. There are already fighting games (VF, Tekken) that have fairly simple inputs for a majority of the characters moves. There are a handful of QCF/DP/etc. moves and just frames, but for every character that has some, you're talking 3-4 moves out of a list of 60-70+. I'm curious to hear what the people who are suggesting simple inputs think of VF/Tekken, because it sounds like those two would be games they would prefer.
the commands aren't really difficult to execute individually or even in a string, so this simplification doesn't make the genre anymore friendly.
it's just a shortcut, you still have to deal with timely execution of strings/combos/links, the most basic jab/punch/kick..etc are the ones that you'll use the most in any fight and doing those links from a jab you must have very good hit confirmation reflexes.
it's just a shortcut, you still have to deal with timely execution of strings/combos/links, the most basic jab/punch/kick..etc are the ones that you'll use the most in any fight and doing those links from a jab you must have very good hit confirmation reflexes.
"A bigger start up delay creates quite a few problems and solves nothing."
Are you not seeing the forest for the trees? This was an example of a hypothetical change that can be made that isn't linked to the input mechanism.
Don't be alarmed, Capcom wasn't going to patch simple mode into SSFIV and only changing the start-up time for Guile's Sonic Boom.
Are you not seeing the forest for the trees? This was an example of a hypothetical change that can be made that isn't linked to the input mechanism.
Don't be alarmed, Capcom wasn't going to patch simple mode into SSFIV and only changing the start-up time for Guile's Sonic Boom.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Are you not seeing the forest for the trees? This was an example of a hypothetical change that can be made that isn't linked to the input mechanism.
Don't be alarmed, Capcom wasn't going to patch simple mode into SSFIV and only changing the start-up time for Guile's Sonic Boom."
Yes, and I responded how this hypothetical change causes a ton more balance issues for the sake of...what exactly? If you don't have anything substantial to add to our conversation, don't interject.
Don't be alarmed, Capcom wasn't going to patch simple mode into SSFIV and only changing the start-up time for Guile's Sonic Boom."
Yes, and I responded how this hypothetical change causes a ton more balance issues for the sake of...what exactly? If you don't have anything substantial to add to our conversation, don't interject.
And that's because SSF4 is designed taking into account the difficulty of execution of each move. So, again, you can't just stick in different controls and expect nothing to change. Which makes going too far into specific examples that don't take into account a complete rebalance entirely pointless (my rebuttal to the Ryu vs. Guile argument was, not coincidentally, limited to differentiating them enough).Teknopathetic said:
Very slight changes in balancing, often small enough not to be noticeable immediately, can often produce enormous effects. I know that pretty well
Teknopathetic
Member
"For the sake of simple controls. I thought that was obvious based on the thread title."
I'm still not seeing what you're supposed to be contributing to this thread and why you should still be in it.
"And that's because SSF4 is designed taking into account the difficulty of execution of each move. So, again, you can't just stick in different controls and expect nothing to change. Which makes going too far into specific examples that don't take into account a complete rebalance entirely pointless (my rebuttal to the Ryu vs. Guile argument was, not coincidentally, limited to differentiating them enough).
Very slight changes in balancing, often small enough not to be noticeable immediately, can often produce enormous effects. I know that pretty well"
What the OP and the people I were originally responding to seemed to be talking about modes like EO-ism that are put into pre-existing fighting games for simpler inputs, not fighting games with simpler inputs themselves. There are already fighting games (highly regarded ones) without the "complex" inputs of SF or KOF, etc.
I'm still not seeing what you're supposed to be contributing to this thread and why you should still be in it.
"And that's because SSF4 is designed taking into account the difficulty of execution of each move. So, again, you can't just stick in different controls and expect nothing to change. Which makes going too far into specific examples that don't take into account a complete rebalance entirely pointless (my rebuttal to the Ryu vs. Guile argument was, not coincidentally, limited to differentiating them enough).
Very slight changes in balancing, often small enough not to be noticeable immediately, can often produce enormous effects. I know that pretty well
"What the OP and the people I were originally responding to seemed to be talking about modes like EO-ism that are put into pre-existing fighting games for simpler inputs, not fighting games with simpler inputs themselves. There are already fighting games (highly regarded ones) without the "complex" inputs of SF or KOF, etc.
And that was not my pointTeknopathetic said:"And that's because SSF4 is designed taking into account the difficulty of execution of each move. So, again, you can't just stick in different controls and expect nothing to change. Which makes going too far into specific examples that don't take into account a complete rebalance entirely pointless (my rebuttal to the Ryu vs. Guile argument was, not coincidentally, limited to differentiating them enough).
Very slight changes in balancing, often small enough not to be noticeable immediately, can often produce enormous effects. I know that pretty well
Then what The OP and the people I were originally responding to seemed to be talking about modes like EO-ism that are put into pre-existing fighting games for simpler inputs, not fighting games with simpler inputs themselves. There are already fighting games (highly regarded ones) without the "complex" inputs of SF or KOF, etc.
Shoehorning completely different controls without changing anything works VERY rarely, of course I agree with this.