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Forza Motorsport 5 announced

And I really believe that night and weather didn't make it into FM on the 360 because it was impossible to do them visual justice and maintain 60fps on the old creaky hardware.

Indeed, Dan has said as much:

Forza Motorsport includes alternate times of day for a small number of environments, but those alternates do not include dark night or weather effects. For Forza 4, the majority of our graphical investment went into our new image-based lighting (IBL) model, as well as new material shaders, which give our cars and tracks such a realistic, detailed look. With IBL, supporting the general look of night is not particularly hard. However, we take frame rate pretty seriously—we believe that having a solid 60 frames per second (FPS) experience with no tearing is very important for a simulation racing game. Delivering night is about more than just getting the general look right. As we found on the original Forza Motorsport, having multiple headlight projections with multiple cast shadows is computationally heavy—even using clever tricks like we did on the less powerful original Xbox platform. This makes delivering a strong night racing experience very difficult at 60 FPS without significant compromise.

Regarding weather conditions, we do simulate different track temperatures. However, we did not get tire data for wet conditions from our tire partners at Pirelli. We do have SAE data about wet conditions, but it’s nowhere near as comprehensive as our Pirelli data. In order to simulate wet correctly, we’d like to get custom real-world test data to input into our system. Of course, physics isn’t the only difficult aspect of delivering wet conditions. Creating believable weather effects also depends upon gobs of particles and lots of shiny, reflective surfaces. There are several tricks for doing this, but it would still have made delivering the new graphical fidelity of FM4 at a solid 60 FPS nearly impossible in our development timeframe.

If we cut down on the number of cars on track, used original Xbox-generation car models, dropped to 30 FPS, or (and this would be the most effective solution) built specific tracks from the ground-up to have less detail and thus extra performance headroom, then night racing and/or weather conditions may have been possible. Some of those trade-offs, we just were not willing to do. Others would require time that we used to develop other features in the game—specifically, the new graphical look of the game in general. Night and weather are features we will continue to evaluate as the franchise continues. We’re waiting for the right time to deliver these features to our fans.

Maintaining a solid, tear-free 60 fps is clearly the priority, (as well it should be), and I can only hope that "We’re waiting for the right time to deliver these features to our fans," translates to: "Night and weather day one in FM5 thanks to the infinite power of the cloud!!1!" Huzzah.
 

m23

Member
60 fps is definitely more important to me than weather and night racing. I think most of us here agree on that. Although the new hardware is hopefully strong enough to enable all of these features now.
 

OrangeOak

Member
It needs to be well balanced. I play from an in-car or bumper view, so seeing my car is not that big of a deal. Environments to me is really important as well. But the thing with a lot of the Forza tracks is that they are very stale. Would it hurt them to put some hot air balloons, more banners, perhaps helicopters flying around or something? When I watch a race on T.V. it looks like a lively even, they have these things in real life...they should make the game have a little more life in it.

This plus flags,safty cars,blown tires,more cars on road and day night cycle and it will be my dream game.
I also want pits to be full of crews and cars.Empty pits are sad.
 

saladine1

Junior Member
Indeed, Dan has said as much:



Maintaining a solid, tear-free 60 fps is clearly the priority, (as well it should be), and I can only hope that "We’re waiting for the right time to deliver these features to our fans," translates to: "Night and weather day one in FM5 thanks to the infinite power of the cloud!!1!" Huzzah.

It has to be!
No more excuses.

In fact, I want to create a banner that reads "No more excuses" so I can put on top of my avatar. Something similar to the "Only on Xbox" and "PS4NoDRM" banners floating around here.
 

Hawk269

Member
Believe me, we've been begging for the same thing for years. However, judging by the very brief trailer, it seems like Turn 10 are getting serious about it.
Anxious to see how that translates onto a proper race track..

Well the trailer for Forza 4 showed nighttime and offroad elements and that did not pan out. But, I am hoping this time they will deliver.

For me also, they really need to fix the really jacked up Pit Stop system they have. It has actually gotten worse with every version of the game. While limited, FMI's Pit Stop was decent at best. For me, Pit Stops in a simulation game is something that needs to be done right.
 

sneaky77

Member
I am sure we all know the game is going to look amazing, Forza usually does. I am ready for gameplay, physics and some revamping in the event list or the career or something new, not just more look at how many cars we have now and one more environment while removing others.. unless they remove Indianapolis, man what a boring track
 

Hawk269

Member
This plus flags,safty cars,blown tires,more cars on road and day night cycle and it will be my dream game.
I also wan't pits to be full of crews and cars.Empty pits are sad.

Orange, I typed my response before reading yours and said almost the same exact thing.

Pit Stops are such an big part of Auto Racing and the fact that Forza in total has ignored this part of racing is just sad. They should have some races that are 10 laps or so and have tire/fuel wear down at accelerated rates to allow for pit stop strategy. This would be even more fun on-line.

If the trailer is any indication of how the tracks are going to be more "alive" I am all for it and will welcome it big time. Night/Day cycle is something that needs to return. We have gone through 3 Forza games without some nighttime racing.

And for the love of god, please have more DLC tracks/environments this time. I love cars like the next guy, but once you get over 600 cars, well we need more variety in where to drive them.
 

FordGTGuy

Banned
Well the trailer for Forza 4 showed nighttime and offroad elements and that did not pan out. But, I am hoping this time they will deliver.

For me also, they really need to fix the really jacked up Pit Stop system they have. It has actually gotten worse with every version of the game. While limited, FMI's Pit Stop was decent at best. For me, Pit Stops in a simulation game is something that needs to be done right.

That was a realtime teaser, nothing in that video was promised in the real game.

I'm pretty sure they even had open-wheeled racers in that teaser too.
 

~~Hasan~~

Junior Member
i kinda wish this would have been forza horizon 2...as i enjoyed that game more than the actual forza games / gt games lol.

still. i can sense the speed of this game way more than older forza / gt games. so its good i guess
 

FordGTGuy

Banned
i kinda wish this would have been forza horizon 2...as i enjoyed that game more than the actual forza games / gt games lol.

still. i can sense the speed of this game way more than older forza / gt games. so its good i guess

Dude it's been a year, learn patience. lol
 

sneaky77

Member
Orange, I typed my response before reading yours and said almost the same exact thing.

Pit Stops are such an big part of Auto Racing and the fact that Forza in total has ignored this part of racing is just sad. They should have some races that are 10 laps or so and have tire/fuel wear down at accelerated rates to allow for pit stop strategy. This would be even more fun on-line.

If the trailer is any indication of how the tracks are going to be more "alive" I am all for it and will welcome it big time. Night/Day cycle is something that needs to return. We have gone through 3 Forza games without some nighttime racing.

And for the love of god, please have more DLC tracks/environments this time. I love cars like the next guy, but once you get over 600 cars, well we need more variety in where to drive them.

I think at some point we begin to see where Turn 10 ideas for Forza and what we want from Forza divert.. they seem to want a car porn kinda game and we want a great racer.
 
I find that pitstops are the boring part of racing, i remember a few years ago when Formula 1 passes and podiums were done and undone during the pit passes. Flags are borring too, i dont want to see a yellow flag in a Forza game, having to drive slow for 2 laps is not fun at all.

For those things please enjoy your niche simulators, im more than fine having a random pit stop of changing tires/fuel and repair damage.
 

OrangeOak

Member
Orange, I typed my response before reading yours and said almost the same exact thing.

Pit Stops are such an big part of Auto Racing and the fact that Forza in total has ignored this part of racing is just sad. They should have some races that are 10 laps or so and have tire/fuel wear down at accelerated rates to allow for pit stop strategy. This would be even more fun on-line.

If the trailer is any indication of how the tracks are going to be more "alive" I am all for it and will welcome it big time. Night/Day cycle is something that needs to return. We have gone through 3 Forza games without some nighttime racing.

And for the love of god, please have more DLC tracks/environments this time. I love cars like the next guy, but once you get over 600 cars, well we need more variety in where to drive them.

Yes,I would love to see pit stops that include more tactic.They can make two options, pit stop advanced and basic if they don't want more casual racers to get lost.
Talking about night racing I don't see any reason why they wouldn't make it a reality in Forza 5.They probably will have deferred renderer now plus blu ray disc space and more bandwith/power.
I think it's a given!
 

Mascot

Member
...perhaps helicopters flying around...

Fuck yes. YES! Saw some flying around in a GRID 2 video this morning and I've only just recovered.

And it still raises a smile every time I see the GT5's blimp slowly patrolling the sky on Trial Mountain. EVERY TIME!

It has to be!
No more excuses.

In fact, I want to create a banner that reads "No more excuses" so I can put on top of my avatar. Something similar to the "Only on Xbox" and "PS4NoDRM" banners floating around here.

Paint a car in FM4 with that slogan on it and post a picture - then use it as your avatar..!

.. unless they remove Indianapolis, man what a boring track

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the meetings where things like this are decided. One valuable track spot utterly wasted on such a boring circuit that adds nothing to the franchise apart from some vague nod to history. Everything that Indy does, Sunset Peninsula does better, and it's already in the game. The Indy infield is just bland, pointless and ugly. Indy, but no Spa? Indy, but no Bathurst? Indy, but no Brands Hatch? It beggars belief.
 

saladine1

Junior Member
I find that pitstops are the boring part of racing, i remember a few years ago when Formula 1 passes and podiums were done and undone during the pit passes. Flags are borring too, i dont want to see a yellow flag in a Forza game, having to drive slow for 2 laps is not fun at all.

For those things please enjoy your niche simulators, im more than fine having a random pit stop of changing tires/fuel and repair damage.

Flags might be taking it a little too far but pit stops are a must!

This is especially needed where tyre wear and weather come into the picture. It would add a another dynamic to the gameplay. Strategy comes into play. Driving style comes into play.
This is something that Forza needs imo..
 
Personally I'm not bothered by its inaccuracies. Even if I'd driven the Nurburgring ten times in a supercar I'm sure I'd never be able to tell where any mistakes lie. I've never really understood all the fuss about it. People act as if they know the real track like the back of their hand. It still drives great, it's still a lot of fun, it's still recognisable as a videogame version of the track.

Yeah, I don't see it like that myself. I think the pillars of authenticity and simulation need to continue to be a focus, and be improved upon going forward. Those being physics, car models, and tracks. You can build "game" down from those elements, but you can't put "sim" into something shoddy. I just don't want to see fun and recognizable be a valid substitute for realism. That's no man's land down there with the Grids, and the Shifts of the world. Zero credibility.

Obviously your point was "but to what extent?", and that's totally valid, but these things are important even if not everyone cares. There's perception if nothing else.
 

Dural

Member
Make the pits and weather like in Test Drive LeMans on the DC; raining on half the track, have to decide whether to stay out with slicks or pit for rain tires. That game also had accelerated tire wear and fuel use so a ten lap race would require pitting. So good for how old it is now.
 

Mascot

Member
Yeah, I don't see it like that myself. I think the pillars of authenticity and simulation need to continue to be a focus, and be improved upon going forward. Those being physics, car models, and tracks. You can build "game" down from those elements, but you can't put "sim" into something shoddy. I just don't want to see fun and recognizable be a valid substitute for realism. That's no man's land down there with the Grids, and the Shifts of the world. Zero credibility.

Obviously your point was "but to what extent?", and that's totally valid, but these things are important even if not everyone cares. There's perception if nothing else.

I agree about it mainly being about perception. We can happily add 'misplaced indignation' and 'entitlement' into the mix as well. Using the 'Ring as probably the most celebrated example I guess my biggest problem with all the controversy about authenticity is that Joe Gamer was more than happy in his ignorance, and only knows he should be disgusted with its accuracy because forums tell him he should be. He wouldn't know a totally accurate version of the 'Ring if it jumped up and bit him on the ass.

The GT5 version is often cited as the 'best' console version, but many PC sim racers scoff at that version too. And who is to say a totally laser-scanned reproduction with every bump, barrier, tree and kerb mapped 100% accurately to within +/-1mm would make for a better gaming experience? And at what cost to resources that could have been better deployed elsewhere to give us a whole new environment to race around?

It might satisfy our egos to know that we are playing the most accurate reproduction out there, but does it really affect our enjoyment? We certainly don't want 100% accurate cars in our driving games because a large proportion of them would be totally undriveable with the skills the average gamer possesses, especially with a gamepad, so why are 100% accurate tracks so important? I've absolutely no idea whether Road America is accurately portrayed in FM4 but I do know I have a fuck-load of fun racing around on it. I've certainly never sulked after driving around Forza's Nordschleife because OMG it's sooooo inaccurate.
 
I agree about it mainly being about perception. We can happily add 'misplaced indignation' and 'entitlement' into the mix as well. Using the 'Ring as probably the most celebrated example I guess my biggest problem with all the controversy about authenticity is that Joe Gamer was more than happy in his ignorance, and only knows he should be disgusted with its accuracy because forums tell him he should be. He wouldn't know a totally accurate version of the 'Ring if it jumped up and bit him on the ass.

The GT5 version is often cited as the 'best' console version, but many PC sim racers scoff at that version too. And who is to say a totally laser-scanned reproduction with every bump, barrier, tree and kerb mapped 100% accurately to within +/-1mm would make for a better gaming experience? And at what cost to resources that could have been better deployed elsewhere to give us a whole new environment to race around?

It might satisfy our egos to know that we are playing the most accurate reproduction out there, but does it really affect our enjoyment? We certainly don't want 100% accurate cars in our driving games because a large proportion of them would be totally undriveable with the skills the average gamer possesses, especially with a gamepad, so why are 100% accurate tracks so important? I've absolutely no idea whether Road America is accurately portrayed in FM4 but I do know I have a fuck-load of fun racing around on it. I've certainly never sulked after driving around Forza's Nordschleife because OMG it's sooooo inaccurate.

I fully understand that point of view. If they put a loopdydoo in the middle of the straight at the Nordschleife, it doesn't really matter. You still have to drive it. Driving's fun, Loopdydoo Ring is therefore fun.

The reason accurate tracks are important is because it's fun as hell to feel like you're driving on the real thing. I'm a lifelong motorsports fan. I've watched countless hours of cars driving around on these tracks. When you drive on GT's Ring, or Game Stock Car's Ring, or even better yet iRacing's laser scanned tracks, your brain processes what you see as instantly recognizable. The elevation changes, the camber changes, the bumps, the curb height, corner radius, track width, it all looks nearly identical to what you see when you tune into a race. Your brain is fooled. For me personally, it's a really amazing feeling. Almost equal to the physics, and feeling of how of the cars drive.

I can appreciate that not everyone is going to have that same perspective, but for the people that do, it's a big deal. It's not ego or bragging rights, it's about suspension of disbelief. It's about recreating racing as you see it being done on Sunday afternoons.

They've got to start making these real world tracks better. Other devs have done a lot better with less everything (but time). They can't put it off forever.
 
I agree about it mainly being about perception. We can happily add 'misplaced indignation' and 'entitlement' into the mix as well. Using the 'Ring as probably the most celebrated example I guess my biggest problem with all the controversy about authenticity is that Joe Gamer was more than happy in his ignorance, and only knows he should be disgusted with its accuracy because forums tell him he should be. He wouldn't know a totally accurate version of the 'Ring if it jumped up and bit him on the ass.

The GT5 version is often cited as the 'best' console version, but many PC sim racers scoff at that version too. And who is to say a totally laser-scanned reproduction with every bump, barrier, tree and kerb mapped 100% accurately to within +/-1mm would make for a better gaming experience? And at what cost to resources that could have been better deployed elsewhere to give us a whole new environment to race around?

It might satisfy our egos to know that we are playing the most accurate reproduction out there, but does it really affect our enjoyment? We certainly don't want 100% accurate cars in our driving games because a large proportion of them would be totally undriveable with the skills the average gamer possesses, especially with a gamepad, so why are 100% accurate tracks so important? I've absolutely no idea whether Road America is accurately portrayed in FM4 but I do know I have a fuck-load of fun racing around on it. I've certainly never sulked after driving around Forza's Nordschleife because OMG it's sooooo inaccurate.

In favor of which?
 

HeliosT10

Member
Except allowing people to have a new and improved Forza every two years and making them more money so they can continue to keep doing it.

They could develop the game for another year, add a bunch more features to the game, but most people will still stop playing it after 3-6 months. And then people would have to wait til 2017 for the next one. I say no thanks to that.


Agree with all that. Some things are beyond just a matter of time.

Hey Seanspeed, just saw your mention in the neogaf documentary and it was in the most heart warming way. Just wanted to say that was awesome of you pal, and what an amazing thing to do!

In the whole doc it was the one thing that most shows what a close gaming community is all about and what it has to offer people...
 

m23

Member
Hey Seanspeed, just saw your mention in the neogaf documentary and it was in the most heart warming way. Just wanted to say that was awesome of you pal, and what an amazing thing to do!

In the whole doc it was the one thing that most shows what a close gaming community is all about and what it has to offer people...

Yeah I also noticed that, really great of you Seanspeed. The world needs more people like you.
 

Mascot

Member
In favor of which?

Ah, no idea. I'm guessing some laser-scanned version or something, if one exists? It's just comments I've picked up on in various sim racing boards. Anecdotal, really.

The guys that operate the driving school at the real ring, they say that gt5 ring version is the best available.
I'll take their word regarding nurburgring everytime against some game reviewer or pc sim fanatic.

There you go. GT5's is the best after all.

I fully understand that point of view. If they put a loopdydoo in the middle of the straight at the Nordschleife, it doesn't really matter. You still have to drive it. Driving's fun, Loopdydoo Ring is therefore fun.

Well, I wouldn't go that far..! lol
I guess it's all about priorities. Turn 10 have a version of the ring modelled (inaccurately, as it turns out) but for the vast, vast majority of FM players it's still the Nordschleife. To them it's still a perfectly serviceable and recognisable facsimile of that track. It's inaccuracies compared to the actual circuit are only important to a small proportion of the user base (and for many, only once those inaccuracies are pointed out to them) and the errors are never going to be enough to stop a fan from buying the game. I can't see Turn 10 ever remodelling it. It would take too much work.

Starting to wish I'd ever mentioned it. I should know better by now..! :)
 
The guys that operate the driving school at the real ring, they say that gt5 ring version is the best available.
I'll take their word regarding nurburgring everytime against some game reviewer or pc sim fanatic.

Not that it really matters, you could drive the ring everyday 10 hrs a day in gt5, and if you tried to drive the same way you did at home you would most likely die, or at best total your car.
 

p3tran

Banned
Not that it really matters, you could drive the ring everyday 10 hrs a day in gt5, and if you tried to drive the same way you did at home you would most likely die, or at best total your car.
as a gamer that went to "conquer" the ring after simulating it? :)
chances are you wouldnt even try to drive the same pace, since your pants will be filled with poop. and that with a humble renault clio, let alone a 911. :)
but still, that doesnt mean that there is no point wanting the racetracks to be as close to reality as possible. or that people don't go visit the ring because they where originally excited about it from a videogame.
both things happen, and its a good thing that they do.
 
Well, I wouldn't go that far..! lol
I guess it's all about priorities. Turn 10 have a version of the ring modelled (inaccurately, as it turns out) but for the vast, vast majority of FM players it's still the Nordschleife. To them it's still a perfectly serviceable and recognisable facsimile of that track. It's inaccuracies compared to the actual circuit are only important to a small proportion of the user base (and for many, only once those inaccuracies are pointed out to them) and the errors are never going to be enough to stop a fan from buying the game. I can't see Turn 10 ever remodelling it. It would take too much work.

Starting to wish I'd ever mentioned it. I should know better by now..! :)

It's definitely about priorities, and not everything warrants the effort of a retool.

I do think you're off base to think that poor track modeling is something nobody cares about, and that it ultimately doesn't impact game sales. I certainly think it does. GT4/5 were coined by lots of people as the Nurburgring Simulator. It's been that franchise's signature track for 10 years. Would they have sold less games if the Ring was less accurate? I don't know, but I do know they sold many, many more copies because it was.

You're right Joe Blow probably doesn't care, but if Joe Blow is a design standard, you're no longer making a game with serious simulation aspirations. You're no longer lockstep with GT. You're no longer making a game for motorsport enthusiasts. You're making a better handling PGR or GRID. Who knows, maybe that's the direction they'll take it. I think that would be a popular game, but you've effectively bowed out of the race.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
Hey Seanspeed, just saw your mention in the neogaf documentary and it was in the most heart warming way. Just wanted to say that was awesome of you pal, and what an amazing thing to do!

In the whole doc it was the one thing that most shows what a close gaming community is all about and what it has to offer people...
Wait what? What did I do? :/
 

p3tran

Banned
Wait what? What did I do? :/

(I think) some guy was in a tough spot and you offered to give him your number and chat it out etc.
I still wont let you beat me though, doesnt matter how good guy you are :pp

and yes, big takeover, amar, etc, you are right of course! we will have to wait & see how microsoft handles the forza business.
in my mind, all possibilities are open. hopefully they dont fuck it up.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
(I think) some guy was in a tough spot and you offered to give him your number and chat it out etc.
I still wont let you beat me though, doesnt matter how good guy you are :pp
Aw, shucks. <blushes>

Now I'm gonna have to watch it. I was scared to before as I thought it would just represent us as a bunch of awful, maniacal gamer stereotypes!
 

Seanspeed

Banned
I thought the same thing, but it's fairly even keel, highlighted unknowingly by you!
Finally saw it. Totally random pick of the draw as I was hardly the only one willing to offer support. Also a little uneasy about them just outing HiResDes like that(although I guess posting it on GAF isn't much different, it probably wouldn't be something he'd want put in a documentary...).

I'm not a big fan of robotic-voice Sean, either. lol

Doc was ok. I think the GAF community probably deserves a bit more credit, but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Anyways! Nurburgring is amazing, but I kinda wish people would get over it at some point! lol Everybody always wants to pick it online, but its really not conducive to good racing. Thats obviously why Turn 10 widened it a bit, which I dont mind at all and showed they understood this, but its still such a pain to try and pass people cleanly, going 170mph down a narrow, curved road with barriers just a few meters to your left and right.
 

sneaky77

Member
so I was playing Grid 2 and I just get so frustrated that it seems every racing game, wether it be Forza or more arcadey like Grid, and Shift, is always you start at the back, try to bang thru the pack as quick as possible to you can try to hot lap a couple of times with no mistakes to catch the leader.. surely someone will come up with a new idea right? Is just gets frustrating. The AI should be good.. not just artificially make you go thru 10 cars to try to catch the leader who obviously starts at the front.
 
so I was playing Grid 2 and I just get so frustrated that it seems every racing game, wether it be Forza or more arcadey like Grid, and Shift, is always you start at the back, try to bang thru the pack as quick as possible to you can try to hot lap a couple of times with no mistakes to catch the leader.. surely someone will come up with a new idea right? Is just gets frustrating. The AI should be good.. not just artificially make you go thru 10 cars to try to catch the leader who obviously starts at the front.

I think a solution would be if your playing on the hardest difficulty, allowing a qualifying lap to determine the starting grid. If you did this on lower difficulties it would not work because you would never have any competition. And even then once your in the lead your golden unless you fuck up.
 

sneaky77

Member
I think a solution would be if your playing on the hardest difficulty, allowing a qualifying lap to determine the starting grid. If you did this on lower difficulties it would not work because you would never have any competition. And even then once your in the lead your golden unless you fuck up.

well but that would be up for the individual.. if someone is not good and normal is hard for them it should be there also. There's got to be a solution, I just dont know what the best would be
 
Finally saw it. Totally random pick of the draw as I was hardly the only one willing to offer support. Also a little uneasy about them just outing HiResDes like that(although I guess posting it on GAF isn't much different, it probably wouldn't be something he'd want put in a documentary...).

I'm not a big fan of robotic-voice Sean, either. lol

Doc was ok. I think the GAF community probably deserves a bit more credit, but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Anyways! Nurburgring is amazing, but I kinda wish people would get over it at some point! lol Everybody always wants to pick it online, but its really not conducive to good racing. Thats obviously why Turn 10 widened it a bit, which I dont mind at all and showed they understood this, but its still such a pain to try and pass people cleanly, going 170mph down a narrow, curved road with barriers just a few meters to your left and right.

The guy who put it together made a comment about Robo-Sean:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60699153&postcount=2029
 

Seanspeed

Banned
well but that would be up for the individual.. if someone is not good and normal is hard for them it should be there also. There's got to be a solution, I just dont know what the best would be
Qualifying or longer races.

Qualifying as an optional session for those who want the more complete motorsport experience and the opportunity to start up front. Difficulty would determine the pace of the competition, so even lesser drivers would stand a chance at the lower difficulty settings.

And longer races should be included anyways, but would also help this problem. I consider myself fairly competitive, but even I had a hard time winning some of the early 2-lap races, where it was nearly impossible to *cleanly* get to the front early enough to fight for the win. Add just a couple laps for the shorter tracks so if you start from farther back, you dont feel it necessary to bump and crash your way up to the front in order to place well. Patience is a virtue in motorsports and single-player doesn't always teach you that very well! :p

EDIT: Also, Forza 3(and maybe 4?) had it where the higher your level, the higher your starting position. Ok, but by the time you were a higher level, you generally were already doing longer races where fighting your way forward wasn't as big a deal. Wasn't a bad system if you enjoyed starting from the front, but I didn't mind fighting my way from the back to make things interesting.

The guy who put it together made a comment about Robo-Sean:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=60699153&postcount=2029
Its in the public domain, so I cant really complain about it. Not how I would have shown the more caring side of GAF, but at least he wanted to include some of that in there somewhere!
 

FordGTGuy

Banned
One thing I've been really clamoring for with Forza is the ability of unlimited tuning combined with gradual damage.

For example.

Someone takes a Mustang and puts 2000 RWHP on a built block but when he races the engine will only last for so long, the same way it would in reality. Vehicle to vehicle would definitely vary with more well built engines lasting longer, this way you can tune unlimited but there will be consequences for going with a over-powered setup.
 

Seanspeed

Banned
One thing I've been really clamoring for with Forza is the ability of unlimited tuning combined with gradual damage.

For example.

Someone takes a Mustang and puts 2000 RWHP on a built block but when he races the engine will only last for so long, the same way it would in reality. Vehicle to vehicle would definitely vary with more well built engines lasting longer, this way you can tune unlimited but there will be consequences for going with a over-powered setup.
Would wreak havoc with online balance and the PI system in general.
 
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