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Bayonetta 2 Review Thread - Metacritic: one billion-hit combo, buy it kids

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P

Punished_Snake

Member
Totobeni said:
Good scores.seems to be another one of the good games from Platinum Games.

Platinum Games good games: Bayonetta, Vanquish, Metal Gear Rising

Platinum Games bad games: MadWorld, Anarchy Reigns, Wonderful 101

so with this one PG will have more good games than bad ones. lets hope Korra don't make it a draw again.
Click to expand...

Wonderful 101 is bad? Maybe you are bad at playing it. It's a great game.
 
T

TyrantGuardian

Member
Stardust_Comet said:
Are the multiple crotch shots actually serving a point to make you feel uncomfortable to reflect how Bayonetta is very abrasive as a character
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I mean, this is my personal guess as to what's going on. Or, at least that's how it seems to end up working for most people playing the game. I personally am a big fan of abrasive go-getter types in general, so that speaks positively to me.
 
A

Acid08

Banned
Bold One said:
My post was nothing to do with female empowerment, the idea that there aren't as many female lead roles in games is a different argument and discussion to the point I was making.

You don't need to be female to have a discussion about bayonetta nor do you have to be a feminist to have a 'progressive' perspective. Power fantasy is not gender specific, while Bayo might resonate more with female gamers doesn't mean male gamers can't have a blast with it and also feel powerful while playing with the character.

It is no one's place to say what is and is not empowering to anyone subset or class of people.
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You're super duper wrong about power fantasies not being gender specific. Strong male characters are made for men to live through. The target audience of a lot of games is that 14-34 male demographics and that characters in these games reflect that. They are absolutely there to appeal to a specifically male power fantasy.

You're right that men can be part of the discussion. But isn't it weird to you that the female perspective is only the tiniest bit present in the sea of comments from men? This is a discussion about the sexualization of female game characters and if this specific one is actually empowering or not. How on Earth would we know better than a woman would?
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
Wow, I loved the demo but didn't dream it would get reviews like these. Deserves to do well, can't wait to get the full game.

I take my hat off to you platinum!
 
M

Magic Mushroom

Member
Wonderful 101 is a fantastic game.

Also, has this Guardian article from Rita Jenkins about Bayonetta been posted yet?

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/05/lara-croft-bayonetta-female-games

Bayonetta presents us with a truly empowering woman who’s unapologetically feminine, sexual and confident. Dismissed by many as an objectified fantasy, she is a woman without compromise who refuses to be ashamed of her body, who in one sequence giggles seductively as she grasps the pulsating heart of a heaven-sent deity and asks: “Do you want to touch me?”
Click to expand...
 
K

KojiKnight

Member
One of those reviews in OP are not like the others... And dammit, why Bayo 2 so good? I was hoping to hold off on getting it, but how am I supposed to now with those shiny shiny good numbers?
 
Boss Doggie

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
TheGraykid said:
Bayonetta as a character in simple terms is sex that punches people in the face. Things to consider:

1. Bayonetta doesn't really remedy one of the major problems that people have with female treatment in games, which is why do all of them have to be very heavily sexualised.

2. Bayonetta being created by a woman doesn't mean that the character cannot be in any way sexist.

3. Someone needs to explaim to me how this game is empowering especailly when it displays some of the worst examples of the male gaze in modern video games, I mean "Crotch shot, crotch shot, look at her tits rinse repeat." Is that empowering?! Really?! It just feels fan servicey. Making her beat people up inbetween those moments of fan service doesn't make it less disgusting for me. But I am open to change, make me understand.
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What you're doing is merely looking at her through a glance.

Her whole persona is defined as she doesn't care what you or others think, as she has her own destiny. She likes to flaunt herself because she knows she's that good.

Also, I've seen many people comment that she's apparently unattractive due to her odd proportions. How can that be a male gaze? That's like drawing a stickman with boobs, zoom on them, and call it a male gaze.

What you are doing (and essentially many people) is that you are looking at her without context.
 
N

Nibiru

Banned
Arthur Gies is a next level click bait artist. He has forged a persona that polarizes and trolls gamers and doesn't actually believe what he is writing. He is just a very clever dude.
 
Y

Yabberwocky

Member
I've had this account sitting here for years (and for so long that I don't remember why I picked this stupid username in the first place), and while somewhat props to Arthur Gies for discussing female objectification, nothing brings forth my ire more than dismissing Bayonetta as cheap fanservice. What I love to bits about Bayonetta is that - intentionally or not - Platinum made one of the most positive female characters in gaming. Bayo gets my big ol' feminist stamp of approval. The only real problem with Bayonetta is not the character herself, but that she exists in such a lacking female character vacuum. After the edge-blunting of both Samus and Lara, she's the only female power fantasy character in gaming we've got left - and it just so happens that the only female power fantasy character we have left is an incredibly sexual one. (My comfort thought is that Bayonetta is the most impressive power fantasy in gaming, regardless of gender. Punting a god into the sun with her hair, when will your faves ever?)

Playing the Bayonetta 2 demo made me remember how much I relished her character, and the freedom that she brings. Bayonetta is a sexual character that is never, ever punished for her enjoyment of her sexuality. How often does that happen in ANY medium? The camera never exploits or objectifies her in a way that she doesn't know about or actively acknowledge. (Negative examples: Poor Miranda from Mass Effect 2, and personally as of this week, Cia's slow camera pan introduction Hyrule Warriors pissed me off.) The best example of this is in Bayonetta 1 when she's in shock over possibly losing Luka. The camera pulls back and focuses on her, and respects her. Her emotional reaction is more important than that of a cheap fan-service shot. (Looking at you, ME2.) When Jeanne is grabbed in the B2 demo, Bayonetta immediately stops teasing, and the camera once again respects her. My favourite Luka moment with her in B1 is when they're with Cereza, and Bayonetta runs off to protect THEM - and you don't doubt for a moment she's beyond capable of it. I remember sitting there slackjawed, as it was such a rare thing to see, regardless of the medium. Bayonetta's relationship with Jeanne is wonderful, too, and passes the Bechdel Test with flying colours. Their relationship is hilarious, but touching, and somewhere between BFFs and badass rivals. I love Jeanne herself, from her to design to her foul mouth to her badass motorcycle. Seeing them fight side by side again in the new demo was amazing. I will absolutely say that Jeanne getting demon fingered while be dragged to hell was cheap and crap, though. What the hell, Platinum?

Bayonetta is also treated with respect in gameplay. Her attack reactions outside of taunts are NEVER sexual, they're gruff and guttural, and always realistic. She gives a punch, she takes a punch. (Negative example: Vanille in FFXIII. I'm pretty sure taking a step would give that girl an orgasm.) Bayonetta isn't some delicate waif that holds back on strength to be appealing. When's she's using Shuraba, she's going to gut you with a goddamn sword. When she's using Kilgore, she's blowing the shit out of things with giant guns attached to her arms and legs, and most likely destroying balance on the leaderboards in the process. When she's using Durga, her attacks are strong and weighty. When she's skating around with Odette, she's elegant as hell. Platinum respects her character in cutscenes, and they respect her in gameplay. Her voice actress casting in both English and Japanese has also been incredible, as she's no-nonsense, confident and snarky no matter what the language. She's not a cutesty sexualised girl, she's a grown woman with her control of her own sexuality and a relatable disgust for cockroaches.

(Obvious shout out Shimazaki and her incredible designs on all the characters, especially Bayonetta herself. It's fascinating to have a female character that was designed to be sexual, that was then filtered a female fashion gaze. Even Luka and Rodin didn't escape it!)

Tear into CD Projekt Red, to Vanillaware, to Koei Tecmo and Team Ninja, for their treatment of sexuality and women. Tear into those bloody cinematic designers for Mass Effect 2 and 3 that thought Miranda's ass was more important than her face and respecting her character. Platinum's not close to perfect, but if you're going to have a female character with sexuality, the Bayonetta team gets a hell of a lot closer to the vast majority at getting it right.

I know we've only seen snippets of it, but GODDAMN to that opening scene where she's walking along in her fur lined dress in her Louis Vuitton heels, and she doesn't even flinch at kicking a plane. Playing the demo, too, I'd forgotten how much of a freeing rush it was to play as her. There's no one like Bayonetta. These high review scores-! Bring it on, Nintendo!

(Hi, I have passionate feelings about video game characters that use their hair to beat the shit out of angels. I know, I know, Junior Members with opinions and a semi-thread derail, yuck. Kudos to Monocle above who said the same thing, but better, and with a lot less words.)
 
S

Stardust_Comet

Neo Member
Boguester said:
Definitely true. Although it's quite rare to have anything less than a "very attractive" human protagonist of either gender. Not talking about non-human or stylized characters, but rather reasonably realistic designs. When was the last time you played a game like that with an ugly or even plain protagonist? (Not including character creation). Nathan Drake, Kratos, Joel from TLoU, both Dantes but especially new Dante, Booker DeWitt, etc. etc. Of course it's still more extreme on average for female representations.

Jimquisition had an episode a while back about that in fact.
Click to expand...

Oh that is definitely true. I don't pretend to act like males get off without being sexualised either. Pretty seems to be the standard of making a character "important" or "sympathetic". However, for some reason, a pretty male being sexualised is always considered more okay than for that of a female. It's like, people feel the need to point out it's happening to a female to the point that's the only thing people will talk about when it comes to that game. But if it's happening to a male in another game, it's "okay" because females deserve this right to ogle some abs after how objectified they've been?

I guess it's not really wrong to tell gaming companies "we get it, you're sexualising females, but stop it and try to put some variety in like you do with males" otherwise they won't stop it. But does get to be a pain when people stop looking at the main character as a character and immediately think of them as "female" so they must find any tiny thing that's "offensive" to women to complain about.

Edit: Should quickly add: I do not think the people here who are uncomfortable with the crotch shots in Bayonetta are being a "pain". I understand why it can be taken the wrong way. This was more a general statement on any female character.
 
S

Shengar

Member
Considering the track record of Platinum Games, this score is definitely legit, congrats to them!
But it gonna ended up bombed anyway ;__;
 
Boss Doggie

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Totobeni said:
Platinum Games bad games: Wonderful 101
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Disneys-Hades-Burns-His-Cigar-With-Firey-Anger.gif
 
Alx

Alx

Member
Boss Doggie said:
What you're doing is merely looking at her through a glance.

Her whole persona is defined as she doesn't care what you or others think, as she has her own destiny. She likes to flaunt herself because she knows she's that good.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Even if she's oversexualized in extreme ways, it is meant to picture her as an "alpha female", she's always the dominant one, toying with men (at least in the first game, I can't speak for the second).
I think a good example of those (bad taste included) is this cutscene :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UiDv5Y8J7Ks#t=158

There's also the one that I couldn't find, where she starts calling Luka "Cheshire" and teases him all along.
I suppose many men are even more disturbed by such sexualization when it's more castrating than arousing. :D
 
S

Shengar

Member
Stardust_Comet said:
Oh that is definitely true. I don't pretend to act like males get off without being sexualised either. Pretty seems to be the standard of making a character "important" or "sympathetic". However, for some reason, a pretty male being sexualised is always considered more okay than for that of a female. It's like, people feel the need to point out it's happening to a female to the point that's the only thing people will talk about when it comes to that game. But if it's happening to a male in another game, it's "okay" because females deserve this right to ogle some abs after how objectified they've been?

I guess it's not really wrong to tell gaming companies "we get it, you're sexualising females, but stop it and try to put some variety in like you do with males" otherwise they won't stop it. But does get to be a pain when people stop looking at the main character as a character and immediately think of them as "female" so they must find any tiny thing that's "offensive" to women to complain about.
Click to expand...

Actually for male characters, most of the time it's "idealized", not sexualized.
This comic will explain it better than me
 
A

Acid08

Banned
Stardust_Comet said:
Oh that is definitely true. I don't pretend to act like males get off without being sexualised either. Pretty seems to be the standard of making a character "important" or "sympathetic". However, for some reason, a pretty male being sexualised is always considered more okay than for that of a female. It's like, people feel the need to point out it's happening to a female to the point that's the only thing people will talk about when it comes to that game. But if it's happening to a male in another game, it's "okay" because females deserve this right to ogle some abs after how objectified they've been?

I guess it's not really wrong to tell gaming companies "we get it, you're sexualising females, but stop it and try to put some variety in like you do with males" otherwise they won't stop it. But does get to be a pain when people stop looking at the main character as a character and immediately think of them as "female" so they must find any tiny thing that's "offensive" to women to complain about.
Click to expand...
It's because those pretty male characters are there for men. Men live through them. Women never get that because most of the female characters in games are also there to please men.
 
H

Hindle

Banned
It's only a matter of time before Platinum get major success, with one of thier games. It's going to happe, if not with Bayonetta 2.
 
B

Bold One

Member
Acid08 said:
You're super duper wrong about power fantasies not being gender specific. Strong male characters are made for men to live through. The target audience of a lot of games is that 14-34 male demographics and that characters in these games reflect that. They are absolutely there to appeal to a specifically male power fantasy.

You're right that men can be part of the discussion. But isn't it weird to you that the female perspective is only the tiniest bit present in the sea of comments from men? This is a discussion about the sexualization of female game characters and if this specific one is actually empowering or not. How on Earth would we know better than a woman would?
Click to expand...

Oh come on now

why do people still feel the need to bring up the tired - and almost certainly erroneous - assertion that teenage boys are the primary game playing audience?

Assassin's Creed and MGS both have a massive female following and conversely Bayonetta and Tomb Raider have a massive male following.

Your stance or position seems to be of an inately divisive one where there is no convergence of ideas. the fact is female perspective on the issue will probably be as diverse as men's. There have been plenty of female posters in this thread alone. And I suspect the upcoming days and weeks will lend themselves to a lot of articles by women on the matter.



Sexualization and sexuality are two different things. And I imagine different women will view what is 'empowering' differently depending on culture, experiences and natural affinity.
 
T

TyrantGuardian

Member
Acid08 said:
You're right that men can be part of the discussion. But isn't it weird to you that the female perspective is only the tiniest bit present in the sea of comments from men? This is a discussion about the sexualization of female game characters and if this specific one is actually empowering or not. How on Earth would we know better than a woman would?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. There have been several articles posted from female games writers that view Bayonetta as an empowering character. The reason there aren't more is simply because the industry with all it's underlying societal sexist tendencies unfortunately doesn't have more female writers (and I'm not trying to blame the outlets themselves, here).

Also, this isn't just about what women think, it's also about how this game changes (or doesn't) mens' view of females. In that sense, it is VERY relevant for men to discuss this issue as well, as they are a part of what causes sexism in society.
 
S

Stardust_Comet

Neo Member
Shengar said:
Actually for male characters, most of the time it's "idealized", not sexualized.
This comic will explain it better than me
Click to expand...

Well, considering I'm not male, it wouldn't at all be idealised to me XD A guy with a bunch of muscles walking around in a loin cloth or some equivalent to that would be very sexualised in my gaze.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
Acid08 said:
It's because those pretty male characters are there for men. Men live through them. Women never get that because most of the female characters in games are also there to please men.
Click to expand...
That might be largely true for Western games, but it's not as true for Japanese games. Many Japanese character designer try to pander to everybody - fangirls are a big and important audience to them.
 
S

Septic360

Banned
roknin said:
Played the demo.

Saw the scores.

Was already sold before.

I don't know if I can do any better than day zero but I will find a fucking way

tumblr_m71dpyxB1s1r5niulo1_500.gif



Lol wth is going on in this gif? XD
Click to expand...

Lol I literally said out loud 'wtf is that?' then scrolled down and read your comment. Glad I'm not the only one out of the loop lol.

I'm new to Gaf but I have to say, this thread has had me in stitches. Actually in tears in my office at the hilarious gifs on here. Made my Monday morning. Oh and Wii U purchase confirmed.
 
W

wkureservedp2

Member
I don't own a Wii U. I don't care about this game. I didn't read Polygon's review. I don't know who did that review. With all that said, I knew they'd focus entirely on the character's appearance.
 
S

Scoops

Banned
For reference, all of Platinum's meta scores:

Bayonetta 2 - 91 (WiiU)
Bayonetta - 90/87/84 (360/PS3/WiiU)
Vanquish - 84 (360 and PS3)
Metal Gear Rising: Revengance - 83/82/80 (PC/360/PS3)
MadWorld - 81 (Wii)
The Wonderful 101 - 78 (WiiU)
Infinite Space - 75 (DS)
Anarchy Reigns - 73/71 (360/PS3)
 
S

Shengar

Member
Stardust_Comet said:
Well, considering I'm not male, it wouldn't at all be idealised to me XD A guy with a bunch of muscles walking around in a loin cloth or some equivalent to that would be very sexualised in my gaze.
Click to expand...

Different people have different taste, but most of the time it goes like that considering most character designer are male.
But, in Nathan Drake case though, he seems stand in the middle ground.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I feel bad about agreeing with Polygon but the oversexualization of Bayonetta has always been off putting to me, moreso than with other female characters. Maybe it's better in the context of the full game but I have never been able to get past it and I don't know why it's so uniquely upsetting to me with this particular character, maybe it's just the character design. That said I wouldn't penalize the game heavily in a review for it, especially when the game sounds so great.
 
I

immortal-joe

Member
Honestly, they should run an ad ASAP with some choice quotes from those reviews. It's the only chance the game has at any sort of success, which sucks.
 
S

Stardust_Comet

Neo Member
Acid08 said:
It's because those pretty male characters are there for men. Men live through them. Women never get that because most of the female characters in games are also there to please men.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say every game that has a male in it is just for men. I admittedly play JRPG more than Western ones, and there's quite a lot of times where men are pretty much only have personalities built around by what they think females will find endearing or sexy if the game was targetted at a female audience.

But yeah, for a majority of the games, that is otherwise true.
 
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