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[Reishiki]

Sometimes, I wish I could be half the woman Bayonetta is.

Might have to finally get a Wii U...

 

[phanphare]

holy shit, great reviews so far!

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Will there be a thread for Bayonetta 2 that's exempt from gender debates/discussion? I'm a relic from the 90s that doesn't find that side of the modern gaming discourse to be entertaining, enlightening or worthwhile.

I'm assuming that I'm going to have to avoid all NeoGAF B2 threads from now on damnit. It's a shame as the game looks godtier. WiiU purchase incoming.

Just play the game and don't read about it, hardly anyone's ever going to talk about the actual gameplay.

Exclusivity > Sales > Sexism > She almost landed on a poor squirrel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>combat/enemy design, etc...

 

[Hasney]

I've had this account sitting here for years (and for so long that I don't remember why I picked this stupid username in the first place), and while somewhat props to Arthur Gies for discussing female objectification, nothing brings forth my ire more than dismissing Bayonetta as cheap fanservice. What I love to bits about Bayonetta is that - intentionally or not - Platinum made one of the most positive female characters in gaming. Bayo gets my big ol' feminist stamp of approval. The only real problem with Bayonetta is not the character herself, but that she exists in such a lacking female character vacuum. After the edge-blunting of both Samus and Lara, she's the only female power fantasy character in gaming we've got left - and it just so happens that the only female power fantasy character we have left is an incredibly sexual one. (My comfort thought is that Bayonetta is the most impressive power fantasy in gaming, regardless of gender. Punting a god into the sun with her hair, when will your faves ever?)

Playing the Bayonetta 2 demo made me remember how much I relished her character, and the freedom that she brings. Bayonetta is a sexual character that is never, ever punished for her enjoyment of her sexuality. How often does that happen in ANY medium? The camera never exploits or objectifies her in a way that she doesn't know about or actively acknowledge. (Negative examples: Poor Miranda from Mass Effect 2, and personally as of this week, Cia's slow camera pan introduction Hyrule Warriors pissed me off.) The best example of this is in Bayonetta 1 when she's in shock over possibly losing Luka. The camera pulls back and focuses on her, and respects her. Her emotional reaction is more important than that of a cheap fan-service shot. (Looking at you, ME2.) When Jeanne is grabbed in the B2 demo, Bayonetta immediately stops teasing, and the camera once again respects her. My favourite Luka moment with her in B1 is when they're with Cereza, and Bayonetta runs off to protect THEM - and you don't doubt for a moment she's beyond capable of it. I remember sitting there slackjawed, as it was such a rare thing to see, regardless of the medium. Bayonetta's relationship with Jeanne is wonderful, too, and passes the Bechdel Test with flying colours. Their relationship is hilarious, but touching, and somewhere between BFFs and badass rivals. I love Jeanne herself, from her to design to her foul mouth to her badass motorcycle. Seeing them fight side by side again in the new demo was amazing. I will absolutely say that Jeanne getting demon fingered while be dragged to hell was cheap and crap, though. What the hell, Platinum?

Bayonetta is also treated with respect in gameplay. Her attack reactions outside of taunts are NEVER sexual, they're gruff and guttural, and always realistic. She gives a punch, she takes a punch. (Negative example: Vanille in FFXIII. I'm pretty sure taking a step would give that girl an orgasm.) Bayonetta isn't some delicate waif that holds back on strength to be appealing. When's she's using Shuraba, she's going to gut you with a goddamn sword. When she's using Kilgore, she's blowing the shit out of things with giant guns attached to her arms and legs, and most likely destroying balance on the leaderboards in the process. When she's using Durga, her attacks are strong and weighty. When she's skating around with Odette, she's elegant as hell. Platinum respects her character in cutscenes, and they respect her in gameplay. Her voice actress casting in both English and Japanese has also been incredible, as she's no-nonsense, confident and snarky no matter what the language. She's not a cutesty sexualised girl, she's a grown woman with her control of her own sexuality and a relatable disgust for cockroaches.

(Obvious shout out Shimazaki and her incredible designs on all the characters, especially Bayonetta herself. It's fascinating to have a female character that was designed to be sexual, that was then filtered a female fashion gaze. Even Luka and Rodin didn't escape it!)

Tear into CD Projekt Red, to Vanillaware, to Koei Tecmo and Team Ninja, for their treatment of sexuality and women. Tear into those bloody cinematic designers for Mass Effect 2 and 3 that thought Miranda's ass was more important than her face and respecting her character. Platinum's not close to perfect, but if you're going to have a female character with sexuality, the Bayonetta team gets a hell of a lot closer to the vast majority at getting it right.

I know we've only seen snippets of it, but GODDAMN to that opening scene where she's walking along in her fur lined dress in her Louis Vuitton heels, and she doesn't even flinch at kicking a plane. Playing the demo, too, I'd forgotten how much of a freeing rush it was to play as her. There's no one like Bayonetta. These high review scores-! Bring it on, Nintendo!

(Hi, I have passionate feelings about video game characters that use their hair to beat the shit out of angels. I know, I know, Junior Members with opinions and a semi-thread derail, yuck. Kudos to Monocle above who said the same thing, but better, and with a lot less words.)

Really enjoyed this post and hope it gets more recognition, especially as I find Mirandas bloody arse takes up more screen time than her face half the time. I'm sure they were proud of what they sculpted there, but at some point they may as well have made it a plot point and drew a face on it so it's where she talked from and could be where she showed her emotions...

And don't get me started on goddamn Vanille. I may have actually made it past the 20 hour mark where it allegedly gets good if it wasn't for here annoying high orgasmic voice.

Will there be a thread for Bayonetta 2 that's exempt from gender debates/discussion? I'm a relic from the 90s that doesn't find that side of the modern gaming discourse to be entertaining, enlightening or worthwhile.

I'm assuming that I'm going to have to avoid all NeoGAF B2 threads from now on damnit. It's a shame as the game looks godtier. WiiU purchase incoming.

Ask the mods if it can be split from the OT. They do it with other types of discussion previously and it would have some other threat saying THIS TYPE OF DISCUSSION ABOUT THE GAME GOES HERE. Think it would be best, keeping the debate there instead of being a multi-way debate of She's a good thing/she's a bad thing/who cares it's a game/you should care

 

[HawthorneKitty]

Sometimes, I wish I could be half the woman Bayonetta is.

Might have to finally get a Wii U...

Sometimes I wish I could be a woman.

 

[MarkMclovin]

I'm not a Bayonetta fan and couldn't finish the first game but I'm definitely gonna add this to the collection of amazing games for this console.

 

[69wpm]

Gamona 88/100
PC Games 93/100

 

[TheSlySoul]

Nice scores. Sucks that the game is gonna sell like absolute crap.

Reminds me of Zero Escape: Great review scores, crappy sales.
Why do the good games get ignored while Destiny sells buckets? *Sigh*

 

[LevityNYC]

Lol Polygon.

 

[Shengar]

Reminds me of Zero Escape: Great review scores, crappy sales.
Why do the good games get ignored while Destiny sells buckets? *Sigh*

It happens in like, any existing medium ever

 

[Who]

Isn't that the same Polygon reviewer who refused to give SimCity any negative marks for its botched DRM launch issues?

I don't see how anyone can take his reviews seriously. He obviously puts way too much personal opinion and drama into his work for me to take any of his writing seriously. He comes across as a 16 year old kid with a personal point to prove, with that point never being anything actually related to the game's merits.

I mean seriously? That's like taking a point and half off of Gears of War because a reviewer found the over-machoness uncomfortable.

 

[Hindle]

Yusuke Hasimoto........ It's a name to remember.

 

[TheSlySoul]

It happens in like, any existing medium ever

Indeed, it is why we keep getting Adam Sandler films and Michael Bay keeps directing.
I will sulk in a corner now...

 

[Lernaean]

Game is 10/10 for me, from the demo alone.
I hate judging reviews, because i don't really care about them, and they are opinion pieces anyway, but for once more, lol at Polygon for giving it a low score because they saw a pole.
Puritanism is the bane of mankind.

 

[OryoN]

Game Informer

"Though I was disappointed by some of the familiarity..."

This one just jumped out at me as a pretty weird complaint to throw at a sequel.

Very good reviews all around. Although, some reviews seem to have docked a fairly significant amount of points even after highly praising the game as a whole. Huh? Anyway... HYPED!

 

[ViviOggi]

Really enjoyed this post and hope it gets more recognition, especially as I find Mirandas bloody arse takes up more screen time than her face half the time. I'm sure they were proud of what they sculpted there, but at some point they may as well have made it a plot point and drew a face on it so it's where she talked from and could be where she showed her emotions...

And don't get me started on goddamn Vanille. I may have actually made it past the 20 hour mark where it allegedly gets good if it wasn't for here annoying high orgasmic voice.

It's a nice post for sure, skimming over the last pages I was actually going to quote it as well seeing that it got ignored completely.

 

[Acid08]

I agree on the first part, but I completely disagree with you on the second. Would you care to explain why you think so rather than asserting a "full stop"? I'm genuinely curious.

Alright it's 5am here so I'll attempt to put something at least a bit coherent out there.

Bayonetta is a female main character, that's pretty unique in the gaming world. When discussing sexualization of female characters(and really female sexuality in general) I would much rather hear from women because they can actually express a point of view that is wholly unique. Women who play games have probably seen countless examples of blatant sexism and sexualization across hundreds of game. Men can of course recognize this too but it actually doesn't affect us the same way at all. Women have to constantly put up with the bimbo characters with completely unrealistic proportions. Or the completely wasted potential of female character ex: Miranda from ME having her ass be the focus instead of her character(thank you fidelio for that perfect example). Women barely ever get a reprieve from this it's so prevalent in games. The quality female characters are pretty few and far between.

So when a character like Bayonetta comes along that may be challenging these conventions I absolutely want to know more about it from their perspective. Men don't have to deal with that kind of thing, we have thousands of strong male characters that get to be the hero. We don't have the same perspective on this thing. Men see Bayonetta and automatically think "whoa she kicks ass, great female character!" Basically because she's different from the norm that she's automatically better. That isn't enough though, it deserves more critique than that. And I firmly believe that is a critique that women are way better suited to give because it's so specific to their particular perspective on their representation in games. What Bayonetta means to them is way more important than what any dude has to say on the subject.

 

[Stardust_Comet]

And don't get me started on goddamn Vanille. I may have actually made it past the 20 hour mark where it allegedly gets good if it wasn't for here annoying high orgasmic voice.

Dammit all, even just reading her name is reminding me of her orgasmic moans. This is why I do not play with her ever once I got to the point where I could choose who to fight with.

Seriously, who the fuck's idea was it to make her sound like that? Square Enix is just trying to make the player feel dirty while playing.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Game Informer


This one just jumped out at me as a pretty weird complaint to throw at a sequel.

Very good reviews all around. Although, some reviews seem to have docked a fairly significant amount of points even after highly praising the game as a whole. Huh? Anyway... HYPED!

It's a fair critique but it's to be expected with any sequel.

Very rarely does a sequel completely turn the source material on its head or have revolutionary changes, they are usually evolutions.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Honestly was expecting 11/10s

Pre-order cancelled, get kamiya directing next time you pack of flunkies

 

[LowParry]

After all the thrills of The Last of Us, and scare me shitless Alien Isolation, I think a good sit down with Bayo 2 will be very welcoming. Reviews are looking really good so I'll probably pick this up in the next month or so. The backlog must be cleared.

 

[Xeroblade]

Remember boy's we need to buy multiple copies to show platinum we need a Bayo 3.

 

[jon bones]

Will there be a thread for Bayonetta 2 that's exempt from gender debates/discussion? I'm a relic from the 90s that doesn't find that side of the modern gaming discourse to be entertaining, enlightening or worthwhile.

I'm assuming that I'm going to have to avoid all NeoGAF B2 threads from now on damnit. It's a shame as the game looks godtier. WiiU purchase incoming.

*cringe*

 

[Hasney]

Remember boy's we need to buy multiple copies to show platinum we need a Bayo 3.

Waiting on my lottery win so I can have a Scrooge McDuck vault of them to swim through.

 

[phanphare]

Remember boy's we need to buy multiple copies to show platinum we need a Bayo 3.

copies for everyone this Holiday!


it's not Christmas without Bayonetta

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Remember boy's we need to buy multiple copies to show platinum we need a Bayo 3.

Non Wii U owner here, paid for a copy to give to my friend who's going through a rough time at the moment. He loved the first one

 

[Lernaean]

Remember boy's we need to buy multiple copies to show platinum we need a Bayo 3.

Got 3, am i good?

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Non Wii U owner here, paid for a copy to give to my friend who's going through a rough time at the moment. He loved the first one

That's a true friend, what a nice gesture.

 

[StuBurns]

After all the thrills of The Last of Us, and scare me shitless Alien Isolation, I think a good sit down with Bayo 2 will be very welcoming. Reviews are looking really good so I'll probably pick this up in the next month or so. The backlog must be cleared.

The Evil Within and Bayonetta 2, back to back! You can backlog when you're dead.

 

[Ban Puncher]

Remember boy's we need to buy multiple copies to show platinum we need a Bayo 3.

I have a limited leather bound edition and a regular-ass edition on pre-order. I may gift a couple of standards to friends and family too.

I am doing my part.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Polygon making sure to try to appeal to the zeitgeist by bitching about sexuality. What a pathetic establishment.

I'm glad it's getting good reviews because the gameplay is fantastic and PG deserved recognition.

 

[SkeptiMism]

Will there be a thread for Bayonetta 2 that's exempt from gender debates/discussion? I'm a relic from the 90s that doesn't find that side of the modern gaming discourse to be entertaining, enlightening or worthwhile.

I'm assuming that I'm going to have to avoid all NeoGAF B2 threads from now on damnit. It's a shame as the game looks godtier. WiiU purchase incoming.

You think the discussion about the game has been good otherwise? There's hardly been that much of any gameplay talk about it. It's mostly
1. sales (with people talking about how it bombs and then people countering that)
2. how good the game looks (with people being enthusiastic about the game and spamming gifs saying they can't wait it, but then fail to actually talk about the most important aspect of the game)

Whether you like it or not, sexualisation and a variety of social issues are things in games. If you don't want to talk about such things, then you probably shouldn't be at least in this forum (if you feel like having to skim over those posts is such a chore at least). This thread has talk about it as there is a review criticizing that aspect of the game, and the thread is to talk about criticism of the game, whether that's good or bad criticism.

That said, people in the OT will probably concentrate mostly on the gameplay.

 

[Auto-Reply]

Remember boy's we need to buy multiple copies to show platinum we need a Bayo 3.

But I'm not rich... I can't afford to buy more than 4 copies at once a month

 

[bequietdrive]

Really happy to see this game getting the stellar review scores it deserves. Hopefully these scores will pique enough people's interests that the sales are decent.

 

[Green Yoshi]

I hate to say it but Gies is spot on.

This is one step too far.

Perhaps for Alabama. ;-)

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Really happy to see this game getting the stellar review scores it deserves. Hopefully these scores will pique enough people's interests that the sales are decent.

What did you score it???

 

[Hindle]

You know even if Bayonetta 2 underperforms, I still think we will get a third game. A Bayonetta 3 would be an excellent launch title for Nintendos next hardware, be it handheld or console.

 

[Lernaean]

That said, people in the OT will probably concentrate mostly on the gameplay.

Amen to this.

 

[Stardust_Comet]

You know even if Bayonetta 2 underperforms, I still think we will get a third game. A Bayonetta 3 would be an excellent launch title for Nintendos next hardware, be it handheld or console.

Hoping so. It's already hurt sales for the fact that only the WiiU is giving this game a chance. PG needs every cent they get to put towards a Bayo3.

 

[The Boat]

Here's my Portuguese review:
http://jogos.zwame.pt/review/bayonetta-2/

Platinum Games did the unthinkable and made a game even better than the original; loaded with humor, sexuality, action and bigger than life setpieces, Bayonetta 2 is the pinnacle of its genre, an absolutely brilliant action game that will be hard to overcome.

10/10

 

[The Technomancer]

Not surprised at Polygons review, even if I think I'm going to disagree with them. Part of the problem is, from what I've seen, Bayonetta games do suffer from an inconsistency. Character animation, voice acting, and character design are all communicating a hyper-sexualized character who is entirely in control of their own sexuality. However the camera movements do then undo some of that by reverting back to almost voyeuristic male gaze swooping and zooming. I've tried to figure out how to reconcile that with the more positive sexuality on display in every other aspect of the character and I don't think I really can, it really does seem like one aspect that's not on the same page as the rest. However the Polygon review is frustrating because I feel like it misses that point, while I'd like to think Gies has his heart in the right place, I think he is too quick to jump on "sexy = bad" at the moment.

What's fascinating about Bayonetta is that she works as a character because she's so much more then "a sexy female who kicks ass". Out pop-culture, geek pop-culture specifically, is littered with that archetype and its still done for the favor of a largely male audience. She even (moreso in the first game then what I've seen of the second) has a dominatrix like affect going on, and that is (often) the literal definition of submissive indulgence from a position of apparent dominance. But the way she carries herself and the way that she acts and reacts communicates a character who is in complete ownership of their actions and their appearance, something that is very often missing when it comes to "sexy kick-ass heroines"

 

[Hindle]

Hoping so. It's already hurt sales for the fact that only the WiiU is giving this game a chance. PG needs every cent they get to put towards a Bayo3.

It would be a great way for both parties to break even as well. I mean think about it, Bayo 3 would sell well as a launch title.

 

[UrbanRats]

I've only played the demo of the first game so I'm freely admitting that I do not have all the information necessary to reach a full conclusion. Just as an outsider who has mostly seen trailers, it's actually made me want to play the games less.

But hey, I enjoyed Lolipop Chainsaw so I can be won over.

Other way around for me.
I played only the demo, but i really enjoyed the character and general style a lot.
Her voice actress seems pretty brilliant, too.

Also, i played a little of Lollipop Chainsaw and hated it, lol.

So yeah, direct opposite i guess.

 

[Orniletter]

Remember boy's we need to buy multiple copies to show platinum we need a Bayo 3.

Waiting on my lottery win so I can have a Scrooge McDuck vault of them to swim through.

Non Wii U owner here, paid for a copy to give to my friend who's going through a rough time at the moment. He loved the first one

Got 3, am i good?

I have a limited leather bound edition and a regular-ass edition on pre-order. I may gift a couple of standards to friends and family too.

I am doing my part.

But I'm not rich... I can't afford to buy more than 4 copies at once a month

You are doing Jubileus´ work . I´m in for a Special and First print edition as well.

 

[Grief.exe]

Ate they mentioning the value proposition of Bayo 1's inclusion in the reviews?

 

[Mlatador]

 

[Trago]

Loving all this critical acclaim! I need to time travel to the 24th of this month and play this game already.

 

[Spyware]

Part of the problem is, from what I've seen, Bayonetta games do suffer from an inconsistency. Character animation, voice acting, and character design are all communicating a hyper-sexualized character who is entirely in control of their own sexuality. However the camera movements do then undo some of that by reverting back to almost voyeuristic male gaze swooping and zooming.

this is my trouble with the series. I don't dislike Bayonetta as a character, I dislike the way they show her off. I just can't stand it. I try to see it the way other people do, to be able to buy the games and enjoy them but it's just too hard :/
This is also what all my fellow female friends think. People always believe we hate Bayonetta as a character but that's not it.

 

[Slixshot]

Woah... just woke up to see find these reviews. Just WOAH.

 

[Stardust_Comet]

It would be a great way for both parties to break even as well. I mean think about it, Bayo 3 would sell well as a launch title.

This would work out if they have a deal already in the works with Nintendo for the third game. Which naturally I doubt they'd tell us about it until the next gen console.

But it'd definitely turn out favourably for them if this turns into a sort of "Heavenly Sword" deal like when the PS3 first came out. The earlier you get that advertising out as a new game gen is coming out, the more it's going to stick in people's minds that they should check this game out.